BACitiExpress The final solution!

[Sheikh Zabik]

Weird memo from Chief Executive warning of some speculation in the press this weekend about the latest reinvention of this company. Apparently this will be "positive" ahead of announcements next week.

Rumours are that this will be the final "big one" and represent WW's considered view of the future of loss making LGW and CX.

New name definitely coming next week..........."European" in there somewhere......

This one has leaked like a sieve.....so come on all........tell us what you know.

[Speedpig]

British European Airways has a certain ring to it:}

[apaddyinuk]

Hehehe....And to differenciate and distance LHR from this they shall be adding "Overseas" and "Coorporation" into the LHR fleet no doubt!!! :}

[whattimedoweland]

I dread to think!!. Surely he it can't be ****** up more than it already is!!:mad:

Trying to get crew's to crew it would help!!.Maybe they can offer better money to attract and keep them.

WTDWL.

[2shits]

Now......Now.....I know what yer sayin'.....but......yer wrong!!!!

[Grand yahoo]

A well placed source says,,,,,,

'After three years of not the best performance in a very difficult marlket....spin..blah, blah it is the BACX name that has been the problem@

Solution a name that will mean what we are D E A D U K - Didsbury European Airways Division UK!

hmph

[marlowe]

BARE British Airways Regional Europe were all gonna work for Bare air !!!!!

[flyer55]

Or even BA RED!

[marlowe]

So if LGW is to be lumped in to the BACX (or what ever its new title is to be) pot how do you guys feel about this? assuming this to be correct

[Cutoff]

Here is an article in the Telegraph, looks quite promising.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/01/07/cnba07.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2006/01/07/ixcitytop.html

[flyer55]

Marlowe , LGW isnt included in the changes to Regional bases as mentioned in the article . Lgw has its own agenda mainly the Singlefleet . We will just have to wait and see what WW announces next week !

[Tandemrotor]

Anybody know of another lo-co model based on the Embraer 145? (BMI?)

Where is the saving for the airline, in preventing business travellers from paying a premium? I suspect it takes more than removing a cabin divider to create a lo-co.

But the rebranding seems absolutely the right way to go. IMHO

[jamesbrownontheroad]

Anybody know of another lo-co model based on the Embraer 145? (BMI?)

Hahahahahahahha... :E

Sorry, had to pick myself up... nope, in fact the BMI Regional Embraers are some of the last routes on the BD network where you get full service, and there are none of the 'tiny' fares. The 145 is not a smart choice for lo-co; the way forward for those sorts of routes is props. BE have proved that; the Q400 hasn't been trouble free, but it drinks less and moves like s--- off a hot shovel, so it's been a good choice for them.

*j*

[Dash-7 lover]

Quite please with the personalised postcard in the post this morning from the MD with a pic of a gift-wrapped 145 saying 'all will be revealed.........'

Can't say anymore.

I do think this is the last throw of the dice though? fingers crossed.

[WOWBOY]

If they had done this a while back they could have saved the operations at Belfast, Plymouth, Leeds/Bradford and Cardiff. :D

[Dash-7 lover]

And not forgetting ABERDEEN/GLASGOW/NEWCASTLE/JERSEY

[Tandemrotor]

jamesbrownontheroad

My point exactly. I don't think it's an accident that the loco models are based almost exclusively on a/c a little larger than 49 seaters.

This seems likely to become quite an interesting experiment! It is yet to be explained where any savings will occur. That's going to be the most interesting bit!

BA does of course have 'previous' for setting up locos.

Oh, and then selling them off!

[GoEDI]

nope, in fact the BMI Regional Embraers are some of the last routes on the BD network where you get full service, and there are none of the 'tiny' fares.

Yes there are, well atleast on EDI-MAN there are... Enjoyable flight it was too...;)

[Railgun]

WW is not exactly new to the Loco model and i am sure he will have something up his sleave with aircraft type......

[MerchantVenturer]

I know I'm a bit long in the tooth, well I would be if I had any, and memory sometimes plays tricks but, as I chomp on my old clay pipe, I seem to recall that BA once had a low-cost, no frills airline, and a very good one it was.

I even have a book about it all somewhere, written by a charming American lady called Cassani.

BA's loco transformed my local airport at BRS and it will be somewhat ironic if the new version finds itself in direct competition with the old, now part of the orange airline of course.

If the Telegraph's information is correct I hope that all works out well, and it is not a case of the old idea that when we don't know what to do we reorganise because it creates a fine illusion of progress.

[WOWBOY]

Do you think that the improved citixpress will have its own livery on aircraft or own website?

[macf]

love to know how much the nice little cards we all got cost....would have been cheaper to post a memo in crew rooms to look in 'Telegraph'

ERJ145 not suitable for low cost as Ryan and Easy have shown.....too small.... 'club' gave us the small profit we made.....imho

[Railgun]

I wonder if there is any truth in the rumors of 7**'s to the regions instead of been scrapped/sold on. Sound plausible to me as they have got about as long left working for BA mainline as the regional outfit has to make a profit.

[jamesbrownontheroad]

Quite please with the personalised postcard in the post this morning from the MD with a pic of a gift-wrapped 145 saying 'all will be revealed.........'
Can't say anymore.

Hang on a moment...... something's just occured to me...

Do you think that the improved citixpress will have its own livery on aircraft or own website?

A postcard with a gift-wrapped 145? Suggests a big livery change.

Here's an idle question... If a launch is coming this week, and if employees are being prepared for something big with a postcard that hints at a new set of clothes for the aforementioned sexy Brazilian...

...is there an a/c hidden away somewhere, all snazzed up with a new livery ready for the launch? I know some of BACX's Embraers have passed through Sprayavia in NWI in the past.

We'll just have to wait and see (or beam a signal out into the night sky to call in our trusty hoards of spotters... ;)

*j* :ok:

[False Capture]

Willie Walsh is quoted in the Telegraph as saying "CitiExpress has been something of a challenge for us. The financial performance of this business has not been good enough. All parts of the business must contribute to us reaching the target of a 10pc operating profit margin."

I fail to see how reducing fares (from £99 return to £25 one-way) on a 49-seater aircraft (which already operate at 70% load-factors) will result in a higher yield. I find this especially the case considering the loss of Club Europe revenue.

How can this possibly result in BACX turning round a £30million/year loss into a 10% profit margin?

More immediately, re-branding is yet another step down the road in preparing BACX for sell off or a management buy out. If a new livery is unveiled next week (as suggested by the postcards) then it wont be long until BA profits from the sale of BACX.

[Grand yahoo]

Can it really be losing £30m a year ..........telegraph article!

To turm this round it would need another 1.2M passengers paying £25 - about 25,000 Embraer flights about 8 years flying for one aircraft.

Unless the new 'BACX' starts to pay it's way BA can only improve it's profits by the disposal of BACX, even if it was sold for £77.999,999 less than it was purchased for.

Although there has been a reduction in the numbers of manangement staff, overheads, and poor routes dumped there has been no change at the top. The present 'gang' have done their bit -time for new blood to make or break what looks like the last chance for this section of BA.

Good luck to all the staff who have endured this rough ride. Wonder how much it cost to send all these postcards?

[jamesbrownontheroad]

Good luck to all the staff who have endured this rough ride. Wonder how much it cost to send all these postcards?

And it must have cost a fortune in gift-wrap to cover a 145... :}

This is going to be a very interesting couple of weeks... I suspect the jobs are safe, but there's going to be more than just a change of uniform for everyone involved. Let's see whether WW can bring his magic touch to BACX...

*j*

[tiggerific_69]

how can WW say that BACX "has been something of a challenge for us" when it is only recently an announcement was made,i think september,when they said that "BA will be recomitting to the regions",before that theyve pretty much disassociated with us and if you asked a member of mainline crew what BACX were,they didnt have a clue!

[zed3]

I use BAW (BACX) approx 8x per year DUS-MAN et vv. and find it a good product for the price and have always said it should be a one class flight , as flag carrier , with different fares . What they need is larger a/c ... maybe the EMB170 or so , could that not be in the hidden photo ? How they can make money with the E145 yet without Club remains to be seen . If I ruled Waterworld ..... !!!

[bmibaby.com]

The idea of running a low-cost airline with 50-seat regional jets does not work, if you need any proof of that, just ask the thousands of staff who have recently become unemployed thanks to the collapse of Independence Air. Whilst for passengers, the introduction of RJs to regional flying has, some might say, improved the image of "puddle jumper" airlines & provided a more comfortable flying experience, the costs for operating these jets is huge, especially with the current state of oil prices. For a LCC, it is worse, as the cost of operating the flight cannot be spread so evenly across an aircraft if there are only 50-seats. The Avro RJs are also ageing, and I believe fairly expensive to maintain, but the 100-seat market, if operated by the correct equipment, could be a huge money-coup for BACX. JetBlue appear to be doing well with the EMB-190 (100-seats) proving lowcost with smaller aircraft can work.

