Practice Auto Question ...

[RW-1]

Ok, I know what the answer is going to be, but wanted to ask anyway.

For those heli's with overhead power consoles, (power levers up top) A109, etc...

What is the procedure for a practice auto?

Does one lower collective, then just reach up and pull power, etc. ?

(Curious as to the arm movements, etc. Since coll and going for the levers are same side)

I assume one has time to do this.. .(Oh yeah, if you A109 pilots answer, head down to twistgrip's question as well, that's what prompted me to remember to post this one hehe ...)

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>

[MightyGem]

I can't move the power levers without an instructor present, so I do my autos with them forward. With an instructor he either initiates the auto by pulling one back, or I do by saying "practice engine failure, go" and he pulls them back as I lower the lever.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Question is, is that the answer you thought you were going to get??. . :)

[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: MightyGem ]</p>

[Devil 49]

Checking auto NR, I'd do it like this-. .Compute the whole mess: temp, weight, altitude, target NR;. .Climb to altitude;. .Establish auto airspeed;. .Reduce collective to bottom or NR top of green;. .One engine back, then the other to split the needles and assure accurate auto NR;. .Promptly resume powered flight! INTENTIONAL AUTOROTATIONAL LANDINGS NOT PERMITTED in any twin I've ever flown.. .Your first real auto would be pure pass/fail determined by acceptance of the grade...

[Geronimo 33]

I pose this question to Devil 49 who quotes the "book" to us about intentional autorotations in twins being an improper technique. Devil...how do you propose to conduct training to prepare pilots for those interesting situations that occasionally crop up in "twin" helicopters such as a main drive shaft failure on Bell 212/412 aircraft for instance? Do you reckon this will happen with the collective full down and at the correct autorotational airspeed, into wind, with a beautiful landing area under you with plenty of altitude to prepare the aircraft for landing?

I endorse your idea of computing the data needed to confirm that the Nr is correct during the practice autorotation but from there I fear you and I take different paths. As Twin-engine helicopter pilots we quickly become complacent with the reliability of the aircraft and its ability to remain airborne following an engine failure after we are in flight. We must remember that other failures may render us incapable of maintaining power to the rotor system such as the drive shaft failure, dual engine failure due to fuel contamination. The better we train for these odd events will greatly enhance our ability to cope with the real thing should it happen. I don't know about you, but I am the happy recipient of many hundreds of practice autorotations in multi-engine helicopters and more than a few to touchdowns from BO/BK's right the way up to the CH-47 Chinook. Remember the saying, "You do in real life what you do in training." I therefore submit that training should be done as close to real life as is safely possible. The operative word is "safely". I have read the same manuals and understand why the advice is given there. Perhaps, we should request Nick Lappos to weigh in on this and explain why manufacturers put such cautions into the flight manuals....usually it is for legal reasons and not for any mechanical or technical reasons. I also think Nick may have done his share of autorotations in multi-engine helicopters over the years....but of course having been a former Cobra pilot he probably was well experienced in doing touchdowns.

[tecpilot]

Have autorotated some twins up to touchdown a few hundred times for practice or checkrides. On the BO 105 or BK 117 "book" is no word to avoid or restrict such landings. But as any pilot know, there is no absolute riskless landing or any operation of a/c. Maintenance or replacement costs are rising up to sun on twins. In my opinion, a pilot have to rule his helo on a "sharp" autorotation up to the ground. In my practice or checkrides with the "power recovery" guys, they are all really astonished what happend on the last 30 feets. The feel for the height, flare and velocity is very important, but difficult to get on safety altitude. "It`s the last feet that count". But understand me right, it`s not necessary to "overteach" this procedure. Most twinpilots are very experienced and the safety margins are higher, than on the smaller helo`s. And at last: a touchdown AR on twins is easy comparing to R-22.

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: tecpilot ]</p>

[Draco]

The last 20 feet is always scary, particularly in a R22. My view is that in a real emergency, if you get the machine down to 10 feet with little remaining downward or forward velocity, then you are likely to survive whatever happens next.

A complete, undamaged helicopter is a bonus.

[RW-1]

MG,

It was close. Mike (my CFI) and I had figured either you had time to lower collective and then pull the levers yourself, or you would have another pilot up front who would pull them after you had lowered collective.

Have to say I'm with Geronimo and tecpilot, I do nto see where one would be inhibited to practice an auto in a twin. Train as one flies, it could happen. you may not have a dual engine failure, but be left with conditions that single engine flight is not possible.

As I have only performed one auto to touchdown so far (inadvertantly), I have to say that IMO I wasn't scared, had no time to be that, I was too busy making sure I was in position, alt, flare, etc. Training will take over when you need it, if you stay on top of your training.

I also agree with Drac that the heli is expendable, even if I botch something at the bottom, I am fairly confident that at this point in my training, that I will arrive at the bottom in such a position that while I may be injured, I won't be killed.

[ 20 February 2002: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>

[Devil 49]

Geronimo 33-That's not my idea. It's a quote from the FAA approved rotorcraft flight manuals and typical of the twins I've flown, and has the force of law in this country. Silly, isn't it?

[tecpilot]

Touchdown AR are tricky procedures absolute. The risk of helo damage is high. On this discussion we don`t have to forget the mental state of a pilot. He have to be certain to control any possible situation on a/c operations. Hoping staying alive isn`t my way. We are responsible also for all our passengers. A finished AR in 10 feets could easy end in overturning, lateral cross over, MR blades on your seat, main gearbox in cabin, broken back, burning skin and so on... Look at NTSB or other accident descriptions. There are also some descriptions on twins with a complete loss of power. Broken main drive shafts, fuel out (or out in supply tanks), contaminated fuel, bad air intake... Unfortunately crashsafety airframes, seats... coming to slowly in civ avbusiness. We have to find the right way for risk scoring and management. Flight Sim`s are a good way.

[RW-1]

Tec,

Some really look at me strangely when I give my Pax brief and get to the part of "If something should happen ...." :)

(Those that do have that Airline induced "There is nothing that can go wrong when you fly ... you fly ... you fly ...." mantra) <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Properly briefed passengers are a must in my book.