business opportunities for pilots -where?

[torquetubes1]

Hi,

I'm looking for a directory of small start-ups looking for a working-partner.

I'd like to fly and own part of the business at the same time as I find running a business satisfying.

For size, I'm interested in the small stuff: singles or light twins are fine.

Does anyone know where I can find a "worldwide" directory or company that helps locate suitable investors for small startups?

I'm not adverse to start-ups outside of western countries.

Thanks in advance

[TooLowTerrain]

Hope you dont mind me asking but,

What sort of business are you looking at?

I myself am looking into Air taxi.

I understand that there is a large number of companies offering air taxi but seem to business and aviation world for marketing.

I think the general population could be a good resource for example.

Getting from Bristol to Gatwick by coach takes a minimum of 3 and 1/2 hours

No direct train change at reading cost loads.

Car minimum 2 hours plus fuel and 100 quid parking.

Add all this cost and time plus 2 hours booking in

Gatwick alone handles more holiday flights than other airports around the country

I also looked at

A beech turboprop single

29 gallons an hour. 35mins to gatwick.

I put this out for opinion only.

[TooLowTerrain]

I have given that some thought...

Is there not a small GA field somewhere near to Gatwick...

Filton is a pretty good starting point as i have been informed that the only cause of delays is the occassional closure of the runway for engine testing.

[Daifly]

Which spends a fair amount of its time waterlogged...

And then you've got the 20/30 minute journey from Redhill to Gatwick by road.

I really like the fact that you're looking at new markets, but nobody will spend £300 to get from Bristol to Gatwick (which is about average for a small commuter-type ticket on that length of route - you just haven't got the capacity to offer the EasyJet type fares and cover your costs). Services from Cardiff to London have invariably failed - the M4 is just too good competition for the small time saving and the large cost outlay.

Bristol and the Westcountry are certainly starting to pick up lots more aviation business, so you're in the right area for sure, but I'd just advise against London. (There was also an Exeter-Stansted service using a Navajo which lasted for about a month too).

[TooLowTerrain]

Gatwick was mentioned as an example, my idea is an on demand taxi service to anywhere.

According to market research this industry is set to rise and has done since 9/11.

Transporting three people to Gatwick from Bristol in the same time it would take me from my house to lulsgate at a cost of 3 three hundred pounds in my opinion is a bargin.

I travel to Pafos with my wife and children 3 to 4 times a year. I use Gatwick as oppose to Lulsgate due to the savings which on my last trip was 6 hundred pounds.

Whilst at Gatwick I noticed that there were alot of Northern accents so, surely a direct flight would save many people time and money.

If there was a service operating in my area I would use it.

Also I appreciate Gatwick itself is very busy but, does anyone know how friendly they are towards light aircraft and what sort of cost would be involved in landing and off loading passengers.

[Daifly]

It's a great idea, the only thing I would caution against is believing Market Research which has shown the market to pick up.

Market Research told us all that the industry would rocket in the months following 9/11 - it did in the States, but in Europe it maintained the standard slow rise it had done up til then, in fact some of the more regular industrial business dropped off.

It's been done to the death on here before, but the industry has, by design in some ways, become a very expensive one to break into. A one man band with a Piper Seneca now has to have effectively the same basic set up as an operator with 20 aircraft - Safety, Quality, Auditing etc etc. Even entry level operators on Navajos and King Airs are finding business more and more of a struggle to get these days - with the King Air in particular the prices are so similar to entry level jets, such as the Citation Bravo, that the majority will choose the jet. That's not to say that there aren't very successful King Air operators out there - two in the Bristol area that I can think of - it's just that the infrastructure surrounding any operation makes costs so high.

You can't legally buy yourself a Seneca and then start advertising flights to anywhere without an AOC. Well, you can, but God help you when the CAA catch you (and they will!) - then think of things like luggage. You used the example of going on holiday with your kids. So, four passengers and their two week holiday suitcases on something like a Seneca? It's not the most practical proposition.

