View Full Version : Listen Out!! Please

Heading 365
21st Sep 2001, 21:13
To save all us ATCO's from having to change our trousers could you please listen out on the RT, in the present climate it gives us the jitters when we get no response after several calls.

If you don't you might get some unexpected practice at formation flying !

H 365

Vlad the Impaler
21st Sep 2001, 22:03
Apart from the sphincter factor, nothing pi**es me off more than having to call somebody three times when I'm busy. Cut's down thinking time when there isn't any spare. Please Try.

Red Spitfire Driver
22nd Sep 2001, 00:56
Here, here.
A couple of weeks ago I worked an (ex) BA 757 going from Heathrow to the USA. As a G- callsign (to be scrapped?), flown by a Yank.
After numerous calls I got so frustrated with him I told him his registration/callsign and insisted he put it on a bit of paper and stick it to the dashboard !! After that, he replied every time ! Magic

22nd Sep 2001, 06:54
Hey, I make no apology that SOMETIMES I do miss your calls in busy airspace....WE get busy up there too you know, but one of us would come on the RT after the second call or so at best. I know having to call up mulitple times is not very professional on the pilots part really. But you and I make mistakes sometimes and it's not as if ATC don't **** pilots off too at times....go easy.

But yes....we'll certainly TRY harder...so let's make up and be friends :cool:

Heading 365
22nd Sep 2001, 21:51
Hi QNH1013

I agree we must all try harder especially at this time, and no apology expected, as you say we all miss calls but if nobody calls you for some time or it seems quite in what is normally busy airspace say something ( the worst you can do is wake us up ;) ) it might stop us biting our nails.

Friends :)

H 365

E cam
22nd Sep 2001, 23:50
Fair point, but it works both ways!

"Sorry, I was just on the landline"

In the drink
23rd Sep 2001, 15:58
As a person who has worked both sides of the fence with numerous years of experience now in both fields, I have to say that the piloting world has no idea about the workload of controllers. In short the loading on controllers working a busy sector is simply 100’s % more than at any sharp end of an aircraft. I have to say, I’ve seen flying colleagues do things and ask for stuff which makes my blood boil, i.e. asking for weather avoiding just to cut a corner; or trying to force a point over the R.T. when the ATCO is busy, crazy unprofessional behaviour I know and very sad. The only explanation I have is metal poisoning i.e. gold, silver or platinum on shoulders going to their heads.

I would advocate a policy that all pilots should visit a centre or even get a blast on an ATC sim. Throw in a few emergencies; incorrect read backs, similar call signs taking the wrong call, aircraft not answering their own calls etc would do the trick. I know without a doubt they would be shocked at the knock-on effects on the big picture!!!…and how quickly things happen. I know it would concentrate their minds in the interests of self-preservation….. Did I hear a “too right from the ATCO’s!”

If anyone remembers me as an ATCO when they didn’t respond, I was the one who would say when they eventually read back their instructions “Audience participation is greatly appreciated, Thank-you!”…. It had the desired effect! However not in MATS part 1, 2 or even approved by SRG!

In balance and from the other side of the fence the only time I’ve seen a high’ish workload is an engine failure shortly after take-off close to max TOW. A quick call to ATC then get on with the job is all that’s required, but in general flying is a non-event! Again from the flying side of things, some companies RTF failure procedures insist a/c not to leave CAS. They say the insurance people don’t like it, which obviously contravenes the ANO, RLCE procedure. I hear you say when was the last time someone had an RTF failure. Yep you’re right, usually finger trouble or a PPL. As far the ATCO’s in the U.S. were concerned, for a few minutes on the 11th they probably thought they had four RTF failures until they and the rest of the civilised world discovered it was more sinister. :eek: :eek: :eek:

23rd Sep 2001, 17:08
In The Drink,
We have nightmares about RT failures in UK (London) airspace. To put it nicely, the procedure is not user friendly.
I have actually been to different ATC units, thought nothing much of it, the guys sitting with their feet on the table, sipping coffee, and chatting happily with the "herd". No disrespect, I recognize a good ATCO when I hear one, and in UK they are as good as they get.
Flying is a non event, most of the time, when it's done by properly trained professionals. Thats the way it should be. I personally would rather have an engine failure after T/O with a heavy aircraft (as long as there are no obstacles). Easier to control.
Is this actually leading somewhere? Not really.

24th Sep 2001, 02:21
the sooner we can persuade nigel that the airways are not his own and that it is a good idea to listen before he tramples on us poor minions the better - PLEASE LISTEN B4 YOU TRANSMIT there are others around!

Hand Solo
24th Sep 2001, 02:33
Well the Nigel bashing didn't take long! As a Nigel I'd like to point out that today I was repeatedly stepped on by Jersey, Crossair, an Iberia who wouldn't answer any calls (if you were doing a right orbit south of MID then you know who you are!), KLM and numerous others, so in the interest of fairness can I expect t-bag to slag them off as well! ;)

24th Sep 2001, 07:39
Can't agree with you more on : LISTEN OUT FIRST before you TRANSMIT especially after the first switch of frequency.
Heading 365,
We are constantly putting in our effort in listening out ... Cheers

24th Sep 2001, 10:00
:rolleyes: Oh dear, here we go again.

Why can't you pilots simply admit that we controllers are more superior than you ;)

[Sits back, feet on console, coffee in one hand, blonde in the other; gives meaningless vector to one of 25 aircraft on frequency......]

24th Sep 2001, 13:31
As a TC Controller I would like to say 'Thank You ' to all the pilots who give us correct calls when departing from the LTMA, it is a huge help being given actual level so that we can check your transponder. U. K. pilots are normally very good at this,espeacialy Nigel(BAW),BMA and other KK +LL based airlines.

24th Sep 2001, 20:17
Flying an aircraft is a non event hey?
Have you ever flown on your own, in and out of IFR in a busy traffic area with turbulence and noone to help you out with radios, changes in approach or runway in use. Or maybe you have forgotten what it is like to fly a non multi crew a/c.
Sweeping statements serve no purpose other than to irritate all those that read them.
And yes I do appreciate a good ATC service, just not a comparison between two very different jobs.
......flying IFR with no autopilot for 2 or more hours cannot be compared to working a high workload stint of 20 minutes in front of a radar screen.

24th Sep 2001, 21:18
At MAN/EGCC, we get "stepped on" transmissions at least 10 times per shift. [7am-10pm] Nights only 2-5 times :D
I [stand to be corrected] think that the scenario goes like this....(on 'some' airlines). Captain sits down, and calls Ground, on F/Os headset...Result is cr*p tx, and NO rx, until mistook is found. OR headset on and talk first, listen later.
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Red Spitfire Driver
25th Sep 2001, 00:39
Hand Solo
You were tranfered to me on TMA. That Iberia was a real pain. Hurn sector asked if I would take him high - no says I. I was a bit busy !!!
Anyway we have a Pilot/Controller play day on Thursday - maybe you should come along to one. We let you pilot chaps have a go at Controlling - on the simulator !! Then some time plugged in on radar, watching what its like at our end.
I will be 'instructing' on Thursday - so if any Ppruners are there, say hello.

25th Sep 2001, 03:30
I must apologise to the Lufthansa Pilot I gave a huge bollocking to this afternoon for not listening out, after trying to turn him 3 times. However, you wouldn't know who you are, you hadn't checked in yet!!!!!!!! :( I have found everyone trying to make an effort, and am finding its more the ATC transmissions stepped on during a busy spell. I even got a 'sorry, stepped on you there' from a BA to EGKK and not the whole ramble again until I addressed him, that I liked as I had more important things to say first.

On the bad side though, we're not getting so much fortune 'Over+Out' as the TMA, you jockeys must report cleared or cruise level on first contact to Area AND read back the cleared route when passed. Even BAW and BMA, we know you know it and fly it every other day, but you MUST say it. It seems a few of you today haven't been around for a bit as the new standing agreements introduced a few weeks back caused at least one every session to come back curious.

But, we all make mistakes on both sides, just be man enough to admit it, and cheers to all who help out in rectifying calm.

In the drink
25th Sep 2001, 15:33

What’s with the hostility?

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Hand Solo
26th Sep 2001, 01:58
Red Spitfire Driver - love to come along on Thursday, how do I get details?

Area Juliet
26th Sep 2001, 02:48
Sorry but I have to agree with Sprinting Rabbit regarding single pilot IFR (although I realise that there aren't that many of us left around nowadays and you may forget we are out there). I do try to be prompt and answer when you ask, but inevitably we do have a higher workload than the two crew boys and replies may suffer because we are also doing the flying etc. Have to say though that I rarely have a problem because I'm so focused on the job, no one to talk to but you guys!!!! It gets lonely single crew, plus I'm always happy to know that my radios are working. Never could understand those radio failure procedures no matter how often I read them for the 500 airports that I visit.

26th Sep 2001, 03:14
Most of the boys, even more the gals, sitting on the ground in the UK are A-OK! But comparing jobs?? Sorry, Don't agree. Yes pushing buttons is very easy, but not all pilots enjoy that luxury ...
Out of curiosity, how long is the shift for a controller @ EGLL ?
Thanks guys, keep up the good work & no more BIG holds, please ?

I'll have a polished Magnum please :eek: :(

Area Juliet
26th Sep 2001, 03:28
Oh,.... forgot to mention I have no idea what the workload of an atc'er is, so I obviously can't comment about workloads. However I certainly wouldn't like to have to deal with as much as you guys do. Keep up the good work but forgive me my sins.

26th Sep 2001, 13:22
Abnormal load.....

Morning 0700-1400
Afternoon 1400-2200
Night 2200-0700

Hand Solo....

Try ringing the LATCC wtichboard on 01895 445566 and ask for the tarining section and they might be able to help. Sorry - have no more numbers here. You might get a canx.