SAA's London Flight out of Cape Town in trouble?

[BAKELA]

Got the tail end of the news today that SAA Cape Town to London flight shut down an engine after T/O in FACT due to compressor stall and went to Johies! Pax seemed pretty peed off because they were given conflicting info by the crew - this was apparently caused by orders from "up top" in Johies to the crew not to land back in Cape Town but to get to Johies as an engine change would be "easier" there. Captain's decision should be the criteria should it not?

[captain cumulonimbus]

Hi there.

Captain's decision IS the final authority,or so it should be.However i'm willing to bet the captain wouldn't have had a problem shutting down number4 and diverting to FAJS.It makes much better sense.There is no imminent danger in a compressor-stalled shut down engine.A B744 can easily climb to altitude and cruise safely to FAJS on 3 motors.

Logistically,thats where SAA Technical is,and there are many more hotels for pax accomodation at joburg international,so it made much more sense to divert.

The principles of "Aviate,Navigate,Communicate" in that order were followed and that is good airmanship-a passenger will likely flinch and make wise-arse remarks at hearing the gear drop down,so its no use trying to give an AT&G lesson to 400 hyperventilating cabbages (as many tend to become in an emergency.)

What annoys me no end is the irresponsible,ignorant and opportunistic reporting on such incidents.702 had an interview with a british journalist on their "midday hour" today,and he was pretty much intoning that they had just escaped death,while the talkshow host claimed "its not possible for a birdstrike to cause an engine to cease functioning" citing the "fact" that ,and i quote:"Even a refugee was found alive recently hiding inside an engine hub on a jumbo" (????????). The mind boggles.

Sounds like a job well done by the crew of Sa220.

[4HolerPoler]

A literary gem - what a load of cr@p.
The terror on Flight 220

Johannesburg - When one engine of flight SA 220's Boeing barked like a dog and then spat fire, panicky adults cried like children during the take-off and some passengers "morbidly called on the assistance of their Creator". But South African Airways says the panic on Thursday evening on a flight from Cape Town to London was totally unnecessary. Hundreds of passengers who left Cape Town at 22:03 were stranded in Johannesburg until Friday after a bearing in one of the four engines of the Boeing 747 apparently packed up during take-off from the Peninsula. SAA operational chief captain Colin Jordaan said on Friday this caused the airflow through the engine to be disrupted and forced the ignition process to the outside, resulting in a flame coming from the engine. :confused: While this sort of thing would be virtually invisible in daytime, and could even be caused by a bird being sucked into an engine, it could be "spectacular" at night - and, it was.

Inigo Gilmore, a passenger, told 702 radio station "total panic reigned". "We could clearly see how flames spewed from one of the engines. "Absolute pandemonium broke out in the rear of the aircraft," said Gilmore. "Children started screaming when shouts of ?fire, fire? were heard, and when this spread to the rest of the plane people really started panicking." According to Jordaan, some passengers even started wetting the inside of the cabin with water on the side near the fire-spitting engine, hoping to cool it. :oh: "Of course, something like this is not an enjoyable experience at all," he said

The jet was in the air for about 30 seconds and at a height of about 250m when the captain switched off the engine and continued climbing on the remaining three engines. SAA's technical division recommended that the captain continue with the flight to Johannesburg. According to Jordaan, the captain would have had to jettison about 100 tons of fuel before he could land at Cape Town again and, in addition, a spare engine for the Boeing was available only in Johannesburg. This type of aircraft carries about 145 tons of fuel on a flight from Cape Town to London.

Captain Piet Taljaard, chairman of the SAA Pilots? Association (Saapa) told Die Burger that he had already heard an engine bark and say "woof-woof", and then spew out flames. :} However, on a four-engined jet, such as the 747-400 - which has been designed to fly on three engines only - this presented "no danger at all". "People then immediately call on the Lord and men make peace with their wives. "This has happened so many times in the past, and it will happen again." According to Jordaan, the engine bearings are checked weekly. :{ Although the engine in question had seen many hours of service, there was no "early-warning sign of any danger".

Beautiful. Just beautiful. :ok: 4HP :{

[Spetsnaz]

I hope it really was a bird and not maintenance.

Getting caught telling porkies to the pax is not likely to have a calming effect now is it?

[Gunship]

Well done to the crew.

The newsclip - what a laugh :D:D:D

[I.R.PIRATE]

Ok my hat is already on, I got my coat, and my foot's holding the door open.

Passengers like this deserve exactly these kind of situations. I wish all passengers could be forced to go through this at least once in their miserable lives.:eek: OH MY GOD!!!!!... sorry it was just the irritating little Rolls Royce/CFM/Trent stoepkakker next door chasing the cat a little loudly.:\ My appolgies to all, especially to the rest of my house mates, who now have to replace the computer since I discharged a foam fire bottle at it when the little light under the monitor came on.

Reminds me of someone I know who, whenever his kids are getting out of hand, admonishes them with a stern , " Stop acting like a passenger." He has trained them so well, that this brings tears and wailing, " weeee dooonttt waaannnttt ttoooo bbeeeeee pppaaaaassseeennnggggeeerrrssss:{ :{ :{ .

Love it:ok:
Bleedin' cabbages all of em :I wanna be a freight jock.....

[B Sousa]

747 is a tough bird for sure. Remember back in the old days they used to mount a spare engine on the belly for ferry purposes as they couldnt ship it internally..
Sounds like good CRM by the crew, hats off.
Other than that, just another day in African skies........

[BAKELA]

Capt Cb, thanks for the gen on this one. Well done to the crew. 4HP & IRP thanks for the gems on the pax and kids (which is which?). Have to agree, once boarding pass issued, IQ resets to levels only find in Ossie...err...sheep.:E

[ou Trek dronkie]

You know, ladies and gentlemen, this type of stupid report (for that is exactly what it is) is standard fare for the average newspaper and should not really excite great interest, except for a jolly good laugh and a very nasty comment from us all about the world of hacks. So many of those who write for the Press are completely ignorant and write the first thing they think of, so long as it makes good headlines and sells more papers and then they can ramp up the advertising rates etc etc etc. Skom ouens.

But, kerels, you know, they print this rubbish because the punters actually love to read it. I have always been certain that at least 50% of pax on an average flight are petrified of flying. Could be higher. Ou Buccaneer and Bakkie, please don’t knock the paying pax please, they cough for all the salaries and it is not their fault if they are ill-informed. Honestly, they are nice people, just like you and me. They also enjoy their moment of “drama” - “Luister boet, ya know what happened to me last week hey ?!! ? Ongelloo0flik !!

Surely everyone must have been buttonholed at least once at the bar/braai/steakhouse by someone who, once they have elicited you are a pilot, starts to relate their terrifying experience with Blah Blah Blah …………………………… etc ad nauseam (that’s Latin for a Technicolor yawn). Then there are the other ones who say “So you are going to New York tomorrow, now what can you bring back for me from the States ??”

After all, to be slightly serious, remember an engine bearing going sideways can become extremely interesting for all concerned if all does not happen by the book. Anyone who has dealt with this situation will surely agree ?

Maybe some of the pax were B747 crew !!!!

Ou Bakkie, I think you will find that the 5th motor went under the wing, not mounted on the belly. It’s called a “Fifth pod operation”. Moral : “First thing on the walk round* – Always count the number of engines”. Good advice which I always heeded.

oTd

*different aeroplane in my case.

[B Sousa]

I think you will find that the 5th motor went under the wing, not mounted on the belly.
OK.Under the wing where it attached to the Belly..........

