ELT's

[Thomas coupling]

It seems all Uk public transport will have to have an ELT by 1.1.03.

Wish I had shares in the company that makes them <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

At £6500 a throw (suggested costs)it's going to be an expensive mod process for some.

What's next on the horizon: HUMS?

[Marco]

At present the FODCOM (1/2002)is just consultative. It does suggest that only a/c who initial C of A is after 1 Jan 02 will have to have an automatic ELT by 1 Jan 03. A/C whose C of A was issued before this year should have until 1 Jan 05.

The point is though, is to read it and get your objections/points in by 15 Mar 02

[widgeon]

must be expenzive over there we have em for about $600 , what TsO do the Uk ones have to conform to ?

[Weight and Balance]

Yes Widgeon, but you have to remember you're looking at it from the other side. You buy 'em at $600, and then charge $6,500 fully installed.

All you overhead types add up. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[offshoreigor]

TC,

If you think that's expensive, consider the fact that 121.5 will become unmonitored by 2025 and 406 becomes manditory!

Funny you should mention HUMS or IHUMS whatever, most Oil companies want them now! Yikes, the old 76 is getting heavier by the minute!

Cheers <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OffshoreIgor <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

PS. Are you going to the Eagles Nest in May? If you are, don't forget you're golf clubs. Sounds like it will be a blast.

[Droopy]

Why not HUMS if it can be made sufficiently light and affordable? It would have been v. useful last year when our main gearbox input quill started shaking itself to bits! As regards ELTs, we've already fitted one and it's reassuring to know that if we end up in a survivable heap on some hillside, the satellites will be picking up our GPS position on 406.

[John Eacott]

ELT's were a thorny problem down here. Some 6-7 years ago, CASA mandated for ELT's to be fitted to all aircraft. AOPA ran a heavy campaign against, arguing the number of times that 'fixed' ELT's were of no use, either sinking with the airframe after ditching, or burning, or just getting wrecked in the crash. They proposed that a choice be allowed, of either portable (which theoretically would remain with the pilot, and therefore always be useable) or fixed. CASA got rolled, and the requirement was rescinded in favour of AOPA's option.

I have 6 axis fixed ELT's in all my machines, plus plenty of portables. There is a quite comprehensive Advisory Pub. from CASA which deals with preferred installation issues for fixed ELT's, eg shortest possible antennae cable run, main unit to be buried in main airframe structure, no cable run to pass through points where structure may fail and break the cable, etc. 6 axis ELT costs (IIRC) about $A1000, installation varies on complexity, but budget about $A2k. Battery usually requires replacing 2 yearly.

Cheap, affordable safety. What's the issue?

[Marco]

John

Is the ELT you're talking about automatic? It is interesting about your prices as the UK CAA mentioned £20K for possible purchase and installation. Any more details would be appreciated as we cross this route in Sept/Oct this year.

[John Eacott]

<a href="http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/Airworth/252a_1.PDF" target="_blank">This link to CASA</a> will show the Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP) that deals with our ELT installation. CAR252 <a href="http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/rules/1988regs.htm" target="_blank">here</a> deals with the legislation requiring fitting of automatic ELT's. Basically, since 31st July 1997, all Aust. registered aircraft have been required to carry an approved ELT, unless operating within 50 nm of base, an Ag operation, or minor permissions from CASA. The absolutely amazing exemption to this requirement are high capacity RPT and high capacity Charter aircraft (ie &gt;38 seats or &gt;4200kg payload). CASA's argument is that such aircraft will always be under full reporting or radar, so they would know if they went down, and where. Amazing stuff.

I use the Artec 110-6, which is the 6 axis version set up with G switches in all planes, giving better safety for helicopter ops., which may not trigger a normal four axis ELT. JetRangers I fit the ELT in the bay above the boot, with the antennae on the skin just aft of the engine bay door. BK117 it's fitted on the stub tail boom, aft of the stbd engine, under the exhaust, with the antennae on the skin directly above. 109, avionics bay, antennae on the fuselage directly outside. Artec 110-6 costs about $A2000, less for the 4 axis 110-4. The -4 can be mounted at an angle to help activation as a cheaper alternative, but in the long run, it pays to fork out for the -6.

(Edited to update price and CASA details)

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>

[widgeon]

John your prices are in the ball park for the artex 200hm which has the 6 axis switch , the artex 110-406 with full nav interface is around 12k USD installed on a 206. This I think reports last position as well as a emergy signal. Anyone else at HAI ??

[Qualityman]

Had a visit from our CAA Inspector today, Very nice man, (just in case he's reading !) and we discussed this very point.

The FODCOM states that all helicopters have to be fitted with an ELT by January 2003 to meet the JAA / ICAO requirements, although aeroplanes issued with an initial C of A before 01 2002 would be exempt as the retrospective fitting would be too difficult and costly. However in the Impact Assessment (para 2.1.3)it states that "The ICAO Standards relating to ELT equipment for International Commercial Air Transport applies to aeroplanes on long-range over-water flights and over designated land areas and helicopters over water at specified distances form land and over designated land areas...."

My questions to him were, as we are an on-shore operator and primarily operate Single engine VFR helis, do NOT operate internationally, do NOT operate for extended periods or distances over water:. .1) What are the designated land areas?. .2) If we don't operate over the designated land areas are we not exempt from the requirements for an ELT to be fitted?

The FODCOM and the JAR requirements as always are subject to interpretation, and he was unable to give me a definitive answer.

As an operator responsible to several private owners I know that I will have an extremely hard time trying to justify the fitting of an ELT to their aircraft.

The only advice he was able to give me was that the ELT did not have to be of the "automatically deployable" type only "G-sensitive".

any other on-shore operators experienced any other views?

edited because I'm incompetent !!!

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Qualityman ]</p>

[mvh]

Breitling put one in a wristwatch... they're AU$7000 and the guy in the said you need to present a pilots license if you want to buy one.

It's the Professional "Emergency" model at <a href="http://www.breitling.com/eng/models/professional/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.breitling.com/eng/models/professional/index.html</a>

Only does 121.5 though.

regz,. .-marc.

[400 Hertz]

Keep your ear to the ground regarding the introduction of the new FDR's. These are being phased in on old aircraft after 2005, and on new builds from 2003. To meet NTSB recommendations A99-16 to 18. Get some money into Spirent Systems (used to be called Penny & Giles) if you want to see it grow. Their new MPFR is a nifty bit of kit and 35% smaller than the old ones we have at the moment.

[Max Contingency]

Just to make this clearer. It's 406 Mhz ELTs, with an associated 121.5 tx, that will become compulsary in the UK. COSPAS/SARSAT will cease to process 121.5 and 243 MHz in 2009 (not 2025 as previously stated). This is due to the unaceptable false alarm rate on these frequencies (approx 99%!!) The 406 Mhz ELTs are all given a unique identification code that should be registered, by aircraft or operator, with the relevant national database. The UK database is presently held at the Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre, RAF Kinloss. Registration is essential as 406 Mhz ELTs are normally detected by a Geo-stationary sattelite with a footprint of 1/5 of the globe, that will NOT give positional information. The position will later be obtained by the next pass of a Low Earth Orbiting sattelite and should be resolved to within 5 Nm, the 121.5 tx will only be used to localise the position by the SAR boys.

Yes they are expensive, but only 2 weeks ago an EPIRB (the mandatory maritime version of an ELT) helped to save 18 lives within the UK Search and Rescue Region.

No I don't work for a beacon manufacturer!!!

[widgeon]

<a href="http://www.artex.net/3_freq_beacons.html" target="_blank">http://www.artex.net/3_freq_beacons.html</a>

link to one of the manufacturers

<a href="http://www.seaerospace.com/eltenc.htm" target="_blank">http://www.seaerospace.com/eltenc.htm</a>

link to south east aerospace price list about 3K. .USD for the 110-406hm , I guess installation costs must be horrendous in the UK LOL.

[ 21 February 2002: Message edited by: widgeon ]</p>

[Bertie Thruster]

Anyone know of any handheld homers that can home on 121.5 or 243 or 406?

[Spunk]

So, are there any EASA approved 406 ELT's for helicopters out there yet?:ugh:

Thinking of one for a Hughes 300 in particular...

[jbrereton]

As far as I can read into this unless you are flying over water you do not require an ELT. Comments!

FODCOM 18/2004
Helicopters Conducting Public Transport Operations.
When flying for the purpose of Public Transport on or after 1 January 2005 and when flying over water beyond 10 minutes flying time from land when operating in Performance Group A2,
or when beyond autorotational or safe forced landing distance from land when operating in Performance Group B, the helicopter is to be fitted with an automatic ELT capable of transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz.

Furthermore, when flying for the purpose of Public Transport on or after 1 January 2005 when flying over designated land areas which have been designated by the State concerned as areas in which search and rescue would be especially difficult to be fitted with an automatic ELT capable of transmitting on 121.5 MHz and 406 MHz, ELTs shall operate in accordance with the relevant provisions of Annex 10, Volume III.

Note:
The UK does not have designated land areas which have been designated as areas in which search and rescue would be especially difficult.