The RAF (Merged)

[AMiller]

Hello all,

If your son or best mate for example was thinking about joining the RAF shortly would you advise him otherwise? I mean I know it may be their dream etc and that nothing will stop them but lets talk about whether you'd join the RAF as a pilot right now.

Its over to you!

Andy

[Lara crofts pants]

Despite all the problems present in todays air force, most of them well documented on these forums, the RAF is still the only place that you can fulfil a dream of military flying (be it Fast Jet, rotary, Tac Hercs or whatever) so yes I would support them.

I myself am nearing the end of my PC and am looking forward to getting out next May, mainly due to the present problems and attitudes. Doesn't mean I regret joining in the first place though.

The feeling of pride that you get when your wings are pinned on for the very first time is unbeatable and shouldn't be denied anyone, if that's their ambition.

LCP

[The Swinging Monkey]

Yes,
Have to agree with Lara's Undies!
Despite everything (and there is a lot) it is still the best 'big-boys' flying club in the world.
Its just not as good as it was, but is anything ever as good??

Kind regards to all
TSM

[BATS]

Andy

Despite my imminent departure after 25 years, I would still recommend the Aircrew branches of the RAF as a great career for a youngster. I've had experiences that money cannot buy, seen places that I could never have afforded to visit (and of course some that I never want to see again.....) flown and worked with unique people who are like minded and truly professional. I guess the acid test would be if I had my time again, and no doubt I'd make the same mistakes, but I still wouldn't change anything. All in all, I've had a great time and there is nowhere out of uniform than can possibly give you the same range of experience.

BT

[Tandemrotor]

Of course "your son or best mate" should have the talk about laying down his life at the behest of the 'gentleman' currently residing at No 10 Downing St. (And of course by implication, also the White House!) That man's relationship with the concept of honesty and integrity, may form a part of any such discussion.

It's a great career. No question. But there are implications about accepting the Queen's shilling, that must be considered by anyone thinking of joining HM's "ARMED" forces!

Many too easily forget that.

[nutcracker43]

Andy,

I had 16 extremely happy and rewarding years in the Royal Air Force and regret not a thing. I echo the thoughts and feelings of
Bats, The Swinging Monkey and Lara Croft Pants.

Regarding Tandemrotors points: One knows that before joining, viz., that one could lay down ones's life at the behest of anyone reiding at no 10 Downing street... consider how many months of 'peace' the Services have enjoyed since 1805 and whether their concepts of honour and integrity were any different.

NC43

[Biggus]

There is a tendency on pprune for topics to be revisited a number of times over a period of time, such as requests for tips on joining the RAF, passing IOT, etc. Back in Feb 2003 I started a thread entitled 'Would you encourage your child to join the military?'. It ran for over a year I think, with nearly 100 replies on 5 pages. I would suggest this might be worth a read, as little has really changed.

If I was computer literate enough I would provide you with an automatic link to it, but you should be able to find it easily enough by searching, and no doubt somebody more competent than me may help by adding the link!

[SirToppamHat]

Here you go Biggus!

Biggus's Missing Link! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82439)

It's not that difficult you know!

STH

[Onan the Clumsy]

I often wish I had :(

[Pontius Navigator]

If asked about a career in the RAF the answer has to be a positive one for no other reason than the friend, mate or relative is already predisposed to join and is asking you for confirmation.

They are asking for tips and clues and not a NO.

The day Kennedy was short I went to a dinner. I, as a pilot officer, was introduced to an ex-sqn ldr aged about 35 (maybe 38) whose advice was resign. Twittered and bistered I thought and didn't. PS, in those days most sqn ldrs were pilots!

Then a year later, day one on my first operational station I met a copilot (the only aircrew on the station that day as the rest were flying) and he gave me one word of advice - resign.

Needless to say I ignored them both and never regretted it for a moment.

[Radoper]

Only Join as SNCO Aircrew or Comissioned. I did 13 years in the ranks and while I have some great memories and friends I just think if I knew then what I know now I would not have joined, even though the trade I had in the RAF was a benefit to what I do now. I cant believe the level of BS I took for so long. I now work half as much, for three times the pay, in a much better and satisfying work enviroment. And I am treated as a person and not a rank .. The question I would ask is .. what kind of a state is the RAF going to be in in say 5 to 10 years time ??

Exactly.