Whilst I too agree that £300 to go from Bristol to Gatwick to me too is a bargain, to the vast majority it won't be - even if they say "Yeah, cracking idea" when you first mention it. Sadly, everyone wants everything for nothing these days - conceptually everyone expects light aircraft to be cheap compared to airliners - they're smaller, it figures! We know that's not really the case at all. Per passenger seat it's substantially higher.

In reality consider Bristol to Gatwick; you mention that getting to Gatwick in the time it takes you to go to Lulsgate appeals; well, the flight's only 45 minutes but there's still a lot of hold ups on the way. If you live 20 minutes from Bristol - leave home 09:40, arrive 10:00, load the bags(!) and the pax and take off at 10:15. 45 minutes to Redhill - 11:00. Leave Redhill by car, 11:10. 20 minute drive to Gatwick, 11:30. That's 1 hour 50 from door to door. Drive 09:40 departure, 133 miles, that's 2 hours and 30 minutes driving - saves you about 40 minutes. You've already said you travel to Gatwick as it saves you £600. So would you then spend that £600 just to save yourself 40 minutes? Everyone, sadly, works on the same concept - no, of course not, you'd save that money. Otherwise you'd just fly from Lulsgate to begin with. But for Market Research everyone will say that they will use it. You can justify it from a business case, if your time is that valuable, but when it's leisure travel it's very difficult to justify. And for business cases, the majority of a small minority of people who can justify it will be looking for twin turboprops at minimum.

Don't believe me? Well, I've been doing this for a while now, have run scheduled services and seen them fail on routes where the demand should, theoretically, outstrip supply. My best advice to you - go up to Lulsgate and see Centreline Air Charter - ask them why they aren't already offering the service!

To operate into Gatwick you need to be a CPL holder minimum; I don't think they accept singles. As a non-scheduled operation you have to get a slot from the daily allocation to GA which will be at a time to suit them, not you. Costs - dread to think - but has got to be in the £150-£200 + VAT a landing area for a Seneca I'd have thought. Though in peak times it may be even more expensive.

I'm not trying to p*ss on your fire, just trying to get you to understand that this has been a "unique" idea for hundreds before you and you need to go into it with your eyes wide open!

[TooLowTerrain]

I thank you for your advice,

At this stage it is only an idea. I do need people like yourself who I can bounce ideas off.

I appreciate that london is not the best destination however, we all know the problems with the railways and early morning from bristol to london cost me £80.00

Would a service from Bristol to Elstree areodrome be a viable service for professional commutors. Using equipment such as a king Air.

I have given this idea a great deal of thought and work on the basis - would i use this service.

I am a believer in no matter what business you start it will work with maximum input.

Maybe im one of these head in the cloud types.

I have in the past along with another person formed a company which belonged to a very cut throat industry, After alot of longs days and hard work it really did take off.
Unfortunatly the person I went in with had more money than both sense and commitment and like an idiot I walked out handing back my shares in the company as we were LTD.

Aviation is an interest of mine, i am no expert in this area but, like others i'm sure, would like to start up in this area.

Again thank you for your response. :ok:

[Daifly]

I'll start by introducing you to the best bit of advice you'll ever hear about aviation: "If you want to make a million in aviation, start with 10"!

The only service that would be slightly more attractive than most is something Central Bristol to Central London - anything else and you just introduce extra journey time. Elstree for instance, if the traffic's bad (which it is in a morning) could easily be 90 minutes to get into London by car or an hour by train - so you've lost the key selling point you've got - time saving. For something like that to work you'd have to fill 7 seats on a King Air at at least £200 per seat. And that's only to cover the operational costs. When you then consider the most people you can carry is 8 or 9, you can see that you've still got your own overheads to pay - it's not a good money generating scheme!

The "would I use the service?" question isn't really a great one to use, you need to be far, far more cautious than that. Like I said before, if someone asks me if I'd use that service, yes, of course. But then when it came to the crunch, would I justify that expense to get me to somewhere close to where I want to go, but not exactly, then no, I wouldn't. I'd be surprised if the majority didn't think exactly the same.

With aviation everything's 110% effort - it's one of those businesses where if you don't put the effort in you'll miss the opportunities and you'll drop the ball - you only need two days of low loads to have written off your previous months' profits.

