Flying Instructor or Airline Pilot????

[mazzy1026]

After several months of being a member of the PPRUNE community, it appears to me that everybody wants to do the one thing "be a commercial airline pilot".

However, I am different. I dont want to be an airline pilot. My main goal is to become a flying instructor - probably part time.

Am I mad to say this ? Am I the only one ? People here usually say they would be a flying instructor just to build hours towards flying for an airline.

I have good prospects in the IT industry and will graduate next year. I will start PPL training then everything else etc then would be happy to look for some instructing work part time as well as my IT career.

Is anybody else in roughly the same boat and how difficult is it these days to become an instructor ?

I have read so many negative things about being an instructor - the main one being the lack of pay - but this is why I would settle for part time - I just love flying and teaching other people - passing on knowledge to help others.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

Lee :ok:

[AIRWAY]

Hello,

Yes me two, until recently i was aiming towards an airline pilot career, and maybe that will be my goal, but for now i am concentrating in getting my PPL and then my Uni studies in Australia which will follow later on.

Im not rulling out and Airline Career at the moment i have so many decisions to make, and i cant make my mind up, i wish i could have all of it, but i can't. :sad:

I wouldnt mind instructing and doing charter work around Australia, that would be a great experience. :} :ok:

[Pilot Pete]

Mazzy

There are always the two types of flying instructor at most schools - the ones who are hour building and the ones like yourself who are doing it for the love of it.

There are two sides to everything and indeed just because someone wants to go on to an airline career it does not necessarily make them a bad instructor. I met two of the best instructors during my training and they were both from this stable.

What I would say is that the career instructors tend to be the ones who provide the continuity at a school and it could be argued that they eventually do become better instructors due to their vast instructing experience. I know that is a mass generalisation, as they can get set in their ways just as much, but I think if you are doing it for the pure love of it then that must be reflected in your attitude and instructional style.

So with that in mind I think you are going to have your cake and eat it! Instruct for the love of it, and earn a decent wage which will allow the lifestyle choices that you (probably) want to make from IT.

I think the majority of posters in the 'Wannabes' forums (fora?) are by definition wannabe airline pilots, hence why they tend to view instructing as a way of keeping current and building hours after qualification. Perhaps the view might be slightly different in the Flying Instructors and Examiners forum?

I wish you well with your choices.

PP

[mazzy1026]

PP

Thanks for your reply - I agree completely with what you say. Sorry if you thought I was having a go at the hour builders - didnt mean anything by this at all - no offence intended, just a way of categorising I suppose!

I read a thread the other day from a guy who flies airlines - and he detailed the negatives of it all, like long haul, crap hotels, low pay etc. He/she was saying how every flight becomes routine and the same - I dont know but this is what was said.

I would be the happiest guy to be able to just get up in the morning, drive to my local airfield (Liverpool John Lennon) and teach people to fly in a Piper ! What a life eh ! :)

I'm already trying to get some ground duties there to start me off and help in my training so hopefully this will be successful.

Best wishes

Lee :ok:

[Malcolm G O Payne]

If I may add my bit,(alittle late), you will have far greater job satisfaction as a career instructor. I flew for almost fifty years before the docs pulled my licence. More than half of it was instructing, the rest being in other GA jobs, plus 8 years RAF, but it still gives me great pleasure when I come across a former student who still remembers that I sent them on their first solo.
Financially a disappointment, but great satisfaction.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Don't ignore the crap students with no aptitude an attitude and who mess you about. The marginal weather, the ropey aircraft and the huge responsibility involved.

Don't forget that the career or hours building instructors will hate you for your casual labout - don't really need the money, do it for fun - status. You undermine them.

Consider that teaching S&L, Circuits, Area Nav blah blah can get very very dull after a while. Loads of fun for a while but maybe a but repetitive and limited over a number of years...

Good luck though. Its better than NOT being a pilot/instructor.

Cheers

WWW

[dorosenco]

Mazzy1026,

I'm part of that group who loves teaching but I'm doing it to built time. So, don't forget that there are instructors out there who love it and do it for hour building also.
As an airline job, it WILL become routine sooner or later. Sometimes I'm getting tired of doing circuits over and over again with some lazy students. Good students are going very fast through the training and finish in a short period of time, so I don't really have time to enjoy them ... Sometimes I'm getting tired of flying the same old crap airplanes with always something not working properly and making no money.

It really depends on the lifestyle that you are looking for. If you want to be home every night and fly only out of your local airport then go for instructor. If you want to see the world, make descent money and don't mind being away from home as well as fly more sophisticated machines than a PA28 or C152, then go for the airlines ...

good luck anyway,
:ok:

[mazzy1026]

Guys - thank you for all your reply's they are superb.

I don't want anyone to think that I have something against the hour building pilots who instruct for a while - I have a lot of respect for anyone flying whatever they do and have nothing whatsoever against anybody doing this.

I think at first it is a lot of peoples dreams to fly the airlines but over time and after being a member here, I have realised that the route to airline pilot is impossible if you do not have a lot of money to train yourself. The job opportunities simply aren't there.

I think in time I probably could do all the training but it would take a long time. What's more is that no matter what job you are in - it will always become routine and different to when you first started - every single job has it's drawbacks but I would rather have drawbacks doing what I love, than sitting at this desk I'm at now.

I think instructing part-time would be brilliant. It would cure my bug for flying and I would still be able to fly privately after all - it's not all teaching lazy students ! Working full time in IT would leave my weekends/evenings free (I hope) to go flying and earn some more money (however low the wage is).

Best of luck everyone and I hope you land the airline jobs.

Lee :ok:

[jerezflyer]

Happy New Year everyone:

I would like some good advice, educated guesses and opinions.

Let me set the scene briefly: 35 y/o (going on 36), married, one child, professionally qualified and in well paid employment as a project manager, PPL hopefully by the end of the month...........and a passion for flying since childhood and serious about a career change (if viable).

I have done very extensive research on becoming a professional pilot (courses, prices, requirements, pprune, etc.), and I believe I understand more or less how the complex world of flight training works.

The way I see it two paths are open for me:
1.Become a career instructor (cheaper, quicker and less risk)
2. Attempt to become airline F/O material (expensive, longer and more risk).

As far as the training goes, for path 1, I would go: CPL ground, CPL flight training and FI course. Maybe after a few years instructing do a single engine IR.

Path 2 would go, something like this: ATPL ground, ME/IR, CPL, MCC with perhaps an FI.

In terms of my situation, the job prospects for "mature" pilots and the relative merits, pros and cons of each choice - which way would you advise me to go? Is it best to stick to the safer option or dive straight into becoming an airline pilot at (almost) 36??

I have read all the previous threads on this subject, and they have been informative.

Thanks for any opinions.

jerezflyer

[no sponsor]

Has your research covered the wages paid to flying instructors? PPL instruction is woefully bad in terms of cash. CPL/IR instruction is much better paid, but you will need an IR and ME to do this, plus a good level of experience with PPL instruction. So unless you can live on poor wages for 12-24 months, you might not want to spend the cash in the first place.

I would go straight for the ATPL exams, rather than the writtens for CPL and the IR.

[Luke SkyToddler]

36 aint that old ... I'd go airline pilot all the way

Just because everyone in this forum is obsessed with getting into a handful of finicky top-shelf jet operators doesn't mean there isn't plenty of turboprop, corporate and regional jet operators who'd hire you just as readily as any other punter with an FATPL.

And no sponsor is right w.r.t. FI wages, they are appalling and in some cases non existent for low hour FI's, don't go down that road unless you are prepared to factor in the hidden cost of trying to live for nothing / pay the mortgage etc. Things may have improved in the 3 or 4 years since I last instructed but for example, as a PPL instructor I was on a £500 / month basic retainer and £6 per hour flown - i.e. £800 gross, before tax, per month, was a good month for me :(

It's harder now than it used to be to get into the well paid instructing, i.e. ME and IR stuff, as well with all these requirements for multi engine PIC before you can even start to go down that road.

[Dnathan]

Why not both?

As far as I know, the best way to build hours today is still flight instruction. If you take your IR and ATPL's now you save the CPL written exams.

When you get your FI licence, and especially if you get your ME FI license, you will become more attractive to the airliners. I don't know how things look in the UK by now, but in the US you can 'easily' get at least an airliner interview with say 400 hours multi out of 1200 TT.

And for the record, I believe you will need an instrument rating do to any kind of flight instruction.

Cheers

[Luke SkyToddler]

Very different here in the UK Dnathan

You don't need an instrument rating to instruct, in fact most instructors don't have one.

You can't just go and do an ME instructor rating either, I believe the minimum requirement to even sit the multi instructor flight test is 100 hours multi PIC (and who's going to buy THAT at £350ish per hour just so they can instruct?) Multi instructing seems to be pretty much the domain of crusty old ex- airline pilots over here.

[Fan Marker]

For heavens sake, stick with your own profession. The romance of aviation is just a dream. Airlines are rubbish firms to work for. Corporate operators are either rubbish or psychotic. Instructing can be fun, but often not well paid (as previously stated).
What you should do is to develop your existing career and fly for fun. You could even instruct for fun but don't expect to achieve a fulfilling new career in aviation from this late start. You command respect at the moment but you will have to kow-tow to the most idiotic people and requests if you start out in aviation. You are too old to be taken seriously and you will end up disapointed and disillusioned. This is the reality that people seem unwilling to recognise. Sorry to give you the bad news.
PS Please please please dont ask the opinion of the flying schools. They won't tell you the truth.

[portsharbourflyer]

There seems to be a niche for everyone, I have one colleage whom at the age of forty just got his first airline job. I called into my old training school a year back, managed to get talking to a Captain from a corporate operator, he told me at the age of 27 (now 28) he considered me too young to work in the corporate field , as it was necessary to present a mature image to the customers, irrespective of the actual experience of the person.

You can do most of the training on a part time basis while keeping your job (IR will need to be done full time), it will be hard work, exhausting; at the end of the day the worst thing that happens is your still in your current job and part time instructing. At best you get the break and get a flying job of some description. To instruct multi you will need an unrestricted FI rating, 30 hours of multi p1 piston time and a five hour MEI upgrade course, I know of several multi instructor who do not have an airline background. Search the instructors forum and you will see the requirements for teaching IR.

[FlyingForFun]

Not all that much to add to the previous posts, except that I am a little further down the road of career instructor, so thought I might relate my experiences so far.

First of all, do take note of all of the posts about instructor wages. As a PPL instructor, you can expect an absolute maximum of 10-12K - much lower than that in winter, when shorter days and bad weather stop you from doing so much flying. As a married man with a child, are you sure your family can support themselves on that kind of wage? Also, would your family be happy moving around the country? There are around 100 PPL schools in the country, and around 20 CPL/IR schools - with numbers like that, you will have to take any job offer which comes along, regardless of where in the country it is, if you want to make a living out of instructing. I was single when I started out on the flying instructor thing, with no kids. I am now engaged, but my fiancee has always known from the day we met what my career aspirations are, and is more than happy to support me through it, financially if necessary as well as in other ways, but if I had a partner or kids before I started out, I don't think I would have done it.

As others have said, the only way of making money out of being a flying instructor is to teach CPL/IR. In order to do that, you will need a CPL/IR yourself. The training path I took was this:

- ATPL exams, CPL, FIC, then start work to build up experience. Whilst working as an instructor, then you can do the MEP course, then an ME IR. As soon as you start working as an instructor, work on removing the supervisory restriction from your license, and also do the course to remove the No Night Instruction restriction from your license. Once you have the supervisory restriction removed, do the course to remove your No Applied Instrument Instruction restriction. That's where I'm up to right now.

Along the way, make sure you take every opportunity to log multi-engine P1 hours - you will need 30 of these (not 100 as Luke SkyToddler says), including 10 in the last 12 months, to become a multi-engine instructor. You might also consider getting an IMC rating during your hour-building, and doing a fair portion of your hour-building under IFR.

If you decide to go down this route, it is a long hard slog, but extremely rewarding if it's what you really want to do.

Hope that helps,

FFF
---------------

[spiritwings]

At the risk of sounding negative - here goes - I am the wife of a Flying Instructor who has 1000 hours and fATPL IR. We have three children and his wage for December was £646.00 net - for six days a week. Ask yourself if you could survive on that and think very carefully about your next move. We like many others on this forum set out on this path because he loves aviation and wanted to fly commercially. We sold our house for the cause. Before everyone jumps on my case, I am not whinging, just stating the facts. I remain optimistic that my husband will get a job as he is a great pilot with lots of other qualities to offer any employer. There are positives to being a flight instructor but unfortunately salary is not one of them. I wish you the best of luck with whatever you choose to do.

[jerezflyer]

Thanks everyone for your input - very informative and usefull in my decision making process. I will certainly take it all on board......

I am under no ilusion that if I get a frozen ATPL I will be successful at changing careers, at best as a turboprop FO. Likewise, I realise that just doing a basic CPL+FI will allow not me to change careers - simply not finacially viable.
However, like most of us, having a passion for aviation I have the habbit of talking people to death about flying and basically I "come alive" if aviation is mentioned in conversation, so I imagine I could make a very enthuisiastic instructor (maybe even a good one!!), but unfortunately not as a full time career, but part-time only at weekends. This way I would let my current career pay the bills and keep the family and bank account relitavely happy.
Perhaps this is the way to go for me, at least I won't be paying to fly, but recieving a small reward for it. Does anybody else do this?

I would do my CPL ground and flight training in UK, but my FI in Spain which is were I live and would eventually instruct.

Thanks again for all of you views and advice - positive and negative.

jerezflyer

[no sponsor]

Part-time at weekends seems an eminently wise decision. In fact, some more research will indicate that many FIs are in fact part-time, and most PPLers will be training at weekends. This is exactly what I will be doing, but I have all the other bits and pieces (CPL/IR and ME). An 80% drop in salary seems about as inviting as syphilis.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Do the part time instructing for fun thing. Anything else will almost certainly require financial hardship and relocation possibly several times. Not easy with a family and a lifestyle to support.

