Changes in the West

[topend3]

Changes to Skipper's and Skywest's routes take place from next week, after August's decision to split the regional routes into two networks for tender.

Skywest end services to Leonora and Leinster tomorrow, and take up Kalbarri and Monkey Mia from next week, apparently to the delight of local businesses who will be bad to see the back of bad service and unreliable schedules, coupled with a lack of support for the region as demonstrated by Skippers.

Skywest have also recently been awarded a contract to service the Granites minesite ex PER with F50 from next Thursday, twice weekly. Was this an NJS contract previously???

[Capt Claret]

Topend,

That it was.

I believe it was the longest sector distance regularly flown by a DH8 in the WWW (whole wide world). Somthing like 800 nm I think KG-TGT.

[Hugh Jarse]

Jeez Clarrie...800nm!

And I thought YSSY-YLHI was longhaul:} :}

How did you stay awake?:p

[Dehavillanddriver]

Interestingly enough - and the regulator should be interested in this - it is an ETOPS route.

There are no adequates within 60 mins for a considerable period on this route.

This applied to NJS as well who just ignored that little fact....

[topend3]

Very interesting...so how would this affect XR? It will be approximately 4 hr sector in the Fokker PH-TGT, and 4hr30min on the return leg...

[Capn Bloggs]

Guaranteed revenue on some sectors so they can compete on others. That's fair. :suspect:

[neville_nobody]

NJS used Warburton as an enroute alternate and for extra fuel in the winter. However I think you will find that a F50 is too heavy for it so it will be interesting what XR used for an alternate. I imagine Ayers Rock would be about it.

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

My Champers Fright Planner friend says it be a 1031nm sector.
:sad:

For the more ETOPS-challenged amongst us, what would be the applicable figures for the 60min divert business?? ie. speeds etc.

And why the hell wouldn't the site be serviced from AD or closer still, DN??

Politics to be sure! :rolleyes:

[neville_nobody]

Probably cheaper to fly them direct than to the rock on QF then on the Pearl metro. If they move say 40 guys each way a week that's 160 airfares. Charter starts looking the cheaper option.

[topend3]

correct...NJS used to go PH-KG, overnight, then up to TGT, so XR going diirect out of PH is heaps better for everyone...

[Richo]

Hi T3

Well the Granits, sounds like lots of fun, and lots of time sitting in the same place too. Hope the mine is still going strong.
Like the rest I am curious about the ETOPS thingie, well he would of have done his homework on this, so must not be a problem with Kiwirikara about the right distance. Funny enough, though Warburton seems unsitable (not quite sure about that nevile) due to weight, there are no problems with gravel strips ie CNF.

Lots of rumours on the field about the NJS D8's leaving town, hay who knows XR may get some more work out of it.

Still curious about the west RPT route structure. Will XR or Skippers play the old one flight a week card on some of the charter operators like Maromba ETC. Could be intersting times ahead for MOG, WLU, LST.

Trust the little FOKKERS and the Big FOKKERS are all well.


Richo

[JetRacer]

correct...NJS used to go PH-KG, overnight, then up to TGT, so XR going diirect out of PH is heaps better for everyone...

I wish!!! Try a 3am sign on, 4am departure to KG, refuel, then to TGT, return to KG, refuel again, then back to Perth.

No luxury of an overnight, cost too much! :suspect:

Ahh well, life goes on :D

[alidad]

Yes Jet Racer,
When Ay was a lud, Hugh used to make me get up in the morning, 10:30 at night, an hour before ay went t' bed, fly 26 hours a day, pay Daniella for the privilege, with no crew meals, and when I got back he'd beat me with the tow bar, til I was bleedin' - if I were lucky..........................

[the wizard of auz]

Skywest end services to Leonora and Leinster tomorrow, and take up Kalbarri and Monkey Mia from next week, apparently to the delight of local businesses who will be bad to see the back of bad service and unreliable schedules, coupled with a lack of support for the region as demonstrated by Skippers.


I reckon someone is pulling ya leg there topend. I live here and know 95% of the business owners in the area, and I can assure you that that statement is quite inaccurate.

Most of the people up here don't even know who skippers are, and if it wasn't for the crew change contracts, they would never be seen up here.
The people around these parts call a F50 a little plane and are quite uncomfortable about getting in one. They are just plain going to refuse to use the Metros.
I think the Skippers crews will attest to how **** scared the crews that get on and off anything smaller than a 747, are.
maybe the Dash 8 will find a place here, but nothing smaller is going to get much of a reception.

[OverRun]

I’d be surprised if the F50 couldn’t use Warburton from a strength point of view. I haven’t got the figures to hand, but I thought its MTOW is similar to the Dash-8, and I think the F50 was rated for gravel operations (bit I’m open to correction on these in case my memory is too christmas befuddled).

I’ve flown into Warburton many years ago, and there are no swamps or marshes that would potentially disqualify it from having sufficient strength. It struck me as a typical bush gravel strip, with the surrounding ground being hard as a rock (whilst dry). That means that the runway is built on hard ground and should be up to the job. About the only concern could be in the wet if the whole area gets soaked – which leaves 9990 days out of 10000 available for use.

[Towering Q]

Warbo has been sealed for a few years now. It even has PAL and an auto weather station. The apron adjoining the refueling pad can get a tad sticky in the summer months.

The main concern lately has been the horses grazing along the edge of the strip.:uhoh:

[topend3]

Hey Wiz,

Long time no see. I think you mis-read my post, which may not have been that clear. What I meant to say was that the people of Kalbarri and Monkey Mia will be glad to see the back of Skippers.

I fully agree with you, that XR will be missed...

[the wizard of auz]

AH, your right, I did miss read it and stand corrected. sad day here due to sky west pulling out. not to many happy about it.

[Capt Claret]

My Champers Fright Planner friend says it be a 1031nm sector.

Maybe PH TGT but not KG TGT


For the more ETOPS-challenged amongst us, what would be the applicable figures for the 60min divert business?? ie. speeds etc.

240 nm, 250nm or 270 nm, depending on marque of Dash used.

And why the hell wouldn't the site be serviced from AD or closer still, DN??

Politics to be sure!

They did service TGT from Darwin for many years.

Why service it from PER? Because of the He who pays the fiddler calls the tune principal. The customer wanted a service ex PER, so, like any sensible service provider, NJS gave them a service ex PER.

Seems simple really. And, despite the time taken in a DH8/F50, I'm sure it'd be better on one aircraft than mainline PER to ADL, ADL to ASP, charter ASP to TGT.

[Dehavillanddriver]

I think your distances are a bit "optimistic" Clarrie

These distances are derived using single engine speeds and as such wouldn't be anywhere near 240,250 or 270 nm.

Somewhere around the 180nm mark I would have thought, but has been a number of years since I flew a Dash.

The F50 is slower and therefore the 60 min rings would be smaller - which makes it worse.....

[Capt Claret]

G'day Dehav,

You're right, you know. I've quoted AEO speeds not OEI speeds, and it's too long ago for me to remember the correct ones. Ooops. :\

[Checkerboard]

The ETOPS on this route is a very interesting one. Warburton does not meet the requirements for anything in Code 3c or above. This is due to the runway strip being only 80m wide and 90m is required. Having spoken to the surveyor about his one he says they cannot make it any wider as the local inhabitants have some "sacred land" on the side of the runway. I would like to therfore know how Skywest is using this runway for Etops requirements if in fact they are. Having planned and flown this route in a Brasilia from Perth I found the only suitable runway that met Etops requirements was Patjar but his poses additional problems as although the runway strip is 90m wide it is only 1400m long and therefore would only work for the Brasilia if alternate LDR factoring of 1.43% was applied. Departures out of The Granites also really need to be a minimum of 1hr before last light beacause if the aircraft experiences a problem up to half an hour from the Granites after departure(before it comes into range of Patjarr) will require a return to The Granites and with the unlit tower off the end of the runway you cannot land there after last light. It is an Etops and plannning nightmare from Perth and the Brasilia ETOPS requirements mean within 200nm of a suitable aerdrome, not sure what the distances are for the F50 but I would be interested to know how they are doing it.

[Dehavillanddriver]

if I was a betting man I would venture that they have not even considered the possibility.

It will get ignored and life will go on.

CASA need a good look at themselves

[VH-Cheer Up]

Maybe PH TGT but not KG TGT




240 nm, 250nm or 270 nm, depending on marque of Dash used.



They did service TGT from Darwin for many years.

Why service it from PER? Because of the He who pays the fiddler calls the tune principal. The customer wanted a service ex PER, so, like any sensible service provider, NJS gave them a service ex PER.

Seems simple really. And, despite the time taken in a DH8/F50, I'm sure it'd be better on one aircraft than mainline PER to ADL, ADL to ASP, charter ASP to TGT.
Where's TGT?

[Capt Claret]

TGT = The GraniTes

[VH-Cheer Up]

Ah, thanks Capt...

I was confused with IATA Port Code TGT in Tanzania. Serious ETOPS problem out of PER for a -8, F50, or pretty much any twin I suppose.

VHCU

[Towering Q]

Especially Perth to Tanzania.:eek:

[Stick Pusher]

I think you'll find that it is greater than 180nm. 60min S/E

But looking at the route options it seem meets all the requirements to me. I'm sure that professional companies like NJ and XR would have done all the required work and number crunching and met all of the requirements. (and CASA would have said something in their constant audits). If you have an issue perhaps you ring their flight ops departments, i'd think you'll find they wouldn't do it if they couldn't. I don't know what the fuss is all about...

SP

[Dehavillanddriver]

Pusher, I would be surprised if it is much more than 180 nm, I can't remember the correct numbers but it TAS's out on 2 at about 250-270 doesn't it?

What adequates are you using and what is the routing?

[Stick Pusher]

KG, ASP, Warberton (which does meet 90m etc) Balgo Hill to name just a few...no worries:ok:

[nig&nog]

To find an answer just get scarenorths flight planners to organise the route, cause with metros over water to dili and back with no life rafts or jammed in the nose locker they sure to have good friends in casa. By the way the dash on the route to the tgt with njs had a gravel kit so any road with the low pressure tyres became a suitable strip. long live the dash what a machine

[slice]

The Airnorth Metros did have liferafts for the legs to Dili, Baucau etc. The seat next to the emergency overwing exit was removed and a liferaft stapped down using the same douglas clips as the seats. Is this no longer done ?

