Jet vs Prop hours

[sidestickhumper]

Please read this conversation from bottom to top.

Happened this week, happens to thousands of applicants every day, what do you think? Could some jet jockeys help to explain one for all times why jet is the thing you need?


Hi XXXX

Thank you for your quick answers. I know, but, I will never have these Jet hours if nobody gives me the chance to make the first one, see what I mean?

It's kind of frustrating; I am gaining thousands of hours experience in a very demanding environment (commuter traffic) with bad weather, heavy workload, short ground times, small unequipped Airports and dense airspace, but all that counts is Jet? I know it's not your mistake and not your choice, but I had to say it.

Thank you anyway for your replies

Sincerely

XXX

Von: XXXXX[mailto:XXXXXXXXXX]
RE: RE.: RE: Application with XXXXXXAirlines

Hi XXX,

To be considered as a First Officer, we require 3000 hours to include 1500 on a commercial jet.

Regards,
XXXX


-----Original Message-----
From: XXXX[mailto:XXXXXXX]
Sent: XXXXXXXXX
To: XXXXXX
Subject: Antw.: RE: Application with XXXXXXXXAirlines


Hi XXXXX

are these requirerments also for F/O? Of course I would apply primary as F/O for the wide bodies as it is clear, that I cannot expect a direct entry as captain.

May I ask you to review my application in relation to my request to apply as F/O? Thank you very much in advance

Sincerely yours

XXXXXX


Dear XXX,

Thank you for faxing through your Hour Sheet.

Having reviewed your paperwork, you do not appear to have the minimum hours as required by XXXXto be considered as a pilot at this time. I see you have about 6800 Jetprop hours but we require a total of 4500 hours to include 2000 PIC on a commercial jet with a MTOW in excess of 45,000kgs, therefore, we are unable to proceed with your application.

I would like to Thank you for your interest in XXXXX
Yours sincerely,

XXXX

[Scoob]

I guess it is because they get enough applicants who have jet time and that probably reduces their training costs. If they didn't get anyone with jet time they would lower their requirements. Some companys don't require jet time and that is probably because they don't get many people with jet time writing to them as they could get a better job such as the one you are probably talking about.

[ACP]

Hi there,

I received almost the same answers from airlines. The difference is that I am a low-timer with the A320 type rating. When I only had a CPL/IR, I got no response. Then I became qualified on the A320, I got responses with one question: ''how many hours on type do you have?''. One year later and still no job, I decided to pay those 300 hrs on type required. Then I got the job flying the A320 and now paid for flying.
It's amazing to see that the flight time requirements disappear when you give some $$$.

[hazehoe]

The difference is that sidestickhumper put in the hard work and poeple like you who only ask the question: VISA or MASTERCARD are making it even more difficult to move up for him. How does it feel to be a paying passenger in the right seat for 300 hrs?

unfortunately they don,t have a deal(yet) where you can buy 500hrs on a A380 so you can skip the little A320, why would you fly that after you are fully qualified with a F ATPL ?

It,s the same old discussion, to much poeple willing to pay there way in at any cost.

Cheers,you are doing this industry a great service
:yuk:

[YYZ_Instructor]

Well said HAZEHOE!!!!

I think maybe next year in 2006 CTC might begin a program for 0 hours to A380 Type Rating +500 hours on type for only £300,000. That's if you get passed there initial screening and you have a black American Express card with no limit on it...LOL

:ok: :confused: :ok: :confused: :ok:

[sidestickhumper]

this heals my wounded soul a bit:{

Just for your information, I'm not flying kinda Piper or so, it's a Saab 2000, high performance, full glass cockpit aircraft. But, it has some strange long things turning around the engines where the REAL aircrafts have just a big black hole.

Of course it's different to fly a jet, descend planning, swept wing, kynetic energy, but, put a high hour Jet Jockey on a Turboprop-Sim and give him a unfeathered engine failure shortly after V1 (you prop guys know what I'm talking about). I'm pretty sure, after he finds himself in an upside down frozen Sim-Position, he makes the same stupid face like I would do sitting in a 747 ******* up my first landing.

ITS JUST A MATTER OF HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET TRAINED ON IT. It's not rocketsience, isn't it?

[judge11]

There has to be a filter for the applications although in the current market I'm surprised that some airlines can be dogmatic. Flying jets is no more difficult than turbos (in fact there is more to have to think about with the latter), they're just different, that's all.

[Willows]

You've answered your own question really, have you not? :confused:

You'll move on to better things with time. For now, just be grateful you're sitting up front.

:ok:

[sidestickhumper]

@ Willows

of course I'm happy to be a jockey but, after a few years you start to realise that your former hobby becomes a profession, in time you build up a family, get children and suddenly you understand that you have to make a living out of your dream.