There's nothing like becoming a professional pilot to knock the love of flying out of you. Its the best way to lose a wonderful hobby..

That said if you have an itch to scratch then you wouldn't be the first or oldest to embark on the mad mad journey to a flightdeck based career.

Good luck,

WWW

[kloe]

Hi there folks,

I am trying to get a feel out there why pilots fly? Do we do it for the money? Do guys love airline flying or is charter flying a navajo just as fun. I talked to guys that fly for the airlines and love it and talked to other guys that wouldn't even step in a jetliner cockpit because they love to fly that 200 mile charter flight on a king air or caravan. I need to hear more stories from other guys on this matter and their views. I also talked to guys that have been flying corporate or charter flying forever and love it.

thanks

kloe

[scroggs]

You will find links to discussions about this and similar subjects in the Archive Reference Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649).

Scroggs

[sam34]

hello,

just a little question :

I wonder if I do FI rating or not.
I have finished ATPL theory...
Some people say that instructor allows to make many hours, to fly, maintain skills etc...
But I heard that companies do not care about single engine hours...they take only 5 %. And sometimes they not recruit pilots with too many hours (sep), because of bad custom we can acquire...

but the problem, without FI rating, how can we fly if we don't get a job just after CPL/IR/MCC ??

many thanks!

[scottiedogg]

Yes single engine hours aren't always taken into consideration, but a flight instructors rating plus some instruction hours looks damn good on a CV full stop. For example it will work in your favour for when you get round to Captaincy or becoming a training Captain - it shows you can work with others, teach, and if youve been teaching PPLs got patience :ok:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I'm not so sure an airline would get too excited about SEP time, FI or not, when it comes to the command process. The amount and type of hours you have accumulated in a multi-crew airline environment would be of far more interest to them.

[potkettleblack]

If you had serious multi engine hours on an FI ticket then someone might sit up and say that is interesting. 1500 hours on a C152 doesn't set the world on fire anymore. Only problem is that to become a multi/CPL/IR instructor you will need serious twin time in the first place which will cost you an arm and a leg. By the time you have gotten that you might as well just apply for a job anyway. The days when Flybe et al would fall over themselves employing FI's is long gone.

I would hazard an educated guess and say that the average PPL instructor probably gets no more than 300-400 hours pa at best and earns circa £10k. It doesn't take much to work out that for most of us we would be better off sticking to our day jobs, renting from a local club, hour building in the US or buying a group share (or all of the above) when time permits than giving up 4-5 years of our lives working for nought and having very little to show for it at the end.

The only way I can see instructing getting you to the RHS is if (and a BIG if), you work in a large club/FTO at a biggish airfield with a mix of charter, biz jets and maybe the odd loco or two. You just might be in the right place at the right time and be able to do a bit of networking to land that first job. Unfortunately most newly qualified FI's head for the hills (literally) and end up to, quote scroggs, at "little snoring flying club".

Edited to add: The above clearly only applies to the UK. In the US, Oz, NZ etc you are to a large degree still expected to jump through the FI hoops before ever getting near to a regional TP operator.

[badboy raggamuffin]

Hi all, basically am coming to the end of my IR training and will be joining the already big pile of people with an FATPL and 200 odd hours.

Aged 25, I have no contacts in the industry, no dad who is a training captain, I may hopefully have a first time pass in my IR to go with the one on my CPL but other than that I see nothing that is going to make me stand out amoungst the many hundreds of low hours wannabes cvs which might land on the desk of a chief pilot/ recruiter, yet alone stand out above the many instructors with a few hundred hours who might also be churning out CVs at any given time.

I am therefore resigned to the fact that It will take me a while and I will be very luck to be taken on by an airline in my current state and that I am probably gonna need something extra on my CV to open doors. I aint gonna pay for a TR so instructing would appear to be the way to go.
In short, should I do an instructors rating straight away and bulid up experience that way, or should I wait a few months to see if I can get a job with 200 ish hours first?
What are my chances with 200 hrs and no contacts? is it worth waiting a while b4 doing instructors.

Apart from getting a TR and building up experience through instruction, what other things could I do to make my CV stand out from the crowd?

Thanks.

[High Wing Drifter]

Hmmm, I dunno. It seems that people with 200hrs are getting interviews. It also seems that my old instructors were hanging about for a while, but once they got the TR their feet didn't touch the ground. One reckoned that the TR seems the be the deciding factor and spending money on a FIC is money that could be more usefully utilised in other ways.

I think some of them browse the forum, maybe they can chip in and set me straight if I'm writing rubbish.