[topend3]

hey wiz,

the punters out your way should be happy they have an air service at all, when you consider similar sized towns around oz have been left with no services. Skippers service is better than no service...just...

[the wizard of auz]

Mate, as far as I'm aware, Skippers don't come here for anything other than Mines charter/crewchange. I haven't seen any RPT here as yet. They all go out to places like Thunderbox, Murrin murrin, Darlot, sunrise dam, Ect. not into town itself.

[compressor stall]

Ah TGT - the Granites.

Worked out there one January for a few days, some of which was inside the mill - that big metal drum rotates. It was 47 degrees outside, and when we emerged from the mill, it was a relief to get out of the heat....

The following day flying home was the only time I have had the oil temps in the green BEFORE starting the engine.....

Do remember the pelicans in the water dam though... :ooh:

[Dog One]

Understand that Airnorth, Regional Pacific, Skywest and others have a CASA exemption againt the carriage of life rafts over specific routes. Think you will find that Airnorth are not required to carry rafts for RPT ops to Dili.

[lck186]

Dear All,

I can assure you that PH DCT TGT is 1030 nm, which the F50 will traverse in 248 minutes (nil wind, 260 kts).

Let's do the sums:

Empty Op Wt. = 13650 kgs
Full Fuel = 4050 kgs
TOTAL = 17700 kgs

Now, at 32C and nil wind, RTOWs / payloads are as follows:

Rwy 12 19920 kgs / 2220 kgs (19920-17700)
Rwy 30 20820 kgs / 3120 kgs (20820-17700)

So, at 94 kgs per pax (84 kgs + 10 kgs baggage), pax uplift ex TGT equals:

Rwy 12 23.6 pax
Rwy 30 33.2 pax

Remember, this is at 32C, nil wind enroute, nil holding at PH etc etc.

So, the direct service is not a goer, especially with full pax.

Perhaps via KG (deja vu NJS), and with enroute stop available?

Cheers,

LCK186

[RENURPP]

Stick Pusher, your blind faith in companies doing the correct thing and CASA actually ensuring they do is "interesting".

I would suggest just about every company out there is flaunting the rules, some know they are, others inadvertantly. The result is the same of course.

With regards to the 60 min business, I recall Scare North operating to Timika from Darwin, there is absolutley no way they could do that within 60 mins single engine in a Brasilia, but don't let that stop them. They used to stick the life raft in the nose locker of the metro, that in itself indicates their attention to the saftey of their passengers. Why take one at all? I wonder if management beieve the weight of safety equipment should be included in weight calculations?

[topend3]

Ick186 :

I can assure you they are doing it direct, I believe the first one leaves @ 0500 tomorrow...and pax loads are capped...

[Checkerboard]

Stick Pusher, for my own reference could I ask where you found that Warburtons RWS is 90m?? If it is I would be interested to know for my own benefit. Thanks

[Hawk777]

Capn Bloggs,

Now that all the RPT tenders have been won and awarded don't you think Skippers are in the same boat as XR?? They also have protected routes ie (guaranteed revenue) yet no one complains about them winning new charter contracts? Also NJS have got the Coastwatch contract (guaranteed revenue) and yet again no one complains about the charter work they do. I think now the routes have gone to tender and won fare and square there cannot be any more complaints.

Cheers

[cunninglinguist]

Alidad, I'm afraid conditions at NJS are not as good as you described, any more :{

[the wizard of auz]

Worked out there one January for a few days, some of which was inside the mill - that big metal drum rotates. It was 47 degrees outside, and when we emerged from the mill, it was a relief to get out of the heat....

The following day flying home was the only time I have had the oil temps in the green BEFORE starting the engine.....

Ah, the great old days. RIP grass hopper. :(
It was the only place in oz that I can recall almost fainting due to the heat. big thing for a desert dweller like myself.:eek:

[Towering Q]

Worked out there one January for a few days, some of which was inside the mill - that big metal drum rotates. It was 47 degrees outside, and when we emerged from the mill
Stallie....you guys did it tough! The mill was always stationary when we did our relines.:ok:

[SkySista]

Wiz, I think you'll find the RPT flights mentioned by another poster to YLEO by Skippers didn't start until 2nd Jan... I hear there was some sort of issue with fuelling equip not being installed in time at Leo - is this correct? Last time I was there it was just the BP card machine!! :)

And I'm thinking PER-LEO-LST-PER in a Metro would just be nasty this time of year...! Unfortunately if the punters would rather fly than drive there's no choice... but if I have my info correctly the trip has been flown by a D8 or EMB120 thus far... so, better than the cigar!! Maybe having a hostie will calm them down a bit... :p :E

[the wizard of auz]

there used to be an avtur truck here but due to lack of use it was relocated by BP. now there is a carnet bowser for avgas and nothing else. they don't even stock oil here anymore.
No jet A1 storage tanks here so they must be planning to bring up another tanker truck or some drum stock.