Here's where the reality differs from imagination. All the young guys who pay a fortune to get a direct line to A320 or A340 or even bigger AC just skip the way called "gaining experience" and the worst thing is, that Airlines support that kind of philosophy just by counting beans. I allways had the oppinion that experience is the capital of a company, especially for Airlines. But we have to change our oppinions: Older guys are not to cheat as easy as the rookies, they are more expensive, more demanding and more direct. So get rid of them, the AC is not asking for your experience.

Until, yes, until in the future there will be a fatal accident and some TSB will find out that the reason is a lack of company internal philosophy of a healthy mixture of senior staff, supporting younger, safety comes from top downwards not the otherway around.

My problem is, that where the jets are there's the money, or at least the better net result, more and more. And "old fashion guys" getting blocked and overtaken by young chaps with a big wallet or a rich daddy. That's what I'm angry about

Side

[suzie]

Sidestickhumper, the Saab 2000 is a bit of a rarity. Do you think that this may be counting against you in the paper sifting process compared to say, a few thousand hours on a Q400 ? I'm not too familiar with the type but am led to believe that the saab is up there with the Airbus in terms of bells and whistles ??

[Shagtastic]

'CTC initial screening' ..

1. how rich is your Daddy?
2. just ignore me when you see us drinking Moet at the 19th hole
3. ever been bullied before?
4. write 'Thank You' a 1000 times.

[sidestickhumper]

what amazes me is that there's still no satisfying answer to my question. Seems that there's no...

[The Real Slim Shady]

In some cases the requirement for time is set by the insurance company who cover the hulls. There is very little one can do about that, particularly if the airline is relatively new.

On the other hand, it may be that some paper pusher has simply come up with an arbitrary cut off.

In either case, there isn't a great deal that you can do about it. Their bat and ball: at the moment!!! Things always change.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Sidestick - some words of support hopefully!

The saab 2000 expeience is great and most definitely NOT standing in your way BUT you are suffering from Jet snobbery. All the jet operators seem to think they are superior in some way to TP operators and to be frank this is BS. You are quite correct in yr assessment of Jet Jox as opposed to TP ones and throw most in the sim SE and they would poop the panties alright. The transition to JET requires only that you plan and look ahead earlier.......

Give Ryanair a ring and I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms albeit as an FO. Otherwise just apply for every new Jet operator that comes along - that was how I got my break (disproving the theory that it is an insurance or AOC requirement). :ok:

[skywaytoheaven]

suzie, not sure where your coming from with that - saab 2000 and Q400 are both high performance EFIS turboprops, and they are not employing you to fly a Q400/2000, by flying either you have gained simular experience that will give you a strong bridge to a jet.

[planemad_bk]

g'day guys!

Sidestickthumper, I don't mean to hijack your thread, mate. I have a question: How many jet operators in the UK or even Europe for that matter don't require you to have a type rating, or in other words don't require you to have paid for an endorsement?

[sidestickhumper]

Wing Commander Fowler, just sent you a PM

@skywaytoheaven

That's what I tought too, but obviously thats against the industry's way to see it. They still have too much Jet guys around, let's wait some month tough

[skywaytoheaven]

Not sure where your from but in the UK you would have no problem getting a jet job with those hours, non at all. (unless your very very old)

[Dixons Cider]

I hear where you are coming from sidestickdude. I understand the frustration of your situation - been there too, and like you also, was not willing to buy a type rating. Good on you.

I really do think that the jet hours requirement thing is a bit of a hang over from days gone by, whereby the jet requirement was a means of reducing the pile of apps that some boffin has to wade through. Todays modern and heavy(ish) fast(ish) T/props do lend themselves more to modern airline ops than the likes of HS748's and F 27's of a few years back.

To be fair, some operators are now willing to consider what they call 'heavy' turbo prop time, usually standardised at 20 tonne, although not really sure what type that typifies. Cathay Freight for example ie command on heavy T/prop. Others are starting to realise that by considering jet experience only, they are ignoring a large slice of whats on the market.

I know, it seems mindless, but to consider a young buck that has bought his way into the right seat and accumulated the princely sum of 1500 hours or so of watching the FMC/FMGS do its magic, is somehow going to be a better proposition than the guy that has earned his seat and bashed around for the last 5/6/7000 hours, alot of it in command, carrying 50 or 70 pax in the same piece of airspace....blah blah blah

sidestickthumper - don't mean you patronise you, and I'm sure you hear it all the time, but a lot of boys and girls have been in your situation, and it always seems bleak, but someday, it will change for you. Just keep all options open and consider everything. You will more than likely have to go back to the right seat but that is the joy of this marvellous industry is it not! By the way, are you prepared to go offshore?

