Your opinions on 'Full cost carriers serving from UK to Hong Kong'

[Jennifer888]

Hi all,

Im at my final year in uni studying Tourism management. My dissertation is on 'product differentiation on full cost carriers serving from UK to Hong Kong'
Please feel free to tell me your views/expereinces of airlines you have travelled with to Hong Kong.
This would be of great help!!!! :D :ok:

[OLBA18]

Jennifer - I think the normal term is "full service airlines" and "low cost airlines". In any case, my order of preference in airline choice would be

1. BA - F class is excellent, J class has a full flat bed - sleep the whole way, Traveller Plus is a good option to pay for gives you bigger seat than economy and only 8 across instead of 10 across - a pleasant ride, economy has tv screens but just as uncomfortable as any other airline. Never really had a bad flight - in my experience good crew, good online checkin, good timekeeping and excellent One world Frequent flyer program.

2. Cathay Pacific - J class not easy to sleep for long periods as the bed slopes downhill, however excellent for their daytime flights as service is very good and TV's are on demand with stop,fast forward, rewind etc. Economy is smart and crew efficient but seat is just a uncomfortable for 12 - 14 hours as all other airlines on the route. Excellent one world frequent flyer program.

3. VS - Premium economy just like BA but I have never been able to match the price that BA offer on it, so end up buying BA. Economy seat - see as above comments for BA and CX however it does have VOD (video on demand) If I was chosing economy I would like to choose VS but don't because they are not in one world frequent flyer so no Asia miles credits. They have their own FF but you can only earn miles through traveling and not by spending on your Visa card etc so miles take too long to accrue. (with One world you can earn Asia Miles in a variety of non airline ways)

4. LH/KL/AF all the same in economy, decent enough seat but no VOD and you have to connect through FRA/AMS or CDG. (Do a search on Oasis Airlines starting next year and hoping to compete with these three airlines)

5. Emirates - regrettably never again in economy ! They have 10 across on a 777 instead of the normal 9 and the seat, and pitch, was well below the standard of all the above airlines. Also the flight goes through BKK and DXB making a huge journey in utter discomfort. Maybe their business class is good and maybe the 380 will be special but the 777 and 330's they have now are configured for sardines!


In summary for product differentiation in economy there's very little between the top three (BA/CX/VS) and they mostly use pricing to attract passengers. BA and CX are ahead of the game here because they also have asia miles advertising for non airline miles accumulation which then get used on BA/CX.
For premium economy on BA and VS they use pricing and description of the seat and it's higher comfort to get passengers. Most people who buy these seats travel regularly and so are on these airlines email/frequent flyer lists so direct email advertising works well here.
For business class the top three airlines all promote their individual bed seats and it's comfort etc with not much discounting on price. The remaining airlines promote their Business seats through price discounting.
For first class on BA and CX this is advertised without reference to the actual product i.e the seat is never mentioned nor is the style of service pushed. What is advertised is a concept of exclusivity and style i.e an allure - the price is never mentioned. These seats do sell on the route and higher tier members are sometimes upgraded from J class so it's a good loyalty perk as well.

Good Luck

[OZcabincrew]

jennifer888,

i would forget all of those and fly QF (Qantas). i was talking to a friend who recently came back from the UK. They flew from LHR to SIN with BA and QF from SIN to Australia and she vowed never to fly BA again on long sectors, rediculous!!!!!!! but would fly QF again as she's flown long sectors with QF before and had no problems.

Oz

[FFHKG]

Just to correct an inaccuracy - certain EK flights operate direct from HKG to DXB non-stop. Breakfast-time out of HKG and into UK airports in time for dinner.

QF operate HKG/LHR direct (non-stop) a couple of days per week.

LX operate HKG/UK via ZUR daily with a A340... excellent service with good onward connections from ZUR to LHR and MAN ~ unlike some "high profile" carriers, they delay connecting flights if inbound to ZUR either way is late.....baggage as well as passengers always connect (BA take note as you have freqently failed to connect my bags within a 120 min slot at LHR... LX manage this in one quarter of the time at ZUR!!!!)

