Question for spotters

[captain cumulonimbus]

Post by Full Emergency
Beware of the armed airport Police, they are very bored and like to stop and lecture you if you hang about outside the terminal - even though it is very obvious you are a spotter.

The reason for this might be the fact that someone has called in to say that there is a person starring at the airport, wither from the public or the Control Tower.

The public is not to know that you are a spotter, so by standing there you are simply wasting police time, and there are better things (things that you never get to see) that we need to be doing with our time rather that moving you lot on.

I mostly work at LHR and I am actually very busy, not that you know that, you just take offence to us doing our jobs properly.

I have found that the best place to watch the planes come into land if the approach is from the city is from the roof of 1 Canada Sq. (Cannary Warf).......not that you would be allowed up there mind.

Oh and I have some lovely photos of me stood airside right by Concorde at LHR with my Glock and MP5.......

:ok: :ok:

Post by MAN777
Full Emergency.

Obviously you are so tied up in your self importance to notice that several major airports actually encourage spotters on their perimeters, spotters are a mine of information and would probably be the first to notice and report anything unusual. Take a look at ringwayreports.co.uk and see how GMP actively communicate with them in a constructive manner. In addition I noticed you ask do spotters fly ? Of course they do, probably more in one year than you have flown in the last 10. As an enthusiast (as I prefer to be called)I have visited every continent except the antarctic in the last few years.

Sorry to keep you from your brew stop !

Post by Full Emergency

Full Emergency.

Obviously you are so tied up in your self importance to notice that several major airports actually encourage spotters on their perimeters, spotters are a mine of information and would probably be the first to notice and report anything unusual. Take a look at ringwayreports.co.uk and see how GMP actively communicate with them in a constructive manner. In addition I noticed you ask do spotters fly ? Of course they do, probably more in one year than you have flown in the last 10. As an enthusiast (as I prefer to be called)I have visited every continent except the antarctic in the last few years.

Sorry to keep you from your brew stop !

Brew stop?? Whats that?? GMP may encourage it, but I don't work there. Personally, I don't have a problem with "enthusiasts" but when it drags we away from what I should be doing because some "enthusiast" is trying to jump over one of the fences by the BA Maintenace area, just to get a better picture of the brand new Beoing 777 Long Range, then it does become a problem.

Glad you travel. So do I. SYD and back via BKK and also been to DFW to visit a friend who is a FAM. You don't know how much flying I really have done over the past 10 years, so I wouldn't comment on that. It was a serious question.

FE

Post by captain cumulonimbus

what i'd be interested to know is why,as FULLEMERGENCY said,would the police want to 'move someone on' if it is clear they are just an enthusiast?

There would be no legal justification to do so.

Or is England becoming a Police State?

Post by ??Tony??

hi

The is no logical reason for these checks only that they are Reguler ,bags
are Searched . id checked cars seached and then you are told on paper
"you have been stopped and questioned under the prevention of terrorism act
blah blah" its very obvious your a spotter Note books full of Registers etc
binoculers. cameras , badges all over coats but that does not deter them
you are in a sensitive place!. its the same at the Airshow THOUSANDS are
searched on way in ? what for ? i dont object cos i would be arrested
there and then . is it likely a terrorist would be in the same place as thousands of spotters ok i agree a poss Suicide bomber but there not really looking that hard . the same can be said of an ANGLER stopped on the
Basingstoke canal near the airfield his Bags emptied rods and all in case there
was a concealed Firearm or a Missile launcher ANGLERS Beware.
i leave it to you Security or Stupidity

tony

Post by Full Emergency

There would be no legal justification to do so.

WRONG !!!!

Heathrow Airport Bye-Laws only allow people to enter their property if they are there for one of the following reasons:

a) Are a bone-fided passenger with ticket travelling out of LHR.(including e-ticket)
b) Are arriving to meet and collect a named passenger off a flight that has landed at LHR.
c) Work at the airport - including contractors, or dropping someone off at the airport who works there.
d) Been a named passenger on a flight that has landed at LHR. (These people must not take more than a reasonable amount of time to leave the property.)

The "property" includes the Perimeter Roads and the footbridge by Hatton Cross.

It does not include "shopping" or being an "enthusiast" There are signs positioned at the entrance to the area that is covered by the airport bye-laws informing you that you are now entering this area.

If you breach this bye-law you can be required to leave HAL property. This can also be done by the use of force if necessary, although we try and aviod that at all costs. There is also a 24 hour rule that states that unless you are one of the above, you are also prohibited from re-entering HAL/BAA property with 24 hours. If you do so, you can be arrested.

