Race to the Bottom PART II [Archive]

longjohn

13th Dec 2005, 07:42

Will Jetstar pilots set a new record low in the race to the bottom?

It would appear that Jetstar pilots are closing on a settlement which, if agreed by management will reap the lowest paid widebody International pay rates in the Western World. In fact, I dare say many third world countries would offer more.

WHY? I have no idea.

For job security?...
For advancement?...
Perhaps to shove it up Qantas pilots? (and catch DJ in the net too)....

Only 5 years ago when you joined an airline flying jets there were certain expectations you had in your career..

An income in the top 2-5% of Salaried workers
Job security.
Roster stability.
Bidding rights.
More than 8-9 days off per month.
Company provided training.
Seniority.
a decent award
and...............

RESPECT.

Now it appears that has all been thrown on the altar in favour of god only knows what.

Why don't / can't Australian pilots look beyond the next 12 months?

If (when) Jetstar management capitulate (sic.) to the ludicrous claims of the IPG, the result will:

- Be the lowest rate of widebody pay in the Asia Pacific region (yes, even lower than Garuda)

- Create pressure on not only QF but VIRGIN BLUE INTERNATIONAL pilots as well.

- Have little real effect on Jetstar Captains pay.

So, questions for the Impulse pilots:

Given that you are prepared to further denegrate the position of Airline Pilots in Australia;

- Are you aware of the consequences of your actions?

- Are you really that desperate?

- Have you thought of the future?

- Have you asked Trevor, Alan and co. if they are being paid the lowest executive renumeration in the Western world for Airline Executives?

- Do you like putting money in Alan, Geoff and Trevors pockets?

- Are you proud of your auspicious positions?

Our forebears were able to live fruitfully and comfortably as airline pilots, they could buy houses in nice suburbs, purchase nice cars, send their children to good schools. They had decent rosters, company provided training and enjoyed respect in the community, from management and other pilots at large. They retired into a comfortable lifestyle befitting a professional who worked hard for a career.

Future LCC (and some current) airline pilots in Australia can look forward to living in the burbs at best, or renting with all the other wannabee's, driving a falcon or second hand pretender and sending their kids to the local high. They will have company dictated rosters (fun at 55 when you miss Christmas yet again), respect from the local garbo, disrespect from management, contempt from their peers and need to work to 65 just to retire into a crappy 3 bedroom fibro somewhere in bogansville.

But, Geoff will be long dead whilst his children live off your generosity, the shareholders will still see a crap share price and Alan, probably CEO of QF will be laughing himself stupid with every sip of Vintage Krug (it's a very expensive Champagne) at your expense.

Alternatively, like Southern Australia and Jetconnect pilots you will have outlived your usefulness and be relegated to the scrapheap whilst a new breed of hungry young pilots bids to relearn the lessons of the past at your expense. Who knows, maybe DJ Skywest or NJS pilots will find themselves in the same position as Ansett a few years ago and will bid for your work out of necessity.......

Have a real hard think about it boys and girls, if your Union agrees to the terms on offer you will be held in the highest level of contempt by not only QF pilots, but more importantly by your LCC peers whose futures you will also have blackened.

Indeed, the race to the bottom has found a new low.

126.7

13th Dec 2005, 07:47

I'm Hearin Ya Brother!:ouch:

Wanikiba_pilot

13th Dec 2005, 08:55

May I add...

Being an airline pilot is not just about the high salaries and prestige cars, or the private schools in the flashy suburbs etc. Not all pilots live to that extraordinary level. Hopefully many have learned the lessons of a lot of former Ansett pilots, save your money and be wary with your spending habits. There is no need to live such an extravagant lifestyle. You may just get caught out, no job, no savings. Remember Ansett.

The pay we need to demand needs to reflect the fact that the airline industry is a boom or bust industry, and really all pilots should be demanding a decent wage to cover costs for a moderate comfortable lifestyle, with the ability to put a chunk away for 'the day after.'

The race to the bottom will perpetuate the cycle of working poor, as seen in more and more western countries, the US probably being the biggest perpetrator of all. This is where the importance of a solid single (unionised) workforce can really be advantageous; Such as the combining of experience, fresh ideas, and one single, powerful voice.

As much as naive pilots want to help themselves to fast commands in the hope of securing their careers. There is the risk that they will sell themselves (and their coworkers) short.
We start out young, willing to work for peanuts because it is just one person we need to take care of. Before we know it we have a spouse and 2.1 kids to feed and clothe, yet we sold ourselves short years ago. Think about the future. Sustainable income commensurate with experience and position in the company, and an opportunity to save in case that dreaded day comes...hopefully it never will. It is a sad day when an airline goes under.

I applaud the Jetstar guys and gals sticking together and not accepting the initial round of conditions at Jetstar Int. I hope they stick to their guns and have the courage to hold out for what they need.

WP

Ndicho Moja

13th Dec 2005, 09:08

If you have any doubts and know any folk in either J*s, ask them how hard they work and what they can offer for the next round of negotiations. If you are 'flat out' now, what is there to give next time?

Remember, J*Asia has QF JFO/SO's, with 500hrs total, working full months for basic pay...not incentive/fly pay.
Word is that they also have 'freebie' F/Os on the way from Europe whose pay is subsidised by the A320 training school that has provided their endorsement.

It is your life/lofe style; take ownership and enjoy the rewards.

Good luck.

Capt Fathom

13th Dec 2005, 09:20

Under the prevailing conditions, if they don't run themselves into the ground, it's only a matter of time before a aeroplane gets run into the ground! :(

Pass-A-Frozo

13th Dec 2005, 10:18

I really don't see a problem with it if they are happy to work for that wage.

It's how a democratic non-socialist country works!

longjohn

13th Dec 2005, 10:34

If I may beg your indulgence in an analogy.

I often think of certain pilots being akin to a female tragedy.

Our pretty young maiden becomes so besotted with her Handsome and strapping suitor that she opens her virginity to him in the name of love and the hope of a future. Unfortunately she wakes in the morning to discover that he is long gone, however she is not allowed to forget their carnal activities as friends and strangers alike learn of her indiscretion, passing disdainful looks in the street.

Heartbroken and empty she seeks the company of others in a vain attempt to achieve happiness. However, blow by blow she is used and abused.

Before too long our erstwhile maiden is yet again approached by her strapping suitor. Naively she allows him once more have his way, however this time what little respect for her he had has vanished and he seeks to satisfy himself in the most wicked and depraved manner, it is no longer for pleasure but the challenge of how desperate he can make her appear. Again he abandons her in the morning, slinking off to brag to all and sundry of his prowess.

Soon she becomes the prey of all the SLOP's (Short Little Overweight Pricks), desperate to find happiness and respect, even they sense her weakness.

Eventually, brokenhearten and empty she finds herself alone. Viewed as a whore she is reduced to prostitution simply to fill her belly. Her old friends have long since broken their ties with her, fearful that somehow her reputation is contageous, her new friends to her bemusement seem resigned to their plight in an almost encouraging manner.

Watching an attractive woman cross the street with her husband and two children, laughing and smiling as they go, she wonders where she went wrong?

Apologies to our female bretheren, however it is far easier for me to write this from a male persective, no doubt the sexes are interchangeable, either way the message is clear.

Binoculars

13th Dec 2005, 10:41

Not going to make myself any friends here for this post, but for once I agree with P-A-F.

Somehow, airline pilots historically have circumvented the theory of supply and demand. Now that the airlines have decided they will bluff the pilots by invoking that theory, those who have gained so much from the status quo are naturally bitching. I don't blame them; it's only a matter of time before my occupation goes the same way. I think it's called the new world order.

