How Many Rotorheads...

[MightyGem]

...does it take to change a nav light?

1 to change the nav light and to post that the nav light has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing nav lights and how the nav light could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing nav lights

7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing nav lights

5 to flame the spell checkers

3 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "navlight" or "nav light"

... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
"position light"

15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "nav light" is perfectly correct

19 to post that this forum is not about nav lights and to please take this discussion to a navlight forum

11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use nav
lights and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum

36 to debate which method of changing nav lights is superior, where to buy the best nav lights, what brand of nav lights work best for this technique and what brands are faulty

7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different nav lights

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to
this group which makes nav lights relevant to this group

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the nav light controversy

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

13 to say "do a Google search on nav lights before posting questions about nav lights"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

[Whirlybird]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Paradism]

MightyGem

Sorry to be a pest but could you clarify whether your post is addressing the question of replacing a nav light assembly or just changing a bulb (or is that a filament")?

[Whirlygig]

I was told not to call them "bulbs" but "lamps". Bulbs are what yer daffs grow from!!

Cheers

Whirls

[stan bycompass]

Don't forget to add

10 posts re the sad loss of the nav light and thoughts for the family

3 posts re the cause of the failure of the nav light

3 posts stating how inappropriate to speculate on the failure at this stage and their thoughts for the family of the nav light

1 post about sick sense of humour about nav light posts

3 posts about not taking things to seriously and getting a life

4 posts lowering the tone as insults get personal re the above

1 moderator deleting the topic

[Gerhardt]

$5 says Heliport moves this to Jet Blast.

But an incredibly funny thread. A+ for ingenuity.

[Gordy]

$50 says he doesn't.



27 waiting for NickLappos and SASless to weigh in with their opposing opinions on the matter.

Great thread.

[stan bycompass]

AND.......

1 post from Thomas Coupling re the fact that EC135 Nav lights return 98% serviceability

1 post from PA NEWS re the fact that Eurocopter are brilliant and MD are rubbish

1 post from an MD 902 pilot re the fact that the NOFIL filament free navlight system means it is not a problem for him

9 posts from UK police MD902 operators re spares for nav lights

1 post from silsoe sid re the fact that his engines are fine???!!!

[MightyGem]

But an incredibly funny thread. A+ for ingenuity
Thank you, but sadly not my idea originally. So, does anyone see themselves, or indeed other Ppruners in the list. :rolleyes:

[Farmer 1]

That's even more than it takes to change a pos light.

[Gerhardt]

I see both whirly girls...but only when I close my eyes.

[peterperfect]

and a post from a lost stovie meandering through the forum writing:

"I agree that navs are important, and deserve their own lights, but without pilots they wouldnt be airborne in the first place".


Mighty Gem: Best post I've read on pprune for yonks. ..Happy New Year, more of the same in 2006.

[helicopter-redeye]

.... surely this must end with "And a Nav Light in a Pear Tree".


??:confused:

[Whirlygig]

No, I'm not there. So there should be an addendum:-

1 to point out that it's not the bean-counter's fault that the nav lights keep popping!

5 to add, as hopeful wannabes, what can be done to prevent this in the future so that we can become better pilots?

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorcraig]

1 to ask for clarification as to whether this was an R22 nav light; if so then it was designed incorrectly in the first place and so was bound to fail.

1 to point out that in 10,000 hours they have never had a nav light fail cos they are such a good pilot.

1 to point out that they have had 3 fail in 3,000 hours but their training kicked in on each occasion, they handled the situation and are a better a pilot for the experience.

1 to repeat whatever their instructor said about what to do in the event of a failed nav light, even though they didn't understand it at the time and have never actually experienced a failed nav light since.

1 to post a link to a commercial site selling really cheap nav lights (but the link gets deleted by the mods).

RC

[Gerhardt]

1 to say that he's waiting to hear what NickLappos has to say about the situation.

4 to identify books on the subject, while the rest of us are amazed that there ARE books on the subject.

3 to make sexual references about nav lights.

[ShyTorque]

It only takes one pilot to change the bulb.

He holds it and the world revolves around him.

Don't tell anyone I said that. ;)

[Whirlygig]

He holds it and the world revolves around him
Ain't that the truth! HE being the operative word here I think! :p

Cheers

Whirls

[overpitched]

Oh and 1 of me asking..."can someone please explain what a nav light is??"