Took me 7000ish hours. In retrospect, a bit of an anti climax too...Hang in there.

[sidestickhumper]

Dixons Cider

thanx for your answer, I'm MOOOORE than ready to go offshore. I know that time is playing on my side and the situation is also not that bad (I have a job, payment is good) but, as Suzie stated, the 2000 is kinda exotic A/C and in time the companies are getting rid of this types. At the momen, you could fly TP day and night all carriers are loking for Pilots, especially rated and experienced.

No, I'm not too old, I'm 37 and right side was allways clear and no problem...

tried RYR 2 times EZY 5 times, no answer at all..

[Megaton]

BA have taken a fair number of ex-FlyBE Dash pilots of both older and younger persuasions so I don't think it's fair to say there is prejudice. Perhaps, as I think someone commented earlier, when recruitment is low jet hrs will be a first filter but times appear to be good at the moment.

[Ignition Override]

Is a single five-hour leg, using only the "automatics", as it is called over there, more valuable experience to your next Chief Pilot/Fleet Training Captain, than five short legs in an old aircraft doing LOC and ILS approaches in gusty crosswinds?

How do the "automatics" make somebody a better pilot?:hmm:

[Ingwe]

Whilst I agree with your statements on breaking into the jet jobs and how hard it is I would just like to say that I think you might find that there's more to a jet jock than you're giving him credit for. Have flown both turbo props (DHC-5 Buffalo, MAUW 21000kg's) and heavy jet and I think you'll struggle more with the transition from prop to jet then from jet back to prop. ALL the people I work with have come through the hard way and worked through the mill to get where they are! That doesn't mean we liked it but we did it. Got no time for people who've bought there way into there jobs or companies that employ them. I'm a firm believer that you keep applying the job will come. Good luck and Merry Christmas!!

[sidestickhumper]

@ Ignition Override

I see what you mean, IO, but, the S2000 is systemwise probaly quiet similar to an Airbus, or more like the Boeing philosophy. We do exactly the same operation and use the same equipment like the jets, i.e fully integrated FMC with augmented fuel management, lateral and vertical automatic path-profiles, speed management, FADEC, Flex T/O etc. We don't have a A/T, ok (VEEEEEERY difficult to manage an A/T) and we are not CAT III certified (also VEEEEEERY difficult to monitor the aircraft landing automatically)

INGWE:

It's just the weight whats BEHIND the cockpit door that differs.
So WHAT is the big thing behind? Of course there's more to fly a Jet than just that, but it's also more behind a flying a Prop than just handling a V1 cut. Do you think captaincy is only related to flying skills? These times are over, thank god. It's resource management, situation awareness, communication skills, system knowledge, thinking ahead and EXPERIENCE, allways EXPERIENCE.

Your statement about the transition from TP to Jet or v.v. is, with all my respect, wrong. By coincidence I am also a Line Trainer and in the past we had 5 guys coming from the MD80's series and the DC10. We had to terminate training with two of them, because they were not able to adapt quick enough to the integrated glass cockpit or "EFIS" philosophy. Another problem was handling the "small" high performance aircraft in and out of CAT C airports like LCY, ELB etc. Flying TP is not only gliding down a 3 degree path until touchdown, it's hot, high and short rwy operation, it's EFCOP handling, visual and non precision procedures.

All I want to say is, that it is DIFFERENT, ok, but if somebody shows you how to do it, its doable, isn't it? The magic word is called Typerating right?

[Carnage Matey!]

Whats the big thing behind? Speed and weight for a start. Multiply the two to get momentum. A jet is not a prop and if you don't manage the energy early there's no way to get rid of it later, especially if you're in a lightish jet with thermal anti ice causing a high idle setting above your normal approach idle. The big jets operate at a whole new level of aerodynamic performance too. A 744 at max weight will leave you about 10-15 knots of airspeed to fly in whilst cleaning up in an aircraft that wallows and is highly G sensitive. Yank the controls and watch the barbers pole rise like a shot - low speed buffet is not a nice place to be on one of those things.

I think you are confusing the issue with your reference to the MD80/DC10 convertees. Struggling to convert to an EFIS environment has nothing to do with the ability to fly a jet or a prop. There are plenty of people who've struggled with converting from a 737-200 to an A320 as well, doesn't mean they can't fly. You'll find you also get plenty of non-precision approaches in the jets as well, into some surprising places like FRA and JFK or DME. Trying to pole a heavy jet into one of these places whilst contending some pretty shocking ATC, some of the worlds busiest airspace and interesting Russian altimetry is rather more demanding than you might imagine and requires a higher degree of accuracy than on a light aircraft because if you're tracking at the 5 degree limit of the NDB you won't be able to pole it over to the runway when you go visual.

