Ryanair slated on ITV

[757manipulator]

Just watched a very interesting 15 mins of horror stories about passengers deserted on foreign shores due to "technical" faults.
Nice to see that this kind of poor customer service has made it onto national TV.
Anyone who works for Ryanair care to comment?:hmm:

Basically pax told flight cancelled..all the rest are booked..bugger off. (some poetic license here used with the language, but not the content)

[atse]

Just a little more info would help ..... (but I've no doubt the stories will come as a surprise to only one "employee", good ole Leo the Hairy Camel).

[hobie]

Talking to a gal a couple of weeks ago who told me she had flown in from Snn to Luton for a ticket price of one (1) cent (euro money) .....
I suppose if you want to fly 'low cost' there can be drawbacks from time to time :)

[DrKev]

And how much were the taxes and charges? Anyone remember when the ticket price WAS the taxes and charges?

[cwatters]

The Ryanair web site does cover this but I guess it could spell it out a bit more...

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php

What happens if my flight is cancelled by Ryanair?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If flights are cancelled by Ryanair and no suitable alternative flight is available, we will, upon application, fully refund all monies paid in respect of the cancelled flight, without further liability.

[Dockjock]

O'Leary quoted Dec.'05 Airliner World as saying low cost model will move towards free fares over the next 10 yrs, drawing revenue from buy on board, subsidy from other airport businesses, and gambling revenues. What kind of businessman develops a business around NOT charging people money for the service he provides...arrgh

[Fuzzy112]

You get what you pay for in this industry. If you pay a low cost fare you have to pay extra for customer service. That's why the Ryanair customer service department has one employee! When you pay a low cost fare you have to accept the fact that you may be left stranded - most passengers do not want to face this reality, they just look at the cost of the ticket. I had very little sympathy for any of the people stranded by Ryanair. You pay your money and take your chance.

[Global Pilot]

SO if their customer service is so bad why are an increasing number of people choosing to fly with them....33,368,585 in 2005. Perhaps they are providing a much sought after product.

[glidehigh]

It happened to me last week on FR Salzburg to STN. For almost 3 hours we were told 'delay due to operational reasons.' At the end they cancelled it apperently due Wx at STN. I went online and the METARS were good enough for a VFR flight in a C152! We were stranded just how the other people on ITV were, and not offered a return flight for 6 days. We had to rebook with FlyBe into BHX and then get coach to STN. Cost: about 25x the FR ticket price! It looks like they can just tell pax 'exceptional circumstance' and then they dont have to fork out, even if it was their fault. Yes, flying FR is a gamble, but surely they can have 1 a/c on standby to pick up any cancelled flights within a day or so.

[woodpecker]

We were all "thrown" of one of his services recently and made to queue behind 300 others on the apron awaiting immigration procedures. The Captain had been asked to keep us on board "for our own comfort" but refused. Luckily it didnt start raining until we were driving home.

The number of times into the US I was told I would not be able to disembark my passengers until the immigration queues reduced. Perhaps the local airport should have adopted the same procedure with the Ryanair Captain.

Does anyone out there know if Ryanair has a customer services department? The airline doesnt answer letters! I know they dont care, but would love them to confirm the fact by phone.

[Middle Seat]

SO if their customer service is so bad why are an increasing number of people choosing to fly with them....33,368,585 in 2005. Perhaps they are providing a much sought after product.

Bottom line -- because they're cheap--that's the "much sought after product." It is the unlucky ones who get stuck who will think twice before booking again with Ryanair.

Generally, there's no need for customer service department when things run smoothly. Customer service is there for when things go awry. And when things go awry at Ryanair, they just point to the agreement involved in flying on one of their flights.

For the most part, they deliver what they promise. But when they don't...

[atse]

If flights are cancelled by Ryanair and no suitable alternative flight is available, we will, upon application, fully refund all monies paid in respect of the cancelled flight, without further liability.Has anybody ever heard of a successful application for a refund? They don't answer the 'phone, etc. and get REALLY stroppy if you find a real (answered) telephone number and start trying to complain. Estimates for last year suggest that up to £20 million was made by Ryanair from unrefunded taxes, security charges, cancellations, etc. This is very much part of their business model.

woodpecker re your query some information is available at the following site (see the second paragraph) http://www.ryanair.org.uk/ - but you will need patience and determination. Mr. O'Leary has learned that he has much more patience and determination than most people and has concluded that it pays.

[Metro man]

Apply the principle of self insurance when flying on an airline such as this. ie each time you fly save a portion of what you have saved over flying a regular airline to pay your expenses resulting from cancellations and delays. Decide for yourself if the savings outweigh the occasional inconvenience in the long run.

[Avman]

I don't have any complaints about RYR. I just don't fly with them! I prefer to pay a little more (though even that's not always the case) and fly on real airlines!

[DISCOKID]

I've flown ryanair and BA weekly on the same route over the past year to Montpellier.

Frankly Ryanair generally do provide an excellent service hence why I was more than happy to fly with them.

Once the Ryanair inbound flight arrived there would be an immediate turnaround and we would invariably take off early and arrive back at stanstead early. They wouldn't wait around for official checkout closing time if all the passengers had already checked in. We'd be on the plane and off asap.

The BA flight would invariably never take off before schedule.
Yes the service onboard BA was far better (and the clientele not quite so chav) but frankly looking at the number of passengers that ryanair flies I doubt the number of complaints is any different to other airlines.

For 2 months my flights were 0.01 EUR before tax. (although unfortuatenly it was my company benefiting rather than me). And yes - I have once received a refund from Ryanairs customer service department after two flight numbers were mixed up on their live flight information screen.

[Nov71]

Mr O'Leary's 'free ticket' model may not be a bad idea (for him). As we have read elsewhere on this Forum, obtaining a ticket for even 1p constitutes a Contract between Carrier & passenger to be delivered to agreed destination in a reasonable time. Failure to comply is Breach of Contract in Civil Law attracting compensation for loss/expenses for the aggrieved Party. It could be pursued in the Small Claims Court under Consumer Law (service not provided?) The EU directive on passenger compensation would not apply in UK, except to suggest a benchmark level of compensation for pax. If you don't pay for carriage (ticket) in UK law there is no contract
The EU are considering the 'extraordinary' loophole eg if due to poor servicing, inadequate staffing levels as these are events that could be met by contingency planning
No one wants to fly a u/s airplane in u/s weather but any delay/cancellation should be expedited at the carrier's expense to fulfill the Contract
Failure to re-imburse passenger tax & other surcharges for a cancelled flight could be fraud as they are only applicable on departure.
The result will be higher min fares for the locos
In retail you are required to show the price and cost/100g for Cornflakes or the APR for a loan Maybe airlines should price routes at basic cost/mile with extras and discounts for early/late booking to achieve load factor shown seperately eg car insurance
These are only my thoughts, I am not aware of case law, maybe lawyers can comment. The lesson of the ITV prog was only those who complain may get a result. Next time my flight is cancelled/delayed for several hours I will require a written & signed explanation from the airline

[woodpecker]

Thanks ATSE for the info.

A lot of the issues regarding Ryanair are with regard to their handling agents staff who are required to wear Ryanair uniforms. The general public assume that wearing the uniform = working for them. I remember talking to a young girl in Brussels (working for a handling agent) who had to come to work with three different uniforms (one of which was BA) so as to "look the part" when dealing with each airlines passengers.

Surely Ryanair would be interested in the way there passengers are treated.

We drive to Bournemouth and arrive early to be in the "first thirty" to stand a chance of getting seats together in the emergency exits rows. All well and good but when it gets to the gate it becomes a bun-fight! The record was set last week with nine youths (who had checked in late) ducking under the rope to the head of the "first thirty" queue and being allowed to board after the families. With regard to the families themselves I might just start a "rent a kid" scheme! To see a group of eight all of whom were for me adults except one girl about 14 years old swanning past the queue is taking the p**s.

Worse was to come on the return at Gerona where the check in desks opened twenty minutes late and the single queue (about 120 in all) stretched across the hall and out the door. On opening the desks the supervisor then "invited" the second half of the queue to come forward to another desk.

From being in the first half dozen of the original queue we received numbers 27 and 28. Those behind us with over number 30 were livid!

Were the "uniformed staff" interested? No! Did the "single uniformed staff member" at the boarding gate check the numbers? No! Were there many p***ed off passengers? Yes!

Are Ryanair interested in feedback? No!

The cost of our cheap tickets? £130 of which almost £50 was taxes and "aviation levies" whatever they may be!

[Bigscotdaddy]

Many of us who have experienced the cancellation of a Flight by Ryanair will possibly be aware as I was, that the reason given for the cancellation (if indeed they even bother to give a reason) can be a blatant lie!

Also, I would be curious to know whether, if you do not in fact bother to claim a redfund, do they then still pass on the tax to the Govt. or, as I suspect, just keep the money. If so, then this must be fraudulent (theft of taxes?) and I'm surprised that the relevant authorities have not latched onto this.

[Hoping]

I fly from Athens to Birmingham quite regularly with airlines such as Air France and Lufthansa. I tried to save myself some cash over Christmas and flew with Easyjet into Luton direct from Athens. I saved a little on the ticket price but after paying for a bus and taxi home the price worked out about the same. When you consider that I get a free flight for every 7 flights with Lufthansa (air miles) it really isn't worth bothering with easyjet, even on a good day!

[10002level]

Hoping,
It really depends upon when you buy your ticket as to wether or not it is cost effective to fly the "low cost" route. Frequently the cost of a ticket is very low if booked far enough in advance. However, as the departure date becomes closer the lo-co's ticket prices increase and in many cases will exceed those of the full-service airline. The best advice is to shop around and beware that not all the lo-co's operate to the principal airport for your destination.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hoping makes a good point.

The best way is to decide which airport is bet for you, then see who offers the best VFM to there.

I normally find that the majors win it when travelling on business, although I've just enjoyed a great holiday due to easyJet offering a good deal.

[hobie]

And how much were the taxes and charges? Anyone remember when the ticket price WAS the taxes and charges?
..... a quick look at Ryanair's web site today indicates a maximum tax/fee/charges value of stg 15.10 max .... 12.50 minimum from UK points of departure ..... not sure about the Snn situation ... :ok:

[Lon More]

They made the Belgian papers a couple of months ago when a return flight to Charleroi was canceled due "technical reason" No alternative was offered and the pax ended up hiring a bus to get them home. They had a great deal of trouble getting anything repaid by Ryanair.
WYSIWYG

[Avman]

Maybe another attempt to bash the LC's?

No, I don't think this is general LC bashing. What is being said is that in the case of some LCs you may not be saving as much as you may think. And even much less when things go t!ts up.

There are LCs out there that do provide a relatively good service (including seat selection), fly you to your real desired destination, and treat their clients with respect. I would certainly not consider Ryanair as one of them!

[cwatters]

I was reading an old book recently that had extracts from the International passenger transport regulations of around 1935. In there is said that if a paper ticket isn't issued the airline isn't covered by the limitations and exceptions of the international regulations. I immediatly thought of todays ticketless airlines. I wonder if that particular clause still applies today?

PS I don't have access to the book right now (it's at home) otherwise I'd post the text word for word. The Title is something like "Encyclopedia of Avaition" and it was printed around 1935.

[alexss]

The EU directive on passenger compensation would not apply in UK, except to suggest a benchmark level of compensation for pax.

Why wouldn't the EU directive apply? Under the directive all airlines - even Ryanair - are obliged to pay for accommodation, food etc until they can get the pax home, even if the delay isn't their fault (however there is only cash compensation if it is their fault). See: http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/rights/doc/2005_01_19_apr_factsheet_en.pdf

Has Ryanair found a loophole in this? Or are they just ignoring it?

BTW the EC is looking at the issue of substantial taxes, fees and charges being added to ticket prices - especially as these don't always have a direct link to the costs that the airline actually incurs.

[flaps to 60]

I have got to that stage in my life that myself and the missus have a decent income and are starting to enjoy some of life's luxuries.

So with that in mind why the hell would we willingly subject ourselves to the bad service.....sorry! To say bad service would imply that there was some in the first place...of FR.

I have flown with them in the past and would now only use them as a last resort and while we have had some very low fares the whole experience was far less than satisfactory. While i dont expect to get a BJ walking onboard i do expect to get some of the things that are free like a smile or even a feigned interest in my lost luggage.

For me and one of the earlier posters when you add up all the costs in getting me from home to my destination LC's are either as expensive or regularly more.

I would rather pay a little more and as happened recently with BA know that my lost luggage will be delivered to my home address or that i will have some back up when things go for a burton.

A mate of mine worked for FR's customer service and in thier words not mine....when a compalint came in it was essentially binned!

The old adage you get what you pay for in life never rang so true.

Note EZY is way better than FR because they at least show some interest in customer service and do occasionally listen to you.

Note to MOL

Im sure you've heard "You can fool some of the people some of the time" etc etc etc:ok:

[Globaliser]

Why wouldn't the EU directive apply? Under the directive all airlines - even Ryanair - are obliged to pay for accommodation, food etc until they can get the pax home, even if the delay isn't their fault (however there is only cash compensation if it is their fault). See: http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/rights/doc/2005_01_19_apr_factsheet_en.pdf
Has Ryanair found a loophole in this? Or are they just ignoring it?I think that Nov71 was talking about what would be the case if FR didn't charge £0.01 for their "free" flights.

Nevertheless, it seems that FR is ignoring the directive at the moment, but there is a court case going on that may resolve the question whether FR is bound by the EU Regulation (it was not a Directive) in the same way as all other airlines.

[Nov71]

Alexss If the EU Regualation is all-embracing, why do airlines like RYR avoid paying by claiming 'extraordinary circumstances beyond their control'?
If the airline is subject to UK Law my suggestion was the pax may have alternative re-dress under UK Consumer legislation or Civil contract law, irrespective of the EU Regualation which only codifies levels of compensation within a time scale across the EU.
If you don't pay for your ticket (with 1p), only taxes, the pax has no re-dress under UK Consumer or Contract Law and the Carrier can evade the EU Regulation they are home free!
Cynically I thought all airlines tried to optimise load factors by cancellation and amalgamating flights until I read of that Xmas BA US-London flight with 2 pax The BA UK shuttles rarely had a standby a/c available as promised, the pax were just delayed to the next shuttle and the promise was quietly lost.