Don't believe me? Check with HAL/BAA.

FE

the same can be said of an ANGLER stopped on the
Basingstoke canal near the airfield his Bags emptied rods and all in case therewas a concealed Firearm or a Missile launcher ANGLERS Beware.

You laugh, but it does and will happen. That is the power of Section 44 Terrorism Act 2000. It also counts if you are on private property or even your own.

I do not wish to start a debate about 'rights' etc as I just can't be bothered with all that. The fact is the Government which this country elected in power, handed the police these powers.

If you don't like the law, change the Government that is in office, and try and get it changed that way. No amount of moaning on an internet site will change it.

The fact is that the police, like it or not, have a job to do. It was funny how civil rights groups like Liberty were very quiet after the 7th July bombings. Give those bombers rights?? Please.........:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

FE

Post by ??Tony??

HI

I Certainly believe you as its private property same as when your XYL goes shopping to a shopping center she and everyone Else is a Guest you have no
right of entry. Spotters can be seen at Every Airfield and strip around the world apart from a few idiots i cannot remember any Damage or anything
else done by them ok mention of the Greek affair i suppose but thats a one
off i hope. Some of the most sensitive USAF bases(ok there all sensitive to the CIA\USM)Have large amounts of spotters there MILDENHALL, FAIRFORD , To name 2 and have good relations with security there. i really cannot understand why if you are doing nothing wrong by that i mean Parking and causing an obstrucion of roads, fire gates , NOISE, LITTER , Why they just cannot be left alone ok so a casual stroll past now and again just to show the flag is enough surely might make a few friends and people happy or is
that another thing we not allowed any more

TONY

Post by Full Emergency


Why they just cannot be left alone ok so a casual stroll past now and again just to show the flag is enough surely might make a few friends and people happy or isthat another thing we not allowed any more

Why do you think that most spotters that are seen hanging around ARE left where they are. Only a few get stopped and spoken to in proportion to how many people are there.

FE

Phew! Hope that helps to make it clearer! Apologies again!

[Full Emergency]

Hi there.

Although this may sound like a stupid question, but it is a serious one that I have to ask none the less, if only to satisfy my own curiosoty.

Do any of you every actually fly on these planes that you take pictures of, or is that not the appeal of it?? I am not having a go or a dig. It is a serious question.

I often see losts of spotters hanging around LHR and LCY where I both work, and depending on the persons attitude, may move on. They are always taking pictures, but they never seem to fly.

I would have thought that with the low low fares of today, you'd be flying to other airports to spot from airside both ends, and then fly back home again..??

Oh and a little tip as not to get any problems from the local po-po. DON'T take pictures of squad cars/personnel and/or Security Posts. In this day and age you will most likely end up seeing at first hand EXACTLY how your taxes are put to good use....

FE

[MAN777]

Full emergency
see top thread

[Mad Buzzard]

well, you don't notice us but we are there...:}

[ALLDAYDELI]

Full Emergency
Welcome to Pprune. I have been reading your postings with interest.

Could you please clarify what you mean by...
"I often see losts of spotters hanging around LHR and LCY where I both work, and depending on the persons attitude, may move on"

And by the way, those that are daft enough to photograph police vehicles, (especially the dark blue American manufactured truck) security points etc etc shouldnt be in the fraternity. I heard of someone doing this a couple of yeras back at Hatton Cross and thus recived a big ticking off.

I suppose we could open up a very reasonable debate on how useful spotters around airport perimiters actually are... extra sets of eyes and ears and indeed useful for noting when there is unusual activity around the vicinity.

regards

[Wycombe]

I guess it may help to divide "spotters" (some of whom are pure "number crunchers" and/or photographers) and the more generic "aviation enthusiast" (someone who is more interested in the aircraft and/or industry)

I count myself in the latter (although I used to collect the numbers at one time aswell) and am definately more interested in the aeroplanes, the industry and watching them being put through their paces at airshows.

For me the interest has extended into flying in them and flying them (having gained a PPL) aswell. Over the years, I've flown in many and various types (the most recent being a Thruster microlight!) and still get a thrill out of it. In fact, I love flying generally, even crossing the pond in a Jumbo (which I will be doing again in about a month).

On the other hand, I have known "spotters" who are actually a bit nervous about flying :confused:

[Full Emergency]

the dark blue American manufactured truck

I suppose we could open up a very reasonable debate on how useful spotters around airport perimiters actually are... extra sets of eyes and ears and indeed useful for noting when there is unusual activity around the vicinity.