[16 blades]

The day Kennedy was short

..what, like he went to buy a pack of tabs and only had 2 quid in his pocket?....

:E

16B

[AMiller]

Pontius Navigator, nutcracker43, Tandemrotor and others,

You have all made really good comments. I can fully understand them. However, the air force is not the same now as it was then is it? (As Radoper was suggesting).

My feeling is yes join if you really want to do it. But as has been witnessed here there are a few individuals that still cant see this. They would recommend join join join as they still live in the 1980's.

Cant you see that people already in are being stirred around? God knows what the newbies will be put through. . . . And if it does work in cycles then what I have suggested would be crap as the newbies would be coming in at a good time. However, the RAF is shrinking and its roles and assets have changed dramatically. Therefore in my opinion the goal posts have been moved and the situation for newbies is one that is not so positive.

What do you all think?

Andy

[Dunhovrin]

15 years from now your mates who joined in 2006 will be banging on about how it's not like the good old days when we still had Cyprus and were doing a proper job in Basra instead of keeping the 'peace' in ummm [map..finger..stab] Greenland.

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose. As the SWO used to say.

PS.Tell 'em to join but if they don't know in what job - remember there are only two kinds of people in the world: Pilots and Pax.

[foldingwings]

Andy,

Do you believe everything that you read in a newspaper? If yes, then believe what you like from the answers that you are receiving here. If the answer is no, then analyse what you are being told and advise your 'mate' accordingly.

Most of the responses here are from people who appear to genuinely have enjoyed their time in the RAF. Most, I suspect, are aircrew and, from your initial post, it would appear that that is also 'your mate's dream'.

Some of the people who participate in PPRuNe are cynical sods, who are content to throw stones from hyperspace! Interestingly, they are all either taking an extended Christmas break away from their computers or, in the main, have chosen not to respond to your question. If the latter, for me, that says quite a lot. Some, however, have even responded positively!

I am aircrew, I joined the RAF in Jan 1969 and flew Buccs & GR1s. After 37 years I am still serving (but not flying) and, if I could turn the clock back and become 18 again, I would do it all over again. The RAF is a brilliant career and yes it has changed in those years that I have served. There are many demands on our personnel most of which are acknowledged by those at the top; unfortunately they are not our masters and do not hold the purse. Yes, we do many more deployments than we did when I was first flying and yes they do have an influence on your personal life. But, the RAF is a warfighting organisation and these deployments are everything that the British Military is designed and required for when political and diplomatic reasoning has failed. (Please, folks, do not turn this thread into a 'Whether Iraq?' on the strength of that comment).

When a young 'mate' has a dream of joining the RAF to fly as a pilot then he has a reason for doing so. Whether it be a sense of duty or a desire for an exciting life poling FJ, helos or heavies around the skies, he will undoubtedly have considered the broader issues of what the RAF is involved in today.

I distinctly recall my early days in the RAF when we still had WW2, Korea and Suez veterans amongst our aircrew. Many were junior officers who had stayed on after National Service and often you would here the bleat that it 'wasn't like this in my day'. It wasn't and it won't ever be in the future.

The RAF is a great life if you are the man/woman for it. We who serve (or have served) should, as the majority of responses on here suggest, not stand in the way of anybody's dream.

Regards

FW

PS. If you join in the next 18 months, we might even get the chance to meet! (No, I am not at OASC or OACTU).

[movadinkampa747]

Andy,

Why don't you just goto the AFCO and apply. What have you got to lose.

[priestleyre]

I have just recently discovered this site, and can't help but notice a lot of 'about to leave' or 'wish i was leaving' contributors. I am currently awaiting a date to attend OASC having passed my filter interview at the AFCO in the autumn. I have applied to join the RAF as NCA.

My main reasons for joining are that i seek a long and stable career away from the modern world of business, which i detest. Also a wish to serve Q & C and have a great time etc.
Am i to believe from what i read on here that the RAF is now run by policy makers and modernists at the MOD or is it still the great 'Royal' Air Force my grandfathers joined many years ago?

Any advice would be most welcome!

Ps. I would be applying to be an officer, but do not have the correct accademic qualifications as yet. Perhaps some advice on the likelyhood of achieving these once 'joined up' would be helpful.

Thanks

[foldingwings]

priestleyre

You have been merged!! See all the above and do not listen to the cynics!

