FO's paying to fly?

[cfimei]

I'm guessing that most of the airlines asking for FO's to pay for line flying are probably based in the far east. Does anybody have details on whose doing this and where?

[portsharbourflyer]

The Far East is currently showing signs of a pilot shortage, especially in China and India, so paying for line training isn't something I have seen advetised in the Far East, but it is something that is happening in Europe. I believe Astraeus, Wizz Air associated with Bond / Storm aviation run self sponsored type rating schemes in which you can buy 100 hours of line training on top the type rating. However US based Eagle Jet also run similar schemes; whereby you pay for line experience on top the type rating. It is possible (though this is an assumption) that some of these companies may be placing people on these schemes with Far Eastern based airlines.

[FFP]

If this is true, I can't believe it !

Only in aviation can you find professionals paying an employer to do a job !

Is it just me or is this all wrong ?

And who are the people paying it ? The same who whinge about poor conditions ? I hope not.

[portsharbourflyer]

Take a look in the back of Flight International and you will see two adverts advertising line training (Bond and Eagle Jet).

It would seem there are a reasonable number of applicants for these schemes.

[snake80]

can you tell me more about line training of Bond?Is it available for B737?

[ricky-godf]

Hi Snake,
Bond Aviation Solutions, in cooperation with Astraeus, offers the B737 type-rating and line training.
MCC+JOC at £4000 + VAT
B737TR at £16,250 + VAT
100hrs line training at £9000 + VAT

The training is provided in LGW (groundschool) and Cranebank for the simulator.
Line training is based in LGW, MAN, Exeter or Birmingham.
Send me a PM for further infos.

Regards

[scroggs]

The training organisations offering line training for a fee are answering a demand. That demand comes from those wannabes who feel that such training may give them an advantage when it comes to seeking employment.

FFP, be careful with your insinuation that the training organisations concerned are airlines receiving free or paying labour; the provision of such training is certainly done for a profit (it also provides a means of keeping a training department available and occupied), but it is not done as a substitute for recruiting legitimate FOs. There have certainly been schemes which were more than a little dodgy, thoug I'm not aware of any in UK. Bond/Astraeus is not one of them; several Pprune Wannabes have benefitted from their expertise through the Pprune/Astraeus assisted training scheme. We do not associate ourselves with disreputable organisations!

Scroggs

[FFP]

Fair enough.

But I still don't understand the concept of 100 hrs "line training". So this is done without fare paying passengers ?
If not, then the airline involved must be benefitting from not "employing" a FO.

I must put my hands up and confess to not knowing the ins and outs of it all and if I have got it wrong, then I apologise.

The concept of gaining time on a jet to make you more appealing to an employer is fair enough, but do employers count 100 hrs as experience enough ? I thought 500 hrs was the benchmark (and surely no one pays for that amount of time ?)

[scroggs]

The definition of line training is that it is done on line - with passengers and/or freight on board. Can you imagine how much it would cost to provide line training on empty aircraft? It would make the costs of an Oxford ATPL pale in comparison! Think in terms of £5,000 - £10,000 per flying hour...

100 hours (about 40 sectors) is enough to learn what you need to know to be moderately competent - and more than enough for any training organisation to judge whether or not you should continue. Any more than that and I think those who claim this is cheap labour would have a point! 500 hours, even if it were morally acceptable, would be prohibitive in cost for the student. In any case, it would be time and money wasted; any decent airline will wish to give new employees training in their own SOPs and ways of doing things, which will be done in their own line training programme - albeit possibly a truncated one for those who have done an SSTR.

Whether you like it or not, SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training. My concern is that students get value for money in that training, and that the training itself is valued by the industry. There are doubts on both those issues with some schemes, but that is no reason to rubbish them all.

Scroggs

[Meeb]

SSTRs are a feature of the speculative flying training scene, and are actually no more difficult to justify than IR or MCC training.

Speculative flying scene, you sound like a salesman from a TRTO!

Have to disagree with you 100%. Some things you write are interesting, but you too have been sucked into believing that the 'pay for type ratings' is the only way forward for the industry, it is not. It exists because young wananbes have created the demand, it does not make it right, and it certainly does not justify it like you suggest.

This industry is f*****d... so say quite a few of us who have been around for a while. Youngsters with too much money, no idea about what the 'profession' is or was, and PPRuNe sliding towards making this outrage accetable. Its time for PPRuNe to stand up against it, but it will not due certain people involved supporting it due personal interest.

There are 2 groups at fault, those who pay, and those who collect and grin all the way to the bank... w***kers.

[BAP]

Hallo guys.

This is not the first time we see this discussion going on here on pprune, but it certainly doesn’t make it less interesting…

I will like to come with my point of view, since I am one of the “wannabes” who has bought a B737 type rating….

And first of all I will like to say that, I do agree with you. It is wrong, that you pay for your own rating! But why did I do it???
Yes simply because it is almost impossible to find a job in the GA business now a days - as a low timer! Okay there is still sightseeing flying etc. but the truth is that, these jobs will only last for a few months and you won’t accumulate more than maybe 50 hours on a season – So now you have 250 hours total, and then what? Yes you could wait another 8 moths, until the season starts again… And maybe after a few years you would have 400-500 VFR hours on a SEP… Still not enough, to get anywhere, as it looks now and has been looking for the past few years.
And trust me on this, because I know both former sightseeing pilots, experienced instructors who have bought a rating, simple because the good old career path isn’t present no more. And all are very skilled pilots, with great personalities.

I recall some of my former flight instructors telling us how they became airline pilots. And yes, they did some sightseeing flights and maybe some time on a small turboprop and was then hired by an airline. And to be honest, I really believe this would be a great way to start a pilot career, but again it is not possible, and why not. Yes okay you can still get the sightseeing job, but getting a job on a small turboprop requires you just as many hours as the big airlines requires, somewhere between 500 and 3000, with some experience on multi engine aircrafts… And how do you get that??

And if any of you experienced pilots out there, who doesn’t believe what I am saying then take yourself some time to look around in the business, and should find some jobs where a lowtimer with 200-300 hours total would qualify then please post here on Pprune…

Okay I believe I have made my point here… So back to the SSTR. Ask you self this question, and assume that you have just finished your training, and the job situation is as I just wrote. “Would you just sit and wait for 1,2,3 or who knows how many years before you get a chance of being employed without the rating?” Yes somebody does find jobs without having to pay for anything, but they do belong to the minority, and as a matter of fact there are more and more low timers giving up there dream because they can’t find a job, and they can’t afford a type rating, and this is not something I make up. And then they have lost not only a dream, but also a lot of money…
So continue with the question: “So now you hear that there is a very good chance of being employed on a large jet, if you pay for you own rating, hence you get a very good job and you get a chance to pay you loan back…” So what do you do??? If there are any of you experienced guys out there, knowing what to do, then please tell us!!!!

Why do we have to pay for our own rating, well because the airlines have decided to, NOT the low timers!! But can you blame the airlines – No not really, they are going through rough times, and if they have a chance of saving money they will do it. That’s called business!
Who is to blame then??? In my opinion it is the experienced pilots, you are the one sitting in FL330 smiling, and most of you don’t give a dame about your future colleagues. You should be the first to say, “ We don’t want our new colleagues to pay for there own ratings, stop hiring low timers with ratings, and select the ones who are skilled and who has the right personality for the company – And then offer them a job with a bond”
The experienced pilots are the only ones who can help us low timers, no one else! Some companies do just that, like for example Thomsonfly… And apparently low time pilots who is giving a chance are doing just fine onboard a big jet, or a small turboprop for that matter!!!

So stop blaming low timers, because we don’t have a choice. We are just doing whatever we can, in order to get a job! And if we have to pay for both the type rating and the line training we do it, not because we want to, but because that is our only option! Most of us have increased our loans in order to pay for this, so it is definitely not something we enjoy!!!

And what have happened now? Yes now a B737 rating is starting to become a part of the initial training and because of that, TRTOs are popping up everywhere, advertising for B737/A320 ratings. – Not because an airline requires it, but because that’s a way of earning money… So now there are so many low time pilots with a B737/A320 rating, that the rating simply isn’t enough. Because now the companies see an opportunity to get line trained pilots, instead of just selecting the skilled ones with the right personality… And what can the low time pilot do about it??? Yes, we can pay for the line training, and hope that this will help us. And yet again, the experienced pilots are the only ones who can stop it… Because low timers just do whatever it takes, otherwise you might never get a job… And don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the orther end…

And again, I am against paying for my own type rating as well as line training but I am also against that you have to pay for you education in the first place, because what makes a lawyer more important than a pilot??? And the lawyer doesn’t pay for his education…(Denmark) Again I believe that you should select the qualified people, and only educate the number of pilots required for the industry…

But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay??

That was my opinion, I hope some of you experienced pilots out there would like to comment it.
/BAP

[scroggs]

Meeb you are quite wrong. At no stage have I suggested that "pay for type ratings is the only way forward for the industry". In fact, on several occasions I have spoken out against the idea. However, SSTRs exist, and are a perfectly legitimate offering, and we at Pprune have a duty to see that they are discussed without resort to the kind of emotional language you adopt.

As for your insinuation that somehow I am involved in some sort of SSTR scam and stand to benefit from people taking up SSTRs with any organisation, I suggest you retract it sharpish.

Scroggs

[powdermonkey]

Hi Scroggs,

Can you tell me the rough cost of paying for such line training? Would love to avoid the cost but if it is an issue in the future, I will do it should there be no alternative.....
However, does this mean that paticular airline will take you on should you perform well during that time, or is it simply like any other rating/licence, after which it's up to you to find employment.
Also, is this line training inclusive of type rating or do you do that first?
Thanks

[scroggs]

I am not a spokesman for these schemes, and a search here will reveal quite a lot of the information you want. I understand that the TR+ line training will cost around £18-25k from most of the companies involved. Some may hold out the carrot of a position with the host airline 'for suitable candidates', but I wouldn't bet the farm on that. If you decide to go this route, you are contracting for a type rating plus a number of hours' line training and nothing more.

Whether such training will give you an advantage in the job market isn't easy to say, but I can tell you that plenty of Pprune's wannabes have been employed in the last few months without such training. My gut feeling is that they are far less advantageous than they once were.

Scroggs

[747 Downwind]

Meeb,

I have to agree with Scroggs' qoute: can you not see that FTOs like Oxford, Cabair exist because there are people willing to pay for their license. If everybody refused to pay for any training then all airlines would have to start funding cadets. TRTOs are merely an extension of the service provided by FTOs. You may not like it, nor may some of your little friends, but that's the way it is! Your utopian vision of morality within a contemporary commercial environment such as aviation is lovely to hear, but it ain't going to happen.. you sound like a ranting Socialist (note: no political stance against socialism intended):E

For your information it is not just 'youngsters' with money.. there are many 'elders' with money too both at FTOs and TRTOs. It doesn't matter what the profession was about because wannabes are not going to experience that (not the current forum we are in), those days (sadly) are gone. From a number of your posts it appears to me that you have a difficulty with excepting change and possibly dwell on the past. There is nothing wrong with reminisence, nostalgia and the like, but exceptance is hugely important. I don't like the way the area I have lived in has changed.. the guns, crime etc but I have to except that is the way it is.. I do not have the power to change matters and you too do not have the power to alter the way aviation is changing.. deal with it.

Oh yeah.. cheers for castigating myself and others as w**kers, real mature mate. I leave my fighting talk for the streets and the pub, this is supposed to be a professional civilised forum. Try to control yourself.

Powder monkey.. pm me if you need any info, ditto to what Scroggs said, there is an evident risk factor involved, I can give you a rough estimate of the success rates

747 Downwind:ok:

[cfimei]

Uhmmm.. well thanks to everybody that's contributed to this topic so far... shame that sensitive subjects like this tend to provoke arguments rather than address the main point - which sadly I see hasn't yet been forthcoming! If anybody has definitive information please do post it :) Thanks.

[OBK!]

BAP,

But, I want to fly for a living, so what choice do I have, but to pay??

Paying to fly is not flying for a living, there's no living involved! It also encourages the majoirty of other airlines to introduce schemes like this and in my opinion will probably reduce pay in the long run as more an more wannabes offer to sacrifice huge amounts of hard earned money.

[herta]

I would really be amused to know what all the so called good moralists would do now if they won 2 million euros at the lottery...?

Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!!

By the way, if it is true that in some countries lawyers do not pay for training, so much for medical doctors...., they have to pay for their practice, their professional insurance, their updates... (yearly congress...).
Does anyone has a idea how much cost a dentist practice ? a lawyer practice ? You could argue, yes, but he can sell it back. One cannot sell a 737 TR back.

My father baught 10 year ago a CPA practice 200 000 euros, do did one of his friend. After 2 year the friends practice lost 70% of its clients....

[littco]

My Girkfriend is a lawyer and she has just been offered partnership in a large corporate firm, However do to so, she has to buy herself in at a cost of £35,000!

Now if she doesn't she wont get made a partner and she wont get the big money that goes with partnership.

So it seems that pilots aren't the only ones that need to pay for their future.. Personally I don't think it's any different than any other industry..

[BAP]

Hi OBK.

Paying to fly is not flying for a living, there's no living involved! It also encourages the majoirty of other airlines to introduce schemes like this and in my opinion will probably reduce pay in the long run as more an more wannabes offer to sacrifice huge amounts of hard earned money.
I certainly do understand you point of you, but you haven’t been giving me any answer to my question. If not paying, then what??

Paying to fly is absolutely wrong, but that’s not something that I am planning to do for the rest of my career, that is simply just something I would consider if something doesn’t happen soon. Because right now I am having a B737 type rating, but no job. And since more and more companies won’t settle with the rating alone, I only have two options. The first one is to wait, and for every day that goes I become less interesting to the companies - and the proficiency check is absolutely not for free either. And the last option is to buy the line training, and start flying, and most likely I will get a job after this…

I am not making the rules I am just following them. Who has made the rules?? - The experienced pilots/Airlines, not me, I am new in the business!