It's not a nice thought to come to grips with, but as long as there are young pilots out there who are busting their guts to fly a jet, the low cost airlines have you all by the balls (sorry ladies, you too). Old hands may be outraged at what's happened to the status of their job, but perhaps they should look deep into their souls and ask what they would have been prepared to do (honestly) to get a jet job.

It's a tough world out there now, ladies and gentlemen, and the "principles" of old, if they ever existed, are no longer relevant. Don't blame the kids; why wouldn't they take $60K a year to fly a jet after being phaarked around in GA for nothing?

Longjohn, your post is admirable in its idealism, but in the end, meaningless. You will get a lot of nods from your fellow travellers, but the ones undercutting you will ignore you completely.

Pass-A-Frozo

13th Dec 2005, 10:56

Not going to make myself any friends here for this post, but for once I agree with P-A-F.
Geez Bino, what are you saying about me :( It wasn't that hard to agree with me was it :p

Yup, these moves will lead to military pilots slowly losing there "Qualification and Skill" annual pay bonus - but such is life. Where is that Masters enrolment form??

bushy

13th Dec 2005, 11:04

Todays airline pilots did this to GA, a decade osr so ago.

Chimbu chuckles

13th Dec 2005, 12:18

So what would you deem fair pay for;

1/. Flying a 717 domestically and,
2/. Flying a widebody twin on international ops longjohn?

I am also curious on what yyou base the 'lowest paid pilots in the world' statement?

polemic

13th Dec 2005, 18:02

Longjohn,

I think you must be talking about Jetstar Asia,
though we just knocked back the crap on offer and rightly so.
if so plese differentiate in you posts, we put a line in the sand and yet continue to listen to this crap.

sandpit

13th Dec 2005, 21:47

Would any of you in the know care to share exactly what was offered (and apparently knocked back)?

In regard to lowest paid - if you know any Canadians, ask what they get paid to fly long haul. I am a couple of years out of date now with my info, but back in 2003 it was less than $100K Canadian for A330 Capt with Air Transat, C3000 etc. Don't tell GoD!

Gnadenburg

13th Dec 2005, 23:39

Sandpit

Aren't those companies bust? Didn't they milk a once off, downsizing Canadian military of pilots? Couple that with a huge GA community.

neville_nobody

14th Dec 2005, 00:38

Air Transat are still going but were in some very very hot water after they ran a A330 out of fuel and did a glide approach over the Atlantic. That cost them 1/4 million dollars in fines for shonky maintenance amongst other things.

Canada 3000 went broke.

Both of these Carriers were Charter companies not airlines. For a fairer comparison look at the likes of Air Canada, Jazz, Alaskan, and Westjet.

To find out how much less Australian Pilots are paid less compared to our North American friends check out:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/150/103/

Why Canada 3000 went broke:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/?/news/2001/11/09/can3000analysis_011109

ccy sam

14th Dec 2005, 02:51

Ask yourself this question. Is there any reason for airline managers to improve pilots pay and conditions. Answer...... none. Why?

1 Pilots unions powerless...AFAP, or in companies back pocket Qantas union.

2 Vast oversupply of inexperienced pilots.

3 Managments complete lack of care about the "qualitity" of the pilots they employ.

4 Great leaps in technology that "protect" the pilot from hurting anyone. Flying a Jet has been dumbed down, want proof, read the Boeing manuals, minimal information given.

5 Hatred of pilots by managment, in their eyes we should be paid the same as bus drivers ( thanks Bob).

6 Complete lack of respect for pilots. Virgin ground staff and cabin crew are trained not to respect us. "The aeroplne can land itself".

All this means there is no pressure for airlines to improve anything. With the new industrial relations laws things will only get worse.

The only hope I see for the future is the pool of available pilots drying up as the 17 year olds see how worthless an airline job is nowdays and spend thier money on a career elsewhere. At the other end of the market a great increase in Australian pilots going overseas for better jobs may put pressure on airlines here to retain their pilots. There is a small trickle of Virgin pilots leaving but alas not enough to make management worry.

Its a pretty bleak outlook. I reckon I can last another 5 years then I'm gone!

Gnadenburg

14th Dec 2005, 03:15

And where are you going to go CCY?

If it's not to leave aviation altogether, don't you think Australian pilots have taught management abroad a thing or two?

Disappoints me the novelty of flying your shiny red jet about, has worn off so quickly.

Dynasty Trash Hauler

14th Dec 2005, 06:09

Longjohn, I suggest you check your numbers again.

A quick check of my cargo buddies revealed that an Evergreen skipper would be lucky to gross 95k USD with all the trimmings – that’s about 120k AUD. Living in NYC is more expensive than SYD by far. Polar and World are similar give or take. Kalitta is the pits. Last time I checked, America was in the western world.

An MD11 cargo skipper buddy of mine with an Oz wife has looked at moving to Australia and found the rates at Jetstar to fly an A320 to be competitive with his current salary.

For every Fedex/UPS driver there are 10 drivers on the bones of their butt.

coitus interuptus

14th Dec 2005, 07:01

The sad reality is that until we have a hull loss, nothing will change.

CASA have sat on thier collective hands doing NOTHING about the appalling lack of training that goes on these days.

Pay for your own endorsements yield the absolutely lowest common denominator. They are rushed and not remotely thorough.

Some guys flying jets these days actually think they know what they are doing. If only they knew!!! Minimum experience, minimum training and minimum control of standards is a recipe for a monumental disaster. When all these new a/c starting wearing out, watch for the resultant incident/accident rate increase. Sorry to be negative but reality hurts sometimes. Lets wait and see the results.

Management will have blood on their hands and they will be solely responsible for the outcome.

HI'er

14th Dec 2005, 08:01

The question is, have wages and conditions for pilots in Australia gone as low as they can?
How many other pilots now working in G.A., or overseas are willing to drop $10k, $20k, $30k below the existing salaries, to fly a shiney new jet for an airline in sunny Australia?

As P-A_F stated, "It's how a democratic non-socialist country works!"

The job may have become "easier", with the development of automation of many systems, and it IS true, aircraft can "land themselves". And as long as everything is correctly programmed, and checked, and nothing goes wrong goes wrong goes wrong, most flight will be uneventful.

However, WHEN (not IF) something(s) does stuff up, guess who wears the FULL responsibility of it?
Because when it does, THAT is when you will realise why pilots are paid more than the 'bus and train drivers with whom management seem to feel our work knowledge and responsibility are on a par.

"Aviation is not in itself inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than even the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect." (Author unknown, circa 1924)

AnQrKa

14th Dec 2005, 14:42

A mate of mine at Jetblue reckons on making about 55 -58 000 as an A320 FO in US dollars. After tax and with the cost of living in the north east of the US I would say aussie LCC drivers are in a good spot.

FatEric

14th Dec 2005, 15:00

a quick fiddle with the airline pilot central pay calculator shows a southwest first year fo making 42900 for a garanteed min 78 hours. thats 56700 oz. Not too flash.

chimbu warrior

14th Dec 2005, 15:48

At the outset I will state that I am not with Jetstar, or QF, or VB for that matter, but I am reasonably familiar with the deals that pilots in each carrier are on. Nor do I take any comfort or delight in hearing that the salaries and conditions of professional pilots are again under attack from rapacious management.

I also ask this question; is there an online forum where the employees of premium restaurants sling off that those "problem children" who accept the slave-like terms and conditions working at McDonalds?