[Pontius Navigator]

priestleyre

Plenty of good jobs as NCA. You can, as they said, get your GCSEs. Many stations do a ONE WEEK crash course leading to English. Maths may take a little longer but reflect just how much time you devoted to maths at school. Say 5 hours per week for about 40 weeks or 200 hours total.

Many of the NCA jobs need almost as many GCSEs as officer. What are you short of? If it is the full bag and you therefore have to go for the least academic NCA then your future commissioning opportunities will be slimmer.

[old developer]

folding wings

Beautifully put :ok: :ok: :ok: :O

[MightyGem]

the RAF is still the only place that you can fulfil a dream of military flying
Hmmm...so what about the Navy and the Army then?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

or the RAAF :}

We welcome pommies

[Speedy Brace]

the RAF is still the only place that you can fulfil a dream of military flying

Just before you continue to offer advice to impressionable youth who wish to join your little flying club as you call it. Take a min to contemplate....... Question... Don't you have to have servicable airframes to allow you to fulfill your "DREAM". ?
Dream land is where i think most jockies in the RAF operate, most of the time.
With the onset of LEAN and other penny pinching ideas some rodney has decided is a jolly jape. Doesn't this make the ground crew trades job all the more harder to achieve.
Yes, when you walk, you always find a servicable airframe on the line but take a sec to thank the techies who worked all night and robbed your mates ride blind just so that you can go and break it again while flying around thinking the world is wonderful.
so to close, let your future advice be...... become a techie my son, keep those create servicable so i can fulfill my dream job, cause the rate at which the techies are bailing out of the FLYING CLUB, someones got to be left to work the snags,

[vecvechookattack]

the RAF is still the only place that you can fulfil a dream of military flying

or you could join the Royal Navy......


or the Army.....


or the Royal Marines.....


To be frank though, If I wanted a Military Flying career, the last place I would go is the RAF. Just a quick browse through this site and you will find hundreds of them all moaning and graoning, all leaving (in Droves) and it seems to me, all thoroughly fed up with life in the RAF.

Meanwhile, you will find plenty of support for military flying in other services.

[Titan Locked]

Vec Vec

According to the MOD Annual Report 04-05 the only service not to have kept below their stable long term PVR rates is the RN/RM.

RN Officers - Target 2%, Actual to Mar 05 2.5%, Mar 04 2.5% and Mar 03 2.6%.
RN Ratings - Target 5%, Actual to Mar 05 6.4%, Mar 04 5/7% and Mar 03 5.3%.
Army Officers - Target 4%, Actual to Mar 05 3.9%, Mar 04 3.7% and Mar 03 3.4%.
Army Soldiers - Target 6%, Actual to Mar 05 5.7%, Mar 04 5.3% and Mar 03 5.5%.
RAF Officers - Target 2.5%, Actual to Mar 05 2.4%, Mar 04 2.1% and Mar 03 2.1%.
RAF OR - Target 4%, Actual to Mar 05 3.8%, Mar 04 3.7% and Mar 03 3.9%.

And before you ask all 3 services also lose more trained strength through reasons other than PVR (ie end of commitment / medical etc). I would therefore suggest that all 3 services are having the same 'leaving in droves' issue - its a fact of life and is not just an Air Force thing.

And, using your theory of the individuals who post on this site are representative of their service then god help the Dark Blue!

Happy New Year

TL

[priestleyre]

I do have the correct Gcse's, It is A-levels i am lacking.
I have been told by the AFCO that the RAF is short of NCA, does this make it less likely they will allow me to gain the correct qualifications to apply for a commission once i am 'in'?
Or, as i am led to believe, the RAF actively encourages its people to gain new qualifications to further their careers?

Thankyou for the helpful replies!

Also, I have read plenty of glossy careers material with lovely photo's of NCA, but is anyone here a Wsop and can offer a more personal view of what the job is like??

[vecvechookattack]

I totally concur. There you have it, at last. TY.

[insty66]

V V C

Get back under your bridge you troll! It's like listening to a scratched record (showing my age there).


