Blackhawk down....

[Steve76]

By now most of us have seen it.. .Who's wondered why the guys didn't try for some airspeed or a LH turn or something rather than pickle it into a bunch of unfriendly "skinnies"?. .Hindsight is a wonderful thing....

[Nick Lappos]

Steve76,

IMHO, the myth of diving for speed and flying out of a tail rotor failure are a fiction of the simulator.

Most helicopters cannot even hold level flight at high speed without tail thrust, let alone somehow accelerate from a low hover.

[Blade88]

Steve,. . It's a "Movie" you know, Hollywood. Do you believe everything you saw in the movie actually happened?

[offshoreigor]

Blade88

From my recollections of Mogadishu, (UNOSOMII), talking to the people who were actually on the ground at the time, with the exception of a couple of Hollywood touch ups, it sounds like it was fairly acurate.

Cheers, <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> OffshoreIgor <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Steve76]

This thread eventuated because every pilot I talked to (without prompting...)queried why they didn't try to fly away. . .I started it specifically to solicite a response from Nick. I figure if anyone know it should be him.. .It also made me consider (as dumb as it may sound) the advantages of housing the tail rotor in a mesh cage. The second BH only copped a blow to the TR from an RPG. If it had been shouded, would it have had no effect.....

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Nick Lappos]

Steve76,. .All reports seem to say that the film was accurate in all important ways. Those pesky RPG's pack a wallop, and are deadly to armor at close range (I've seen the holes they punch in the side skin on medium tanks - M48A1's).

A Turkish Jandarma Black Hawk was hit in the transition section, just forward of where the tail cone starts, by an RPG, and it was flown about 50 miles home with a 3 foot hole, minus one tail hydraulic system and one tail cable (the unique tail cable quadrant of the Hawk gives the pilot full control with one cable shot away). Another was hit in the belly with an RPG, and also flew home.

My earlier post states something that I think needs clarification. Most training simulators I have flown represent that a loss of tail thrust can be flown out by lowering the nose, gaining speed and letting the vertical tail balance the torque as speed is gained. This is simply not possible, based on the much more accurate research simulation and hand calculations of aerodynamic experts that I have dealt with.

One technique I can easily endorse, however, is to avoid chopping throttles at first, unless the situation is really out of control due to spin rate. If possible, hold the aircraft level and lower yourself down to within 15 or 20 feet of the surface, then cut the throttles. This allows the rotor energy a chance to stop the descent as ground contact is made. If the throttles are cut at 75 or 100 feet, the landing will be a real problem due to high rate of descent.

[RW-1]

[quote]One technique I can easily endorse, however, is to avoid chopping throttles at first, unless the situation is really out of control due to spin rate. If possible, hold the aircraft level and lower yourself down to within 15 or 20 feet of the surface, then cut the throttles. This allows the rotor energy a chance to stop the descent as ground contact is made. If the throttles are cut at 75 or 100 feet, the landing will be a real problem due to high rate of descent. . . <hr></blockquote>

I like that anology Nick, keep the main going until you don't need it, or cannot safely fly powered right? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I'm getting some practice lately on pirroettes and control, hovering pedal turns of increasing rate, and starting forward or backwards movement, performing pedal turns as I move. Really gives one a handle on coordinating cyclic as I go, . .and was fun to boot.

[John Eacott]

With the benefit of recent experience, I can attest that any thoughts of nosing over and flying away is up there with the fairies. Doesn't exist!!

To be honest, unless you've got an exceptionally well trained and co ordinated two pilot crew, you can forget about pulling speed selects, too. The only way that I got on the ground in one piece (apart from the bits that fell off the back <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) was to absolutely dump the collective, and ride it down.

[t'aint natural]

John: Can you give us some details of what happened to you?

[John Eacott]

Fire call, positioned late at night, 2330 arrived and recc'ed landing area. Blown landing lamp on last departure, high hover (about 20 ft), drifted back and chainsawed a tree with the tail rotor. TR & TRGB departed BK117, started rotating, dumped lever, hit reasonably hard (emergency lights went on, ELT didn't activate, giving between 2-6G). Rotated total of about 100-120 degrees, including 20-30 degrees on the ground. Spread fwd crosstube, no other airframe damage.