[BAKELA]

OTD, nice one...escpecailly the bit about the technicolor yawn. Now the fifth engine, that and the second, third and fourth engines are always on the mind and that's what I enjoyed about singles, be they vlammies or pistons ot TP's. Nothin' more than one to disturb the mind. The walk around involved no counting (not even crew roll call) and once it goes...KISS is the answer...simplicity kicks in...you only have one option (down - forced lob or silk let down)...you only have one fan and one paw-paw to worry about...one of everything with no options...no need to think...just do what you have to do to not KISS your :mad: goodbey.:p
Think about it, flying a twin increases your changes of an engine failure by 100%...imagine what five does!!!:uhoh:

[ou Trek dronkie]

Here's a nice pic :

http://p.chateau.free.fr/FIFTHPODTWA/FIFTHPODTWA_06.htm

[MysticFlyer]

Dump a hundred tonnes of "sous" over Cape town areas, no ways, mate!

Sous is worth far more! Loose a d(r)onkie always means go back, lest you may loose another one enroute! Pod-belly fiited and all! (on our wings and a prayer!)

Huh?! Hic! Ad nausiam, and then :yuk:

[Gunship]

Here's a nice pic :
http://p.chateau.free.fr/FIFTHPODTWA/FIFTHPODTWA_06.htm

So can anyone claim himself deemed to be known as "5 holer Poler" ? :E

[I.R.PIRATE]

Well I sure have poled a few holes, however a 5 holer-poler...um...NO

[ou Trek dronkie]

Nice try Gunnss, but to be a nit-picker, the underslung donk has the orifices blocked off. Unlike a whirlibird, you don't want those fans rotating of their own accord.

Bakkie, the maths is good, but by reductio ad absurdum, this means "One P&W good, four P&Ws bad" Where did Mr Boeing go wrong ?

oTd

[MysticFlyer]

Surely will bring back some stick and rudder flying if the other one, the one the same wing, well, coughed before dirtyness cleared up or anytime thereafter....

Hell guys! Come on! JHB is how far away? Then again, alternate FAFK'sakes? (Pheasant Meadows), how's development coming along?

[Mad Dog 83]

I was present at Jan Smuts Airport (soon Oliver Tambo International ? ? ? ? uuuuugh!) when the first SAA B747-244, ZS-SAN was delivered in the early 1970s. It carried with it the spare engine under the wing, just like the one in the picture of the TWA B747.

I wonder if the later B747 models (-300 and -400) had the same capacity....the hard point to carry a spare engine under the wing. I have never seen a picture of these models carry-ing the spare engine!

[MysticFlyer]

Hi there.
Captain's decision IS the final authority,or so it should be.However i'm willing to bet the captain wouldn't have had a problem shutting down number4 and diverting to FAJS.It makes much better sense.There is no imminent danger in a compressor-stalled shut down engine.A B744 can easily climb to altitude and cruise safely to FAJS on 3 motors.
Logistically,thats where SAA Technical is,and there are many more hotels for pax accomodation at joburg international,so it made much more sense to divert.

Sounds like a job well done by the crew of Sa220.

Questions pending here....what if no.3 coughed too, after no.4 is declared u/s after the shutdown?

"Paralax asymetry" could cause mountain fires....this went almost as quiet as a dodo!

The lack of responses baffles....group silence!?

[SortieIII]

MF, Capt. CB is right.

I guess that it would have taken about 60 minutes to dump to MLW. In 60 minutes they would have been TOD for JNB. I assume that is where the spare engine/s are kept?

Pax would be pleased to know that JNB is also where a spare A/C might be found.
B744 is a mighty impressive A/C, even on three engines. As far as the possibility of another one failing goes.......how far do you want to take the statistics?:confused: In any event, this possibility is also catered for.

As far as the decision being 'forced' on the crew by 'heavies', I suggest that the crew probably thought of it themselves, and then consulted with the 'heavies' in case there was a reason for them to land in CPT. Captain's decision remains final, as far as I am aware?

[Spetsnaz]

So was it a bird ....:confused:

Will we ever know?

[SortieIII]

So was it a bird ....:confused:
Will we ever know?

Was it a plane, was it superman......does it matter???:confused:

OTD fifth pod definitely not 'blanked off', drag would be too great. Rotating parts held in position to minimise drag. Performance is adjusted accordingly.

Fan blades are removed, and an airflow guide installed in their place. Not much used today, apparently it is cheaper to airfreight an engine? Also the 'fifth pod kit' costs a bomb, and many companies don't want to carry it on inventory.

[PAXboy]

It's a quiet Sunday evening, so I had a dabble in Airliners.net

Opps, half a tick, I'll try again ... Nope, for some reason I cannot get the URL's to link on this occasion, so you will have to do the hard work.
1) Airliners.net
2) Search for 744 (without specifying the model number)
3) In 'Keywords' enter "spare engine". I got 13 pics to view

[Spetsnaz]

Was it a plane, was it superman......does it matter??? What kind of pilot are you Mr Off Topic? ;-)

[Globaliser]

Nope, for some reason I cannot get the URL's to link on this occasion, so you will have to do the hard work.You have to look for the URL that's in this format - http://www.airliners.net/open.file/783444/M/ - which appears near the top of each photo page.

For those who want to do the search, I think that you'll need to specify Boeing 747 without model number - but then you do get a gratifying number of pics.

Interesting to see quite a recent example - http://www.airliners.net/open.file/635769/M/

[PAXboy]

Thanks Globaliser, I spent some time copying and editing the URLs and, for the first time ever, could not get them to format correctly. I seem to recall that the external ferry postion is still available but engines can now be fitted into freighters more easily, or carried externally on freighters, rather than on revenue service pax flights?

[ou Trek dronkie]

Sortie 3,

Thank you for the correction. You are absolutely right of course, it is so long ago since I did one my mind is banked off. I meant to convey the idea of the fan not rotating.

Anyway, not everyone did it properly :

Oh, the paste failed , don’t know how to paste pictures.


oTd

[Deanw]

Confirmation that an SAA 744 has the ability to transport fifth engine.


SOUTH AFRICAN AIRWAYS (SAA) ENGINE PROBLEM IN ACCRA, GHANA, CAUSES KNOCK ON EFFECT

JOHANNESBURG. 24 January 2006. South African Airways (SAA) flight SA208, that departed from Washington on 23 January to Johannesburg, via Accra, had an engine failure on take off from Accra and had to turn back.
This flight is now delayed and passengers are being accommodated in hotels in Accra. These passengers will be accommodated on flight SA208, due to depart from Washington today at 17h25 (S.A. local time).

SA058, due to have departed from Johannesburg today at 12:30, is now delayed to depart at 20:00 tonight. This aircraft has been rescheduled to depart as SA9058. This delay is as a result of the need to fit a fifth Boeing 747-400 aircraft engine, to that flight, to be transported to Accra to replace the defective engine on SA208. The additional engine will be attached to the wing of SA 9058. SAA technicians will also be on the flight.

SA058 was rescheduled to operate Johannesburg, Accra, Lagos, and Abidjan as SA9058, to enable SAA to deliver the serviceable aircraft engine and technicians to Accra.

The grounded aircraft in Accra will be ferried back to Johannesburg, without any passengers on board, as soon as the engine change is completed in Accra.

The total delay on departure from Johannesburg is 8 hours 30 minutes.

Passengers destined for Lagos and Abidjan scheduled to travel on flight
SA058 were given letters and meal vouchers at the check in counters during normal check in procedures (when the knock on effect became apparent). Part of the First Class passengers decided to stay in the SAA First Class lounge, while a group of First Class passengers from Sao Paulo remained in transit at the transit lounge. One passenger decided to go home and SAA staff will keep in contact with him.

A further knock on effect is the cancellation of flights SA234 scheduled to have departed today from Johannesburg for London at 21:15, as well as the return flight SA9235 that was due to depart from London for Johannesburg at 20:00 tomorrow.

SAA foresees that its schedule will be normalised by tomorrow night. The knock-on effect of the single incident has resulted in a number of our customers being greatly inconvenienced and SAA would like to apologise for this. SAA would also like to assure our customers that matter is receiving urgent attention and will be resolved as speedily as possible.

[MysticFlyer]

This one turned back.

Quite a number of engines failing to cooperate lately?:ooh: