Logging second-pilot time?

[engineoff]

Am interested in how second-pilot time can be logged on smaller onshore helicopters
I was recently told that if the aircraft is certified as single pilot, then the second pilot can log nothing, not even P2. Is this right, even on the more complex twins such as AS355, A109 or S76?
I have been considering a rating on a twin a/c in the hope of getting some second pilot experience. It hardly seems worthwhile if I get no written or logged evidence of having completed it that can be shown to future employers.

On a similar note; what is the requirement for being base and lined on two pilot jobs. Do both pilots need to be b&l or is it just the commander? If the 'two pilot' flight is merely a customer request then I assume the second pilot does not require to be currently b&l?

[212man]

It is not correct to say that you can not log P2 time in all a/c types certificated for single pilot operation, but it will be for some. The S76, AS365 and B212 are examples of types that are normally operated two pilot by many operators and as such would qualify. I don't have a definative answer, but I would say that types such as the AS355 and A109 would not. In any case, I very much doubt that any operator would use two pilots on a/c that small as it would prove prohibitive in terms of lost payload and extra operating cost.

It's a strange situation, and in many ways is changing with the introduction of JARs. Another anomoly is that the CAA will allow S76 (two pilot)time towards MCC exemtion, but not time in a Bandeirante or Twin Otter!

A co-pilot acting as a member of the flight crew must be line checked and Operator Proficiency Checked (OPC has replaced the base check).

I assume you are a CPL(H) holder? A PPL holder can't fly public transport anyway. I am a little puzzled by the query; do you have an offer of P2 time if you pay for a rating? If not, as I said above, buying a 355 rating will be of no value in loking for a P2 position, and a 76 or 365 rating would be rather expensive to say the least.

You may well find that Scotia are looking for newly qualified CPL(H) holders to fill co-pilot positions. If so, that would be a far more likely scenario for building time (700 ish hours a year).

Good luck, in any case!

------------------
Another day in paradise

[ShyTorque]

The AS-355 is not a "complex" type according to UK regulations. It is a "simple" type. I don't know of anyone operating it 2 pilot.

[yogibear]

Hi there ,

When I did my licence in South Africa , I was able to log hours as second pilot as long as my instructor was flying with me and that was on R22's.After that the only way of getting hours was to share with a buddy ( I know this is a bit off the subject) we would hire a machine and then fly out for a half hour and then change in so doing getting in at least a half hours flying for half the price.....

Now being an instructor I can log the flying time with the pupil.....thats in africa anyway...strange huh ?

The bear....

------------------
Chopper pilots do it vertically :-)

[engineoff]

212; yes do have CPL. Just thinking of a way to get to get some multi engine experience in the onshore sector.

I realise that usually the AS355 and 109 are single pilot operated, however I believe from speaking to a number of operators, that twin crew are often requested from the customer for particular jobs. I was just trying to work out if it would be possible to log any time 'in the other seat' if I was type rated and OPC'd on the a/c type.

Is the S76 the same? Offshore it is flown two crew; onshore often only one. Is this a specification or operational reason? If the S76 co-pilot on a rig can log time, why not a second pilot flying an onshore sector?

[helidrvr]

engineoff, you may have heard about the American FAA rule whereby two pilots who fly an aircraft which is certificated for single pilot flight (including the SK76, B212 etc.) may each log their respective time actually at the controls as PIC.

[solari]

I don't know anything about helicopter ops, but hope the following fixed-wing experience may(?) be of some help.
Before getting my ATPL, I built twin hours by flying with in a corporate KingAir. They were single-crew ops and also Public Transport so I couldn't fly/log on the PT sectors - although the experience was useful.
However, one sector was often empty and, with the company's agreement, it was flown as a private flight which I could fly with my then PPL Twin/IMC/Night ratings.
I obtained the CAA's agreement that I could log that time as P1 provided that no-one else was logging the same hours.
It obviously needed the cooperation of the "real" Captain giving up those hours but, as she was about to become my wife, that helped. (Some of the older pilots were also happy to help because they didn't need the hours.)
This was quite a few years ago - I don't know if it would still work. If it does, you need to find a friendly/older pilot who doesn't need to build hours, and a company who will put you on their insurance policy.
Before you spend money on a Twin Rating, check with the CAA that it's still permissible. The regs may have changed.

[mrfish]

In my experience all companies and militaries have differing policies on this issue.
If you are qualified as 1st Pilot on type, then you can log all flying as such...but you cannot log it as PIC (assuming your national logbook has seperate columns for it.
2nd pilot time is really only time your hands are not on the controls...as such it adds to your TT, but otherwise is worthless.
In short, if you have a rating log 1st pilot.

Some S76's are only registered as 2 pilot IFR. Therefore, off-shore, or when anticipating that part of the flight may be conducted IFR, then 2 pilots are required..if not you're by yourself.

I appreciate your question...as I said a every outfit Ive seen does it sligtly differently.....2nd pilot in an R22; you're pulling my leg!!

[212man]

Bottom line, as in all these type matters, to get a written answer from FCL at the CAA, as they will ultimately determine the validity of claimed experience for the puposes of licencing.

I would say there are plenty of anomolies stroke loop holes at the moment. However, comma, I would suggest cease thinking in terms of R22 or AS355 types for 2nd pilot time. It isn't worth it, and will not help one iota with future employment; appart from displaying iniative (doesn't help with insurance requirements though).

One assumes you are talking UK/JAR requirements.

You must talk to the sort of operators that use these types though to get real, down to earth answers. Phone Burman or PDG or PAS or Lynton, to see what they have to say about it all.

I hope they conccur, but wish you all the best.

------------------
Another day in paradise

[bladeslap]

Engineoff the concept of co-pilot time is attractive to many but be warned the FAA procedure of 'split' claim for PIC with two qualified pilots onboard will not count under JAR.

The closest equivilent is the Student Pilot in Command (SPIC) which has appeared with the advent of JAR regs, most agree this is of little value.

As to the 'complex' types defined as requiring a two crew minima under JAR speak to an expert who is conversant with JAR FCL 2 (Heli regs) as these are defined within. In general, the larger (7 pax +) types used almost exclusively for offshore support require a minimum crew of two and as noted by 212man OPC also required for any 'co-pilot'.

Just curious but your desire for multiengine time is bacause? If it is to assist your passage under a JAR ATPL(H) remember the JAR minima also requires defined IR time in addition to the defined multi crew/multi engine.

A complex subject as all have implied!

------------------
Proper Prior Planning Prevents P*** Poor Performance........Do it right, seek advice!

[offshoreigor]

This is a recurring question throughout the industry. As far as I can see, the question of logging second pilot time usually only comes up on fixed wing or military. Now, if your sitting in the left seat, then it qualifies as first pilot on certain types. Any of the following would qualify in most countries:

SK61,SK76,BH212/412, Super Puma or any other similar Medium or Heavy. Light/Single engine helicopters do NOT qualify as they are only considered as logable time when with an instructer i.e. Dual


Hope this helps!

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[rotorque]

In Australia, a pilot can be certified as an ICUS pilot (In Command Under Supervision) within a company. This requires an entry in the companies operations manual before the pilot can supervise another pilot operationaly. This certificate must also stipulate what type of aircraft he/she is able to supervise in. What it basically means is that you can jump in a light single or a heavy twin with an ICUS pilot and log it as 'in command under supervision' so long as the other bloke is certified on the type of machine as an ICUS pilot.
ICUS time is classed as command - but you never feel as if it is because you have this bloke beside you who can make decisions. Also we usualy have a seperate column in the log book for this sort of time.

Icus time is very attractive for a low time bloke, but its a company thing, so may not be open for every one.

Cheers.