Perhaps Willie's plan for BACX is to become operational like a LCC. Fast turnarounds with the help of cabin-crew, one-cabin fleet, maybe even a one-type fleet. Ridding BACX of Club Europe may appear to be a problem, but as long as the airline provides the same standards of safety & service that pax expect from British Airways, then I doubt you'll see a huge dip in pax numbers, particularly if the benefits of Executive Club are still available.

[IB4138]

Wonder if some people will receive their postcards in brown envelopes with "Dear John" letters?

Then, the new livery could be brown envelope coloured!:eek:

[False Capture]

bmibaby.com,

"The Avro RJs are also ageing".

Don't make me laugh, the youngest Avro RJ isn't even 5 years old.

[tiggerific_69]

i think the Embraers are at least 8 years old.It definitely cant work on the smaller aircraft.another example is Duo,i know there were underlying problems there again to do with managament,but werent they low cost business class,which is what in effect BACX would become going by the interview with WW in the telegraph

[False Capture]

Announcement due early morning Tuesday 10th January.

[aeulad]

There is mention of 14 regional airports, which ones? Any chance of Humberside being in there? A 49 seater would be ideal for the size of the market, routes like Copenhagen, Paris, Belfast, Southampton etc.

Regards

Mike

[tiggerific_69]

me & my colleague have been trying to think of the 14 airports theyre talking about,as we could only name ten current ones,so they must be introducing new routes or bases.i have heard from a colleague that a manager said "were not getting rid of aircraft we currently have,however it doesnt mean that were not getting old aircraft from another base" which brings us back to the 737s from LGW rumour

[Volmet South]

me & my colleague have been trying to think of the 14 airports theyre talking about,as we could only name ten current ones,so they must be introducing new routes or bases.

You are assuming the management can count.

If indeed they can then Gatwick and the 737 fleet would be the obvious choice.

[marlowe]

Tiggerific none of the BACX embraers are 8 years old where you get that idea from?

[virginblue]

The idea of running a low-cost airline with 50-seat regional jets does not work, if you need any proof of that, just ask the thousands of staff who have recently become unemployed thanks to the collapse of Independence Air.


Maybe this will all end up in a US-style CPA agreement. Newly founded ExpressJet Europe is aggressively soliciting customers for their CPA concept that would make it easier for established airlines to offer low cost products with regional jets as they can benefit from the economies of scale of the CPA provider. Must I mention that chairmen (and investors) of ExpressJet Europe are former top brass of BRAL, Business Air, British European... (incl. Messrs. Liddiard and Wooley) ? Interesting times....

[HZ123]

I cannot see how CX can make a profit out of £25.00 tickets plus using EMB's. Surely these a/c are not suitable for this type of operation. I do not see anyone else using them and that in itself tells its own story. As mainline BA staff we want CX t o suceed and become more profitable. Surely it is time Waterside sorted out what CX is expected to be and invested in the right a/c. The only EMB to make profit out of this has to be the 170/190.

[randomair]

Quote:
nope, in fact the BMI Regional Embraers are some of the last routes on the BD network where you get full service, and there are none of the 'tiny' fares.


Yes there are, well atleast on EDI-MAN there are... Enjoyable flight it was too...

GoEDI well they may have cheep fares but, correct me if im wrong, i'm sure you still get a full service...choice of drinks and a lovely pannini. :D and they're still making a profit (so they say).

[tiggerific_69]

Marlowe if you click the links below and scroll down,i think you'll find these are our aircraft and were delivered to BA in 1997 which makes them at least 8 years old

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=221470&WxsIERv=Rzoenre%20RZO-145RH%20%28REW-145RH%29&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=Oevgvfu%20Nvejnlf&QtODMg=Trarin%20-%20Vagreangvbany%20%28Pbvageva%29%20%28TIN%20%2F%20YFTT%29&ERDLTkt=Fjvgmreynaq&ktODMp=Wnahnel%2019%2C%202002&BP=1&WNEb25u=Puneyrf%20Snyx&xsIERvdWdsY=T-RZOO&MgTUQtODMgKE=Qryvirerq%20%2797%2C%20fgvyy%20jvgu%20vgf%20Jbe yq%20Pbybe%20fpurzr.%20Bcrengrq%20ol%20Oevgvfu%20Ertvbany%20 Nveyvarf.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=176&NEb25uZWxs=2002-03-03%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=145021&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccu bgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2C ert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B% 22T-RZOO%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cub gb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=10&prev_id=221489&next_id=175889

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=805065&WxsIERv=Rzoenre%20RZO-145RH%20%28REW-145RH%29&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=Oevgvfu%20Nvejnlf&QtODMg=Qhffryqbes%20-%20Vagreangvbany%20%28Eurva-Ehue%20%2F%20Ybunhfra%29%20%28QHF%20%2F%20RQQY%29&ERDLTkt=Treznal&ktODMp=Znl%2029%2C%202004&BP=1&WNEb25u=Gbovnf%20Ebfr%20-%20Unzohet%20ErggbcF&xsIERvdWdsY=T-RZOP&MgTUQtODMgKE=Ba%20vgf%20jnl%20gb%20ehajnl%2023Y.%20Guvf%20nv epensg%20jnf%20qryvirerq%20gb%20Oevgvfu%20Nvejnlf%20ba%201fg %20Bpgbore%201997.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=119&NEb25uZWxs=2005-03-28%2007%3A22%3A49&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=145024&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccu bgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2C ert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B% 22T-RZOP%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cub gb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=5&prev_id=846805&next_id=788982

[Railgun]

me & my colleague have been trying to think of the 14 airports theyre talking about,as we could only name ten current ones,so they must be introducing new routes or bases.i have heard from a colleague that a manager said "were not getting rid of aircraft we currently have,however it doesnt mean that were not getting old aircraft from another base" which brings us back to the 737s from LGW rumour


It is 757's and the regions that are been linked at the moment.

[judge11]

virginblue or anybody else - CPA? Please explain.

[Volmet South]

757 ????? That figures, give BACX the 20 year old uneconomic cast-offs from mainline and then wonder why they don't make a profit.

[tallaonehotel]

After the series of "roadshows" none of the BACX staff know what the hell is going on, our leadership team seem to stumble from one bad idea to another.
It all went wrong when BA regional got lumped in with Cityflyer, Brymon etc etc..

This will be another poor attempt to empty the final flood from the bilges of a sinking ship, man the lifeboats boys and girls..........

[Blade Blender]

Just to put Tiggerific in the picture as regards the age of the aircraft in the current BACX fleet, the last EMB 145 was delivered in July of 2002 and the youngest RJ 100 was first registered in January 2001. So the fleet is not that old. But I do agree, the aicraft are not really suitable for what they are being used for.
Are lower fares the way to get more bums on seats? lets hope so. But if you have forty nine bums on seats at £25.99 each that ain't alot of money. Probably won't even cover the fuel cost, let alone the wages bill.
Larger aircraft that are more fuel efficient is one way to go. but hey we can't do that because of some agreement that says BACX pilots can't fly aircraft with more than one hudred seats, they have to be operated by mainline flt crew. So how can we compete with outdated, in-efficient and unsuitable aircraft. What we really need is a huge investment in new modern aircraft. Hail the A319/318. Only a few months ago mainline were bashing on about how fuel efficient their new 319's were compared to the aircraft they replaced on a certain route to somewhere in Europe and using some two and half tons less fuel.
Sorry, been going on a bit, just my opinion. BACX has suffered from a lack of investment in equipment, so lets have some. You can do all the rebranding you like. But as far the aircraft are concerned you can't polish a t**d.

All the best

BB

Off the gym to get rid of Christmas.

[tiggerific_69]

Railgun,the rumour going around BACX at BHX was 737s coming from gatwick.this rumour was also going around the EDI base.Blade blender,im aware of when they were delivered,but some of the older embraers are from 1997.the ages vary,particularly between the ERJ registered aircraft,which are newer,and the EMB registered aicraft,which are older

[skiddyiom]

After the series of "roadshows" none of the BACX staff know what the hell is going on, our leadership team seem to stumble from one bad idea to another.
It all went wrong when BA regional got lumped in with Cityflyer, Brymon etc etc..
This will be another poor attempt to empty the final flood from the bilges of a sinking ship, man the lifeboats boys and girls..........
Just about sums our situation up, tallaonehotel. We not only need a change of aircraft, we need a change of senior management! :*
skiddy:confused:

[tiggerific_69]

totally agree with you there skiddy.apparently some ambassadors have been chosen to represent the new company at bhx,and even they dont know whats going on.could be embarassing for them if it ended up being like Hooters Air ;) spose were all just going to have to wait till tomorrow morning.

[Leviathan]

CPA (Capacity Purchase Agreement) as I understand it is a bit like a franchise agreement in a different dress, slightly different dynamic in corporate structure etc. but essentially the same thing where a large network carrier (eg BA) Buys x amount of capacity from another corporate entity but maintains control over certain, if not all aspects of the operation.