[badboy raggamuffin]

What I meant was that I aint gonna go out and get a speculative TR. I accept that it is unlikely I will get a free TR from an Airleine. The idea of paying 20k for one up front isnt idea, so the best I can hope for I think is being bonded. I am realistic!

[Han 1st Solo]

Spent 3 and a bit years instructing, CFI for the last 2. Enjoyed it immensely, yes financially it was a struggle but wouldn't change the way I did things. Spent a year in a holding pool, didn't pay for my type rating, don't have a reduced salary ( although to be fair its not a huge salary), and at time of writting with my sim check tomorrow I haven't as yet signed a training fees agreement, and its flying a jet. All the instructors that I know have got airline jobs and its becoming sooner rather than later. You learn so much about flying as an instructor, maybe not necessarily airline flying but the experience you gain and making those command decisions on a daily basis will hold you in good stead. Plus its great fun!

Regards,

Han. :ok:

[MIKECR]

badboy,

From what i've seen lately, everyone and their granny appears to be getting jobs just now. Half a dozen FI's I know off have all gotten something, they've had to pay for TR's though. The flying school they were working at is beginning to wonder where its going to get replacements from, they just cant hold on to staff! Also, some of the low hour fATPL's I know have landed jobs aswell, both jet and TP.

I was thinking of doing the FI ticket myself but i think it wise to hold off and see if an airline job comes along first. I should have my first batch of carefuly targeted cv's out by the end of the week, hopefuly something turns up! Time will tell i guess.

[Token Bird]

everyone and their granny appears to be getting jobs just now

Er, where? Are there any people who have actually managed to get a job without screwing up the industry for the rest of us by paying for their type ratings? I'm beginning to think I might bypass the airline industry completely and go my own route to what I really want to do!

[MIKECR]

Token Bird,

You sound full of doom and gloom, im sure something will come your way though. I can only reiterate what I said previously, a load of FI's I know are being snapped up. The low hour fATPL's i know are also getting jobs. Admittedly, some have had to pay for tr's(in one form or another).

[Megaton]

The barometer of recruiting is BA. Not because they're any better than anyone else but because they're the biggest employer of pilots in this country. At the moment BA are recruiting hard. Ex-mil, fATPLs, other airline pilots are all getting hired and this is having a knock-on effect on second and third tier operators. Please don't bash BA but the truth is that very, very few people leave once they've got a foot in the door at BA.

Think I've forgotten the point I was trying to make but BA don't make you pay for your type-rating although Trainee Entry Pilots (TEPs) do start on a lower but still extremely pleasant salary.

Relatively speaking these are definitely the good times. Three years and earlier there was nothing happening at all. I know of former RAF fast jet guys with excellent credentials and decent blokes too (unbelievable I know) who were selling kitchens and loading bags.

Oh yes, maybe not everyone and their granny are getting jobs but I doubt it will be as good as this again for a long time. If you can't get a job now.....

[Superpilot]

I'm beginning to think I might bypass the airline industry completely and go my own route to what I really want to do!

Purely interested. What's that then?

[expedite08]

Iteresting read this thread, I was asking myself the same question six months to a year ago, but now I have made up my mind. Going to apply for jobs, give it six months and see where I am. If nothing comes I will go down the instructor route. With todays climate its got to be worth a go, you never know!

[crap pilot]

Go for the FI rating. Im about to finish the FI course and its great fun. I already have a job lined up and so do 2 of the other 3 instructors on my course so in a week or two I will be getting paid to fly! I decided to take the plunge as i thought that it would cost me a few grand just to keep myself current over the 6-12 months that i would be applying for jobs even if i was lucky enough to get one, so this money may aswell pay for half of the FI course.
Most schools are looking for instructors at the moment so there are plenty of jobs around and if there are plenty of instructing jobs then the instructors must be leaving to go somewhere.:ok:

[Token Bird]

Quote:
I'm beginning to think I might bypass the airline industry completely and go my own route to what I really want to do!
Purely interested. What's that then?
When I first started training many, many years ago I was planning on going for the airlines but changed my mind quite quickly. I want to do humanitarian aid in Africa or something of that ilk. I have still been looking for airlines jobs because the money is good and I wanted to clear my debts before going for the aid thing, but I'm now thinking I'm just wasting my time when it's not really what I want to do. The self-sponsored type-rating brigade have now made it virtually impossible for the rest of us - I think I can count all the UK airlines which don't expect a type-rating on one hand! There would be little point in me going down the SSTR route when I have no intention on making a career of the airlines,
TB

[Token Bird]

I would be interested to know which airlines have taken people on. I have been sending out applications for about a year continuously and have got virtually nowhere. The small number of people I know who have managed to secure jobs without having a type-rating have been picked up directly from their schools as soon as they completed their training, rather than having applied independently.