Perhaps the locos' have a point; the cash compensation for delays should be based on percentages of the ticket price not £/hr but the rest should remain
I routinely print my booking confirmation to avoid 'input' disputes at check-in

Any lawyers prepared to comment on the supposed 'extraordinary' loophole?

[cwatters]

Flaps to 60: Actually it's the "wealthy retired" who should be in a position to benifit most from low cost fares. They have fewer time commitments and should be better placed to travel when the tickets are cheaper. Obviously as you get older the prospect of a night in an airport isn't so appealing though!

[Nov71]

Ceefax/Teletext reports the EU Regulation & compensation scheme has been upheld in court - the airlines lost the case!

[slim_slag]

Probably reasonable, now we should expect another surcharge on your total flight price ala wheelchair. I worked out on the back of the envelope how much this might be, I reckon for Ryanair it should be less than £1 a ticket, but then what do I know?

As an aside, BA today launched an 'innovative' new service which is a funny word for them to use as it seems they have copied what Ryanair do right down to charging for food on board. Well I guess it's not quite the same, as domestic fares will start at £25.

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,16781,1683212,00.html?gusrc=ticker-103704

[Nov71]

Why wouldn't the EU directive apply? Under the directive all airlines - even Ryanair - are obliged to pay for accommodation, food etc until they can get the pax home, even if the delay isn't their fault (however there is only cash compensation if it is their fault).Has Ryanair found a loophole in this? Or are they just ignoring it?


Despite the Court win, the loophole is still in the Regulations so I expect to hear a lot more 'extraordinary' excuses. Food, accommodation etc is required in the Regs if the delay is the carriers fault!

[Capvermell]

Note EZY is way better than FR because they at least show some interest in customer service and do occasionally listen to you.

Im sure you've heard "You can fool some of the people some of the time" etc etc etc:ok:

In my humble experience the Easyjet method of dealing with customer compliants also involves binning/ignoring most of them and in most situations their fares are way higher than Ryanair's booking a similar time in advance on similar routes.

However I did manage to extract a full refund from Easyjet after being forced to travel back to Stansted (instead of Luton where I was supposed to go with Easyjet) on a more expensive standby flight with Airtours after Easyjet delayed their flight for 14 hours. However this was only because when I made it back to Luton by coach at 8am (I did not dare risk a £70 taxi fare) I camped in the reception of Easyland at Luton and refused to leave until someone in a management position saw me. Eventually they produced the manager of their telephone sales team who was a nice guy and honoured his word to make the full refund to my credit card.

In general where I have a choice I try to stay off Easyjet and Ryanir whenever possible.

[TotalBeginner]

Also, I would be curious to know whether, if you do not in fact bother to claim a redfund, do they then still pass on the tax to the Govt. or, as I suspect, just keep the money. If so, then this must be fraudulent (theft of taxes?) and I'm surprised that the relevant authorities have not latched onto this.

Not sure about this in the case of a cancelled flight, but in the case of pax who are no-shows the tax is definately witheld. Ryanair operate a double check-in system. Manually with pen and paper at the check-in desk and then again on computer so that they know which taxes must be passed on from those who have travelled.

When I worked for FR we were told that under NO circimstances should we advertise the fact that govt tax is refundable, but if a passenger specifically asked we were to give them the "customer service" address.

[silverelise]

O'Leary quoted Dec.'05 Airliner World as saying low cost model will move towards free fares over the next 10 yrs, drawing revenue from buy on board, subsidy from other airport businesses, and gambling revenues. What kind of businessman develops a business around NOT charging people money for the service he provides...arrgh

Judging by my recent experience with RyanAir I'd say he's on to a winner. Travelling from Stansted to Grenoble last Saturday, two women sat behind me purchased a cup of tea, a sandwich and a bag of M+M's. They hardly got any change out of a tenner, exclaiming "bleedin ell that's more than me ticket cost".

It staggers me that the travelling public can't manage a 90 minute flight without having to eat or drink something, but all the time our brains regress into "uggh.....aeroplane journey.....must eat", or we cannot amuse ourselves on shorthaul without buying scratchcards, using the phone or gambling or whatever, we will be lining the pockets of Mr.RyanAir very handsomely.

[Globaliser]

It staggers me that the travelling public can't manage a 90 minute flight without having to eat or drink something ...Sometimes, it'll be the only food and drink we've had all day.

Although I agree that there are many infrequent flyers for whom the food and drink is displacement activity rather than satistfying a need.