Damn I nearly forgot 2 of my regular favourites

"sorry this may have been answered already but can anyone tell me how many nav lights I need to change before I can instruct in the UK"

And everyone's favourite "My whingeing pilots have to pay for their own nav lites if they want to get their daily cold meat and salad."

[Whirlygig]

Overpitched

You must be quoting Gymble here!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Mark Six]

...and 1 incredibly boring post from Dave Jackson re the next generation of nav lights...

[Robbo Jock]

And, of course, Nick wades in with something along the lines of:

You all behave without a brain in your heads, when the nav light fails, you replace it. We train you for years to spot the failure and slap in a new light as THE emergency. Rather than all this discussion about nav lights and their failures, you should be asking WHY we have this stone age equipment in the first place.

RJ

(Don't hit me !!!)

[rotorcraig]

... and 5 from students that are keeping diaries of their PPL(H) training, comparing notes and congratulating each other on their first solo nav light change.

RC

[Gymble]

My only concern is the cost of the damage all you lot will cause by attempting maintenance that you are not aptly licensed to carry out.

Rule of thumb for us pilots. If we require a tool of any kind, it is to complicated. To much time in the air-conditioning is bad for engineers health anyway.

[Teefor Gage]

Talking of aviation lights, here's a thought for the day -

Why is it that even when you have the anti-collision lights switched on, you can still bump into things..........?

Maybe somebody should investigate this under the trade description act.......

[ShyTorque]

There will be thread creep about why we have red on the left when surely green is more logical. And someone asking about landing lights.

This will spawn another concurrent thread about the history of navigation lights and Herr Draper will make a guest appearance to talk about marine lights and big ships and Linda Bellingham's chest.

Beagle will tell us about how nav lights were much brighter in his day and anyway he had a batman to change his bulbs.

Someone will go on Agony Aunts to say how he has failed to successfully change a light bulb.

PruneFan#1 will pipe up to say that blown lightbulbs are caused by pilots making shallow approaches and getting hit by farmer's flying hats....any pilot blowing a light bulb will get fired......

and of course Gymble will complain about the intelligence of his pilots not being up to changing light bulbs.......oh, he did that already?

:E :ok:

[Whirlygig]

Rule of thumb for us pilots
Us pilots? US pilots! 'Cuse me while I pick mesel' up off the floor!

If we require a tool of any kind, it is to complicated
Does that include your brain?

Just askin'

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorcraig]

... and 1 will post lots of complicated quotes from the ANO and related documents.

They will conclude that the documents contribute little or no clarity as to the legal position around the changing a nav light bulb (in fact that they appear to contradict each other) and will ask Flying Lawyer what he thinks.

RC

[Whirlygig]

... whereupon Flying Lawyer will be conspicuous by his absence as he is discussing the finer points of the remuneration status of magistrates with our good friend U-R!

In the meantime, the girls will just see that the lamp needs changing. Go to stores with appropriate docket and change lamp as required! Job done. Everyone happy!

Cheers

Whirls

[swordfling]

Don't forget the 35 who want to know what the 'nav light changing' job market is like at the moment, and whether or not they should give up their current job as an anti-collision light changer...

[SilsoeSid]

stan bycompass
1 post from silsoe sid re the fact that his engines are fine???!!!

As the subject title is "How Many Rotorheads...
...does it take to change a nav light? "......

......One could, IMHO, safely assume that the whole unit is being replaced and not just the lamp/bulb/filament. (Otherwise it would say, "....replace a nav bulb? "!.)

Why would we need to replace the unit?

Perhaps because an engine is producing a lot of soot which is deposited on the red/green or at a push, white lens.

This soot layer gradually builds up and in turn retains the heat from the filament within the unit causing the filament to blow and thereby possibly damaging the holder and also the lens.

Therefore, as I have not had to change a nav light recently, I can quite happily say that my engines must be fine, as they don't seem to be producing the soot deposits that are the cause of the nav light to be replaced. in the first place!

http://bbaa.de/fileadmin/files/offline_praesentation/firmenseiten/bilder/27b.jpg

I Wish A Happy New Year To You All!!!

:ok:
SS

[swordfling]

I think we've grossly underestimated the complexity of this seemingly simple issue...

[diginagain]

Don't forget the 35 who want to know what the 'nav light changing' job market is like at the moment, and whether or not they should give up their current job as an anti-collision light changer...

..........and come back in three months time to ask again, when the bottom falls out of the lamp market.

[SASless]

I just don't know what to think....not one of yez questioned whether that was considered "airwork" or "public transport" if one fetched the new lamp from stores....or what license one would have to hold in order to the swap without pay on a commercial machine located on private property at night during inclement weather?

[diginagain]

at night during inclement weather

Couldn't happen in the UK, the Health and Safety people would have you locked up.

[overpitched]

Sasless

I can't believe any ppruner would ever consider changing a nav light in inclement weather. We all know that's how you end up a statistic

[rotorfan]

Uh, I've changed quite a few bulbs in flashlights over the years, and, uh, even a few in automobiles. I was, uh, thinking about a career in changing helicopter bulbs. Would I be better off if I did training in Kenya, Burma or Peru? Can I convert to JAA after that?? :\

[What Limits]

Request permission to lurk and then post something with nothing to say just to keep up the number of posts.

What ever happened to them?

[BigMike]

rotorfan, simple answer, no. The JAA will make you sit at least 14 exams, medical, and a practical light changing test, plus spend a bucket load of cash, to prove you reach the European standard.

[MightyGem]

Plus 1 post from me saying: "Sorry I asked."

[peterperfect]

Has anyone checked on the 'Where are they now' Forum to see if anyone is seeking the whereabouts of a nav light changer who was on their Wasp Flight during the Falklands ?

Got coat already.

[Trevors cat]

I am new to nav lights.

Am I better off learning how to change R22 Nav lights or should I learn how to change S300 Nav Lights instead.

Also, once I am qualified, which is the best country to gain experience changing these Nav Lights, with a view to becoming a commercial nav light changer, and then a Nav Light changing instructor.

I have done a search but cannot find any reference to said Nav Lights.

[rotorcraig]

Your best bet is to join the RAF and let the Queen pay for you to learn to change nav lights.

Then come out and do the necessary CAA approved training to change civilian nav lights (infinitely simpler but requires more paperwork and money).

RC

[SASless]

If the lamp requiring change is on a local area training aircraft that does not leave the local area....can it be called a "nav light"?

What would it be called?

Do we call them "Nav" lights because they are not very bright?

[MightyGem]

Do we call them "Nav" lights because they are not very bright
Hope you've got your tin hat on there SASless.

[diginagain]

Suppose for similar reasons, the AAC called them 'JAFO' lights. (One of KENNYR's oft-used epithets, ISTR).

[Jim Dean]

Or is it a globe???

[Up & Away]

Whats the score so far?

[Wunper]

And don't forget at least 3 who will add that if the tail rotor had been properly balanced the Nav light would have lasted longer.

There will then be further hair splitting on whether it was excessive N per rev that was trashing the Nav lights or main drive shaft imbalance which will spawn more flaming attacks on the less informed from those in the know.

And for good measure a few old salts will heap condemnation on all new aircraft types for having higher than desireable vibration levels at their certified cruise speeds.

Belter of a thread! Lu must be having a ball somewhere:ok:

[BoeingMEL]

..and please..dont forget a tabloid journo to tell the world: ":cool: Pilot lands plunging helicopter after complete electrical failure..." bm

[SASless]

Please don't forget the passengers who were terrified and thought they were going to die when they learned of the loss of the tail light....and how they are now going to get their Union involved to ensure they do not have to risk death by the operators using that brand of bulb/lamp!

[SmashTheVSI]

...Ahhhhh
I thought you only turned those green/red lights on at christmas, or when a boat reached 501feet...will my navigation improve if I leave them on for the full circuit?

[Chairmanofthebored]

Then "John Ecott" will post a grainy photo of the said Navlights on the side of a Wessex on some ancient aircraft carrier while SAS lads are loading for a walk around Malaysia, "Blenderpilot" will host the photo, "Ned" will travel to South Africa to shoot the navlight in action during a rhino darting mission, and the navlight photo will grace the February 2006 ROTORHEADS calendar, "Mama Mangrove" will enquire about the state of navlights in West Africa, "IHL" will comment that he once saw that navlight on a 76 offshore and "Steve76" will blame the retarded discussion on the pathetic english hogging the forum!....
:}

[Gymble]

I’d like to take this opportunity to thank all involved in this incident for their maturity in dealing with this safety issue. It goes to highlight the value of a comprehensive approach to safety.
If it weren’t for the Rig Pigs that spotted this potential hazardous anomaly and raised the require incident report, the said defect could well have been the first link in the chain that may well have lead to a catastrophe.
You see, we regard our Rig Pigs as crew. In a mature organization as ours, CRM doesn’t stop with the people that actually have legal responsibilities.
You will doubtlessly be impressed to hear that the Safety Committee has thoroughly thrashed this issue out and have come up with a set of mitigators.

The Safety Committee consists of 2 x Rig Pig, 2 x Pilot, The office girl. The human resources manager, 2 x Crew men and the CEO’s dog. The following recommendations were considered:
1. Replace the existing Nav Lights with High intensity light emitting diodes like the ones on the back of trucks.
2. Wire a second set of lights in parallel.
3. Shock mounting the existing lights.
4. Calculate the average mean time between failures of nav lights throughout the entire fleet and pre-emptively replace the bulbs at intervals calculated to include a 50% safety factor.

I suggested replacing the old bulb with a new one but this idea was dismissed and I was criticized for not thinking outside the square.

As the contract will be up for renewal shortly we will be going with the Rig Pig’s suggestions.

[Flingwing207]

...and the ease with which you can get into a low-voltage situation with R22 nav lights will be hotly debated.

[peterperfect]

I knew someone who flew LAMPS Mk I and III in the 90's.... could he help ?

[SASless]

Could this be yet another apect of "Ground Effect" that needs discussing?

[Sandy Toad]

Then Chairmanofthebored will have to be corrected by an Old Salt that John Eacott was a Pinger in the Fleet Air Arm and therefore didn't fly the SAS but dangled his ball in the oggin.:)

[peterperfect]

1 post from a spotter who had just been through grandad's attic and found a nav light (with a photo attached), Gramps flew Belvederes in Malaya yet it could come from any RW type: could anyone identify it ?

[diginagain]

Still awaiting the post from a former V-Force member to point out that V-bomber lamps were much stronger, as they had to form an integral part of the nuclear deterrent, which, as we all know, contributed so much to the freedoms we now have to post information on topics such as the integrity of our aircraft.

[SHortshaft]

Don’t forget the Rotorhead who will be keen to know whether the green or red navigation light (position filament) fails more often and whether there is any variation in that statistic for helicopters operating in the southern hemisphere. Not to mention whether American or European manufacturers' machines are more at risk of suffering this failure.

[peterperfect]

............I was driving past Bude on Saturday and I saw a yellow nav light hovering over the cliff practicing with a Coastguard team. My friend told me the best nav lights were painted grey and red, should I join them ?

[CyclicRick]

This thread is one of the reasons I joined Pprune in the first place..has any body mentioned if the nav light is green or red? Colour blindness issue here somewhere :}

[effortless]

When I go for my Nav Light qualification will my logged hours of Lav Light changing be taken into account? Is it hour for hour? Will it have to be Lav Light changer in charge (LLCIC) hours? How many landing lights will I have to change to maintain competency in a twenty four month period under JAR?

[vaqueroaero]

What happens if sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't? Does this warrant changing it, or repairing the one currently in use?

If it does need replacing after how many hours can a solo student do it, and is it subject to an SFAR?

[2beers]

There should be at least 2 posts saying that "PPRuNe is open for all people, don't debate it here or the authorities - or even worse - journos will find out that pilots actually changes the lights."
Cheers!
/2beers

[SHortshaft]

And then there is the Rotorhead who will inform us that…
“Pedantic Helicopters reported another multiple position light failure today. This is the third occurrence in a week when it has been reported that all three filaments failed simultaneously.
After the Engineering Department reported yet again that there was ‘no fault found’ the company’s Director - Safety has agreed to look into the possibility that it is a Human Factors problem. Rumour has it that the company Check List calls for ‘Navigation Lights – ON’ prior to start up however it is understood that the switch on this type of helicopter is actually labeled ‘Position Lights’.
Following a meeting with the Chief Pilot it has been agreed that the recently recruited young pilot in question will undergo a retraining programme; just as soon as his bruises have healed and he is able to sit down again.”

[outhouse]

I have just been informed by the French Airworthiness Authorities that as the subject of Nav Light maintenance and operation has such an important airworthiness’ implication that the term Nav Light (Feu de Navigation) will no longer be the approved wording as this can cause confusion in identification of the lights in question. In future the only accepted wording will be Feu de Position. This change of wording and the identification of the far reaching airworthiness implications has so alarmed the authority that with immediate effect all commercial pilots both fixed and rotary must undergo training in the operation and maintenance of this system. This training is to include simulator exercises in operation and emergency procedures to be carried out in the event of system failure. All system failures must be now reported to the authority within 24 hours, the report is to include aircraft type, details of the failure and the actions taken to rectify the failure. A data base will be available to allow operators and pilots to identify problem areas.
outhouse

[Rotortiger]

Vaqueroaero, a light that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't is called a strobe! our engineers infrom me it doesn't need changing until the not working period exceeds the working period by >1 hour!!:uhoh:

[Teefor Gage]

A little ditty to help you remember what Nav lights are for:-

Red to Red or Green to Green
Keep going straight, all's serene

When Red and Green are seen up front
Full speed ahead and ram the chap

[MightyGem]

chap
Hmmm...that doesn't rhyme. :}

[N Arslow]

I understand the French Aviation Authorities have released further regulations concerning the fitment of replacment Feu de Position. No aircraft registered outside the country of France shall fly within it's airspace unless all Feu de Pos have been fitted within the constraints of its regulations and signed for in la langue francais. Furthermore, if this work is carried out by a pilot then he shall be in possesion of a french issued licence, suitably endorsed.

[spinwing]

mmmm... You forget that the pilot carrying out the work must not be aged 55 or older because his ability to change the Nav light correctly will be diminished!!!

:p :p :p :p :ok:

[outhouse]

In a major item on Sky News tonight it was said that the President of the United States would be addressing the nation tonight regarding the seriously worsening political situation after the European Airworthiness Authorities had fully adopted the French mandatory regulations regarding Feu de Position. This action by the European authorities without consultation was an infringement of international liberties it was said. The US Secretary of State has requested a special meeting of the UN Security Council and will be presenting a report received from the Department of Homeland Security on the matter. The immediate sailing of two carrier groups toward the European Mainland was stressed to be just part of the joint maneuvers with NATO forces held on a regular basis.

[peterperfect]

The Daily Mail reports that the Bush and Cheney family have financial interests in several Nav Light manufacturers and that Iran's reopening of the Nuclear facilities is a front for a secret tungsten wire factory that can affect the export prospects of a coalition wire factory within 45 minutes.

[rjsquirrel]

The Halliburten bid to maintain all Nav Lights and Feus de Positions on all helicopters has been let without competition. For $175,000 per aircraft, Halliburtin will assure that all such lights are properly marked as to On or Off, or Not Servicable. The second contract for replacement of these Not Servicable bulbs is being negotiated.

Pilots who refuse to permit Halliburten to approach their bulbs will be duct-taped, sand-bagged and questioned by uniformed civilians, winners of another sole-source contract, "Fingernail extraction of indigenous personnel" but we are not permitted to know more.

Don't worry, you are in good hands.

[peterperfect]

Jeez, the situation gets worse.....

Time Magazine reports that Niger has secretly been exporting several consignments of high grade ochre; essential for the manufacture of red polycarbonate, a Venzuelan dye trader trader based in Dubai has just been abducted by six earpiece wearing square jawed western individuals dressed as window cleaners and flown to Diego Garcia in a white N-reg Gulfstream registered to a Langley, VA Zip Code.

OK, so we are in Thread Drift State Mauve, who cares !!!???

[What Limits]

And the dye used to colour the red polycarbonate - none other than Sudan 1. Highly carcinogenic and all aircraft are grounded until the lamp cover is changed.

[Gaseous]

Oh bugger, today I noticed my aft port nav light has blown. Does this mean I'm going to be overrun by hoards of mad Ppruners??? (actually I changed it all by myself - am I banned from the forum now?)

[SASless]

Well....so long as the Longshoreman's union doesn't catch wind of you taking their work you might be okay...however if they file a grievance with the union...you might be in real trouble. One must be very careful around the Port. If you do not have a quay, you might find yourself with no place to park.

[moosp]

And using the opinion of the presiding umpire at the 1965 Barnsley Convention as precedent who quoted the Air Navigation Order (Navigation and Marine Lights Ordinance (1923)) and the ratification of this at the Esher Tennis club finals of 1989 the only move that can be allowed without a three filament penalty is to KINGS CROSS.

Oh, Sorry pardon, wrong forum. :O :O ;)

[MBJ]

Excellent post Mighty Gem and all!

Can I apply for the role of lurker?:E