Most instructors I know of who are now in the airlines have had to end up paying for type-ratings after years of instructing. As for the instructors at my own airfield, one is going down the Ryanair SSTR route and another is going on the questionable MyTravel scheme, so I see little evidence of an massive upturn. Things are definitely better than they were 3 years ago when no-one could get a job, but they still aren't brilliant!

TB

[potkettleblack]

The harsh reality is that the market is probably about as good as it has ever been and I can't see it getting any better. If the projected housing market crash occurs then it will only get worse as people tighten their purse strings and the first things to go are the holidays. Airlines such as BA and Ryanair are already noting that loads are down hence the seat sales going on.

If people can't get jobs when the likes of Thomsonfly, Easyjet, Jet2, Ryanair, Aer Arran, BA, Aer Lingus, Eastern, BMI & Flybe are recruiting (just to name the ones I know about) then there is little hope or they need a severe reality check and ask themselves the tough question as to what they are doing wrong. Sending out CV's works for only a small minority. If you are lucky to be called for interview via this method without anyone at a company knowing anything about you other than reading your 1 page CV then you should go and buy a lottery ticket. The majority get interviews through recommendations from schools or inside contacts eg: pilot friends or working for an airline in another capacity. The latter come from putting in hard work and developing relationships.

[Token Bird]

Sorry, but I'm not the kind of person who sucks up to people to 'make contacts'. I do know a number of people who work for the airlines but no-one in a position to actually help me. As for getting recommended by the school, it's a bit late for that now since I finished years ago!

there is little hope or they need a severe reality check and ask themselves the tough question as to what they are doing wrong

Indeed. Well I have worked in aviation for a few years now and having been an ATPL groundschool instructor I have seen many morons somehow get qualified. I have encountered many people who I would be terrified to fly as a passenger with myself. Out of the many people I have seen qualify, I would definitely put myself nearer the top of the pile than the bottom.

Anyway, this is all academic since as I've said, I'm not going to bother with the airlines. I can always go into it later when I'm older and tired of being shot at!

TB

[Token Bird]

Thomsonfly, Easyjet, Jet2, Ryanair, Aer Arran, BA, Aer Lingus, Eastern, BMI & Flybe

As for the above list, I gather that at least 4 of them require type-ratings, one only takes from CTC (apparently), another only takes experienced people, at least 3 of them I have applied to regularly and been told they are simply not recruiting. As for Flybe, they 'are currently experiencing a large volume of applications', the only people I know who have got a job with them have been recent graduates who have been put forward by their school.

[scroggs]

Do not take this thread off-course into a discussion of BA's business results.

Scroggs

[charliecho]

TB I'll second your 'no sucking up' rule and add that to the 'don't pay for your own type rating' rule that I abide by.

I completed the ATPL g/s and modular flying in record time of 6mths excl the xmas break all in an effort to get to CTC before I was too old. Having achieved that target, they stopped recruiting! Fantastic!:ugh:

To date I've sent out circa100 applications, played the game and got about 20% reply rate; all No thanks/ not recruiting/ not enough experience, blah blah..

In the course of all of this no-one has been more aware that making contacts can be helpful or even vital but i will and do stop short of shining the shoes of CFI's and line pilots who are friend of friends!

So Airline pilot or Instructor? Without a well paid job in hand with which to create oodles of disposible wedge and fly up and down the continent for the sake of it, I'm off to do an F.I. rating and try to assist those with the big ambition or spare time to learn to fly tin cans around southern Britain. In that way I can stay aloft without paying for it and build experience. Lets face it, aviation is there to be enjoyed and we all get more real flying in 1 ton machines whether you sit in the reight or the left seat.

[Superpilot]

Yes sadly, there are a group of people extremely eager to pay for their TR but often it is a financially sound decision for those involved. One particular guy I've met laid down the maths for me. For him to go the TR way made perfect sense...

Option A.) go and instruct for a year, earning around £12k. Advantage lots of hours gained but live a very poor life, risking and jeapordising everything you own.
Option B.) Stay in your current profession and earn enough money to build around 100 hours a year (plenty), enough cash for a TR and a holiday for the kids with no financial worries.

Fact: A TR is just as likely to get you a job in this current climate as being an FI is.

Hence in my opinion why option B) is fast becoming the norm.

[tom775257]

Well if I compare my life as an FI, and life as an airline pilot:

As an FI I flew 6 days a week with no planned break in the day. It was hard work, dangerous at times while flying ****e aircraft. It was very satisfying when you saw a student improve, however often the job was frustrating. After 1 year I had had enough of the whole thing. The really good side was working with great people, meeting lots of interesting / different people etc.

As an airline pilot I get paid much better, much more time off, I fly nice new jets to some interesting places etc. I just came back from the beach with the other pilots enjoying the med, having a swim, sunbathe, cheeky beer etc. A much better lifestyle. The job is still satisfying in a different way, rather than when you instruct you gain pleasure from your students gaining skills, in a selfish was I can now be happy with my own skills improving - a nice landing in a strong x-wind certainly puts a smile on my face.

I wouldn't be here right now if I didn't pay for a type rating. Further to my last report, I have since found out that the ONLY people from my fATPL course who have found jobs as airline pilots have self funded type ratings. That said I know people who have had type ratings paid for, however these have been on turboprops (talking first job here). Nothing wrong with that, but again I have seen people have to pay for type ratings when trying to go from TP to jet. Hey ho, it is a tricky business! I'm sure there are loads of people out there who get their TR's paid for and I am a chump for paying, such is life.

Good luck.

[Troy McClure]

Don't know how long it takes for the airline buzz to wear off (watch this space), but in my experience of instructing 18 months full time is about the max. Any instructors doing more than that start to get increasingly frustrated. As luck would have it, this coincides with the 1000 hour + mark where airlines and other operators start to take you more seriously.

Strangely, having left a full time instructor job, it didn't take long til I started to miss it, so now doing a bit part time to tide me over and keep my hand in.

Wouldn't have missed my instructor experience, but to do it for the next 10 years - no thanks.

[propgirl]

Best of luck. I'm sure you will be flying for money or love. Just hope you remember to keep the balance and it will all be good - family, flying, friends. At the end of the day take care of her, and know how to do it, and the rest will be OK.

[Stratman]

Interesting question that, also interesting ` How long before the buzz wears off` Make no mistake it will wear off after a honeymoon period, how long that will be depends on the individual the same thing happens with many relationships, and how many of us have thought ` If I just buy that car I`ll keep it for years, I won`t get fed up with it. Its part of our mindset as human beings allways looking for the next gratifying thing, flying is normally only that. 20 years ago when I began flying in a Cessna 150 I thought ` wouldn`t it be great to do this for a living` drawn in by romantic notions of becoming an airline pilot so I did. I did not consider that it would become just another job with all the negatives that come with any work commitment.
I used to fly when I wanted to, when the weather was fine and the hours were civilised, once it becomes your occupation it takes on a whole new look.
I now fly on a part time basis which I find suits me far better I no longer wish to be tied to aviation full time as I find other pursuits just as interesting many of them more so. This is of course a personal opinion based on my experiences with various airlines. In todays climate with the `sell your soul to become a pilot` ethos that has become custom and practise, would I do it again, absolutely not, but now I have the benefit of hindsight and also the world was not such a `I want it now` every man for himself `kind of place and everything in society has been affected by that attitude, not good.

Peace out.

[Deano75]

Hi everyone! (oh, not another one),
Nationality: GBR. Age: 32 (Single). Hours: 300 ASEL with IR. Got my ticket in Arizona when I was 18 years old. First-job-was-at-the-airport story and I soloed on my 16th birthday before I got my driver's license. Loved flying ever since I could break my brother's toys but ran out of cash at 19 and slowly, surely I have gained 300 hours.

Done a lot of living and learning in the last 14 years and well, it's time to do what I can't get out of my head. Only twist here is that I'm leaving my job in TV in Bangkok and heading off to Aussie to jump in and out of those juicy clouds down there. The usual questions rear their ugly head: Too old? Too inexperienced? I'm going to get my aussie CPL and license conversions done down there with a long term goal of emmigration and flying all over the GAFA (Great Australian Frig All).

They like to grew their own down there though and I just would like to know in a worldly wise aviation setting, where am I when it comes to getting on the ladder as a FI with a long term goal of regionals or majors?
Cheers,
Deano

[expedite08]

hard to tell at the moment, I am at the point of deciding whether to do CPL and then FI, followed by the IR, after a season or two instructing. Mixed responses on here make the decision very hard indeed. Some say airlines are going mad for people, others are not being touched! Which way to go???
:ugh::ugh:

[bri1980]

Certainly a shortage of instructors at the moment, and it's hours that you get paid for. Schools less fussy than airlines so prospects of employment higher-that said they pay less!

B

[expedite08]

Very true indeed. I've even applied for this elusive Cabair Instructor Sponsorship. Now that is interesting. It has not materliased in to anything at the moment.

There is a thread running elsewhere, and the whole scheme has been very heavily marketed, but not even a sniff! I have heard though that it is being purely marketed at the moment, so time will tell. The guy to speak to is as difficult to get hold of as Mr Bin Laden! Possible scam alert.

Anyway back to the point, its all about risk. Instructing poses much less of a risk, however on the other side of the coin there are jobs out there.

[bri1980]

I've even applied for this elusive Cabair Instructor Sponsorship.