[Skylion]

London- Hong Kong is a very interesting case study. The on board product is just one part of it and the nonstop carriers are probably much of a muchness overall, though particularly if you are travelling Economy and want pleasant cabin service then Cathay pretty consistently beat the very variable caucasian carriers ( including Qantas) who struggle with variable CSDs and Industrial Relations and perceived morale and style issues.
For choice of schedule timings and spread of departures in both directions, Cathay wins hands down. Cathay offers departures from LHR from early afternoon until late evening and ex Hong Kong in early morning, early afternoon and two at night. BA's 3 eastbound services are clumped together with only 3hrs 10 mins between the first departure at 1855 and the last at 2205. Westbound the choice is even worse with just 2 hrs 15 mins between the first departure at 2325 and the last at 0040 and only 20 mins between the first and the second. One stretched A 380 could accomodate the lot!
If you live outside London, then the Emirates services out of Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow offer a better transfer at Dubai than London ( as do KLM at Amsterdam and Lufthansa at Frankfurt) and and if you do live in London choice of early and late departures in both directions.
The battle is therefore about a lot more than just seating, inflight entertainment and cabin service.

[Pax Vobiscum]

I haven't flown Virgin to the Far East (only USA) but assuming the services are broadly the same, then Upper Class is somewhere between F & J class on BA (some VS enthusiasts rate it as better than BA F) and the pricing is broadly the same as BA Club fares. So if you've got someone prepared to fund a club fare, I'd certainly take a close look at Virgin.

[no, no, no]

didn't bmi mention a few years ago they were interested in serving HKG - but couldn't because of not being able to overfly Russia?

If this changes do you think they will look at it again? Do you think there is room for another airline? STAR would probably like it to get a direct LON link?

But isn't there a chance of fewer people travelling to HKG now that China will probably open up? And if someone started Guanghzou would this steal traffic from HKG? Never been ther myself but always had an interest in the area.

[manintheback]

OLBA18 gives a good account of the pros and cons but I would slightly differ in the ratings depending on class flown.

Emirates seem to be consistent in much lower pricing on 'headline fares' but the reality is their First Class equates to a business class without the flat bed component (at least on the ones I have flown) and the business class in terms of comfort isnt really any better than Virgin Premium Economy. (Better food and drinks tho). So you pays your money and get the service accordingly.

Virgin Premium Economy usually costs more than BAs WTP+ BUT the seat comfort, legroom and space are far better - not having to share arm rests for example.

In terms of Economy Virgin falls well below that of BA and Cathay simply because of its reduced leg room against those two. However Virgins onboard service is consistently very good. My choice would be Virgin Upper even against BA First class (may as well save the money for no difference at all in service and maybe a slight perception that the luxury isnt quite as good), and definitely for Club

In the premium economy cabins it really depends on the difference in price, Virgin are worth a little more but only a little.

If Emirates had a business class deal close to the economy ticket prices I would go with them IF i wanted to stop-off for a day or so
on the way. Otherwise I couldnt be bothered with the longer journey and aggro of a change.

[newswatcher]

manintheback, interested on your comments on leg room in economy, since most sites have all three airlines showing same pitch. Are you speaking from experience of all three? I have recently flown to the US with BA and, whilst not generous, legroom(747) adequate for 6ft 2in. Haven't flown VS since '02, when I seem to remember much the same, and have never flown Cathay.

[manintheback]

Virgin say between 30" and 32". On their 74s I have only ever got the 30", whilst that may only be 1 inch less than BA - after 10 or more hours in the air, every little bit helps.

[Globaliser]

Jennifer888: My dissertation is on 'product differentiation on full cost carriers serving from UK to Hong Kong'
Please feel free to tell me your views/expereinces of airlines you have travelled with to Hong Kong.First, I think you need to decide whether you are going to confine yourself to airlines that fly non-stop from the UK to Hong Kong, or whether you are going to include those which include connecting flights.

As has already been pointed out, the non-stops are operated by BA, CX, QF and VS.

But once you're into the territory of connecting flights, you are including a large proportion of the world's major carriers, because many of them can offer a London -> Hong Kong routing with only one connection, even if some are more theoretical than others (LHR-LAX-HKG, for example).

However, AFAIK there are currently no UK (excl London) -> Hong Kong non-stop flights, so you may by default have to include connections if you do mean to survey all UK -> Hong Kong airlines.

And that's before you look at interline connections such as LHR-(BR)-BKK-(CX)-HKG, just to take one example that offers another premium economy product on the long sector.

In addition, are you surveying all travel classes?

Of the airlines that have already been mentioned, I can offer some relevant recent experience on BA, EK and QF.

BA:

Economy: The product is solid. I like the unusual but effective headrest "wing" which hinges downwards rather than inwards, which means that it will not unfold under lateral pressure from one's head. The choice of movies (on individual TVs) is usually neither exciting or imaginative. Headsets are free, as is the small amenity pack containing eyeshades, slipper socks and toothbrush. Meals are usually average to good; there are some dishes which are more interesting than average airline food, eg the ex-LHR curries.

World Traveller Plus (premium economy): This has become my preferred cabin on long-haul BA to HKG. The seat is significantly better; it's much more than a slightly bigger economy seat. The "hard" service elements are almost identical to economy - the extras really amount to a newspaper and a glass wineglass, and being served first. But the main benefit of WT+ for me is that the small cabin (separated from economy by a bulkhead, not just a curtain) usually feels rather quieter, calmer and more sophisticated than the economy cabin, where there is a lot of tension and stress, often from infrequent flyers.

Club World (business): I find that the bed is only just wide enough for me, although being horizontal (not just flat) is very good. I hear rumours that this is one of the things which is specifially being changed when the next generation Club World product is brought in next year (2006). I haven't been favoured with enough trips in this class to give any reliable views about the food and drink, although it is nice that pre-departure champagne has been brought back at most departure points.

Cabin crew: Can be variable; they are sometimes rather reserved but it's rare to find crew who won't warm to a bit of a chat. Enthusiastic crews will make quite a fuss of business class passengers, especially if it's not a busy flight.

Lounges: The BA departure lounges at LHR (for those who have access privileges) are some of the better airline lounges, although they won't be counted as the best in the world. They include spa treatments (mostly massages of various kinds), although demand usually outstrips supply. The joint BA/QF departure lounge in HKG is perfectly adequate but it appears that most if not all BA and QF passengers who are entitled to use it will also be admitted to CX's lounges either by entitlement or by concession. The CX lounges are much better than the BA/QF lounge and very highly rated generally. BA offers an arrivals lounge at LHR, which is very useful for anyone who doesn't have to rush off immediately to home or work - shower, clothes pressing, spa treatments, internet access, and a full cooked breakfast which is better than anything which could be served on an aircraft.

EK:

Economy: I second the comment about the economy layout in EK's 777s. I would not willingly set foot on another one if there were any alternative. The EK trip that I did (not to HKG, and it was three years ago now) was mercifully one on which I could select the A330 for three out of four sectors, and the 777 sector was the first. It was a poor introduction to the airline, which the good cabin service did not make up for. Food and drink were of good quality, and the in-flight entertainment was also good. No amenity packs, only headphones. The cabin crew were rather plastic and mechanical.

QF:

Economy: I find the QF economy seat more comfortable than the BA seat. This is probably due entirely to the way that I personally fit into the seat. It is a very slim seat, which gives a little extra knee room for the same pitch. (For these reasons, I would choose QF economy over BA economy if all other things were equal, which they are on my Australia runs but not to HKG, for which QF's ex-LHR departure time is extremely inconvenient.) Main meals are usually not exciting, but QF issue a snack pack for the long interval between meals. Movie choices - also on individual TVs - tend to be slightly better than BA, but only slightly. There are similar free amenities as on BA.