The big American truck thing is great fun to drive. I can't for security reasons explain excatly what it can or can not do, or what it is used for, for obvious reasons. That said, I think "The Times" tried to do an article on it a couple of years ago, and got numerous facts wrong about it.

I do agree that "enthusiasts" do prove an extra set of 'eyes and ears' however they have also been responsible for countless security call outs as HAL staff esp have feared that they may breach security in order to get a better view etc etc. The other problem is that nobody is concentrating on the actual security issues, just simply the planes as they fly over head. That's no use to anyone.

The other issue that we have is the airport bye-laws. They basically say that you should not be anywhere within the HAL area. This does include all the perimeter roads surrounding LHR.

My own personal opinion is that there should be a proper viewing area somewhere along the Northern Perimeter Road, where you can all go to. The problem with that is that there will still be people that will be climbing up on the perimeter fence elsewhere. The minority spoil it for the majority.

FE

[Full Emergency]

For me the interest has extended into flying in them and flying them (having gained a PPL) aswell.

Many congrats from me for getting your PPL. I know someone who got theirs, and the amount of money/hours it must have took to get it.

Many Congrats again. :ok: :ok:

FE

[Wycombe]

You are very kind. Was something I always wanted to do (actually I wanted to fly professionallly but that's another story!), so while I was still single and had the money I got on and did it :ok:

Like many other UK PPL's and now that I have a family/bigger mortgage etc, it is getting increasingly difficult to keep it up.

Have tried to address this by going down a "free flying" route, but that has also been knocked on the head recently, because of the amount of family time it took up (I was quite happy to give up the time for a good cause, but the rest of the family weren;t :{ )

Like you say, it is an achievement, so I shouldn't moan I suppose.

[captain cumulonimbus]

FULLEMERGENCY,i've been reading your posts in the "Spotting Spot" thread with interest and i gather you're police or security.

It might help to change your attitude toward spotters to know some of us are in fact Commercial Airline Pilots,the very ones people like yourself are helping to secure when we,too,are at work.

I count myself amongst this group,and i must say i've been 'spotting' all my life virtually.The lifelong passion turned into a career and so,for me,spotting is a way of seeing different aircraft in different locations around the globe in their natural element.Its odd flying over a perimeter fence on short final and looking down at the spotters knowing i'm one of them sometimes!

I agree,some of them are total losers and may well be unstable,i've certainly met a few nutters in my time,but please remember next time you chase a spotter away,that the following day he/she may very well be commanding an aircraft into your airport!

Cheers,and keep up the good work policing our airports REASONABLY.:ok:

[PaperTiger]

This subject crops up from time to time, and it has been posted in the past that if you have to ask the question then you couldn't possibly understand the answer, That's not a smartarse remark, it's just that like a number of pastimes (fishing, golf etc.), some people instinctively "get it" while others will never see the attraction however well or often it's explained.

I appreciate your annoyance at continually getting 'suspicious person' calls only to find it's just another hapless spotter(s). I suspect these calls come from people who are either overly nervous or simply bloody-minded (in true British fashion). Someone in your position ought to be able to distinguish spotting from something more nefarious; spotters are open and obvious in their activities, and a telescope, camera, radio or notebook are not things the average terrorist is likely to be waving about. It does require a frame of mind incorporating both tolerance and geniality, something not usually associated with law enforcement or security personnel unfortunately.

I don't buy the 'extra eyes' argument. As you say, the spotters are watching the planes and not much else and I doubt many would spot a terrorist if they tripped over one. It is possible (though not verifiable) that the mere presence of a group of spotters is enough to deter terrorist activities in that particular location. The point is also made that the immediate perimeter is an unlikely location from which to mount an attack anyway, the bad guys probably preferring somewhere a little more umm... discreet.

I have a lot of spare time for googling and such, and have found that the spotter/photographer subculture, as evidenced by websites and blogs, is surprisingly active. Whether any of this information is of the slightest interest or use to the terrorists (as alleged), I can't say. So far all it sems to have done is embarrass the CIA; which is not necessarily a Bad Thing. The authorities would presumably prefer it if spotters would simply go away, but despite some draconian measures in places, I don't see this happening. It is encouraging that you advocate spotters' facilites, but such would require a bit more effort than the LHR visitors' centre, which seems to have been intended for casual plane-watchers being essentially useless (I'm told) for serious spotting. Seems self-defeating to me - the more you drive spotters into being furtive, the more nonsense calls you and your colleagues are likely to get.