[sidestickhumper]

Ok, ehhhm, great, thanks..

What do you want to say with your statement? Did you learned it by yourself or did somebody showed you how to do that? I guess you also made a TR on the type you are flying on or are you a natural born Pilot? Great, you made it, you learned it, congratulation!! Sorry, I don't want to be sarcastic.

Do you want to warn us TP-jocks not to try to touch a heavy Jet? Or do you even suggest that experience in handling a TP is contraproductive in relation to change to a jet? If yes, we are probably coming closer to my question at the beginning of my thread.

Regarding your answer to the convertees MD80/ DC10, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN, it has nothing to do with flying skills, we are talking about the same thing, mate

No, serious, I say it again: IT IS DIFFERENT TO FLY TP THAN JETS, i fully agree, but it's a question of LEARNING TO DO. Nobody can expect to change from a S2000 captain position into a 747 Captain operation. Of course you have to learn it first and going up the step by starting as a F/O again, that's why it has to be lke that...

So, still not satisfying for me, sorry. Hey, it's money we are talking about, not speed times weight=momentum. Is a 20 year old low hours chap with a self sponsored TR on the 747 more qualified to handle "momentum" than a guy with 6500 hours on a TP? Obviously he is, I just want to know why.

I have a guess, it's MONEY, please tell me I'm wrong, because if I'm right, we are all going the wrong way, buddy...

[Empty Cruise]

Sidestickhumper,

It's got nothing to do with 200 vs. 6500 hrs. - he will not need 6500 hrs for the job he's being hired to do. A 200 hr. guy is on the lower limit of the band (and a lot of them prefer - say - 1500 hrs). But give him 1500 hrs., just for general experience & getting used to the whole spatial orientation thingy, and he/she will be allright.

So our 6500 hrs guy is - believe it or not - overqualified. Not good for command gradient issues, and might take more of an "un-learning curve" than a learning curve to do. Since the latter is always steeper than the former (for most people), it really is a no-brainer from the training & fltops department point of view.

That being said, I recently transitioned from TPs to jets (ok, only a 73, but still :} ) and I must say - it's more than doable. Fair 'nuff, you need to learn to fly a different set of numbers, but I refuse to believe that people cannot adapt to flying a 3 deg. + 10 NM rather than 3 deg. profile. The command qualities needed are not that much different, crew's a bit larger, company pressures grow, and passenger behaviour turns for the worse. OK, so you have to grow an extra layer of leather and be more ready to show the company and punters that this crew is not the one they want to take on at this particular time in their lives.

I take it you have a lot of TP experience as captain - well, if interested, drop me a PM. You never know...

Empty :)

[Ingwe]

I'll keep this quick. (I hope i'm not rude).

Flown props into 600m hot and high (Sudan/Kenya/SADC region at max landing) and heavy jets non-precission in bad weather, give me the prop any day. We're not arguing about the nature of the job and who's better we're arguing over what the companies want (and most likely the insurance!). We have to accept it and adapt. Like it or not. Ask yourself why am I not getting the interviews? Are you over qualified as EP sujests? Don't like it but we have to survive.

[sidestickhumper]

Hi Empty

thanks for your honest and direct answer, I think, this comes as close to my question as it gets.

Just sent you a PM

@Ingwe

what do you mean by survive? You? Me? The company? The self sponsored TR guys? Please specify...

Cheers

Side

[Ingwe]

Survive, as in keep on living, do what ever needs to be done to pay the bills. Seems to me that people are more interested in what they fly and not in the flying and enjoying the job. Think you've got me wrong I'm not advocating buying a rating I'm saying the jobs are there you have to keep looking.

[klink]

If you see your fortune lies in the jet environment, then pay as well. Its a fairly easy calculation to see the return of investment. If you are not willing to pay, then there's plenty of guys who will.
Perhaps you could have made a similar step 5 years ago, but never thought your career would end up being like this. So here you are, with all your hours which mean nothing anymore as soon as they go over 1500. Its sad, but you missed the boat a couple years back to transition and only improve the situation. Now you'll have to take a step back, eat some dirt to join the fast track.
But I see your problem and there's no way to end up better at this stage then any boy or girl who just started flying the props 3 years ago.
Good luck.

[sidestickhumper]

@ klink

altough I don't like your tone it seems that I have to bitterly agree with you.

But I will not, I repeat, NOT pay for my rating. I'm ready to enter a bond, also other payback configuration as I'm sure there are opportunities or they will come. My plans are to try 2006/7 and, if no success, fading out step by step...