Expressjet in the US provides regional services to Continental mainline through a Capacity Purchase Agreement, but as I see it it's just another buzz word for a franchise agreement...........

Leviathan

[Hansol]

What I don't understand is how WW thinks he can turn the business round by cutting the price of seats, there must be some cost cutting somewhere.

[tiggerific_69]

at least WW seems bothered about the future of BACX.Eddington never seemed to mention us.

[marlowe]

The cost cutting is gonna be in the catering dept as they are looking to slash the 18 million outlay each year so looks like could be buying the onboard product in future also rumours of cabin crew cleaning aircraft at £5.00 per head per sector as this will cut the cleaning bill as well.

[skiddyiom]

at least WW seems bothered about the future of BACX.Eddington never seemed to mention us.

LOL! Not sure if thats a good thing or bad!:}

skiddy

[tallaonehotel]

BACX will be sold off/given away that is a cert.
We will never make the cut no matter what happens. As someone mentioned before, you can't polish t**d.

The good people of BACX have been caught in the middle of a changing airline industry and a poorly managed operation, with the parent company not really bothering with investment, just asset stripping as they have always done.

Remember the good old days folks, it's all a memory.

[tallaonehotel]

Cabin crew cleaning the aircraft.....

I predict more cabin crew sickness at all bases now!
Why has it taken us so long to come up with these cost cutting ideas???

3 years to late.

[marlowe]

The cleaning idea has been on the cards for about 2 years but the mis-management have never pushed for it before, also heard that they want to shorten the turnround times as well so cabin crew will have to clean and security check A/C and sort out the cash for the catering in a shorter time oh and make the turnround drinks as well!!!!!

[tallaonehotel]

I don't know if I will be able to sleep tonight, anyone know a 'night-nurse'?.

[tiggerific_69]

another one was them taking crew food off us.but then they wud have to stop nightstops/3 days trips & gv us allowances and longer turnarounds so we have time to get food & eat it.which wont work if they make us clean & want us on the ground less time.spose we'll just have to wait another 14 and a half hours and see what happens

[marlowe]

I bet the web site goes tech! that would be typical BACX!!!!!

[tiggerific_69]

ive been expecting nothing less!!!!if were lucky we might be able to find out thru the intranet,dont know if you have seen the new banner on the mainpage about the "new business launch"

[tallaonehotel]

Something is bound to go wrong tomorrow morning!

The banner on the main page made me chuckle, most of us were back at work last week?....

[WOWBOY]

What website is this you guys are talking about?

ba.com?

[marlowe]

Wow Boy the company have set up a special web site so that employees can log on from 7am tomorrow morning so they can get the info first hand as opposed to third hand as per normal ie cleaners and caterers

[WOWBOY]

Wow Boy the company have set up a special web site so that employees can log on from 7am tomorrow morning so they can get the info first hand as opposed to third hand as per normal ie cleaners and caterers

Ah!
I see thanks for the info :D

[tiggerific_69]

and there is a banner advertising it on the BACX intranet :)

[Cyrano]

CPA (Capacity Purchase Agreement) as I understand it is a bit like a franchise agreement in a different dress, slightly different dynamic in corporate structure etc. but essentially the same thing where a large network carrier (eg BA) Buys x amount of capacity from another corporate entity but maintains control over certain, if not all aspects of the operation.

Expressjet in the US provides regional services to Continental mainline through a Capacity Purchase Agreement, but as I see it it's just another buzz word for a franchise agreement...........

Leviathan

Not so. There is a very big difference: who takes the commercial risk? Who'll lose money if a route flops (or who'll make it if it's a winner)?

In a franchise agreement, the franchisee (the little guy) takes that risk: will this be a good route to launch? What fare levels should I set? Can I get a high enough yield? How often should I fly the route?

In a CPA (at least the traditional US-style Capacity Purchase Agreements), the major carrier defines what capacity/frequency they want on which routes, so the regional carrier has a more-or-less guaranteed revenue stream with relatively little risk (OK, the major could go bankrupt, but otherwise...) Thus it almost resembles a PSO route more than a franchise.

A good overview of US-style CPAs is here (http://enplaned.********.com/2005/12/lifting-corner-of-regional-airline-rug.html)

The message seems to be that the era of cushy CPA deals in the US is coming to an end, so the US regional carriers have to look elsewhere. As Virginblue mentioned earlier, Expressjet has announced the establishment of "Expressjet Europe" and is looking for customers among the European majors. (They claim to be able to deliver great economies of scale because of their US ERJ operation - but given that they'd be flying JAA/EASA-certified aircraft in Europe, and potentially wouldn't even be flying ERJ135/145s at all, it's not clear to me how attractive their proposition is.)

But this may be academic based on tomorrow's news...

C.

[marlowe]

of course the thing will crash at 7.01am tomorrow as everbody logs on and the IT dept wont have expected that to happen!!!

[tiggerific_69]

i noticed that the other day the link given on the postcard was a dead one but it now takes u to the intranet login pages where u choose ba or bacx intranet.how frustrating if it crashes tomorrow morning,especially as i am on leave at the moment!

[WOWBOY]

Does anyone know if the new/improved BACX will have it's own official website?

[flyer55]

Have heard it gets announced this week and the BA livery is getting dropped , have also heard that in BHX an RJ 100 has been badly damaged after an engine run does anybody know anything about it?

[tiggerific_69]

there is a thread in the flight deck forums under rumours and news titled "ground incident at egbb" there will be more information regarding the RJ100 incident in there.
The big announcement is tomorrow,this is what were waiting for,nobody knows what is gonna happen,whether there will be a new livery or what.
WOWBOY as the announcement has not yet been made,nobody knows anything except management,who are sworn to secrecy.

[Leviathan]

Cyrano
Thanks for the clarification, the whole CPA/ExpressJet Europe thing is quite interesting, it will be interesting to see how it plays out in Europe.
Leviathan

[MarsBar]

I think the website will work fine tomorrow, have some faith!!

[marlowe]

Mars Bar guess you the IT man then!!!!!

[tiggerific_69]

couldnt be anyone else saying it'll be fine!

[Itlbefine]

another one was them taking crew food off us.but then they wud have to stop nightstops/3 days trips & gv us allowances and longer turnarounds so we have time to get food & eat it.which wont work if they make us clean & want us on the ground less time.spose we'll just have to wait another 14 and a half hours and see what happens

This is exactly one of the reasons why low cost will never work. The attitude of some people is that they should have a 40-50 min break after every 40 to 60 min sector. Dont think the crew at Ryanair or Easyjet see it as a problem so why should you. :mad:

[marlowe]

a 40 or 50 min turnaround in the timetable allows you more flexibility allows you to recover from any disruption in the schedule once the low costs are behind schedule it affects the whole days flying for that airframe cos they are always chasing time, whereas if you have some down time it allows you chance to get back on schedule its not all about crew rest.

[Itlbefine]

a 40 or 50 min turnaround in the timetable allows you more flexibility allows you to recover from any disruption in the schedule once the low costs are behind schedule it affects the whole days flying for that airframe cos they are always chasing time, whereas if you have some down time it allows you chance to get back on schedule
Marlowe agree fully with that point and it is valid, however the more sectors you fly the more money making potential you have. If you keep the aircraft on the ground for an extra 20mins each turn round that could equate to an extra short return trip or an extra longer single sector per day. It also does not pay to have the aircraft sitting around all weekend making no money. The higher the utilisation the higher the potential revenue.
I admit higher utilisation also brings a higher likely hood of technical or handling delays but given that there is engineering support at all uk bases and contracted support abroad that should be better catered for than most low cost carriers.

[Volmet South]

I have been looking closely at the postcard again and suddenly, the penny has dropped. WW is mothballing the Embraer fleet.

wake up and smell the camphor !

[tiggerific_69]

itlbefine,i was only referring to longer turnarounds if they were expecting us to purchase food on the ground if they stopped supplying crew food,otherwise i dont see any other need for a longer turnaround

[tiggerific_69]

is everybody waiting.i am nervous & excited at the same time.im logged into the intranet but its not live yet,so im gonna keep refreshing the page & see what happens

[marlowe]

So thats it then the masterplan!!!!!!!! BA Connect flog sarnies slash fares!!

[Grand yahoo]

So save £8m on catering costs, sell catering on board £5m. Just £17m to find in increased revenue from £25 fares. easy really!

[tiggerific_69]

still cant see how its gonna work with the same aircraft.personally i dont think its that bad but some people ive spoken to already are reacting badly to it.cant get onto the new business plan anymore btw,comes up with "page not displayed" when you click the link.theres a surprise!!

[marlowe]

gonna be hard work down the back offering hot and cold items how many hot bits are you supposed to heat up? takes on average 25 mins to heat the hots so what happens when half way thru the sector someone decides they want a hot meal ?well you gonna offer that delicious cheese and coleslaw sarnie at £3.50 and then get the abuse cos they want to buy a hot meal it seems to me the management are not sure if the company should be a full service airline or a no frills one so have come up with this strange hybrid of the two oh well thats £5.60 sir sorry got no change !!!!