My advice to anyone wanting to join the RAF is:
1, Be sure you want to.
2, If you can't fly them, mend them.
3, NEVER accept a trade with the the "promise" to remuster later.
4, From my point of view. I have been to so many places that I would never have seen, I have done so many things I wouldn't be allowed to do anywhere else!:E And I have met such a varied range of people that I'd do it ALL again tomorrow.
It can be a great life but remember it's not all flying and there is a very real chance that you will be in real danger and your commitment will be tested beyond whatever you thought possible.
Go for it.
:ok:
Good Luck

[sarmonkey]

It's another "life is great in the RN" routine from vecvec/southside/hyd3fail! I might have to start a thread entitled "Jam" and see how long it takes to be told that "jam in the RN is the best in the services, no pips or anything....."

Meanwhile, back in the land of this thread's purpose - priest, the RAF, like the other services, will offer good support for, and encouragement in, gaining educational qualifications (as mov747 says). This could take the form of providing the course, or paying for your attendance at a civvy college/OU. Be aware that this will have to fit in with operational concerns, but the fact that you'll be doing it in your own time, and for the reasons you state, will be reflected favourably in your reports.

As foldingwings says, don't listen to the cynics, and remember that all of us have our own loyalties which colour our replies.








But the light blue's still the best choice, obviously....

[vecvechookattack]

Good post by sarmonkey, although I dunno who hyd3/southside is but hey.... I do have one question though... Does the RAF flying training system incorporate a thinkg calle "Flying Start" where as youre Flying training will acrrue 1/3 of a degree?

[sarmonkey]

Yes, but we didn't give it such a spunky name. Next question.

[Titan Locked]

Vec

Its covered under the In-Service Degree Scheme for Flying & Air Traffic Controller Training and sponsored by the OU.

Aspects of Initial Officer, Pilot, Navigator (WSO in yuk speak) and Air Traffic Controller training are included in the Credit Accumulation Transfer Scheme (CATS). Further details of CATS points and the courses to which they apply can be obtained by going to http://www.learning-forces.org.uk/31-up/ou_cats.htm.

In addition CATS Points are also available to all Officers undertaking Initial Officer Training (IOT), Individual Staff Studies (ISS), Junior Officers Command Course (JOCC) & Intermediate Command and Staff Course (ICSC).

TL

[vecvechookattack]

TY .












VVHA

[Jerry Can]

priestleyre

If you are a serving airman you do not need A levels to apply for a commission. You just need the relevant GCSE's. There are plenty of opportunities for gaining further qualifications once you are in the RAF using the various learning credits available to you through the station education centre, if you are willing to put in the work in your own time. I work with a guy who has gained a degree doing this and I have used the enhanced learning credit myself.

That said, if you join as NCA just as a route to commission you may be disappointed. It is still very competitive and you will be required to serve a return of service as NCA before you even apply.

There are no shortcuts to a commission, if that is what you want then study for A levels and apply when you have them. If you want to be NCA then come on in its a great way to earn a living.

[Flatus Veteranus]

If you wannabe a fast jet pilot (all jets were "fast" in my day), you need to consider the MOD's proposition that Typhoon and the JSF may be the last manned fast jets. if you believe that cr*p you ought to hurry along to OASC; you have just about enough time to fit in a full career as a "steely" before some grunt takes over sitting down a big hole. But bear in mind that at the RAF Selection Board at Ramridge House in 1949 I had a hell of a tussle with the President (an Air Cdre Engineer) who kept on telling me that the days of manned aircraft were numbered and asking which ground branch I would accept as an alternative. He would not agree that any airborne vehicle controlled from the surface by radio frequency signals could be countered by ECM of one sort or another. It was true then and I suggest it will be true in 30 years time. Go for it if you really have the "hankering". If not, don't. You will fail and your self-esteem will suffer greatly.

[foldingwings]

Andy & priestleyre,

I knew that they wouldn't stay away for long, and they're not even wearing RAF uniforms this time!

Now listen, if you flew in an organisation that routinely dealt with boats or guns and saw aircraft as an extension of artillery (both do), what would you do on a webpage that is predominantly occupied by RAF people and somebody was asking about careers in the RAF? If you were small minded, you would attempt to upset the thread, wouldn't you?

I have flown off the deck and spent some time at sea with the Boys in Blue and let me tell you, it's bloody exciting about 10% of the time, but the rest of it you spend: in your cabin; on watch in your sailor suit; or watching the wake from the quarter deck! The Army, on the other hand, spend most of their time trying to get airborne in aircraft that aren't seen as anything much more than an additional piece of artillery and control them like they were actually guns!