Sorry for rambling, but this is the Spectators' Gallery :D

[FLCH]

Prior to 9/11 I saw a spotter at the PHX airport furiously jotting down numbers as planes came and went, as I was waiting to fly back to EWR I nudged my captain who was sitting next to me, and remarked about this spotter "being in heaven". The captain got up and went to the spotter and played "20 questions" My captain had no earthly idea what spotting was all about. Needless to say the poor spotter left and went elsewhere.

[Full Emergency]

It might help to change your attitude toward spotters to know some of us are in fact Commercial Airline Pilots,the very ones people like yourself are helping to secure when we,too,are at work.

I don't have an 'attitude' towards spotters or enthusiasts per say. What I do have a major 'attitude' against is anyone trying to breach security in order to get numbers or better photos, and then give all the "I'm only a spotter" line after we have detained him/her.

I am not labelling you like that, or saying that everyone is the same, but one of these days someone is likely to get killed or very badly hurt by stupid actions like that.

It will not then be the person who breach security, it will be the police officers fault for making a split-second decision when they should have been more clairevoiant than 'Mystic Meg' and realised that they were a spotter, not a suicide bomber. They then have to live with that.

Anyone care to tell me what a suicide bomber looks like?? Rucksack running towards a plane after having jumped the fence possibly............??

FE

[Full Emergency]

spotters are open and obvious in their activities, and a telescope, camera, radio or notebook are not things the average terrorist is likely to be waving about. It does require a frame of mind incorporating both tolerance and geniality, something not usually associated with law enforcement or security personnel unfortunately.

The point is also made that the immediate perimeter is an unlikely location from which to mount an attack anyway, the bad guys probably preferring somewhere a little more umm... discreet.

Thank you for your post. It is good that things have remained civil and I will try and follow the trend here. I would like to comment and point out 2 things regarding your post if I may?

1) Do you not think that groups like A/Q will try and possibly 'blend - in' to the surroundings. I mean the hi-jackers on 9/11 weren't wearing Arabic clothes when they boarded, or the countless months that they were in the country. The wore western clothes in order to fit in better and get close. REAL close over a long period of time. They also have all the time in the world to carry out their attack. 9/11 was prepared for years before it's time. What's to say that one of their operatives is not 'undercover' as a spotter right now, and has all the cameras etc etc (think about how much money they must have spent flying around the world and internally throughout the US to find the weak links in security so they could get their box cutters on board before 9/11) How do I know that the prson that I am speaking to is not one of these people and is testing security?? Had any strange people turn up with all the kit recently that looks out of place?? If so, let us know. You never can tell.

2) The Perimeter is the most likely. Why?? All the attacks so far (and those in Iraq included) they are not worried about survival. They want publicity and high level impact on the population. The four suicide bombers on 7/7 should be a prime example of that. They believe in Martardom and dying for their cause, no matter what. Even if they breached security and were shot dead by police before they reached their target would be a victory for them as the public would panic and be afraid. They do not want to be discrret, they want to make a public statement. Any spotters that got in the way, ie were there would be killed and that would be seen by them as a bonus.

All of the above is not anything which is a secret, but comman sense when you look back at what has happened over the last 10 or so years. Had we been talking about the IRA, then yes, they wouldn't want to get caught/die, but A/Q play by different rules.

FE

[Gulf4uk]

HI

OK I See its ok to stop and Random search a few even though there doing nothing wrong minding there own bizz etc no sorry no more comment
from me its smacks of big brother is watching you etc
cheers for the replys

Tony

[PaperTiger]

1) Do you not think that groups like A/Q will try and possibly 'blend - in' to the surroundings.Yes, that would be a smart move and your point about the 9/11 gang is valid (except that the screener at BOS was disturbed by Atta's demeanour but had no reason to detain him). My feeling is that the spotting fraternity is pretty much a closed group, a clique if you will. I would think a terrorist would stand out if he (or especially she) suddenly appeared among them, and probably couldn't maintain a long-term 'infiltration' without arousing suspicion due to atypical (ie. insufficient dedication) behaviour. What the spotters would do about it, I don't know though.2) The Perimeter is the most likely. Why?? All the attacks so far (and those in Iraq included) they are not worried about survival.But they are concerned about selecting worthwhile targets and a decent chance of 'success'. What's the worst a perimeter penetration could do (in broad daylight) ? Assuming the airside patrols are insufficient to prevent interception, he could maybe blow up a parked plane or explode himself outside a taxying one. Not a big return for the effort, I submit. The bigger danger, we are led to believe, is a missile attack and they don't have to be anywhere near the airport to carry that out. There are much softer targets and locations to kill infidels, like the tube or any number of other places which don't bear thinking about and certainly should not be enumerated here.