Absolutely no way I could have flown out, gained airspeed, chopped throttles, or any other option. Classic case of the holes lining up in the Swiss cheese, entirely my fault for flying when tired, and poor judgment calls as a result.

Now, ask me what I think of Eurocopter Deutschland customer service, or German efficiency in customer support. <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> 3 months, and ZF won't even give a strip report on the MGB, let alone return the darn thing <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Chinook]

Give it a try guys ....

Hover OGE in a well loaded helicopter, sweat bricks and **** your own pants while people who want to kill you shoot footballs made of HE at you, then suddenly start yawing at about 720 deg per second.

Oh, and I forgot, be only 50-100 feet above an urban environment.

Read about you in the papers I will!

[MightyGem]

In the hover? No chance. In the cruise? Our Chief Pilot flew a AS 355 back to the airfield and made a controlled run on after a departing panel broke the TR drive shaft.

[Steve76]

Yeah no **** its hollywood,. .But what got everyone here interested was during the second attack when the helo seemed to be transitioning quite nicely with a soon to be departed tail rotor. . .SO, despite all the macho "You try flying at MAUW, OGE with your LH tied behind your back and then save a bad situation" replies...Fact: It wasn't in a hover. . .No one here was there, so we can only go by what is shown. . .Oh! and hovering at MAUW, OGE .... who doesn't? Its called commercial helicopter aviation lads.

[Hookherder]

Fellas....having been on the receiving end of a couple of those communist built whiz bangs....there is no way you could carry enough armor on the end of the tail boom to protect the tail rotor. The mere suggestion an enclosed tail rotor would have changed the outcome one bit is in fact "Hollywood" thinking. The darn things did a pretty good job on the American M-48 tanks we used in Vietnam. I can tell you first hand that they are lethal to Chinooks.

A very nice photo of what an RPG can do to a Chinook in a hover can be found within the VHPA website (vhpa.org). You will have to go the 205th Geronimos unit history site, and link to Frenchy Viol's section and read his account of being shot down by an RPG. He has several pics of the aircraft. GI humor tagged a native German as "Frenchy".

[Belgique]

You can read the first-hand account of that day in Somalia here:. .It's a rivetting read - and it takes me back to TET.

<a href="http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/" target="_blank">http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/</a>

[helmet fire]

Steve, in the book they were flying at around 60 Kts when shot down, not in the hover as you say the film suggests (I have not seen the film yet). My recollection was that the troops rappelled in OK, then the Black Hawk's went to their holding points at 60 Kts and 300 ft at which point they started getting shot down. IF this is true (it almost beyond belief that you would expose your helicopter to a small arms threat by flying at 300 ft and 60 Kts) then you should not be at all suprised to lose a few.

. .Also see the thread by the same name in Military Aircrew for some perspective on the military aspects (ie total goat screw puts poor soldiers in a fight for their lives).

Edited to add bit about Military thread.

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: helmet fire ]</p>

[Geronimo 33]

This is lengthy, however upon reading it, I am sure everyone will have a better understanding of that awful day in Mogadishu.

This is powerful stuff. A Soldier's Eye-View of "Blackhawk Down" The author of the below E-mail, Gerry Izzo, is currently a Captain at Comair. He flew one of the UH-60s on the mission that is depicted in the movie "Blackhawk Down." ================================== During the last few days many pilots have come up to me and asked me if I had seen the movie Blackhawk Down." I don't mind talking about the movie, and I welcome the opportunity to talk about the heroism and valor of my friends. I just wanted to post some comments here about the movie and my impressions. Also I wanted to try to answer some frequently asked questions. First of all, I and many of my friends that also flew on the mission thought that the movie was excellent! It is technically accurate and it is dramatically correct. In other words, the equipment, lingo and dialogue are all right on. By dramatically correct, I mean that it very effectively captured the emotions and tension that we all felt during the mission. It did this without being a cartoon, (like TOP GUN) or being over the top, (like FIREBIRDS). It's true that the screenwriters had to consolidate two or three people into one, but this was necessary because otherwise there would have been too many principle characters to keep track of. Also in the actual mission we had nearly 20 aircraft in the air that day. In the movie they had 4 Blackhawks and 4 "Little Birds". The unit could not afford to commit the actual number to the filming of the movie. However, through the magic of the cinema, they were able to give the impression of the real number. Our force mixture was as follows: Super 61 - Lead Blackhawk Star 41-44 Little Bird Assault Super 62 - Trail Blackhawk These aircraft made up the assault force. Their mission was to go into the buildings and capture the individuals who were the target of the day. Super 61 was shot down, killing both pilots. (They were CW4 Cliff Wolcott and CW3 Donovan Briley. The three of us shared a room at the airfield.) Star 41 landed at the crashsite and the pilot CW4 Keith Jones ran over and dragged two survivors to his aircraft and took off for the hospital. Keith reenacted his actions in the movie. Super 62 was the Blackhawk that put in the two Delta snipers, Sergeant First Class Randy Shughart and Master Sergeant Gary Gordon. They were inserted at crashsite #2. Shortly after Gary and Randy were put in Super 62 was struck in the fuselage by an antitank rocket. The whole right side of the aircraft was opened up and the sniper manning the right door gun had his leg blown off. The aircraft was able to make it out of the battle area to the port area where they made a controlled crash landing. (This is not depicted in the movie.) Next was the Ranger Blocking Force. This consisted of 4 Blackhawks: Super 64 (CW3 Mike Durant, CW4 Ray Frank) Super 65 (Me, Cpt Richard Williams) Super 66 (CW3 Stan Wood, CW4 Gary Fuller) Super 67 (CW3 Jeff Niklaus, CW2 Sam Shamp) . .The mission of the blocking force was to be inserted at the four corners of the objective building and to prevent any Somali reinforcements from getting through. In the movie there is a brief overhead shot of the assault. My aircraft is depicted in the lower left hand corner of the screen. This is the only part of the film where I come close to being mentioned. As the assault is completed, you hear the Blackhawks calling out of the objective area. When you hear, "...Super 65 is out, going to holding..." that's my big movie moment. There is also a quick shot of an RPG being shot at a hovering Blackhawk. I did have one maybe two fired at me, but I did not see them or the gunner. I only heard the explosions. We were not able to return fire, although some of the other aircraft did. Make no mistake. I am fully aware of my role in this mission. My job was the same as the landing boat drivers in "Saving Private Ryan." Get the troops in the right place in one piece. I am very proud of the fact that my crew and I were able to do that. After having done this in Grenada, Panama and Somalia, I can identify with the bombardiers of World War Two. You have to ignore all of the chaos that is going on around and completely concentrate on the tasks at hand. That is holding the aircraft as steady as possible so the Rangers can slide down the ropes as quickly and safely as possible. Okay, Okay, enough about me. Super 64 was shot down also with an RPG . .(Rocket Propelled Grenade). They tried to make it back to the airfield, but their tail rotor gave way about a mile out of the objective area. They went down in the worst part of bad guy territory. The dialogue for the movie appears to have been taken from the mission tapes as it is exactly as I remember it. (This was the hardest part of the movie for me to watch.) The actions on the ground are as described by Mike Durant, as he was the only one from the crew to survive the crash and the gun battle. It was here the Gary and Randy won their Posthumous Medals of Honor. Super 66 was called in at about 2000 hours to resupply the Rangers at the objective area. Some of the Rangers were completely out of ammunition and were fighting hand to hand with the Somali militia men. (Also not depicted in the movie). Stan and Gary brought their aircraft in so that they were hovering over the top of the Olympic Hotel with the cargo doors hanging out over the front door. In this way they were able to drop the ammo, water and medical supplies to the men inside. Stan's left gunner fired 1600 rounds of minigun ammo in 30 seconds. He probably killed between 8 to 12 Somali militia men. As Stan pulled out of the objective area, he headed to the airfield because his right gunner had been wounded, as had the two Rangers in the back who were throwing out the supplies. Once he landed, he discovered that he'd been hit by about 40-50 rounds and his transmission leaking oil like a sieve. Super 66 was done for the night. The final group of aircraft were the 4 MH6 gunships, and the command and control Blackhawk and the Search and Rescue 'Hawk'. They were: Barber 51-54 MH6's Super 63 C&C Super 68 SAR In the movie, the gunships are shown making only one attack. In fact, they were constantly engaged all night long. Each aircraft reloaded six times. It is estimated that they fired between 70 and 80,000 rounds of minigun ammo and fired a total 90 to 100 aerial rockets. They were the only thing that kept the Somalis from overrunning the objective area. All eight gunship pilots were awarded the Silver Star. Every one of them deserved it! Next is Super 68. The actions of this crew were very accurately portrayed. The only difference was that they were actually hit in the rotor blades by an RPG. This blew a semicircle out of the main rotor spar, but the blade held together long enough for them to finish putting in the medics and Rangers at the first crashsite. It was then that they headed to the airfield. What they did not know, was that their main transmission and engine oil cooler had been destroyed by the blast. As they headed to the airfield all 7 gallons of oil from the main rotor gearbox, and all 7 quarts from each engine was pouring out. They got the aircraft on the ground just as all oil pressures went to zero. They then shutdown, ran to the spare aircraft and took off to rejoin the battle. They were in the air just in time to affect the MEDEVAC of Super 62, which had landed at the seaport. The pilots of this aircraft were CW3 Dan Jollota, and MAJ Herb Rodriguez. Both men were later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Major Rodriguez is retired from the Army now and he teaches middle school with my wife in Clarksville, Tennessee. Finally there is the Command and Control Blackhawk, Super 63. In the back of this aircraft was my battalion commander, LTC Matthews, and the overall ground commander, LTC Harrell. In the movie, there is a scene where the men on the ground were begging for MEDEVAC. By this point in the battle we had 5 Blackhawks out of action, either shot down or shot up so much they couldn't fly anymore. Of the two assault force and four blocking force 'hawks', only myself and Super 67 were left. I fully expected LTC Harrell to send us in to try to get those men out. I jacked a round into the chamber of my pistol and my M16. I knew that the only way to do was to hover with one wheel balanced on the roof of the building. Then the Rangers would be able to throw the wounded in. I knew that we were going to take a lot of fire and I was trying to mentally prepare myself to do this while the aircraft was getting hit. My friends had all gone in and taken their licks and now I figured it was our turn. (Peer pressure is such a powerful tool if used properly.) Quite frankly, I really thought that we were at best going to get shot down, at worst I figured we were going to be killed. The way I saw it we had already lost 5 aircraft, what was 2 more? I had accepted this because at least when this was all over General Garrison would be able to tell the families that we had tried everything to get their sons, fathers or husbands out. We were even willing to send in our last two helicopters. Fortunately for me LTC Harrell realized that the time for helicopters had passed. The decision was made to get the tanks and armored personnel carriers to punch through to the objective area. Once again, the dialogue in the movie is verbatim. What you don't hear is me breathing a sigh of relief! I remembered thinking that maybe I was going to see the sunrise after all. I guess I got a little carried away. I really didn't mean to write this much. People ask me if this movie has given me 'flashbacks'. I don't think you can call them flashbacks if that day has never been out of my mind. I hope that when you do see the movie it will fill you with pride and awe for the Rangers that fought their hearts out that day. Believe me, they are made of the same stuff as those kids at Normandy Beach. When 1LT Tom DiTomasso, the Ranger platoon leader on my aircraft, told me that we did a fantastic job, I couldn't imagine ever receiving higher praise than that. I love my wife and children, but the greatest thing I've ever done is to be a Nightstalker Pilot with Task Force Ranger on 3-4 Oct 1993. Thank you for reading this. I look forward to answering any and all questions anyone may have about the movie or the actual battle. I just thought that this might fill in some of the blanks. Thank you again. . .Capt. Gerry Izzo(Super65) "NSDQ" Nightstalkers Don't Quit