[False Capture]

Amazing to think BACX have just produced a business plan which doesn't contain base closures, fleet run-downs or network reductions.:}

[tiggerific_69]

i spose it will be something along the lines of Monarch scheduled where you can book your meal before hand.i spose it could be hot bits on the brekkie run,hot bits on the evening runs,and the lovely cheese sarnies at lunch time.pringles and kit kats anyone?spose it means i will have to bring a float to work with me now.ah well one good thing is we'll all eat less now they have to pay for food,hahaha!

[Hansol]

Unfortunately WW is doing all he is really capable of doing.... copying FR, that's how he achieved his so called success at Aer Lingus.
Hot food will be easy, wraps, pizza's, and toasties. It will mean very hard work for the guy's and gals down the back.

[splash&dash]

This is copied from BA.COM for those of you who may not have seen the press release.

British Airways’ regional subsidiary, British Airways CitiExpress, is to embark on a major drive to improve profitability and compete more aggressively in the UK regions.

The regional airline, to be renamed BA Connect, will bring significant benefits to regional air travellers by offering more choice and even lower fares with prices slashed by more than 40 per cent.

BA Connect will offer:
· A single class cabin on all aircraft.
· High-quality, buy on board, hot and cold catering.
· Year-round, changeable, one-way fares from as little as £25, including taxes, fees and charges.
· A new offering for business and frequent flyers called ‘BA Connect Plus’.

The major shake up will see restricted and non-changeable tickets disappear. All tickets will be changeable, no matter how little they cost*. British Airways’ Club Europe brand will no longer feature on the regional services to Continental Europe.
There will be two ticket types:
· ‘BA Connect’ - a non-restricted and changeable ticket*. Two million seats will be available, year- round, at the lowest prices. Travellers will also accumulate BA Miles on every fare.
· ‘BA Connect Plus’ – a non-restricted and changeable ticket with airport lounge access and instant seat selection at the time of booking included in the price. Prices will start from £110 one-way, including taxes, fees and charges. This fare level also allows travellers to earn Executive Club frequent flyer points and BA Miles.
All customers will be eligible for membership of British Airways’ Executive Club, as well as having access to on-line check-in, on-line boarding pass printing, self-service check-in and a valet bag service.

BA Connect will take to the air on March 26, 2006 and bookings will be made through the airline’s ba.com website from February 1 as well as through travel agents and the airline’s telephone reservations centres.

Prior to the official relaunch it is business as usual for customers who may continue to make reservations for British Airways CitiExpress services through the normal booking channels**

The re-launch will be supported by a major sales and marketing campaign and is part of British Airways’ drive to improve the profitability of its short-haul flight operations.

The aircraft livery and staff uniforms will remain unchanged, apart from the name ‘BA Connect’, which will appear on the fuselage.

Flights at London City airport, and also those of British Airways mainline at Heathrow and Gatwick, will continue to offer complimentary catering on shorthaul services and a separate Club Europe cabin on the European network.

David Evans, managing director British Airways CitiExpress, said: “The restructuring of the regional business will set us apart in this fiercely competitive market. We have an innovative service promise for business and short-break leisure air travellers, offering year-round, one-way prices that match the no-frills airlines and the added service promise and resources of an airline of British Airways’ size and stature.

“The move is a direct response to changing customer needs and the challenges that have emerged in the marketplace since the creation of British Airways CitiExpress. We know air travellers value British Airways’ distinctive brand and the wide range of benefits associated with a full service airline at competitive prices.”
Full details of the BA Connect fares and customer experience will be available on ba.com from February 1, 2006.

ends
January 10, 2006
Notes to editors:
British Airways CitiExpress historical data:
British Airways CitiExpress was created from four regional subsidiaries: British Airways Regional, Brymon Airways, Manx Airlines and British Regional Airlines, during 2001/2002

British Airways CitiExpress has 2,250 employees and 50 aircraft including: 28 x Embraer 145s; 10 x RJ100s; 8 x Dash 8; 4 x BAe146s

Destinations from main bases:
Manchester x 20
Birmingham x 14
Edinburgh x I 6
Bristol x 7
Southampton x 3
London City x3
The airline carried 3.8 million passengers last year and serves a total of 32 destinations from a total of 14 UK airports.

*Changes to tickets will incur a competitive £30 administration fee per transaction, with the exception of the highest level, refundable ‘BA Connect Plus fare’, which will be exempt from administration fees for changes.
** Customers with existing bookings, or making new bookings before Feb 1 for flights from March 26 will have the opportunity to change to the new fares or claim a refund without penalty
Countries served by British Airways CitiExpress from the UK regions include: Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Austria, Norway, Belgium and Switzerland.
UK airports served include: Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol, Luton, London City, London Gatwick, Southampton, Jersey, Isle of Man.
The daily Manchester/New York service is not affected by the changes announced today.

[Volmet South]

I have found the full story at http://crewconnect.bhx.uk.ba.com/commun/businessplan2006/index.html

"page cannot be displayed"


Silly name for an airline !

[CamelhAir]

Unfortunately WW is doing all he is really capable of doing.... copying FR

Just like FR copied southwest. And then only with great reluctance with CMcC pushing MOL into trying Southwest-like practices. There's nothing original about FR, not even the IR, which previously existed in Dickensian times.

[tallaonehotel]

BA Connect. Sounds like a call centre name.....

Doesn't seem like any job losses or closures yet?......
Still, plenty of time for that I suppose.

I don't think it will work, if we made a loss with high fares how the hell will we pull back millions with lower fares??. Maybe my education lets me down?

[marlowe]

So still gonna be a seperate club service and free catering on the london city routes in and out of europe then, how confusing is this gonna be!!! as i said what are we, no frills or full service airline? it seems were gonna be no frills on certain routes and full service on others why not just make our minds up and then we at least could all row the lifeboat in the same direction!!!!

[Pin Head]

It is very similar to JetStar, Qantas's low cost bit, but the major diffrence is they have 717 and A320's. They are expanding like hell.

I cant see it working!

[Volmet South]

I think the website will work fine tomorrow, have some faith!!

:rolleyes:

[Wycombe]

Some of this sounds very similar to the service model of an Exeter-based airline to me.

[skiddyiom]

BA Connect = BACON or worse, BA CON!

skiddy

[marlowe]

Of course the LCY services have to have the same service as LHR because BA do not want a lo cost operation on the otherside of the city nicking the pax from them even though they own the lo cost operation!! so once again BA have tied one hand behind BACX(BAC) back before they even start and i bet LCY routes will not be marketed inside the M25 circle as per normal ah well GO figure!!

[tallaonehotel]

Skiddy

Is that an offer of a BA CON bap?
Would someone put the lights out when we close down?.

2 years and counting.

[False Capture]

The daily Manchester/New York service is not affected by the changes announced today.
BACX services will change over the coming months. However, the Manchester/New York service isn't changing. Does this mean the JFK is no longer on the BACX AOC?

[TopBunk]

Of course the LCY services have to have the same service as LHR because BA do not want a lo cost operation on the otherside of the city nicking the pax from them even though they own the lo cost operation!!

What a load of piffle!

Jeez, talk about an inferiority complex! I suggest that the retention of Club Class ex-LCY is more to do with the yields from the city clientelle rather than your paranoia.

[skiddyiom]

BA Connect Business Airline Passenger = BA CON BAP
BA Connect Domestic Passenger = BA CONDOM

About all you can say really.

I just hope it works this time. I'm getting too old to go around chasing jobs!

skiddy

[marlowe]

Well BA have never marketed the LCY routes inside the M25 area before so why should they now? the FRA GVA DUS routes are only marketed outside the region simply because BA do not want to take pax from LHR now you can call it paranoia if it makes you feel better but its a fact.find me advertising for the LCY routes then ,try the BA website and it will offer you LHR to these destinations first before LCY as i said if BACX were allowed to offer cheap fares on these routes then LHR pax would use it i am also guessing you mainline??

[liquid sunshine]

I would be interested to know how the bean counters are going to balance the books after this one. We all know that the low cost model is based on volume to maintain yields but BACX, sorry BA Connect!, is going to adopt a low cost model with aircraft a third of the capacity of the most of the locos. this does not bode well for the lon term future of he company

[Max Tow]

Er...why BA Connect, since it doesn't (connect with BA routes)?

[gps117]

jfk is a mainline route and not on bacx aoc, therefore not affected

[Railgun]

jfk is a mainline route and not on bacx aoc, therefore not affected

And at last NWH has gone in for its refit.

[Itlbefine]

Low cost with 50 seat aircraft - have serious doubts about this one. Can't even see much revenue being generated on the shorter sectors from the sale of food etc as people will just wait until they land and get to the airport where they have a choice or wait until they reach their destination. Think it may be time to get the parachute looked out - Tick Tick Tick Tick

[Outoftheblue22]

An interesting development, but surprised the changes weren't deeper.

In many ways it would be good to see BA win back market share in the regions, where some of the mainstream locos have for too long been able to take advantage of BACX's rather tired and defensive (rather than proactive) position in that market.

But just not sure they've found the answer with this announcement.

A lot depends on how the marketing people bring it to life, but on the surface of it there is a vague statement about lower fares, and a very definite statement about less frills (eg no free catering). So it sounds like locos will still beat BA on price, and the product differential between loco and BA has been further eroded. So why fly BA?

I can to some extent understand the logic of stripping out the Club cabin on the 50-seaters, but don't see the logic of one-class RJ100 from, say, MAN into Europe, and two-class Airbus from, say, LHR to Europe. A real mixed message for the poor old customer. And dropping the Club cabin must mean the loss of premium customers on competed routes where their only reason for choosing BA over loco was because their employer allowed them the perk of flying business class.

I guess part of the rationale for BA mainline is to try some of this stuff in the regional marketplace - if it works, roll it out on mainline; if it doesn't, damage is confined to the regional business.

Anyway, what do I know. Interested to see how this develops.

[tallaonehotel]

re: "I guess part of the rationale for BA mainline is to try some of this stuff in the regional marketplace - if it works, roll it out on mainline; if it doesn't, damage is confined to the regional business".

I couldn't agree more with this statement from Outoftheblue22.

We will be a trial for a part of BA that is surplus to requirement, must give some credit to the management for buying us all more time to find new jobs?.

[tiggerific_69]

well for those of us at BHX we can always hope FlyWho takes off.....

[Outoftheblue22]

A question!

There's one thing I'm not getting here.

Is this a true "re-brand" in the eyes of the consumer (so, for example, advertising will be BA Connect, website will be BA Connect, etc etc).

Actually, website can't be baconnect.com as it's already taken.

Or is it just an "operated by..." post-script, so all the communication is BA, but the operating carrier is BA Connect?

[judge11]

If you believe that the good Lord did turn water into wine then stick with CX. If not, start looking elsewhere. How is tinkering, 'cos that is all it is, with catering and adding a bit of flexibilty to tickets going to turn around a £30 million loss on a dwindling share of the regional market. The harsh reality is that WW has chickened out from the drastic surgery and meaningful restructuring that is really required to make this 'plan' work. And David 'has anybody seen' Evans is still there to see yet another farce come into production. Miracles do happen - if you believe in the good Lord.

[TopBunk]

Marlowe

Yes, as it happens I do fly for BA ex LHR, but that is NOTHING to do with it.

You may well be right about the LCY flights being listed after the LHR flights to a given destination - there is nothing new about that. About 15 years ago if you wanted to travel from London to Milan, BA Reservations would not even recognise the LGW-Bergamo flights as London-Milan. So I have some sympathy with you on that score.

HOWEVER, my point is that while the regions in general cannot sustain a business class product (ie the incremental cost of delivering the product is less than the revenue it generates), in particular, due to the high yield business traffic ex LCY, then those routes warrant the product as the incremental yield is there.

I know that BA at present are continuing with business class at LGW, as again the yields make it presently worthwhile, but even there the yield is being continually eroded to the point that J class ex LGW may only have another 12 months or so of life, ie before 2007 is out you may well find that BA and its derivatives operate single class everywhere except LHR.

Whether or not BA Connect will be the saviour of the regions I am not convinced, I suspect that it is a last gasp effort to make it work and contribute to the 10% margins demanded. I doubt if BA Connect has the management, the infrastructure (planes/manning levels/employee contracts) in place for it to work. If it doesn't then I guess it could go the way of Buzz etc and become subsumed into a no frills operator (don't go along with the loco motif - they are often anything but).

Good luck!

[kenfoggo]

Big shame!
B.A. publically admit that with their HUGE cost base there is no way that they can make a profit on regional short haul sectors. Why do they not stop this death by a thousand cuts and give all the routes away to another operator, who , with greater expertise , a lower cost base , and greater management and people skills, WOULD be able to make the regions flourish instead of whither and die?

Good luck to mates still in there and not yet escaped.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

See little old me would have come up with a plan 180 degrees removed from this one.

I reckon there are plenty of people out there willing to pay more for a better service. I reckon roughly double whatever the main low cost airline competition is charging on the day would not be a problem. They charge £45 to Barcelona BACX should charge £90. But, you'd need an express checkin worthy of the name and no niggling about baggage weights. A lounge to wait in. A reliable operation with complimentary papers and wine on board AND the option of a decent meal for every pax on every sector. I wouldn't bother with airmiles or any other frippary.

The airfares are now routinely less than either the car parking, the car hire or a single night in the hotel. Offer something different, something better every time and I reckon you'd have a loyal and growing clientbase in no time.

Chasing the cost concious custom against the likes of Ryanair or easyJet is like getting into a bleeding competition against a blood bank.

But what do I know!

Cheers and good luck to all involved,

WWW

[zed3]

WWW..... bang on . As a user of BA (BACX) from DUS to MAN and vv about every six weeks or so to visit the UK I stand by the National Carrier . The timings and product are good - only that bl@@dy E145 is a pain , but it gets me there . Heaven knows how they are going to make a profit with fares of Lstg.25 and 45 seats ! This is a prime example of - modern 'management' , manipulating the yield , announce it's not working (making a profit for the shareholders) and dump the loyal customers and route . I would willingly pay a fair price above the Low Cost carriers , with a scheduled SERVICE , including , maybe not necessairily a meal (deli-offering , which I normally refuse) but at least a drink with my book . I consider myself a loyal customer , OK only 6-8 returns/year ,yet I have never been approached for my opinion . Something is missing here . ( Sorry , already have an answer to my own problem - modern 'management' ) ATC 'management' is also adopting the same attitude and method -WE know better and YOU will comply . Flexibility and service go out of the window . IT'S ALL ABOUT HANDLING PEOPLE , STUPID . I bet that within 18 months to two years BAW are not operating DUS-MAN route , as for ATC there are troubles ahead . The customer will be the loser and that's not surely right - certainly not in my book , anyway .

[akerosid]

With four different types - EMB145, Dash 8, 146/ARJ and ATP, they're going to need to focus on fleet standardisation pretty darn quickly; the 737s will still be needed at Gatwick, so perhaps this is an opportunity for Embraer to prove the low cost credentials of the EMB170-190 series.

Alternatives? I don't think the 318 is an option and the 319 is probably too large; even though it will be a low cost operation, they probably don't want to be replacing a 50 seater with a 150 seater; a fleet of 190/195s, with Embraer taking back the 145s (and as much else as possible) might be the way forward.

[VHF FLYER]

None of this inspires me.

I just wonder why no-one ever thinks of consulting mere passengers.
After all it is ultimately us and us alone that can ever make this a success. Think about it.

Are we likely to go back to BACX with these cosmetic changes?
NO.
In fact it may even disenfranchise those loyal customers that remain - the message I read from BACON is that regional passengers aren't quite worthy enough of a proper BA service.

To solve a problem - whatever it is - you need to understand the nature of it and I truely believe that no-one from Willie Walsh downwards has ever bothered to find out why people have been deserting BACX in their droves.

'After all what do the punters know?' seems to be an attitude that pervades the industry. The only possible answer from the punters to this kind of attitude will be 'sod 'em what do we care - let's just buy the cheapest thing on offer'. And they usually do nowadays.

Just to look at PPRUNE for instance - the expression 'self loading freight' just about sums it up. The impression one is left with is that passengers are a troublesome burden to the people that work in the industry.

There are many reasons why there are and, from this I can see, will continue to be, problems and I haven't got the time but as many on this thread have identified, a major issue for punters from the regions is the puny claustrophobic aircraft usually parked out on the taxiway away from the proper planes - the message being - you're not a proper customer.
EMB145s are awful and to be avoided and the RJ similarly bad - designed so that barely anyone can see out of the window and with a hydraulic system that sounds like you're in a death dive when the flaps are lowered.:yuk:

Ultimately can you imagine BA flying a full size aircraft between Manchester and Gdansk? Well Ryanair are about to do that from Liverpool with its much smaller catchment area (no doubt successfully) - something wrong eh?

[blahblahblah]

Surprised no one has mentioned this but considering todays announcement would I be correct in saying that for once bmi beat ba to it. Model sounds suspiciously similiar to the much maligned (on pprune anyway) mixed modal that bmi launched last year?:p

[Aerial Anarchist]

BACitiexpress The final countdown!

Wrong fleet
wrong management
wrong culture
wrong parent

set in it's ways
unionised in part
divided
Fat infrastructure
& more interested in "Flight monitoring" than making the business work


It can not change enough to make money - I fear bloodshed within a year

[Ametyst]

I think the problems stem from 1997 when BA underestimated the arrival of easyJet at Liverpool. The problem is that if BA/BACON give up anymore slots or routes up at Manchester then that would give "the big orange" a possible entrance into Manchester.

Wizz Air will be operating to Gdansk from Liverpool and a catchment area isn't really based on population but based on the routes served from a given airport. With regards to Gdansk, the catchment area from Liverpool is larger, than say the catchment for Malaga, because it is the only service to that city from the North of England/Midlands.

[EI-CFC]

I can see the logic of what they are doing, and the service they are trying to provide - but the fleet mix is definitely something which they need to address. It seems way too muddled and the 45 seaters are just wrong for this sort of operation.

[tiggerific_69]

A few of you have said that no one has asked the passenger.However,more often than is needed,Global Performance Monitor surveys are carried out on our flights,approximately 5 days out of a month.They are handed out to the passengers who fill them in.Comments i have seen a lot:
-a better meal needed rather than petty sandwich/croissant
-cheaper fares

and THIS is exactly what they are doing.offering people hot and cold food on flights.reducing the fares.YES i admit,they should keep club,because there are frequent flyers who use it.and these are the people we will lose.theyve already been telling the crew they'll fly with other carriers now BACX are dropping the business class.but theyve listened to the majority.to be honest they should have gone towards the Duo sort of service.Full works,all one class,BUSINESS CLASS,at reasonable prices.
but who am i to say what they should have done?im just the person who has to look after the passengers.

[dontdoit]

tiggerific - Surely going all Duo-style is the LAST thing they should have done. It was a nice idea, but it didn't work, it didn't get the punters, it didn't make money and ultimately it fell on its own arse. QED.

[Railgun]

Surprised no one has mentioned this but considering todays announcement would I be correct in saying that for once bmi beat ba to it. Model sounds suspiciously similiar to the much maligned (on pprune anyway) mixed modal that bmi launched last year?:p


Not really. The BMi one a gold card holder on a baby ticket gets no miles, gold card holder ona baby ticket gets no lounge access.

I would say it has moved the european routes closer to a shuttle style service. All one class, some people with Lounge access in the same cabin as people that do not have access. Only difference is all fairs are changable and you have to pay for food.

To be honest as well Business class is not worth keeping on a Emb as the only difference between that and economy is the fact that you get a different meal. Seat is exactly the same as the economy one.

[Centre cities]

If the 145 is to small for this model perhaps they should have retained the RJ100 that are just off to Swiss. Ah well a little late now.

Centre cities

[Captain Correlli]

Well, majority verdict seems to be thumbs down. Personally, I don't see what else we could have done, and at least it sort of takes on the competition head on. It deserves to work, but then, so did Operation Market Garden!!
The main problems are :
1 The planes. Too small, too many types, too expensive to operate on a pax/seat/mile basis.

2. And worse, our management. A proven track record of total wreckage, failure and incompetence. Whether we talk Fosse, (gone in disgrace), Evans (time server approaching a well heeled retirement), Hutchings (boy wonder who had insufficient experience, even less ability, but a huge ego), Phelan, (ha ha ha haha ha - Hutchings' brother in law, need I say more?) - I mean, there is just no capability to make anything work, as they have all repeatedly proved over the last few years.

Solution - a ballsy order of Emb 190s, a hiring of someone who knows how it all works (Cassani) - and then maybe we employees could look ahead with confidence and raised morale. As it is, well, just wait for it - Crew food will become a bag of sarnies, cabin crew will be forced to clean the cabins, turnround times will be reduced causing increased ADDs and unserviceabilities. And still, we won't have one formula. There will be (wait for it) an OMAN stating the five new cabin announcements depending on what service is being offered....Oh, why oh why, it could all have been so different.
Some comments here about selling us off - the question has to be that if the plan fails, who will want, or need to buy us and the incumbent fleets of inappropriate aeroplanes?:*

[VHF FLYER]

[QUOTE=Ametyst]The problem is that if BA/BACON give up anymore slots or routes up at Manchester then that would give "the big orange" a possible entrance into Manchester.

Why would that be a problem? A damned good thing IMHO. Didn't they originally want to opeate from MAN instead of LPL in the first place but couldn't get the slots - I'm sure I remember the Stelios TV interview at the time and thinking 'damn!':{

Still they manage to make it work out of three London airports, why not two in the NW ?- 2nd biggest concentration of population in the UK.
I see BA/BACON becoming an irrelevance in time if this is the best idea they can come up with. I would however see this as a positive, if it persuaded EZY into MAN.

[Grand yahoo]

Captain Correlli........re: fosse Noo Fosse should have been kept! Look at him now soaring up at the top of BA. He must thank the day his colleagues helped him pack! Many will agree that this may have been the right moment to clear out the top shelf. including the man behind the man - SW - and get some fresh management with no baggage or egos who can do the best with what they have.

[BEagle]

One wonders whether one will be able to buy a bacon sandwich on board these ba con-trick flights?

Still, at least it gives the BHX-FRA LH Business Class customers a bigger stick to hit their bean counters with. "Why should we pay so much for your dumbed-down cabin service and flights at unacceptable times when your main competitor on this route undercuts your prices by several hundred Euros?"

[MarkD]

Willie could always trade in some 145 options for say 190/195s... seem to be going down well with AC pax, if not their ground staff.

[Volmet South]

At least BACON will still allow luggage to be checked for free.... unlike Flybe from February 1st.

Flybe, one of Europe’s leading low cost airlines, today announces its new ‘Fair Deal on Baggage’ for air travellers, which will come into effect in early February for 2006. Under the ‘Fair Deal’:
- If you do not carry checked baggage, you will no longer have to pay the cost of carrying other peoples bags and will save £1 off your ticket
- Flybe will double the weight allowance that can be carried as hand baggage.
- Flybe will remove excess baggage charges for 99% of the travelling public by increasing hold baggage allowance to 25kgs (the highest in the low cost sector).
- Flybe will exempt all economy plus passengers from paying any baggage costs (up to 30kg).
- Flybe will introduce charges for each checked item of hold baggage of £2, per item, per sector, if booked in advance, and £4 per item, per sector if presented un-booked at the airport
- As a result of the change passengers will now only pay for the service they use rather than the cost being unfairly spread across all passengers on the aircraft whether they check a bag in or not
Flybe has been a leading innovator in the low cost sector, and see this development as the next logical step for this vibrant part of the aviation industry, undoing a historical inequity, in which the cost of handling baggage has been spread across all travellers, regardless of how much baggage they bring on board. Flybe see this move as a further development of its fair and transparent pricing strategy.
The pioneering move will be revenue neutral for the average consumer. Currently just over 55% of consumers check baggage into the hold of Flybe aircraft, Flybe expects this number to drop slightly to 50%. With Flybe’s announcement of a £1 universal cut in fares, plus the £2 on-line check in charge, the average price paid by consumers will not increase. Flybe will however be able to drive operational efficiencies through the ability to profile estimates of baggage to be carried, and in quicker turnaround times, that will create savings for the company. These savings will be ploughed back in to the airline further reducing fares for consumers over the next few years.
Jim French, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Flybe said: “For the first time passengers checking bags onto flights will pay for the service they use rather than the cost being unfairly spread across all people on the aircraft. With passengers pre-booking baggage we will be able to accurately predict the volume of baggage to be carried allowing us to handle flights with exactly the right levels of resource. This will speed up turnaround times, reduce costs and provide us with much greater operational flexibility. “
Flybe is a leader within the low cost airline sector and is continually looking at managing operational performance and keeping costs for passengers as low as possible. On Flybe flights around 45 per cent of passengers only have hand baggage, and this figure is expected to rise to over 50 per cent with the increased hand baggage allowance.
“This change in the way that we operate is about creating a fairer environment for our passengers and gaining operation efficiencies and savings which can be passed onto our customers. At Flybe we’re constantly looking for ways to put transparency and choice at the heart of our customer offering and we believe this pioneering move does just that. We are confident that other airlines will follow our lead.
Flybe’s innovative lead allows passengers to book on-line, reserve a seat on-line, and in Spring 2006 check-in on-line. Therefore passengers travelling without baggage will go straight to the boarding gate, having spent an average of 4 minutes completing the on-line integrated booking process. Flybe aims to deliver to the consumer, an experience that minimises the time booking and time spent at the airport, removing the need to queue and cutting down hassle ” added Jim French.
Flybe baggage charges will be introduced from 16th December for flights booked from 1st February and apply to all flights. Passengers who will be checking in bags can pre-book these online at the same time they but their tickets. Late booking of bags can be carried out at check-in, but will cost £4 for 25kg rather than £2.
What does 10kg really mean?
The average stay for Flybe passengers is 3 days so the increased hand baggage allowance gives more than enough room for an overnight bag for this length of stay:
X 2 pairs of jeans
X 2 jumpers
X1 pair on trainers
X4 T-shirts
Underwear
Make-up bag
Toiletries bag
Belt
Hair Straighteners
All under 10kg!

What's next.... coin operated khazis ?

[The Little Prince]

I hope it all works, and I wish the very best of luck to all my old muckers still in CX. It was a real wrench leaving after a decade in the outfit, I wish that I hadn't felt it necesary, and I wish I'd done it earlier. However, congrats to BACX, at least they're trying a new approach, though I fear it's a toss-up as to which is more wrong, the equipment or the management.
Interesting to hear the SLF input here and on the Rumours thread, I wonder how much of reality it repreents - I think most pax DO vote with their wallets!

Good luck to all!:ok:

[skianyn vannin]

Just as an aside, does anyone know what Fossils bigshot managment job in BA actually is?

[rhythm method]

MarkD

Unfortunately, it's a real catch 22 situation here.

We have 2 years to turn a profit. BA will not invest in new equipment unless we make a profit first. It is extremely unlikely that a profit can be made by turning 'low-cost' while using the current fleet which is unsuited to such a market.

It really does feel like a temporary stay of execution and nothing more.

rm

[judge11]

Yes, was wonderng that myself. Last reports were that his meteoric rise had stalled quite badly.

Two years to sort out the mess. See http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,16781,1683496,00.html

The clocks running and the bets are on. Good luck to all tho' a new management team would go a long way to reducing the 'luck' element.

[False Capture]

skianyn vannin,
Flight Technical Manager.

[Cutoff]

I have just received this from FlyBe, they have responded.
http://ebm.cheetahmail.com/c/tag/BDxPylAQYb-pAb-74mATikbmTM/doc.html

[tiggerific_69]

i think its quite shocking.the last thing we need :(

[brabazon]

Why's Willie giving it another 2 years? They should pull the plug sooner than that if this is the best they can come up with? Duo lasted barely a few weeks with this strategy, JetMagic not much longer.

[aeulad]

Anyone have a source for the BA connect route map?

Regards

Mike

[tiggerific_69]

ive got it saved as a pdf from the intranet but its pretty much the same as before as far as i can see

[skiddyiom]

With four different types - EMB145, Dash 8, 146/ARJ and ATP, they're going to need to focus on fleet standardisation pretty darn quickly; the 737s will still be needed at Gatwick, so perhaps this is an opportunity for Embraer to prove the low cost credentials of the EMB170-190 series.
Alternatives? I don't think the 318 is an option and the 319 is probably too large; even though it will be a low cost operation, they probably don't want to be replacing a 50 seater with a 150 seater; a fleet of 190/195s, with Embraer taking back the 145s (and as much else as possible) might be the way forward.
Sid, its bad enough without you telling everyone we still have ATP'S!!! We don't, thank the lord, so thats one nail less in the coffin! :8
And DE assures us that the 170/190 is too heavy. What the hell he means by that I have no idea! Any flying chaps care to comment?
Not that we can have new aircraft, but it's nice to dream occasionally!:{
skiddy

[splash&dash]

brabazon

duo lasted a lot more than 'a few weeks' more like 6 months! and their main downfall was due to 1 of the 3 major investment companies pulling out and poor marketing and not on poor pax figures alone.
granted, their pax figures were low initially, but so are all new start ups? but they were increasing at a steady rate just before they ceased trading which showed there definately was/is a niche for a lower cost business class product.
as a major aviation magazine said, given another 6 months duo would have turned the corner but obviously we will never know.
imho ba-connect should follow the duo product and offer something unique a try and keep both the business and economy pax by providing a service that no other uk lo-co operator delivers.

i wish them all the best though as a change was urgently needed.:ok:

[brabazon]

Splash

OK Duo lasted more than a few weeks, but the fundamental problem is the higher seat costs of operating 50 seat regional jets compared to the 150 seaters of the LCCs and trying to offer similar fares. Basically the economics don't work and will get worse unless costs are cut dramatically - where? - and if fuel costs rise again.....

[Skipness One Echo]

DUO wasn't a start up. It was a former BA franchisee (as Maersk UK and Birmingham European)who branched out up against the big boys with a meaningless silly name, a forgettable corporate identity and was as a management buy out, underfunded and vulnerable. It went bust. Big surprise to dreamers and marketing men everywhere.

[halitosis]

Why's Willie giving it another 2 years? They should pull the plug sooner than that if this is the best they can come up with? Duo lasted barely a few weeks with this strategy, JetMagic not much longer.

Guinea pigs - probable blue print for all short haul if successful ??????
:ok:

[tiggerific_69]

that seems to be the theory so far

[Flightrider]

I see what is being said about no new fleet, but simply painting a new name down the side of the 145s and cutting out catering is going to do virtually nothing to help the BA costbase on these routes.

Just musing on that one, there could be an interesting project if someone felt adventurous. Mesaba (Northwest Airlink) is having its contract with NW for operation of the RJ85s terminated as they are "too expensive". They are, in fact, operated in 69-seat configuration because of Northwest's ALPA scope close instead of the 97 seats that you can get into an RJ85. Anyway, these RJ85s are being phased out. Coincidentally, Mesaba has 28 of them - exactly the same number as BA Connect has Embraer 145s.

One for one swap, anyone?

You'd move rapidly towards a much more efficient fleet and I'm sure that the running costs per seat of an RJ85 must be way below a 145. They would get more seats for all of these extra thousands of passengers to come flocking to BA Connect, and an aircraft capable of producing seats at lower cost than the current 145s. OK, there would be some sizeable transition costs but if you spread those over five years, it could work.

[tiggerific_69]

suggest it to management,PLEASE!RJs are better than nothing!

[spanishflea]

Flightrider: Might be nice but Mesaba aren't going to want a bunch of ERJs as they've just started taking on new CRJs instead.

[spagiola]

Mesaba (Northwest Airlink) is having its contract with NW for operation of the RJ85s terminated ... Mesaba has 28 of them ....

Actually, they have 35.

[VHF FLYER]

No No No
RJ s are a horrible passenger experience, especially in the 3+3 configuration. Just awful.
EMB145s puny tiny.
DHC8 Surprisingly comfortable but god noisy.

Passengers might come back for a quick look especially if they can go somewhere for £25 but when they realise it's not British Airways after all and they experience the hardware on offer, they'll be going back to the £1.99 on a proper aircraft.
Plus a comedy moniker like BACON..
So disappointing...WW did a fine job of turning Aer Lingus round. Dublin has a smaller airport and catchment area than Manchester - would he have succeeded at EI if he'd been using EMBs and a pot of paint?

[tiggerific_69]

Rjs are a horrible crewing experience too!!it seems the only way everyone thinks this will work is by having bigger aircraft,which unless we have 737s from LGW,really isnt going to happen.Everyone else can see its not gonna work.so Why do WW and DE think it will?

[Railgun]

it seems the only way everyone thinks this will work is by having bigger aircraft,which unless we have 737s from LGW,really isnt going to happen.Everyone else can see its not gonna work.so Why do WW and DE think it will?

Because BA have said they will not invest any large sums of money in BACX as they have in the words of a Waterside manger "wasted enough money". Also it would seem that LGW will not be having any investment untill it to turns a profit so they will not be loosing the 737's.

[HZMIS]

Many relevant comments made here that are very pertinent. Might it be time for WW to appoint an outside CEO for CX, not someone who will return to BA if the whole thing fails. Those of you that have seen todays 'Business' papers will see that BA is top of the Pension Dept mountain with one pundit sugesting that BA delares itself bankrupt. The size of the dept and the blind passion for achieving 10p in the £1.00 leaves CX on a very weak basis, for in the end WW will get shot of it if he can make money on a sale. Those of us that can look back to BRAL, Maersk and City Express (LGW) et al; Surely the staff were far more secure / BA earned much more in those days.

[brabazon]

Would anyone buy BACON? If so what would get for your money? Alternatively shut it down and then someone like Eastern could start operating some of the services!!

[flyer55]

As somebody who used to work on the ATR'S and RJ 100's at LGW for Cityflyer not City Express they were ideal for the short hops such as AMS, DUB, ORK, SNN, NCL, some destinations , however nobody seems to know what BA are planning with Aircraft maybe their waiting to get an offer from Boeing/Airbus , who knows!!

[MarkD]

Funny how EI are acquiring new 320s hand over fist while BA play the poor mouth. I know they're paying down debt but surely some expansion can be done.

[Porky Speedpig]

People seem a bit obsessed with the idea of large aircraft being more popular than small. I would rather be in the back row of a 49 seat EMB145 than a 190 seat 737. In my experience the valet service on BA Connect together with rapid deplaning means you can be out of the airport much quicker than on a loco.

[flyer55]

Porky very good point , if they get their act together it would be very good for Connect!

[Cutoff]

I agree, I fly BACX a number of times per year and I have to say that it is ALWAYS a much quicker and smoother flow from airport to aeroplane, and vice veras than with other Locos. I personaly prefer the EMB 145 to most other aircraft I have flown too, for me there seems to be more room, and I for one tend to decline the currently served hot meals as we all know what they are like, they are something to do rather than something to eat...and I would prefer the option of a nice sandwich, or simply a tea. I think that this change is not all bad.