You don't come across too much as a head in the clouds type, but you do come across as someone with limited exposure to the pitfalls of aircraft operation! The moment you get into it you see how utterly expensive it is!

But you're right to ask people's advice before going and shelling out however many £XXX's on an aircraft!

[Phil Brockwell]

I have an even better idea, we already offer on demand charters from Lulsgate, PA34's, Kingairs ( and a rumoured jet coming this year) why not simply turn up at my offce with a really big fat cheque book and buy us out.

Phil
Should I book my ticket to Barbados yet?

[RobertL]

At the smaller end of the business if you do not have a regular contract to fly (traffic eye, on demand medevac, photo survey) or also use the aircraft for training, there does not seem to be much real business opportunity. I own an Aztec and was hoping to find a business opportunity for it in the SE of the UK but do not see much of a chance. There are a lot of Navajos out there on on-demand charter which do not seem to fly that much.

Further west (Cornwall? West Wales?) given the rise of second homes and the mission advantage there may be a niche but very much as a lifestyle job. Up north there seem to be quite a few succesful operations dedicated to piston air charter.

Interesting to understand what the break even point in terms of hours would be - I would guess at least 600 hours per annum per aircraft to pay crew and also make some return on the investment, with possibly three aircraft to absorb the business central costs of office, marketing, regulation, etc

[Phil Brockwell]

Lough,

You are qute correct regarding the fact that 3 aircraft is needed to make profit, but I am perplexed by your perception of Demographics in our Industry. We have been in the South West for nearly 20 years and hardly touch the second home market. We now have a base in the South East and it is a booming place for us, to the extent that we are hoping to expand that base significantly over the next year.

Off the top of my head I can think of 17 airports that are catered for by light twin AOC operators, only 5 of these are further North than the midlands. (yes I am sure I've missed a couple.)

I can't imagine anyone could make any money from a JAA AOC with one light piston twin, those days disapeared with CAP 360 i'm afraid.

[haughtney1]

Slight thread divergence here.....with a question for Phil



Phil what are your thoughts on the V Light Jet, and how its going to impact your present business model?

Any plans to jump onto the market..assuming here of course you havent already:ok:

cheers H

[RobertL]

Phil
I made a distinction for your operation as you seem to be catering for the turbine market and therefore are well established and operating from an important city centre. i.e. a lot of goodwill built up.
Excellent to hear the business is thriving!

[Phil Brockwell]

Damn,

I just wrote a 400 word reply and PPrune had logged me out, my one fingered typing took so long I had to re-log in. So this is the short version.

To me VLJ = Mustang and Eclipse,

Cessna make very good Bizjets and have done so for years. Raeburn has made 4, and thinks he can half the cost and produce many times more than Cessna. Call me a skeptic, but IMHO they have a less than 20% chance of pulling it off.

So VLJ=Mustang. Good aircraft for single pilot owner operator air taxi work. Put 2 crew on it and all the reserves required for Public Transport and it will need a tech stop between Stansted and Luton.

I think there is a market for them in the Privately owned sector and some of these will get a few bits of work on Public transport, but I think they will be too limited to take much utilisation because of their operational limitations. If JAA will let them operate public transport single crew this will make a huge difference, but only if the pre-perceptions of the pax are ok with flying single pilot.

So.....in conclusion...I'm not quite sure, but having purchased a Caravan 1 because the Cessna salesman told me they would be approved for Single Engine IMC within a month (4 years ago) I think I will let someone else test the market with these ones, I think they are more competition to the TBM-700, the BE-90 and the Seneca-V than any Public Transport aircraft.

[haughtney1]

Just got back from the gym..ooh the life of a pilot:rolleyes:

It amazes me how slow the JAA(soon to be EASA) have been in addressing this VLjet issue. The whole point of the concept is based apon a little forward thinking, specific requirements, and most importantly pilot training. As Phil says about the single engine turbine issue (another befuddled muddled and thoroughly cocked up process) this seems to be another wait and see, all the while whilst larger airports become congested hubs..a few regional airports grow..and the rest stagnate for what is generally accepted as no good reason.

Yet again the big central office continue stifiling potential opportunities:hmm:

Good on you Phil for getting your business thriving..I hope it continues to go well.:ok: