Not a lot of people know that... how to upset French ATC & possibly yourself!

[captplaystation]

Flying in Bordeaux UIR the other day I heard the tail end of a conversation between the controller and a Biz- Jet?( N??? )The crux of the matter was that he had Idented without being asked to. After it had quietened down curiosity got the better of me & I asked "Monsieur C Eading" what the problem had been.It seems that when you Ident (at least in Bordeaux airspace) the ATC equivalent of TCAS is either inhibited/visually blocked(I hope/assume for only a few seconds).As the controller said " a lot of your colleagues (Ryanair) do it when they come on freq/are given a new tpndr code & it ees noaht ah goood eye dee ah". If you imagine they lose their safety net just as they greet you with their usual "good mohaning turn right 25 degrees for traffic" you can zee hees poyahnt ah theenk ( with apologies to that excellent laugh " a year in the merde").Perhaps some of us are too used to the Italian PUSH ident on every chg of freq/code?

[karrank]

"Squawk Ident" used to be the standard way to identify an aircraft, but is now only a backup when there is an allocated SSR code. You only push that button when instructed to by ATC. When I fly I only push it if asked by ATC, and they haven't yet. I too have felt the almost irresistable urge to push the only button on the dashboard I'm not supposed to unless told to, but there is no advantage to pressing it at any other time. There is no need to press it at any other time of the flight, in combination with any other action or in response to any instruction other than "squawk ident."

When I have told an aircraft not answering me "Replies not recieved SQ ID" and some other spud does it instead it can be bewildering.

When I have told somebody to SQ ID and some other spud is doing so nearby there is potential for me mis-identify the aircraft being naughty as the one requesting a service, so the vectors around traffic, etc, are not going to help.

If I suspect a pair of aircraft are squawking each other's codes (has happened to me) the best way to resolve it is to get one to SQ ID. If some other spud is SQ ID without me asking the problem just gets bigger and more confusing.

You don't have to attract my attention when making an initial call to the sector, your symbol looks different to me than the ones that have already called. There is no advantage to you SQ ID when calling me.

I wouldn't personally whinge to a pilot on VHF about it, if we noticed such a trend we make an 'event report' which results in our airline contact saying to the airline "please stop doing this." And no, it does not result in a fine, as our international pr disgrace Dick Smith was bleating on the radio about this morning
:yuk:

[Loose rivets]

Yea, it's a funny thing about that little red button (or booooton if you happen to be in school at Toulouse )

When it was first invented, my old captains used to press it at any opportunity...and as hard as they could, leaving a deep indentation in their pinkies. They just could not believe that such a little button could do so much.

[ou Trek dronkie]

Quite obviously, captplaystation and loose rivets are completly fluent in French. Wish I was !

oTd

[Loose rivets]

Mmmm...one almost took the bait there.

[sky9]

I suspect the habit started some years ago when some ATC units only had systems that identified the first 2 digits on the box, the request then was "squawk 5400 ident". If I remember Rhine was one of the last to get updated.

[klink]

LHR departure; 1st thing asked to do is ident. Roma Radar same thing. Indeed, why?

[ou Trek dronkie]

Excuzez-moi Monsieur,

He ! he ! he! he! he !

OtD

[Say again s l o w l y]

This comes up in the NOTAMs all the time, ATC asking you NOT to squawk ident when changing frequency.

I've always waited to be asked, even in Italy.

[FlyFree]

On the same note, am flying alot in Italy, and have noticed that the Italian ATC say, when thet want a squak change " squak Alfa xxxx"

Now, this makes you think......Do they want us to turn off mode " C" ?? ;)

[5milesbaby]

Klink:
LHR departure; 1st thing asked to do is ident. Roma Radar same thing. Indeed, why?
At LHR and LGW amongst other UK airfields the IDENT is required for the computer systems at West Drayton and Swanwick as the computer recognises the assigned code, finds the appropriate flight plan details in the system and "DM"s them (DM=Departure Message). This produces live times for the controllers and initiates the Swanwick electronics, paper strips and sends an ABI (Advance Boundary Information) to the next FIR region if applicable. West Drayton also use the IDENT to actually identify (validate) the mode Alpha with the associated flight details they have which can then be used in turn by approved units.

Rarely Swanwick will ask for an IDENT on first contact with Swanwick when you are transferred from an adjacent FIR unit. This is hopefully normally during the night and is a good indication that our computer has been turned off for its monthly cleanout and update so our flight details are all passed manually and therefore need validating and verifying.

So quite an important thing really and very annoying when the button pushers push without being asked!! :ok:

[Capt H Peacock]

Indeed more generally, the controller wants to identify what he believes to be you. It won't help very much if every man and his dog are pressing IDENT to sound 'cool'.

SSR transponders should be operated only in accordance with ATC instructions, UK AIP refers.

[klink]

@5milesbaby: Thanks for the info!:ok:

[karrank]

" squak Alfa xxxx"

Now, this makes you think......Do they want us to turn off mode " C" ?? I'm not terribly sure of why this is so, but if you have a Mode 3 transponder it goes in the FPL as "A", if you have Mode 3A you put in "C" and everybody refers to it (perhaps incorrectly) as "mode A" & "mode C". I think your Italian mate means "squawk mode 3 alpha xxxx" but left the 3 out??? Is not required.

Our instructions in Oz say "squawk xxxx" and if the need arises to discuss altitude reporting "squawk altitude" or "stop altitude squawk". For some reason many (mostly youngsters) just say "code xxxx" which grates on me (morosely listening from adjacent consoles) as the term "squawk" has a proud tradition going back to WWII and long may it remain!

[Loose rivets]

WWII? That's interesting. Please elucidate.

[chuks]

If you check your history books I believe you will find that transponders got their start as the 'IFF' (Identification Friend or Foe) system used by the Allies during WWII.

'Alfa' refers to the numerical four-digit code so that saying 'Squawk Alfa XXXX,' is redundant. That one is squawking Charlie (Altitude) is taken as given unless specifically asked to de-select it.

Two things that used to give me the pip: Being asked by controllers to squawk 'Alfa XXXX,' and co-pilots pushing the ident button on handover to Radar without a request to do that.

Oh, and failing to report leaving an assigned Flight Level, because 'They have us on Radar.' One day we got a close look at an MD-11 because of an assumption by ATC that he had left his level in the hold without making that report when he was actually playing by the rules! His readback of the next lower assigned level had been casually taken as the required report of vacating that level. That time my co-pilot made a very good save!