Further there are times currently where I would change my flight to an earlier one / later on to accomodate my meetings in Europe, but I do not as the ticket is not transferable. Now that it will be, I will, I suspect, change my flights from time to time and therefore free up my seat on other flights, hence more capacity - I realise that you need more passengers for this increased capacity, but hopefully a clever marketing campaign could sort that out.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Why do people think that the 145 is cramped? Ok when you're standing up it may be, but when you're in your seat (and you should be whilst airbourne) you'll find that the cabin is quite spacious. Most people seem to have a little joke when they get on the Barbie jet about the size of the a/c, but you get few compliants.

[Red Snake]

I'm glad someone else said that - I thought I was just weird. The 145 is great inside - quick to board & exit & no middle seat. What the 145 doesn't have is a business class seat - now it doesn't pretend to. But the customers still get the lounge access, executive points and flexible tickets. And we hopefully fill the rest of the plane with cheap tickets.

Is that stupid?

I'll get my coat.....

[marlowe]

positive comments about BA Connect!!!!! whats going on here?? after deliberating for a few days and seeing the presentation roadshow i think it could work i just wish they would clear out the dead wood at the top management level and bring in some fresh people to really make a GO of it

[Captain Jumbo]

Hey Jenks, that's not quite accurate! The Airlines of Britain Group used to comprise, BM, Loganair, London City Airlines and Manx. London City couldn't make money, and was closed. (Ahead of its time really!) Loganair was chosen to expand, but couldn't, and the emphasis was placed by Bish on expanding via Manx Airlines, a highly successful regional venture. This was built all on the back of a highly profitable IOM - LHR route, using slots acquired from BM. The profits built and built, and enabled develoment of a whole tranche of routes, even using the horrible J41s only there because of the ineptitude of Loganair (goes back to 146s in fact, but that's a long story!) Anyway, Manx then formed BRAL, which cut a deal with BA to operate unprofitable BAR routes, 9bit of a theme here!) and made even more money from BA since these were not straight franchises, but earned a minimum seating guarantee from BA. Now, Ayling screwed up, and his successor decided to expand. For geopolitical reasons, involving various American airlines, BA needed more LHR slots, so to acquire the six daily Manx slots, they bought the newly floated Company for a song. They are thus relatively unconcerned with the Company's performance, since that wasn't the idea of the purchase in the first place.
Where we go from here though - let's just hope it all works; though I echo the concerns of many, not just the equipment but the leadership - HOW THE F#CK does Evans keep his job???

[nickmanl]

According to Ryanair BA Connect 'is using British Airways oldest, smallest and slowest aircraft.'

Coming for an airline which up until very recently used the 732, one of the loudest aircraft around, and up until 1994 operated the ROMBAC 1-11 and currently operate underpowered 738s?

I thought the 145s are from 2001 so they're not really that old?

Christ, pot calling the kettle black springs to mind.

[marlowe]

The Bendy jet is as quick as anything Ryanair have, smaller yea, ok flight deck you may now discuss the speed differences between the two types!!!!!

[Tandemrotor]

Flying on a barbie jet, may or may not be a pleasant experience. That much seems to be personal preference.

I have to say though, that being on board a small aeroplane may be fine when it's half full with people paying premium prices for their tickets. However, when it is completely full (we hope!) with the 'stag' and 'hen party' brigade, it may be a slightly different experience!

However, the only 'truth' that is important in this case, is whether 'no-frills, low prices' can work in a business model based on a 49 seat a/c.

As I think I have said before, this will be a very interesting experiment.

Maybe BA Con are onto something? I hope they are.

[Kirkwall]

I understand that ladies travelling alone like the barbie because they have the option of the single seat thus taking away any risk of being trapped against the window by some smelly greasy perv with wandering mitts.

The cabin divider curtain was rather silly though and I am so glad that it has gone.

Only problem is the lack of locker space, but the vallet service is good when it works and the baggage handlers turn up. Having said that, when it has gone wrong, I have seen pilots climb into the hold to retrieve hand baggage. Bags delivered to the customer at the bottom of the steps by the captain! That's the BACX service.;)

[Dash-7 lover]

If its caught the attention of Ryanair and Flybe amongst others then it's done the trick. BA Connect will make money and prove that you can have low fares and quality without all this 'lo-cost' brainwashing. I'm still convinced that there is and has never been a 'lo-cost' anything. This has been the most successful marketing gimmick known to man - BA already have cheap fares and are competitive but the public couldn't see that - once BA Connect is up and running we can give French and O'Leary a run for their money. Bring it on!!!!

ps. If we can also knock ailing BMI for six then jobs a good-un

[stalling attitude]

dash 7 lover. i dont work for Ryanair but do you really think that ryanair are going to be troubled by BA Connect when Ryanair have i believe several hundred million pounds tucked away in cash in the bank. They could buy BA connect several times over and barely notice any difference in their bank balance. that said i think that hurting flybe on competing routes is a possibility but only a slim one.
it is sad to see one of my previous employers seemingly, in my opinion, in the last chance saloon. i sincerely hope that i am proved wrong and this works for them.

[Dash-7 lover]

Stalling Attitude,

Ok, you might well be right but someone's bubble is going to burst this year...

[judge11]

I hope that this latest plan does work but I believe that CX gave up too many routes and bases as part of the early cost-cutting measures instead of going head-to head with the likes of flyBE. The surrender of Southampton is a prime example; CX pulled out of Newcastle and Easy are in befroe the last light is turned out in the CX crewroom. BACON may be too little and far too late.

[Red Snake]

It must have needled Ryanair somewhere for them to have made the announcement they did.

I tried to book BRS-DUB on Ryanair at a week's notice for a 24 hour trip - it was £226. Ended up flying Flybe from SOU which was £100 cheaper but still over £100. The LCCs are only cheap if you book in advance & when business people don't want to travel.

There is a gap in the market for sensibly priced tickets with some customer service that the LCCs do not fill. The challenge is can we fill it? I think it's worth a try.

[False Capture]

Kirkwall,... trapped against the window by some smelly greasy perv with wandering mitts.
Sounds like the flight-deck of an Embraer is no place for innocent young ladies.:uhoh:
However, if you're refering to an RJ100 skipper then he's returned to BA.:}

[Aerial Anarchist]

Let's put this in perspective a little from a operating cost culture

1) taxy on stand at BHX in your 145/RJ
2) Shutdown
3) get met by BA employed cleaners on final salery pensions(your not)
4) go to crew room to check disruption payments so far this month
5) go to staff car park after maybe doing only one sector

It ain't like that any place else! The need for radical change at BACX/Connect is huge my friends and you all need to participate.

[flyer55]

Jenkins regarding your point re the RJ 100's yeah they were Cityflyer. However, Cityflyer did get bought by BA for 70 million , the 1st franchise then Subsidiary and the one that made the most profit . Since the buyout that the staff were balloted on which merged with BA Eurogatwick to form BA Eurofleet yes Mainline , where the RJ 100's that entered Mainline and then reallocated to the Regions,

[HZ123]

AA is correct and he is not on his own. All of BA need to awake to the realities ?

[Ba-con]

We now have a management decree that we are not to refer to BACON as BACON!!
What sort of management publish such edicts that will obviously promote further use of such abbreviation? Simple - BACON management (yes they are simple). :ugh:

[Volmet South]

So that makes the 146/RJ fleet "Smokey Bacon".

Most companies do a sanity check along the lines of "what will the new name be abbreviated to ?". This may be why there is no BOLsover & LOXley Building Society. The marketing fluffies must be having too much nutmeg on their lattes.

Oh well, out of the frying pan........

[jamesbrownontheroad]

Most companies do a sanity check along the lines of "what will the new name be abbreviated to ?". This may be why there is no BOLsover & LOXley Building Society. The marketing fluffies must be having too much nutmeg on their lattes.

And on a similar note, next time you bump into someone who speaks Spanish as a first langauge, be sure to ask them why the Mitsubishi Pajero had to be called the Mitsubishi Shogun in Hispanic countries... :mad:

*j*

[Aerial Anarchist]

Muppetry has occured.

[VHF FLYER]

A recent experience has convinced me that the whole BACON thing is not sustainable.
I recently flew Manchester - Frankfurt return in C Class both ways.
On the outbound leg, I flew on a EMB145 with a total of 14 passengers on board (including me). The flight although quite pleasant, arrived rather late, for no apparent reason, just late.

On the return leg I flew in a LH A321 - a proper plane - sorry but it is IMHO.
The back end was near as damn it full and there were 23 passengers in the C Class cabin which is considerably more than the entire uplift of the BACON flight. On top of that, the experience was a true pleasure (but why always cheese with everything LH?) and we arrived exactly on schedule.
People do tend to vote with their feet.