The instructor sponsorhip is a good idea-something I may even consider myself when the time comes. Look at it from the other angle though, you go to Cabair as an instructor and maybe finish up teaching integrated guys on courses like the Flybe sponsorship. Now that's irony!

B

[bluenose81huskys]

Would love to Go for that Cabair sponsorship if I had the experience just now - Good luck to you's!, I am 33 ive let my licence lapse and havent flown PIC for 3 years but now, I will do it again very shortly, I would like to gain my CPL and go FIC too. I will have to renew my licence and obviously take a skill test again. Does anyone Know if i'll have to sit any exams again??

[islandgirl]

Rather than starting a new post and getting yelled at, thought I would just ask here. Are the horror stories of the ghastly wages for flight instuctors also applicable to flight schools in the US? I have no illusions that I could possibly make what I'm making now, but was just looking from some input from this side of the pond. My stats - getting old(er) (looking at the big 30), already have bachelors, master's was in progress but on hold due to illness, current ocupation probably wouldn't allow for doing flying as a hobby (at least not beyond private/instrument). I am curious what the quality of life/salary range for career flight instructors is. As someone still not willing to part altogether with my flying dream but not wanting to rack up any more loans on education, or put undue stress on my marriage, I was wondering if career flight instruction was a reasonable route to pursue said flying dreams. Thoughts?? Advice?? Words of wisdom? Any thoughts from women in aviation who fly and have a work/life balance?

[Wannabe Airways]

Good discussion.

How about Flight Instructor (flying SEP VFR) v Commercial on a MEP type flying IFR/VFR (No type rating required)???

Let's say the Airline thing is just going nowhere for now and you need to get to the 500h milestone then the 1000h milestone for more interviews to come your way?

(Take out the cost factor for the FI rating).

Any clear advantages/disadvantages between these 2?

[harsh_bhandari]

sir.... i am an aspiring pilot....and not even touched a plane yet...but still being an instructor xcites me....it can add to your knowledge and can contribute to the aviation industry too...
i wanted to ask you that can i become an instructor with only CFI(single engine) and earnings from that can sponsor my CFII and MEI...
also suggest how to go about selecting an academy...what are the parameters to look for....

ned advice!!!!! i ll be obliged to hear from you...

[CISTRS]

When I learned to fly, I was amazed at the number of fellow student pilots who aspired to a career in commercial aviation. I was a student pilot in the early 1970's, a member of Sportair Flying Club at Biggin Hill. I chose that club because they had interesting aircraft to fly, wooden taildraggers, biplanes, motorgliders. My longest distance flight (power, not gliding) has been my qualifying cross country for the PPL. I quickly learned to avoid the treadmill of night rating / IMC rating / etc. IMHO flying a single engined light aircraft at night is :mad: dangerous - not fun either.
I never saw my flying as anything but fun, and certainly not a reliable means of transport.
I learned some aerobatics, and flew mostly local flights.

I went on to fly gliders, acquiring a third share in an aerobatic Pilatus B-4, where I soon amassed more hours without an engine than I had with.

Throughout my passion for flying, there has been a determination to do it only for fun - never to be a slave to the addiction of flight.

The point of this is the realisation that the most enjoyable flying you will ever do is in light aircraft, whether instructing, or tugging gliders, or just kissing the turf gently with a perfect 3-point landing on a summer's evening on a sloping field.

Get a good job - earn enough to fly for fun - keep the addiction under control and enjoy. It doesn't need to be a ratrace.

But then I'm not a "Professional Pilot" - by choice.

[dartagnan]

there are so many pilots with few hours and a type rating.
airlines are full for these next years. some have a waiting list of over 1 year.
it doesnt matter if you are a good pilot or not. it s just a question to be in the right place at the right time.

[expedite08]

Very true indeed dartagnan! It is purley luck all this flying lark! Its all about contacts, well, no it isnt, its all about pure luck! Even contacts cant sometimes get you an interview!

Im back in the position again of deciding to go IR or FI? Ive even been offered part sponsorship for the FI, with a one year bond of course! Schools must be getting very desperate! But I also have one or two contacts in the airlines (small carriers ) who say ive got good chances of getting in! Decisions, decisions!!

[SkyCamMK]

I wish you were able to replace me right now as an FI and that you were preferably unrestricted. I want to go off sailing and need a replacement! Full timer permanent preferred but part timer might be able to help. Many reckon there are no FI jobs but if you want a busy programme with good pay at a small RF/FTO at Cranfield then PM me if you know of anyone who is ready and able to work.

Previous references to available FI work in an earlier thread produced nothing! in spite of a few casual enquirers who reckoned they needed better pay and more flying. Nobody came to see and check it out! One new full time FI(R) was found locally and he is now working hard and needs assistance with programme for PPL students. Help me get to sea!!!