Business: The new Skybed is a great improvement over the previous QF business class Dreamtime seat. It is laid out conventionally, compared to BA's fore-and-aft layout, but at an angle. Many people, including me, tend to slide down the slope - so I find I have to use the perpendicular footplate to stop this, almost standing on it to stop the slide. But it is comfortably wide - one armrest disappears downwards when the seat is reclined flat. Catering is more interesting than BA catering, and the headphones are now supposedly of a noise-reducing type.

Cabin crew: This has perenially been one of QF's weaker service elements. There are some crew members who are very good, but there is a certain Aussie manner that is great on the ground but doesn't translate well into an airline cabin, and this is displayed too often. QF is still the only airline I have flown on which I have seen a cabin crew member having a shouting match with a passenger over the manner of address adopted by the passenger to the crew member. The newer Asian recruits are generally better, although they also generally have less personality.

Lounges: QF uses BA lounges at LHR, and shares the BA/QF lounge at HKG. I don't know whether passengers arriving in LHR off QF from HKG have access to the BA arrivals lounge, although passengers arriving off QF flights from Australia certainly do.

For accuracy, QF now flies LHR-HKG four times per week, going to daily from the beginning of the northern summer schedule IIRC. The problem for me is the 1225 departure from LHR - that just doesn't work for me. Otherwise I think I'd be on QF every time I went to HKG in economy.

[christep]

I'm fortunate that I fly this route nearly always in F, with the vast majority being on CX and a few BAs. I haven't yet had the chance to fly QF F on this route, though I have on others.

I choose to fly CX because of its AVOD, good food and wine, and consistently excellent service from the FAs. Having said that I find that the BA seat is more comfortable than CX's as a seat, but not overridingly so. CX has nice duvets and sleepsuits; it also has caviar and smoked salmon from the trolley. BA's service on a good day is as good as CX's but they can also have really dreadful days, which just don't seem to happen on CX.

Each airline has the best lounges at their home port. CX's Wing and Pier are excellent - although the value of the Haven (restaurant) in the Wing is less when flying F than when flying Y (and getting in through Oneworld emerald status). The main problem with the BA lounges at LHR is that they get horribly crowded at times, although T1 now is better than T4 previously in the F lounge at the times the HKG flights go. Even though paid-F at LHR used to get you in the Concorde Room when HKG went from T4 I have seen that crowded too.

By far the best thing about the BA lounges is the Spa. Steam cubicles in the shower rooms and massages available, although waiting times can be long.

The new Games Room at The Wing should be of value to those into that sort of thing.

Hope that helps.

[PAXboy]

OLBA18 With regards to Virgin Atlantic having a credit card as a points 'feeder'. In the UK, they do have one operated via MBNA that generates points into your Flying Club account and it works well.

Jennifer888 As for the route, I think that all the main points are already stated. The three carriers that run direct to the UK all know each other's product inside out and the products are near identical because the market is mature. Consequently, they differentiate on things other than the product! These include: Price; Seasonal Discounts; FFMs; Add on flights/bonus etc.

The factors that make a person choose one of the three carriers from the others are the same for any route and have been discussed here on many occasions. They will include some/all of the following (non-exhaustive) list: Price Corporate agreement Timing of flight Frequent Flyer Miles Previous experience with that carrier Personal reccomendation from others
Cultural imperatives

Therefore, once you have described these carriers and their products - you cannot say much more about them! Looking for something to dissertate upon(!) then it may be more beneficial to look at the culture and history of the carriers and the market share they have - both percentage and culturally. Because, I suggest that your proposed title: product differentiation on full cost carriers serving from UK to Hong Kong is not really a subject, because the product differences are very small but the cultural differences are large!