[captain cumulonimbus]

FULL EMERGENCY,of course ENTERING an airport grounds would be a violation of the law,not least of which it would be a case of common tresspass.Any fool knows that.What i was referring to was the legal justification for "moving on" a spotter who is standing OUTSIDE the perimeter,on a public sidewalk for example,on public ground.He has every right to be there and every right not to be "moved on" .There is no legal justification for THAT.

As for morons jumping fences...its his own fault,not the police's fault,if he's shot.Every sane person should and i believe does realise that that is clearly against the law.
Cb

[barit1]

It's been 30+ years since the Concord(e) paid a one-off visit to a nearby airport, whereupon a colleague and I drove up to a construction gate at the perimeter. We were both in business attire, I had a professional camera at my side, and we announced to the wino guard that we "were there to get press photos; was there any area we had to avoid?"

Said wino stammered "Well, just don't drive on the runway..." and waved us through.

We got some pretty good shots from the perimeter road. :}

[Full Emergency]

, he could maybe blow up a parked plane or explode himself outside a taxying one. Not a big return for the effort

Really?? You think so?? I don't. It would get worldwide publicity. People all over the world would stop flying, just like after 9/11. It would be a massive return.

The British economy would suffer, not just though tourist issues, but also businesses and cargo stuff. Why do you think the Government has already okayed the 3rd runway at LHR? It's to support the surrounding businesses.

I know the Government/BAA hasn't offically said this, but it aint rocket science. Why do you think that BA are moving out of the Compass Centre and going to T5? A third runway WILL happen and that is fact. There is nothing people can do to stop it.

FE

[Full Emergency]

What i was referring to was the legal justification for "moving on" a spotter who is standing OUTSIDE the perimeter,on a public sidewalk for example,on public ground.

I think that you might need to re-read my post. The Bye-laws INCLUDE all the Perimeter Roads around LHR. The public roads and parks, you're right, we can not move you on. Inside the LHR boundary we can and normally will.

FE

[PaperTiger]

I think that you might need to re-read my post. The Bye-laws INCLUDE all the Perimeter Roads around LHR. The public roads and parks, you're right, we can not move you on. Inside the LHR boundary we can and normally will.
FEThe roads landside at LHR are covered by the Road Traffic Act.
Each entrance has a No Vehicles sign http://www.bris.ac.uk/imagelib/tsnv-t35.gif with the "Except for Access" rider (whatever that means).
I don't remember any of these being present: http://www.bris.ac.uk/imagelib/tsnp-t35.gif , so you'll have to cite the bylaw which prevents pedestrians from entering the roads.

You will (hopefully) have a better understanding than I of the trespass, obstruction and loitering offences, although I don't see any being applicable.

Loitering = standing or moving slowly with no apparent purpose. I'm sure you routinely move spotters on and none of them is going to argue the toss, obviously. I am not qualified to comment on whether or not you are legally empowered to do so, but as posted earlier the police can always find something and no punter will go to the trouble of calling your bluff.

[IanH]

So how come the Heathrow Police and / or Security never threw spotters/people watching planes off the Queens Building when it was open ?

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

"Except for Access" is supposed to mean : No vehicles allowed, unless those vehicles have a legitimate reason to travel over the road, eg. some narrow roads in town centres are barred to traffic unless, say, you live there, or in the case of an airport, to drop off/pick up at a terminal or go to the car parks etc. on airport, yet landside, property. Yet who defines what a legitimate reason is ? Can a spotter drive his car along the perimeter road up to an airport car park, even if he has no intention to travel to a terminal or to fly on an aeroplane, and then become a pedestrian ?

It sounds like the legislation was drafted to be deliberately vague. Typical British vagueness. If you actually had checkpoints on entry to the LHR perimeter roads, you'd have chaos, so of course there has to be some give and take. But why have the No traffic signs, except for access, in the first place. I may add that such signs have been there for 30-odd years - they're not recent.

[bjcc]

Paper Tiger

Speaking as someone who policed Heathrow or 11 years, FE is correct.

The bye laws say, as he quotes.

You have no right of access unless:

You are flying in or out.
You work there
You are meeting a specific person or dropping someone off.