I suspect that a lot of the comments here come from QF pilots, but maybe I am wrong.........

I take great exception to people posting derogatory comments regarding National Jet, Impulse, Southern or any other pilots who have suddenly found themselves in reduced circumstances. If you are 27 years old and an F/O at QF (for example), and are suddenly presented with a deal that you find unpalatable, sure, you can vote with your feet.

If however you are in your 50's, have been with National Jet or Impulse for 10+ years, have established yourself in a particular community for family reasons and suddenly are presented with a deal that you find unpalatable, YOUR OPTIONS ARE QUITE DIFFERENT. I am not aware of Emirates or Cathay hiring pilots in their 50's (not recently anyhow), so that "i'll just go overseas and earn the big bucks" option is not always an option.

ABSOLUTELY NOBODY wants to take a pay cut, buy a rating or accept a deal that in any way reduces your standard of living. In the case of the older pilot with a situation like that described above, it is simply a choice between choosing to retain something or alternatively lose everything. It is not the lure of the "shiny jets", but the fear of insolvency that leads people in such circumstances to accept less-than-ideal deals.

Unemployment is no major hardship when you are in your 20's; go to the beach every day, party every night, and when you run outa cash call up your former employer from GA and see if you can "help him out".

If you have been out of GA for over 10 years, your former employer most likely is no longer around, you can't even remember how to start a Chieftain, and the Bank Manager is on the phone almost daily.

What sort of choice is this?

None at all.

So before you start lumping all pilots into the category of "heroes", "thieves" or whatever for even daring to consider accepting a less-than-a-QF-B744-Captain's deal, just stop and consider the environment.

And pray that you never get old, get married or get confronted with such a choice. Because sometimes the only choice you have is no choice at all.

polemic

14th Dec 2005, 20:26

At the moment a perfect opportunity for aipa and unity, can they see it or is the sleeping giant asleep again, but hang on their main thing is Jetstar wont expand past 23 aircraft(ouch)

ginjockey

15th Dec 2005, 02:46

LongJohn,

You are a prime example of the educated, baseless opinions that exists out there in general society. I have never read so much utter vomit in my life. I have no idea how you have the brains to even manage to log on to get access to get onto the internet.

Chimbu Warriors Post says everything that needs to be said perfectly.

Forget what pilots earmed 15 or 20 years ago. Forget about the respect aspect of the job. Police used to be respected too once upon a time. Stop writing that rot about some woman who had it all and ended up a hooker or whatever that was meant to mean. Clearly , you have read too many romance novels in your shallow life. Stop complaining about the reductions in pay and conditions that occur within various companies, remove your hand from your pecker for a minute and just sit quietly until your brain catches up.

Who do you think you are representing with that garbage, perfect world talk anyway?

It's pretty simple. If you don't like the conditions and you can afford to quit. Do it! If life's circumstances prevent that then you take the best thing you can as Chimbu warrior said. It's not always fair but sometimes people need to do things they don't want to do. It's called survival, it's called looking after your family, it's called staying emplyed and that's what is happening in the real world today.

You obviously do not have the brains to understand that.

Tut tut Mr Gin Jockey. You can go stand in the corner until you cool off..

Woomera (Eastern States)

Sandy Freckle

15th Dec 2005, 02:59

And leading the furious race to the bottom of the pay scale is.........

ginjockey!

Mate, at least longjohn can see how wrong this race to be the lowest paid is. YOU seem to somehow justify it, and then castigate him for his efforts!:mad:

I suggest you go back to being a barfly, fool.:yuk:

DEFCON4

15th Dec 2005, 03:18

I don't understand.
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
I always believed that when the labour market was tight was the best time to negotiate better wages terms and conditions.
Did I miss something?
Please no globalisation rhetoric.
There has to be another reason

Iakklat

15th Dec 2005, 05:20

aiming point

15th Dec 2005, 11:14

Theres nothing to fear but the fear itself !

Have a little faith in yourself and your collegues.

Pass-A-Frozo

15th Dec 2005, 14:43

The only hope I see for the future is the pool of available pilots drying up as the 17 year olds see how worthless an airline job is nowdays and spend thier money on a career elsewhere Yup that will happen , because we all went to the local aeroclub at 17 and took flying lessons to earn "the big bucks" :rolleyes:
I don't understand.
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
I always believed that when the labour market was tight was the best time to negotiate better wages terms and conditions.
Did I miss something?
Yes. You did. The national labour market does not reflect the labour market for pilot's. Lots of people wanting airline jobs and a few jobs = lower wages . It will continue to lower until people wanting jobs = jobs wanting people.
Also, to suggest that pilot skill is somehow related to pilot salary is plain rude. You are suggesting modern day pilots earning less than those in the 70's are less skilled - simply because they earn less. Get your hand off it old man! :p

DEFCON4

15th Dec 2005, 20:45

PAF
You sure read a lot into my question.
Then to cap it off you are downright rude

Pass-A-Frozo

16th Dec 2005, 07:54

The last bit wasn't to you DEFCON4, it was to a previous poster who posted to the younger "modern day pilot", pointing to lower skills with lower pay.

What did I read into your question - I took it at face value!

HI'er

16th Dec 2005, 10:41

It will continue to lower until people wanting jobs = jobs wanting people.My 6 year old has a better understanding of the free market economy than THAT crapulence!
The numbers of (qualified) pilots applying to airlines have ALWAYS outnumbered the number of available positions.
The ACCEPTABLE number - following a series of interviews, and tests - whittled the number considerably (generally around 70 - 85%, I understand).

As airlines lowered their standards (the floodgates were thrown WIDE open in 1989), conditions* were downgraded.

You are suggesting modern day pilots earning less than those in the 70's are less skilled - simply because they earn less. Quite obviously, they ARE less skilled at negotiating! :O

*Conditions refer to more than just $$'s. They were the carrot that lured the suckers in.
The stick was liberally applied ever since, wrt unified national pilot representation.

(Perhaps one day, P-A-F will find himself a job in the REAL world, where he isn't treated like a spoonfed kindergarten kid...ie. a public servant)

Pass-A-Frozo

16th Dec 2005, 15:29

I'm curious HI'er.
You say that the "skill" and "quality" of pilots has declined over the years, yet you expect the airline to pay them the same salary package as the former "better skilled" employees?? How does that work.
You are arguing against yourself.

Perhaps if you can get "The Greens" into government you plan just might work!

Perhaps one day, P-A-F will find himself a job in the REAL world, where he isn't treated like a spoonfed kindergarten kid...ie. a public servant So I guess you stand on the side of ANZAC day marches and scream "Get a real job" ??

HI'er

16th Dec 2005, 18:14

You say that the "skill" and "quality" of pilots has declined over the years, yet you expect the airline to pay them the same salary package as the former "better skilled" employees?? How does that work.Are pilots today less RESPONSIBLE for the Safety of their aircraft and its contents, than they were previously?

The areas of "expertise" have shifted over the past 20 years, however the basic requirements of being able to fly and manage the aircraft, its systems, and crew, have stayed the same.

Your knowledge and understanding of the responsibilities of a pilot is quite apparently superficial at best, P-A-F, not surprisingly. :rolleyes:

"So I guess you stand on the side of ANZAC day marches and scream "Get a real job" ??" :confused:
WTF veterans marching once a year, has to do with this topic, is beyond me. Is this the "sheltered workshop" imduced thinking you've developed after years of "working" as a p.s.?

Pass-A-Frozo

16th Dec 2005, 19:36

"So I guess you stand on the side of ANZAC day marches and scream "Get a real job" ??"
WTF veterans marching once a year, has to do with this topic, is beyond me. Is this the "sheltered workshop" imduced thinking you've developed after years of "working" as a p.s.?

umm.. ok.. you sit there saying I should get a "real job" in the "real world" - (why you think having the government as your employer means this is not true is another discussion - after all, who did QANTAS pilots work for in the past???).

Well the "sheltered workshop" I work in, the same institution you say is not the "real world" and therefore not a "real job" is Defence. You've made it quite clear, you don't think being enlisted or an officer in the Australian Defence Force is a real job! It is a simple logic conclusion therefore that you see defence people and think "Get a real job". Either you think this or you don't. Which is it?Your knowledge and understanding of the responsibilities of a pilot is quite apparently superficial at best Don't presume to tell me what I do and don't know. Just because I don't believe in the left wing labor / green opinions you espouse does not mean I do not understand. I understand my responsibilities very well, I just don't expect to be paid more than the market decides. :ok:

DutchRoll

16th Dec 2005, 20:49

Heh heh. Geez PAF....winding things up again? How's things?

As you well know, I went from one sheltered workshop (RAAF) into another sheltered workshop (QF). We seem to spend our lives just moving from one bumbling bureaucracy to another. One is run by the Government. The other isn't (anymore, as you rightly point out - but trust me, the legacy is there!).

On 'negotiating': Under the current Government, the scales have tipped sharply in favour of the employer. Current legislation pretty much allows your employer to whittle down wages/conditions over time with impunity until they hit the lowest applicable safety net (because there comes a point where you have no more conditions to sacrifice in order to have your pay keep up with inflation). Negotiating is, I think, quite a bit more complex as a result, particularly if your employer has a plentiful source of employees.

On 'supply & demand': You're quite right. And I hope HI'ers 6 year old doesn't take up economics. It's an employers market in the major airlines in Australia. Look at the number of qualified applicants for QF mainline versus the number they actually employ, and the time successful applicants sometimes have to spend on the 'hold' file waiting for a position! Dixon and Joyce know full well at the moment that they'll get more than enough applicants for Jetstar at Jetstar rates - so long as they continue to pay more than GA and regional, which isn't much of a challenge. Conversely, where there's a shortage, like in some trades at the moment, workers are demanding - and receiving - exhorbitant rates compared to the 'norm' (crikey, I practically have to pay a bribe to get an electrician round to my place).

HI'er

16th Dec 2005, 21:15

Look at the number of qualified applicants for QF mainline versus the number they actually employ, and the time successful applicants sometimes have to spend on the 'hold' file waiting for a position!It's never been any different in Australia, Dutchie. There has always been an "oversupply" of qualified pilots available, and a reluctance of Oz pilots to move offshore to gain employment in aviation.
They'd much rather work at Burger King or Mackers, than leave their comfort zone.

just don't expect to be paid more than the market decides. And I'm sure YOU aren't, P-A-F :ok:

Galley Power

17th Dec 2005, 02:24

DEFCON4
Why in an economy that boasts 5% unemployment are wages declining.?
Although I understand what you're saying, different governments obtain their statistics differently. It is my understanding ours puts down a 'casual on only 3 hours a week' as employed in these figures!

GP

The Professor

17th Dec 2005, 03:14

True market competition has always been thwarted by the placement of artificial barriers. QF is protected on the pacific market by barriers put in place by the government. This is a barrier that suits Dixon for the time being although it is definitely finite. QF has indeed been protected from the free market for most of its history and such protection has been a key contributor to its longevity.

Trade unions also place artificial barriers on the competitiveness of the labor market. They protect the incompetent (seniorority) and ensure that inefficiency is built into the system. One only needs to take a look at the industrial garbage that was dispensed with when TESNA re-launched the A320 fleet from the remains of Ansett.. Magically, overnight, things could be accomplished with ease and efficiency that previously would have resulted in the downing of tools – a mindset still entrenched in the employees of QF. Often these barriers are not clear even to the employees themselves especially considering that the majority of QF employees have only worked for one airline and are unable to see outside the square.

Dixon is well aware that such barriers are in place in mainline in every department and cannot effectively be budged in a timely fashion as the dogs of competitive war are howling – and so along comes Jetstar (or TED, or Metrojet, or Lauda Italia or GB Airways), sans barriers.

Naturally, the employees of the incumbent will whine about how “unfair” it is to remove the barrier that has protected them from a competitive labor market for so long. Such background noise will eventually die out as a realization sets in that this is a new normal.

Also in these situations the employees of the incumbent will accuse the employees of the startup of being inferior and spineless for having failed to join the ranks of their unionized brothers. This may be true – many pilots in Jetsar were unable to join QF and would dearly love the conditions of service enjoyed by mainline crews but to label them inferior simply because they could not pass the absurdly outdated testing process at QF is disingenuous. Heavens only knows how a pacific baron would fair in an A320 sim assessment were the tables turned.

It is a common inference here on pprune that the pilots employed by Jetstar should refuse the conditions of service on offer thus forcing the company to up the offer. This is a very hypocritical point of view to take considering QF pilots accepted both a B scale pay and new set of conditions for Australian airlines. Apparently QF pilots can cave in to the demands of their employer but no one else can.

Of course, like Virgin Blue, Jetstar has been placed under the microscope by QF pilots eagerly waiting for an incident to occur thus justifying their opinion that safety is directly related to salary levels – something for which not a single shred of evidence exists.

Pass-A-Frozo

17th Dec 2005, 03:44

DutchRoll: G'day mate, long time no see.. as you can see some people never change :E

The Professor: Wow, finally a well put together post by someone who knows something about Economics -- is this pprune or have a clicked onto some other site?! :p

veryangrydriver

17th Dec 2005, 05:12

Where do i start here?

How about we all congratulate those 26 pilots who were flying 1900's with Impulse, were rejected by QF, DJ, CX, Dragon, Emirates and couldn't even get a job with AirNZ for the state of the Aus industry at the moment.

Sure Im not making friends with such a provocative post, but I really dont care because I dont frequent these forums often.

These guys were earning peanuts flying their 1900 only because nobody else in the world would give them a job until J* was born. These genius's then put their hands up to fly jets (the "Mr Discount Pilot Airline Guy" theme song comes to mind here) for stuff all $$ because to them it was a pay rise, and they had finally bluffed there way into a jet job.

I understand everybody has their own personal circumstances that they need to consider when accepting a job, but for those 26 morons who were flying with Impulse and started this mess I have absolutely no respect.

And why should I? Thanks to you guys and some of your mates the next 30 odd years of my life are probably going to be fought trying to avoid the crap conditions that you have accepted. Probably not possible though the way things are going.

Do you know that the whole world is laughing at you? Do you sit up there in cruise and talk amongst yourselves about how smart you are for getting all of mainlines flying? Will you complain in 5 years time that you dont get paid enough after accepting these sub par conditions?

If I knew 10 years ago what I knew now I would never have got into the game. Thats the truth.

The only reason I tolerated alot of crap in GA for so long was because of the chance to one day escape into a decent paying job, with decent conditions that allowed a comfortable lifestyle. I would never do the things i did to fly for J* and struggle through life living in the burbs until Im old and crusty.

To anyone starting out in the industry now, or in the early stages of GA - get out now. It isnt easy to say that, but that is my advice to you. What have you got to look forward to? 5 - 8 years living in some isolated dump of a community flying some clapped out 206 / PA31 around the desert to then pay mega $$ (which you dont have) for your own rating to then earn peanuts and fly your ass off? No thanks! And thats the truth guys and girls.

Walk away from the game before it destroys you. You have 26 ex Impulse scabs to thank for that.

Im as passionate about this topic as alot of older guys are about what happened in '89. Its absolutely disgusting. How would you feel (ex Impulse guys) if a group of idiots from somewhere come along in 5 years time and offer themselves for half of what you are earning? How would you feel as you watch your flying, pay and conditions whittle away? Would you respect these guys?

Its much like in GA when some ****** with a shiny new CPL walks in to your boss and offers to wash planes in exchange for flying. Jeez, doesnt this guy realise that the GA boss makes money when his planes fly and will pay guys to fly them?

Despite the fact that I have had a considerable swipe at a small bunch of J* people I am genuinely interested to hear about your morale out there on the line. Whats it like? Sure its great to fly a jet, and the prospect of a quick command sounds good too, but what happens after that? Remember after that your still gonna have 25 odd years left in the game with no prospects to earn much more money. And your still going to be flying your ass off!
I think the excitement would wear off fairly quickly.

J* guys and girls: I think you are worth more, most people in this industry think you are worth more, management CAN afford to pay more. Stand together as one. Infact stand along side all airline pilots in this country, and for the guys that are yet to land an airline gig and demand more money when it comes time to negotiate.

Look at other airlines around the world. Cant you see how badly your peers (yes thats you 26 scabs again) have sold you out here? Dont think for a second that crewing the 787 for A320 +20% (or whatever) is a good deal, because when the gloss wears off (and we all know that it will lets not kid ourselves) you will wish that you were earning what other drivers of your calibre around the world are earning. You deserve nothing less, so dont let some crusty old has-been tell you that 320 + some nominal % is a good opportunity. Do your research and find out what other guys girls are earning for the same job.

This is a very frustrating topic for me and many many of my peers, along with a whole bunch of airline wannabe's that are listening to what is happening to their future career prospects.

Stop selling yourselves short. Join AIPA. After all you are part of the QF group aren't you?

Col. Walter E. Kurtz

17th Dec 2005, 05:37

The only reason I tolerated alot of crap in GA for so long was because of the chance to one day escape into a decent paying job, with decent conditions that allowed a comfortable lifestyle

So it was ok for YOU to leave **** in the nest and then leave it for those coming up next to have to eat - but you don't like it now.

Fundamentally, until pilots unite in a cohesive collective, it's a free for all.

bushy

17th Dec 2005, 06:07

Many of Australia's airline pilots did serious damage to GA, and the wannabies still are doing it. They did not care much about the future of the industry they were in. Do you think they will change if they get an airline job??????
Deluded airline wannabies are undercutting the realist GA pilots, and are largely responsible for the lack of money in GA.

Pass-A-Frozo

17th Dec 2005, 06:52

What planet do you people come from? AngryDriver - leave the industry now and become a brickies labourer - you sound like you fit the bill! Just advertise what company you left so some of the younger guys can take your job. :p
Employer to 18 year old "Mate, I'll offer you a job flying 182's for $15,000 a year"
18 year old : "Well, I've spent $40,000 because I want a job flying , you are offering me one - but I think those conditions will damage the industry".

please.... :rolleyes:

Not bad money really when you assess the academic requirements for the job. Let's see , what exactly are the requirements to become a GA pilot.. umm.. I know - I managed to get $40,000 together. Resume complete!

veryangrydriver

17th Dec 2005, 07:00

Col. Kurtz,

I was referring to spending time in GA in general. Lets face it - it sucks. Flying old, barely airworthy planes, living in some place that you really dont want to be, working hard and earning next to nothing for it. No I never offered my services for less than the going rate.

"Fundamentally, until pilots unite in a cohesive collective, it's a free for all."

Exactly my point!

Join AIPA. One pilot union, better job prospects for all.

What have you got to lose? Or rather what have you got to lose by not joining?

And Pass-a-frozo if I knew where the industry was headed when I was starting out I would never have handed over 40K to get my CPL in the first place - because its just not worth it anymore.

The The

17th Dec 2005, 08:46

Professor,

The free market economy theory is a joke. Every market needs controls.

Lets look at an example. The WTO in their infinite wisdom have decided that controls and quotas on the asian textile industry are "uncompetitive". So instead of a global clothing giant getting their stuff made by paying a Cambodian $1 US per week, they can now get in made in some other pi$$ poor country paying $.90 per week. The cambodian can now no longer feed her kids nor pay for a roof over her head. And do you think your $70 T-shirt is any cheaper in the stores here? And this is globalisation at its best!

Example 2. Look at Enron. The de-regulated energy market gurus. Hold California to ransom, despite their being ample supply, the "free" market was distorted and mainipulated by greed from those intent on fleecing a gazzillion. Blackouts everywhere. Yep, free market at its best.

Economic theory is one thing, reality is another. Economics fails to deal with the simplest of human frailties - greed. The free market economy will ultimately only lead to one thing, the tighter control of capital and its consequential separation of wealth. The rich get richer and bu$$er the rest.

Aviation is no different. Controls avoid exploitation. The world is not flat, economics is just a theory.

No, I am not a communist, but believe there is no such thing as a free market. Sensible controls are needed to maintain balance in an uneven global market. Else we are all at the mercy of the lowest denominator. Strangely, I prefer our living standards to those of many other nations - our standards must be protected.

The Hooker Bear

17th Dec 2005, 08:48

Veryangrydriver,
Wow. What a passionate post. Shame it merely highlighted just how much of a bourbon-swilling inbred you are.

First of all, to which 26 Impulse pilots do you allude? Come on, you seem to know EVERYTHING about how the company operates - give us names! Do you mean the original employees of Oxley? Or some of those who flew J41s for a while? ACC staff? Ex-Ansett pilots who now form an important part of the A320 operation? Ex-89ers (from both sides of the battle)? Or do you instead refer to the 26-ish formerly redundant B1900 pilots who, in line with their termination agreement simply returned to their previous seniority # at the commencement of JQ? There are more than 250 pilots at Jetstar now. Be specific!

Secondly, it might have slipped by your incredibly precise radar that many Jetstar pilots ARE already members of AIPA. But more than a year after access was allowed none of the CoM or their staff have bothered to get in touch with any of us about either our entitlements or, more interestingly, our premiums. That's right, NO CONTACT AT ALL! Makes you feel welcome, that does.

Further, what right does a sociopath such as yourself have to comment on the workings of the Australian airline industry from the sunny shores of the UAE? If indeed you work for EK, has it completely missed you that you work for the company which, perhaps more than any, has pushed the management of Qantas towards a business model which is increasingly focussed on Jetstar?

Finally, let me be perfectly succinct about one issue. It is reactive and judgemental twerps such as your good self who have, more than anyone, been responsible for the wedge that has been driven between "Qantas Pilots" (listen to the angels sing) and everyone else. Seriously, have a read of what you argue. Essentialy, it follows this line:
"You Impulse pilots are all scabs and no-one likes you, but you'd better join OUR union and show SOLIDARITY. Or else.".

Mate, with friends like that, who needs enemies.

Calm down, take a Valium and maybe next time you'll think twice before you single yourself out as the world's most accomplished idiot.

Masalama.

HI'er

17th Dec 2005, 09:05

They (trade unions) protect the incompetent (seniorority) and ensure that inefficiency is built into the system.Would you care to enlighten us as to how "incompetents" are "protected" by a union?
The airlines' C & T systems aren't dictated to by unions.

...absurdly outdated testing process at QF It's only seen an "absurdly outdated testing process at QF" to those who FAIL it.
Different airlines employ different systems to sort the chaff from the wheat.

I love reading P-A-F's posts :rolleyes:
Here's a guy who has NEVER had any involvement with unions, has NEVER had to work in a competitive, commercial environment, and whose rank is almost guaranteed to continue moving up the longer he stays in the Public Service.
And HE's giving "advice" to true COMMERCIAL operators who must advance THEMSELVES by their own hard work and ingenuity (as opposed to just "sitting there" and waiting to be spoon fed), and turn a PROFIT for their employer.
Keep us entertained, P-A-F :ok:

Point0Five

17th Dec 2005, 09:24

Geez, The Real World (TRW) sounds awfully similar to an ivory tower!

ratpoison

17th Dec 2005, 09:29

Stop selling yourselves short. Join AIPA.
Hahahahahahah. How many deck chairs did the Titanic have.:confused:

The Professor

17th Dec 2005, 09:54

Thank you for your comments, The The. Unfortunately you have not accurately read my post. At no stage did I advocate a market free of ALL BARRIERS. Like many people, you resort to arguing from a position of absolute.

I believe some barriers should exist to protect employees from the ravages of the market place. The market will generally not reward those who are too old or suffering from physical disability for example. But one would have to admit that the conditions of service enjoyed by the employees of QF spike in comparison to most (if not all) other airlines in the same region, let alone Cambodian textile workers.

Your quota example is correct, the removal of the Multi-Fiber Agreement will have a large impact on the textile workers of Cambodia, but surely the (totally corrupt) Cambodian Government should be held accountable for such a move – the WTO does not enforce membership. Such an example has little relevance when debating the barriers that shelter employees of incumbent airlines though.

Do you think that the controls in place that ensure a QF SO, who, for all intents and purposes doesn’t actually fly, earns as much or more than a competitor’s captain are sensible?

Pass-A-Frozo

17th Dec 2005, 10:04

Hi'er:
I was employed in the private sector before joining Defence.

I'm not giving advice to "commercial" operators. I'm telling you our skills are not worth the money you think they are. The previous couple of "anti-globalisation" and "pro-union" posts serve only to prove my point that becoming a pilot requires no hard to acquire qualifications, such as academic achievements.

Unfortunately for you, you know I'm right - that is why your only defence is to call me a "public servant". If you must know, military Officers are not considered part of the APS. However you can call me what you like - if it makes you feel better whilst watching your pay packet decline.

You don't want to "turn a PROFIT" for your employer. You're always talking about management sticking it to you, and you want to stick it right back. Your sole goal is to fill your greedy little hands with cash - don't try hide behind ideology now... and what's your method to achieve that? Get everyone ELSE to turn down there pay offers.

The The: The (is there an echo in here? :) market economy is what has put you in your comfortable house. I think North Korea allow you to immigrate if you ask nicely. Economic theory as you put it works - pick up a text book on economics and take a look at "Market failures" and the measures to address them. As Professor said, your arguing absolutes that are not relevant.

OH, and HI'er: At least you've stopped saying defence is not a "real job" .

The The

17th Dec 2005, 13:10

Pass, you certainly are an angry young man. Thank you for the suggested reading but it's been a very long time since I've had the inclination to pick up my old university texts. These days I prefer reading a bit of history or some of the classics. Perhaps you can enlighten me with your new found knowledge on addressing market failures. What subject are you up to now; Economics 102?

Perhaps you might have a bit more understanding if your job was being outsourced to Durkadurkastan! I'm sure they'd make fine military officers at a pittance the cost. :)

Sorry Prof, but comments like "true market competition" led me to form such a view. And what should we do with those S/O's who find themselves earning more than the new age LCC captain? Cut their salary in half immediately, will we all feel so much better then?

Everyone knows the days of being well paid (whatever that means) for pilots is just about over. It is a race to the bottom, instigated by management, perpetuated by pilots. I'd rather fly a jet than stack shelves for the same amount (about as useful as my economics degree is; Pass). We need a little something to save our bacon, the "free" market surely aint gonna do it.

Zapatas Blood

17th Dec 2005, 14:16

The The,

“Everyone knows the days of being well paid (whatever that means) for pilots is just about over”.

It is. Really. Do you have an actual date will this will become official.

Perhaps what you meant to say was this:

“Everyone knows that the days of being paid high salaries will eventually come to an end as Dixon and co outsmart our greedy pilot union who has had its head up its bum worrying about the 744 only and force us to work according to industry standard”.

numbskull

17th Dec 2005, 19:39

"one would have to admit that the conditions of service enjoyed by the employees of QF spike in comparison to most (if not all) other airlines in the same region"

That may be true when you compare to airlines that use cheap third world labour.These airlines are also the worlds most profitable.

I suppose some would argue that they are the most profitable simply due to their good management not the fact that they pay their workers some of the lowest wages in the world.

The average QF worker may very well get paid a lot more than those in the region but not compared with other workers of similiar skill/responsibilities/experience within Australia.

The average QF worker just starting out will struggle to provide the basic necessities to raise a family (especially in Sydney where a high proportion of the jobs are).

The gloss will wear off for the people who are doing the undercutting as they realise someone else will do it for even less than them as they struggle to pay for their two bedroom house on the outskirts of Sydney. Already the government is bringing in tradesmen from China/Korea/Vietnam/Phillipines. What makes any of you LCC pilots think they won't do it to you in the future?

Their IR tactic is to bring new starters in on less money than the current employees. The current employees get screwed on their conditions but they never take money off them because it would be too destabilising.

OK I probably won't get to play with the shiny new 787 ( that will probably require me to sign a new agreement if I want to get trained on that) - but at least I will be able to provide adequately for my family without undercutting someone else.

The people that keep quoting economic text books/market theory/capitalism can keep it to themselves. Market theory gets G.D six million a year and growing in double digits while the average workers conditions are reduced to 5 minmum guaranteed entitlements.Capitalism gets us FAI,One Tel,Enron,Christopher Skase etc.

Capitalism may be the best system for managing an economy we have but IT IS DEEPLY FLAWED!!!!!!!!!

Everything in moderation.

Ronnie Honker

17th Dec 2005, 23:13

Perhaps you might have a bit more understanding if your job was being outsourced to Durkadurkastan! I'm sure they'd make fine military officers at a pittance the cost.

Now there's a thought.
Are the higher paid Defence Forces of western powers superior to their lesser paid foreign equivalents?
The past 50 years would suggest quite the opposite, in fact.

The Korean War of the 1950's saw the Yanks get their asses kicked, with no victory to either side.

Twenty years on, and Americans and Australians were taught a lesson in geurilla warfare by the North Vietnamese, aka the Vietcong, ending in defeat for the Western forces.

Fast forward to now, and it's evident that in spite of the billions of dollars being spent on the pro-American forces and their weaponry, the unpaid insurgent forces are highlighting exactly how INeffective these professionals are.

Perhaps Pass a Frozo might care to indicate what value he feels he contributes to Australia, in light of the foregoing?

DutchRoll

18th Dec 2005, 00:46

To whom it may concern on this thread:

If you want to specifically, or even implicitly, sledge Australian men & women in uniform, go do it elsewhere.

:mad:

HI'er

18th Dec 2005, 00:57

Yes, agreed, Dutchie :ok: .
This forum is ONLY for "men and women in uniform" who want to sledge Australian professional pilots!

It's just not fair to turn the tables like that, is it :{

(btw, I can't see any of what Ronnie has written is factually incorrect).

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 03:44

Ronnie and HI'er: Outsource it if you want. I really don't mind at all! I'd be worried a bit for Australia though. Maybe you can make some protest signs up and wave them around on ANZAC day to gather support for your idea??

It's not up to me to decide if I'm contributing to Australia, it's up to members of the Australian public. Clearly you don't think the ADF does contribute to Australia - well that's fine I don't mind in the slightest - it's a democracy! The Australian Greens are anti-defence and will no doubt have a candidate in your area. Maybe you can get a second opinion on the worth of the ADF from the Bali burns victims.

Feel free to start a new thread to discuss western military doctrine - however I suspect your knowledge in the field is about as comprehensive as your knowledge and education in economics.

Pilot pay will continue to drop for the reasons I've outlined. If you don't like the pay - change to another job and stop abusing people who are happy with it!

Ronnie Honker

18th Dec 2005, 04:10

I wasn't suggesting outsourcing ADF jobs Passa, but I was stating that those "men and women in uniform" - who are paid, by the way (they don't do it for love) - drawing their salary from the public purse, don't appear to be performing as well as their lesser/nil paid opponents.

Perhaps we Aussies should send ALL of our jobs offshore, and just enjoy the beaches.
Oh, hang on a minute, there are riots there again.

Brian Abraham

18th Dec 2005, 04:15

Ronnie H,
Twenty years on, and Americans and Australians were taught a lesson in geurilla warfare by the North Vietnamese, aka the Vietcong, ending in defeat for the Western forces

You do the military a disservice. They won the military battle in Tet 68 but every thing was thrown away by the politicians not being able to withstand the forth estate and protests at home.

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 04:23

At risk of thread creep.... [you really should start a new thread if you want to discuss the worth of the ADF]
don't appear to be performing as well as their lesser/nil paid opponentsSo precisely what performance measure are you using? How many Australian casualties have "our opponents" inflicted in the last decade in Timur Leste, Solomons, ICAT [Afghan], Iraq and Sudan?

Obviously you see the intel reports that show how many times Australian military forces are actually shot at / engaged on a day to day basis, right?

I think you'll find quite a significant number of pilots stay in the RAAF because they love it - instead of joining the flow to QANTAS or Cathay, etc?
Me personally, I want to work in Airline management :p :p :O

DutchRoll

18th Dec 2005, 05:00

This forum is ONLY for "men and women in uniform" who want to sledge Australian professional pilots!

HI'er, I don't particularly care if you sledge PAF, or if he sledges you. If it makes you feel better, I've never sent him a Christmas card. However, it seems to me that he isn't denigrating all australian commercial pilots in general, whether or not you choose to take it that way. He seems to be stating his opinion - which is just as qualified as all the other friggin' experts on PPrune - on the market realities in Australian aviation at the moment. There are a lot of people in this airline industry - the very one I work in - who just keep saying over and over 'we deserve more' or 'we don't deserve to be undercut'. Like any group of employees, it doesn't bloody matter what any of us think we deserve! I personally think I deserve a salary of at least a million dollars a year. It matters what employers are willing to pay us, and central to that theme is whether there is anyone out there who is qualified to do the same job, but cheaper.

If you don't like the fact that there are heaps of underpaid but qualified pilots out there who are quite willing to fly commercial jets doing RPT around Australia for peanuts, and relatively new companies out there who are more than willing to hire them, and that we are seriously struggling to hold onto our current conditions, then that's too bad (incidentally, I don't like that fact either - too bad for me also). I hear Chinese aviation is booming and they have a shortage of pilots, so I imagine their pay is going up and up. Perhaps you could apply for a job with China Southern?

None of this has anything to do with military versus commercial, or working for the Government (and believe me, there are people out there employed by the government who for some mysterious reason work their rings off for sweet nothing compared to what they could get in the commercial world). So let the personal sledging continue if you must, but we could all lay off the generalisations, like (and I accept this wasn't your quote HI'er - it could only come from someone living in far far away Ronnie Honkerland):

those "men and women in uniform" - who are paid, by the way (they don't do it for love) - drawing their salary from the public purse, don't appear to be performing as well as their lesser/nil paid opponents

PAF......most of them only love it for as long as the flying lasts, and unfortunately that still has artificial barriers placed on it! The other thing you will probably find over time (when it tips you over the edge) is the sheer frustration of the bureaucracy!

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 05:10

the sheer frustration of the bureaucracy!
Already started hating the RAAF for that one :E
(3 1/2 years ROSO to go!) To many parts of the RAAF sticking it's nose into personal stuff!
I think I'll do my next tour then look elsewhere - not necessarily flying. Wouldn't mind airline management..

Gnadenburg

18th Dec 2005, 06:48

PAF

As you have alluded to, there is a cold wind blowing on civy street. Perhaps, conveniently, too cold for you to join us? Far easier to stay in your present comfort zone and draw a pension? Or, as airline managment is unlikely for you despite your jest, CASA has a bit of a boys club for your ilk. ;)

Bringing the ANZAC's into the argument inappropriate, and in the context of the debate, came accross like hiding behind a skirt. Do you really compare flying a Caribou for the United Nations to the exploits of service pilots during WW2, Korea or Vietnam?

Vocal pilot groups fighting to protect their conditions of service is good for the industry. They tend to also stand up to profit saving pressures on issues such as maintenance, airspace and training standards. But you wouldn't know PAF.

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 07:49

Far easier to stay in your present comfort zone
I'm always curious at comments like that. If it's such a wonderful life, with easy cash "Flying caribou's for the UN" then why aren't you doing it? Defence recruiting is open Monday. (it's out of that cold wind I believe) :rolleyes:

I didn't bring the ANZAC's into it. They are dead and buried.. I made mention of ANZAC day. At no stage did I say "Flying a caribou for the UN" is the same as WWII flying! I'm curious where you draw that conclusion from?? I said it before, it's up to people like you to decide if the ADF does anything positive for Australia. I guess you think the modern ADF has done nothing positive. Oh well, really doesn't bother me.
As for your "knowing" comment - no I'll never know. I'll never join a "Vocal Pilot Group". I'll be assessing pay and conditions myself and making a decision based on my situation, not yours.

pcpilot2

18th Dec 2005, 12:33

Everyone's going on about how jet* drivers are undercutting by accepting less money then others to steer the same size plane.
What are they being paid to fly the 717/A320?.
What is jet* offering them to fly the A330/787 in the future?.

HI'er

18th Dec 2005, 13:12

I'll be assessing pay and conditions myself and making a decision based on my situation, not yours.LOL, P-A-F.
A naieve comment such as that one only further reinforces how cocooned your life as a public servant is, in the real world.

I think you'll find quite a significant number of pilots stay in the RAAF because they love it - instead of joining the flow to QANTAS or Cathay, etc? Actually, they don't hold the qualifications to claim even a backseat.
Who wouldn't "love" flying only 300 hours, single pilot (in command) per year, and know that your job was "government guaranteed", without the responsibility of flight planning, fuel uplift, nor professional responsibility!

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 13:22

People making there own decisions for themselves (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169198) . You even posted there - for once nothing about "Let's strike f*$k management.
Like I've said, Defence recruiting is open Monday. If you think it's the easy life. It's all about personal choice!Who wouldn't "love" flying only 300 hours, single pilot (in command) per year, and know that your job was "government guaranteed", without the responsibility of flight planning, fuel uplift, nor professional responsibility What company does that occur in?!
<300 hours = Wrong!
Single Pilot = Wrong!
Government Guaranteed = actually, guaranteed by the "Conditions and pay" we accepted . In fact we can't even take industrial action! (If only other companies had that protection!)
Without responsibility for:-
Flight Planning - Wrong! We do our own
Fuel Uplift - Wrong! We do our own
Professional Responsibility - Wrong! We are not only covered by civil offences but the Defence Force discipline act.

Anyway, I thought the topic was airline pay and condictions!

Read the above thread you posted in, I think that is a good discussion on people "quitting" or not accepting pay and conditions if they PERSONALLY don't like it. That is the way it works. That is what I'm saying all along. I'm really not sure how you attacking my pay and condition proves any point other than you'd like my job??

HI'er

18th Dec 2005, 14:09

P-A-F, you obviously enjoy being controlled - it saves having to make decisions yourself!

"Anyway, I thought the topic was airline pay and condictions (sic!"
Yes, it is.
When/if you're qualified as a Seconf Officer with Qantas, come back and talk to us from an enlightened point of view.

In the meantime, get your head down, and your tail up, to pass those EXTRA subjects you'll need to sit in the jumpseat of an airliner! :ok:

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 14:17

In the meantime, get your head down, and your tail up, to pass those EXTRA subjects you'll need to sit in the jumpseat of an airliner!naa.. at this stage not sure I like the pay and conditions. Might use my academic quals to go for an Airline management job. Apparently that's where you go to get your snout in the trough. :ok:

Mind you, I think the government would pay for the majority of these "courses".

HI'er

18th Dec 2005, 14:28

Might use my academic quals to go for an Airline management job.Or lack thereof.
Public servant....nil experience in commercial aviation ops.....self-centred......still trying to prove yourself.
You sound as though you'd be the PERRRRRFECT candidate for an airline CEO, Geoff......sorry...P-A-F. :}

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Dec 2005, 14:33

So you have my university transcript there?? I'm not trying to prove anything! I'm not the one trying to whine to the world I'm worth more than I'm paid.

Anyway, this is just getting silly [ although I think you are enjoying the discussion as much as me!] . I don't control your salary. You don't control mine. The fact remains the economy will decide both our salary whether you abuse me or not! :ok:

P.s. Geoff Dixon should be PM :E
anyway, feel free to jump on PPRuNe chat to say G'day!

HI'er

18th Dec 2005, 15:09

Geoff Dixon should be PM
Brian McCarthy - an airline pilot, and an ex-ADF officer - proved the worth(lessness) of current airline CEO's, even when they had full government backing.]
They (the airlines) haven't forgotten the hiding they were given then, and are still trying to re-establish their "authority" now, by using basal, heavy-handed, overbearing tactics, on an above average intelligent workforce.

Dixon has NO academic qualifications.

The pilots currently have NO unity, and therefore no counter "clout", nor do they have the individual negotiating skills to stop their conditions being further eroded.

Howard Hughes

19th Dec 2005, 05:46

HI'er,

I tend to try and stay out of threads which debate that famous year when I was but a fresh faced CPL, but you have stirred some interest with these gems....

Brian McCarthy - an airline pilot, and an ex-ADF officer - proved the worth(lessness) of current airline CEO's Just who did he show? You really have to be kidding, he gave them exactly what they wanted, a reduced workforce size for deregulation. They (the airlines) haven't forgotten the hiding they were given then Whilst the airlines may have suffered from lost earnings in the short term, the people who paid the most, were the ones whose livelihoods were lost or careers ended prematurely, these people suffered far more IMHO. on an above average intelligent workforce When I stop laughing, I may get back to this one!! http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/lolup.gif

From where I am sitting there were no winners from the dispute (apart from some who may have made a short term gain), there were however many losers and we continue to see repercussions 15+ years on.
Based on your post's you seem to have a very one sided view of things, but then again maybe my "real world" is just a little different to yours.;)

The only time we will make any progress is when we choose to forget the past (but not the lessons learned) and look forward to a unified future.......:ok:

HH. :ok

HI'er

19th Dec 2005, 07:11

Whilst the airlines may have suffered from lost earnings in the short term.....Perhaps you should contact them, and ask them what their short term losses were, HH.
Let's see now, you could start with IPEC - hang on a minute, they're not around.

Well, try East-West then.
Who?

Okay, in that case get on to the 2 majors - Australian (TAA), or Ansett - they had deep pockets.

There was thread running here a while back titled "Where are they now?" - maybe you could see if the 4 missing airlines involved have been found.
I tend to try and stay out of threads which debate that famous year when I was but a fresh faced CPL,No need to, just try educating yourself a little more about subjects that you intend entering into discussion.

on an above average intelligent workforceHappy to have tickled your fancy with that little gem.
btw, are you one of "today's" pilot workforce, HH?
One of those doing so much better than the pilots of "that" year? :8

Dixons Cider

19th Dec 2005, 08:23

Never have I read so much bitching, sniping and back stabbing at ones peers as on this thread.

How you ever expect to obtain this fabled unity you have all been talking about, with the attitudes displayed here. Those sitting in the Ivory Towers must be laughing themselves all the way to the bank.

There have been constant references to the Jetstar pilot group that have/will undercut what is considered to be acceptable. So what is the figure they have accepted? What are the numbers that they rejected for the 787? Does anybody actually know correctly? If so, put on the table, lets make some comparisons, lets see if the Jetstar boys and girls really are the industry pariahs that they have been portrayed to be here.

Ever seen a pack of mongrel dogs that suddenly turn on one individual that is week or sick. Not a pretty sight. Why do I have that image in my mind after reading through this thread?

Point0Five

19th Dec 2005, 09:39

on an above average intelligent workforce
That's probably why other PPRuNe'rs are curious about why they need Year 12 subjects to be a pilot:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202759 (http://)

Howard Hughes

19th Dec 2005, 10:09

HI'er

It is interesting that you choose not to address the more difficult points that I have raised, rather question my education and qualifications.

NB: In order to have a reasoned debate you first need to acknowledge that there is a contrary point of view.

"This is not an argument, it's just contradiction" Monty Python.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

HI'er

19th Dec 2005, 13:49

Howie...maaaate..I haven't questioned your education, nor your quals.
You appear to be an Oz domestic pilot, smarter and more industrially aware than your predecessors - which is WHY you are enjoying superior employment conditions?
Am I correct, or not, in assuming that?

......now, on to the "more difficult points" (that) you have raised...

oicur12

28th Dec 2005, 16:19

HiEr,

“It's only seen an absurdly outdated testing process at QF to those who FAIL it”.

Pass or fail, it’s absurd. And outdated too.

Numbskull,

“That may be true when you compare to airlines that use cheap third world labour”

Actually, it’s also true when you make a comparison with first world airlines in the same region.

“The people that keep quoting economic text books/market theory/capitalism can keep it to themselves. Market theory gets G.D six million a year and growing in double digits while the average workers conditions are reduced to 5 minmum guaranteed entitlements.Capitalism gets us FAI,One Tel,Enron,Christopher Skase etc.”

Market theory also “gets” you a car with 6 airbags and ABS brakes, and reduces the cost of an early model DVD player from 1000 dollars to just a few hundred.

“Capitalism may be the best system for managing an economy we have but IT IS DEEPLY FLAWED!!!!!!!!!”

Yes, it certainly is. But you have absolutely no choice but to participate if you want to continue flying aeroplanes.