Now, if you don't believe me, take a look at their websites and tell me just how much info there is about flying careers compared to other careers! Now take a look at the RAF webpages and compare that with the other 2.

I rest my case.

Believe me, there are cynics in every profession and the disenchanted are more voluble than the silent majority but if you want to fly (or service aircraft, for those of that bent) look no further than the RAF; flying and air warfighting is where its priority lies. I don't deny that you can fly in the other 2 Services but it's all the other stuff that you have to put up with that would put me off!

Happy New Year when it comes.

Foldingwings

[CashMachine]

Whatever you do, DO NOT join as an aircraft engineer!
Join as NCO aircrew or with a commision.
If you do anything else you'll be wasting your time. LEAN is ripping the heart out of the ground trades!

[SirToppamHat]

ASOP you will just end up in a hole at Boulmer and Neatishead.

Can't discount Boulmer for some years, but I think you will find Neatishead closed as a working bunker more than 18 months ago!

STH

[movadinkampa747]

Neatishead closed? Oh no that means there are even less choices for ASOP's. even more reasons not to do that job.

[CashMachine]

movadinkampa747
Why not. There are perfectly good careers to be had as a Technician.
I'll tell you - A job that should take me 30 mins to fix, actually takes me two and a half hours to do because I have to wait for the stackers (sorry, logistics personnel) to deliver a bit for me (I can't do a collect because that isn't lean) I then find out that the bit is "in transit" on LITS and I have to faff about sorting that out and then go to another computer system to find out the reference for removing/fitting it, then actually write out the job card then clear the job card on LITS. In the mean time there are another couple of jobs building up because there is no other sumpy/rigger/fairy/leckie or heavy/light on shift because those that haven't been LEANED out or taken redundacy are either on guard/on detachment/on CCS/IDT/IRT/Fitness or if they're really lucky on leave (sorry authorised absence (if you are AWOL are you absent without absence??)).
Yes, it's always been a bit like that, but in the past you've always had enough people to cope, it will only get worse as more and more people are made redundant or PVR.
I have enjoyed being in the RAF. I've met some great people and done things I would never have done otherwise but I really don't want to be in the British Defence Force or the Royal Air Corps (how few people do you need to be a corp instead of a force??).

Oh, and one more thing.
You don\'t even get paid more these days for being a techie!
Why should I put up with all the s**t and put my signature on a piece of paper that a board of enquiry wil hang me with if an aircraft I worked on crashes and still only get paid the same as a cook??

[insty66]

ATM!

First
I hate all that crap that is just poorly disguised cuts.(lean etc)
Second
At lot of what you list is our job (CCS, Fitness) but it could be better integrated into our working lives.
The RAF of today is not the one I joined (I've said that before!!) but the varied lifestyle that is doubtless still available, the whole ish! (please substitute a better word here) that you have a chance to belong to is still a very rare thing.
I stand by:
"If you can't fly them, mend them."
Where else is the job satisfaction?
MDK747
Pleased you used the smilie:ok:

[Speedy Brace]

he will just get crew transport to take him back to the mess until you get your finger out and fix the Aircraft that should have left an hour ago.................

Ty for proving the piont made earlier, there are two Royal Air Force's to consider joining, 1. There's 2. Ours...

No wonder with that sort of attitude towards the Techies did you have your jolly delayed . Lean doesn't just affect the techies , i think you'll find it also impinges on your jolly little jaunts over blighty.......


Spelling check after xmas drinks.

[movadinkampa747]

Sorry speed brace. Did you not notice the smiley after the comment, insty did. It was a joke?

[akula]

Priest,
In the current climate I would forget the nay sayer's words and get signed up as a WSOp if you are given the opportunity. In very simple terms the RAF is split in two, those who fly and those who support the flyers, so why not get the support rather than give it. As for pilot cross over I would suggest that a few years of Op flying will stand any candidate in good stead for the selection board. Good luck in whatever you decide and let us know how you get on at OASC:ok: :ok:


ALWAYS assume NEVER check

[The Rocket]

[QUOTE] Ty for proving the piont made earlier, there are two Royal Air Force's to consider joining, 1. There's 2. Ours... [QUOTE]

Yes yes Speedy Brace,

There's Ours, and then there's.............................????