It is not a matter of loitering etc, it is a matter of it being private propery, with its own bye laws. Just like any private property, you cannot be there unless you have the permission of the owner. How would you feel if your front garden was invaded by people who refused to leave?

There does not have to be a no access for pedestrians sign. Although yes, it may be disirable.

Yes, you can be moved off the property, by force if nessesary. And yes, the Airport includes all the perri roads.

He's also correct in that spotters take up an inordinate amount of police time.

Not only do they climb over fences, they block Emergency Access points with cars and then wander off. How would you feel if your family were killed becuase Fire/Ambulance and Police could not get access to an emegency because some idiot had left his car there and wandered off. Couldn't happen? Oh yes it could! RVP North access gates used to be a mecca for plane spotters.

The sensible approach, which sadly many don't adopt is to stay out of the way, and don't act daft!

Golf Charlie Charlie.

No, you do not fit any of the criteria above, you cannot enter the airport. The perri is on the airport.

[PaperTiger]

Paper Tiger
Speaking as someone who policed Heathrow or 11 years, FE is correct.
The bye laws say, as he quotes.
You have no right of access unless:
You are flying in or out.
You work there
You are meeting a specific person or dropping someone off.Hello bjcc, long time no argue :D (I think FE is a she BTW)
Is this a bylaw prohibiting vehicles or pedestrians, or does it not distinguish ?
How would you feel if your front garden was invaded by people who refused to leave?I'd be p!ssed off, because my front garden is not a place of buisness.Not only do they climb over fences,When was the last time a spotter climbed over a fence at LHR (as opposed to up it - which is also stupid) ?No, you do not fit any of the criteria above, you cannot enter the airport. The perri is on the airport.Yet thousands use it daily as an A4-A30 short cut.

[bjcc]

Paper Tiger

Q1. Any person. As cars cannot go anywhere without a person connected with it in some way, that answers your point.

Q2. There is no difference between your front Garden and a place of buisness. Except, some places of buiness have bye laws, like Heathrow. That makes straight trespass a criminal not a civil offence.

Q3. I have not worked at Heathrow for 5 years, so I can't answer that question.

Q4. Yes, the Eastern & North Perri are used as cut throughts between the A4 and the A30, it is tollerated by the BAA, mainly because without a check point on each entrance it would be impossible to prevent it being used as such. It does not mean you have a right to do so. I have known the BAA close it. As it's their road, they have that right.

[MAN777]

heres a question for the people with knowledge of road traffic law, if the perimeter roads are private, do the vehicles on them need insurance, mot, tax and the drivers a licence ?

A previous poster suggests the BAA tolerate their use, I would suggest that the BAA dont really have much choice in the matter, the closure or restriction would cause chaos for the airport and local economy.

Also being that the road network has been open to the public for so many years is there not some sort of right of way issues ?

[paulc]

If the BAA actually provided a decent facilities for spotter/enthusiasts/photographers then there would be no need to try and find areas which may bring them into conflict with the authorities. If other major airports such as Manchester, Zurich, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Munich, Dusseldorf & others can provide excellent facilites (including ramp tours) then surely any of the London airports should be able to do the same. People do not mind a) paying for a good facility or b) having to undergo a security bag scan etc. It could be another source of money for BAA and

If spotters etc were in one place then surely it would make the job of policing the airport easier?

[ALLDAYDELI]

This discussion has got very interesting. Some useful exchanges.
I feel that the spotting facilities at LHR need to be improved in many ways. Look at Manchester, how enjoyable that is and how well provided/managed it is (ok its not BAA but a different managment entity). Yes there is an entry fee but it is reasonable and a worthy cause. BAA are a business and into money making, why not charge spotters a small fee for a decent facility. As well they could provide security screening to get into these facilities as well like on top at Frankfurt.

I am glad someone raised the A30/A4 cut thru issue, I thought the same! Som much thru traffic, how much %age of these vehicles are airport related business.

What about the policy of LHR as a world class transportation hub. Are we then not allowed to make a bus or coach/rail connections from Heathrow if we are NOT bona fide air passengers? Technically it would appear not.
Example Kingston on Thames to LHR the National Express to Wolverhampton.

On the subject of signage on the perimieter and entry points, pay attention to the large BAA corporate signs even on the fences and crash gates advising that its "airport business only".

Did anyone answer that last question of "when did someone last jump over the fence"?? Extremely stupid and irresponsible act, certainly bringing the fraternity into disripute and definitely will involve the Police.

[bjcc]

MAN777

Heathrow is covered by the Road Traffic Acts, as it is a road or other public place.

A Public Place is one to which the public have access, on payment, or otherwise.

However, the public access is restricted, to the classes of person already mentioned.

While a foot ball ground is a public place, the management is able to restrict access to those they wish to let in and not to others. I accpet that a fooball ground doesn't have roads, but the part that applies is public and restricted.

Heathrow is the same.

So yes, you need a drivers licence. Yes you need insurance. Yes you need a MOT. When I was there you did not need tax, that was because although it was a road, it was not maintained at the public expense. BAA maintain it. Now, the need for tax may have changed.

The BAA do have a choice in the matter. The road has been closed by them on more than one occation. It's theirs, they can do what they like. Yes when it is closed, it does cause some congestion, although as it became known it was closed people just went up the A30 to the A4 and turned left, or found another route.

paulc

Yes it would be easier if there was one place. But, where would you put it? apart from the central area, which is already congested, the perri would only offer a restricted view. Even if there was a suitable place, would everyone use it, or would those that wanted a different apect do what they do now, and indeed did when QB was open?

[Full Emergency]

heres a question for the people with knowledge of road traffic law, if the perimeter roads are private, do the vehicles on them need insurance, mot, tax and the drivers a licence ?

Yes they do. They are classed as public highways for the purpose of the Road Traffic Act. It is also classed as 'public places' for other legislation issues, such as the carraige of Offensive Weapons.

BUT

As it BAA property they can put bye-law legislation in place, which will prevent them from saying who can and can not be there. Yes I know that people use it as a short cut, but technically they shouldn't.

FE

[Full Emergency]

Now, the need for tax may have changed.

Yes it has. You need tax for the peri roads I'm sure, but not in the Central Terminal Area. (I might be wrong on this, so I'll check when I back in work.)

FE

[Full Emergency]

Edited by me.

FE

[ALLDAYDELI]

dont think you do need tax for the roads in the CTA. A few years ago, some of the Green/Grey/White single deck Inter-Terminal buses, operating for BAA, ran around without tax discs as they were "exempt". When they had to go off airport for maintenance or test, they had to wear trade plates.

[paulc]

3rd time lucky - even though I have been logged (according to toolbar) last 2 attempts to reply have failed.

BAA are spending a considerable amount of money on T5 and some facility for the public could have easily been incorporated into the design. (The same could be said for T4 and security/paranoia was not an issue then) LHR when 09L is used for landings is very poor for those wishing to photograph etc. 27's are ok as there are a few known places that are used. People would probably continue to use these even if a facility were offered, unless it was in such a great position as to be of interest. (the centre of LHR is not that good) The lack of interest from BAA in meeting the needs of enthusiasts/photographers etc is obvious and until such time as this attitude changes the situation is not going to improve. My local airport is the same - the observation area has been closed to increase the size of the departure lounge so locals gather on the car park roof. (BAA owned as well)

The LHR visitor centre is a joke - into the sun, too low and expensive to park (when car park is open!)

Other major airports (Manchester, Zurich, Frankfurt, Munich, Dusseldorf, Amsterdam, Tokyo, Osaka + many others) are able to provide facilities for the enthusiast/photographer and the 'meeter & greeters' - why is it that the UK generally seems to fail so badly. Some of those above have ramp tours to allow people airside in buses to see what goes on and to educate people on how an airport operates. If LHR wants to generate a good public image particularly with any future development then surely this would be a positive step.
Zurich also has a point between 2 runways that you are allowed off the bus for 15-20 mins and this is very close to departing traffic. I appreciate that security is an issue but to use it as an excuse not to have any facilites is a bit ott. The QB at LHR could be re-opened (although is, at best, poor but it is better than nothing) and I am sure people would not mind paying a nominal charge or going through a security check (as per FRA & ZRH) As for LGW - the total lack of facilites there is a real shame and so it is not worth visiting unless flying out.

[ALLDAYDELI]

paulc, good points raised. Closest we get is that BAA do T5 bus tours for local residents on Fridays. Guess what, no cameras!!! Cameras are not permitted on these tours, anyone know why the hell not//

[BOAC]

3rd time lucky - even though I have been logged (according to toolbar) last 2 attempts to reply have failed - still some 'teething' problems on site, paulc, apologies offered on behalf of 'PPRune Computer overhaul and upgrade services inc' and thanks for sticking with it:ok:

[paulc]

BOAC,

no problem - a 'cookie enema' did the trick :eek:

[BOAC]

I think I saw one of those advertised in the personal ads of the Telegraph:) :)

[ThreadBaron]

I have twice been approached by the police, in both instances they were in plain clothes and unmarked vehicles, as I was standing on the ARMCO protecting a parking area (outside the fence) adjacent to the met (wx not Police) station (inside the fence) on the south side of the Northern Perimeter road.

I was with a friend (who is Seychellois), hoping to photograph one of the first Air Seychelle landings after the move of the service from LGW.

The officers were non-threatening and polite and asked for identification. Production of passport, driving licence, them making a quick radio call and it was over. It was a very professional interface. They left to go about their business leaving me to go about mine. We were not warned nor asked to move on.

Now, I will admit that it could be argued that we were preventing them from whatever else it is they might have been doing, but so might anybody else walking along the footpath immediately alongside the perimeter fence. I will also admit that should I see anything suspicious, in my eyes, I will report it.

One's rare visits are now,more or less, restricted to Myrtle Avenue. I do not collect registrations, photograph only what is not the norm and have a lifelong fascination with aviation, and the fact that 10s of tons of metal, flesh and fuel behave so beautifully when in the air.

[MAN777]

Passing LHR last week, took a look at the progress at T5, all I can say is WOW. They have built that in the time its taken me to tile my bathroom !, I must admit I am crap at DIY.

Arrivals were landing from the west and looking very impressive in the winter sunlight , what was even more impressive in my eyes (being a photographer) is the potential new vantage points at T5, approach roads, embankments, car parks etc, I think its going to be quite a mecca for photographers, that is if its not spoilt by the BAA security management.

[Lite]

My reasoning for joining the airline industry in the first place was because of two things. Firstly, my love of travel - I've always enjoyed learning about where people come from, how their culture is different from mine as well as trying to pick up some phrases from the language. Secondly, I've always been fascinated by aircraft - whilst not to the extent that I would sit on a freezing Saturday morning at the edge of the runway taking down numbers or photographing, I still enjoy working around the aircraft.

I think a major problem in satisfying the needs of the aviation enthusiast, as well as opening up the airline industry so people know more about us rather than being a faceless industry, is the fact that many viewing decks have been closed. Whilst space is at a premium, it is important to keep the industry open, especially to those curious. BHX & MAN have really gone the right way with this, by providing an enthusiast haven with views of the runways, taxiways & having shops related to aviation. Perhaps if these were reinstated, we would educate & inform future generations about the industry, as well as satisfying our spotters.

[QWERTY9]

I was stopped on the perimeter road at Farnborough Airport whilst the show was in progress. I was taking pictures of the landing aircraft at the time.

The 'excuse' given by the officer was that I was subject to the terroism act and he had the right to stop and question me about what I was doing as it was a suspicious activity. As is the case with many police officers, his tone and comments were extremely patronising. To cut a long story short I refused to answer his questions because of his tone and carried on taking pictures. He advised me that if i continued to refuse to answer that I would be liable to arrest. My reply was 'arrest me then'. Basically i was calling his bluff and it worked as he backed down from his confrontational manner to more of a general chit-chat.

I would assume that common sense and reason would be two, but to name a few of the essential qualities needed to be a police officer today. Sadly this doesn't seem to be the case as the story above shows. The reason I have shared this story is that this wasn't the first time i've been approached by the police for said activity and nor will it be the last, but it was the first time I've refused to coperate simply because I'd had enough of confrontational, arrogant, patronising people questioning my right to enjoy a legitimate pastime. They are the minority, but for my liking there are far too many of them about and they seem to be growing.
To those that have politely enquired as to my actions I have given a straight forward respone and will continue to do so, but for the others....................

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

I had the opposite happen to me at Heathrow last year when I was taking some photos at the end of 09L when a police officer on a bike pulled up, I thought he was going to shift me but no, the first thing he says is that there is no problem and then sat talking to us for about 40 mins about all sorts including spotting, photography, his job including where he thought it was OK to park and only left when he had a call.
Perhaps if a few other officers spent a little time like that a lot might be gained
re security and making their job easier by people not parking in bad places etc

G-I-B

[captain cumulonimbus]

Certainly,hats off to those police who are decent,understanding,outgoing individuals.I had a similar thing,also while taking pix at the end of 09L by Longford village a couple years back.Two police in a van stopped,got out,asked what i was doing and had a look in my notebook-no problems,then had quite a good chat till they were called off again.There's an example o them doing their job well,while respecting what is a very legitmate spotter presence.Good on them.

As so many people have said,cooperation between spotters and police could be put to such good use as a force for good in preventing crime.