And again - don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the other end…
I would really be amused to know what all the so called good moralists would do now if they won 2 million euros at the lottery...?

Let me gess.... TR and line training ?!!! Good question???

Here is a good example of where the aviation industry is going. http://www.solid-airline.nl/fo.jpg
Frustrating - yes, but what can I do about it?? I can refuse to pay for my own rating and line training, but then I might as well get myself another career, because these are the rules now.. Unless somebody inside the companies do something about it!

Concerning the lawyer/doctor or whatever. Paying for a practice is not the same as paying for an education. I believe it’s comparable with a pilot buying his own plane, to start a company.
But I do agree that it is a matter of paying for a good future, which is very comparable to paying for TR + line training.

/BAP

[haughtney1]

Ive waded into this before, and for those of you who dont know, I am very much against the idea of the SSTR, personally I believe its the thin end of the wedge.
The problem as I see it is the expectation of leaving training, and then sliding seamlessly into a nice shiney Jet; not only is that an unrealistic expectation, its proving to be far from the reality in the vast majority of cases.
What we need here is a reality check..am I wrong in noticing that a large proportion of wannabes on here seem to think its perfectly reasonable to hop on a complex type without any further experience?
If you think it is..go ask some of the Easy guys about flying and line training some of the low hour cadets they employ, you'll find the reality is far removed from the hype.
In many ways today has never been a better time to be a low-timer, plenty of entry level and Lo-Co's are recruiting and a heck of a lot of them are bonding crews, rather than offering cash upfront, better yet turbo-prop operators are back in vogue, which is a far better road to gaining experience..than going straight into the deep-end on a 60 tonne jet.
To all of you who think Im talking from a position of being fat dumb and happy with my Jet job...think about this,

3yrs flying SE piston
2yrs flying multi-piston
2yrs flying multi-turbine
Currently flying a jet........I havent parted with a penny to pay for any training on any aircraft, and Im no intergrated/modular student..just a bit of hard graft.
Oh and debt free
:ok:
The arguement of lawyers and doctors carries no weight, put simply both of these professions (as well as many others) junior professionals have to serve their time before they can progress i.e. to partnerships/private practice etc..etc..most of the guys on SSTR courses want to skip this step out of a mixture of impatience, expectation, and desperation.

[YYZ_Instructor]

I can't believe the things I read on here sometimes!
If this continues I might go buy a simulator and make a fortune doing type ratings!!:ok:

I will give you all my opinion since I am not from the UK but fly here. I started in Canada and that is where I gained all my commercial experience....now over there most people don't seem to jump to conclusions of what they want to fly until they have over 1500+ hours. Most people joining the aviation industry here in the UK seem that soon as they are done and have accumulated there 250 hours are now ready to fly the jets! Where did this ever come from??!?!?! 250 hours??
You shouldn't be allowed to fly 25NM from an airport with that time! You need to instruct! INSTRUCT INSTRUCT INSTRUCT!!! get 1000TT, and then maybe you could be able to fly a charter or cargo Piston twin....that s how to gain hours.

The CAA need to become involved as well...I think there is a serious problem over here and the airlines are all taking advantage of this situation. I have heard that they had a scheme years ago where a pilot required 700TT to have his CPL issued?!?
If that is the case, why did they change that?

Most operators in America or Canada require 500Multi PIC before you can fly as captain on a multi engine piston aircraft...and that sounds about right to have that kind of experience to be allowed to fly an aircraft of that sort.

I am sorry to say this, but people in the UK that I have met need to realize that Instructing is the way to build hours, not paying for a type rating! and i know a lot of people with type ratings and 100 line training that don't even get a response from their CV's.

250TT > Instruct 1000TT> Charter 1500TT> Regional 3000TT> Airlines

don't try jumping too far before you can walk!

don't pay for type ratings, its not your job to pay for it!

Good luck
:ok:

[Penworth]

People are always asking, if I don't pay, then what else can I do? The answer is simple, apply only to companies you would like to work for who don't have the ridiculous requirement of being already type rated!

So many people say that SSTR's are the reality, and we just have to accept it. Well we don't because there are still decent airlines out there - I have recently been assessed by BACX, Flybe, Thomsonfly and Cityjet, all of whom asked to interview me despite me not being type rated, and I'm sure there are many others out there.

Ok, you might say, I applied to those companies and wasn't successful. Well in that case take the advice of the previous couple of posters and work your way up in the industry, taking things one step at a time rather than feeling the need to be in the RHS of a jet yesterday....

[scroggs]

YYZ Instructor Unfortunately, you are wasting your time pining for days of old! You might wish that things were different (do I detect a bit of trans-Atlantic jealousy, perhaps?), but they are not. The airline industry in UK is in excellent health, unlike that in North America, and it needs new people - lots of them.

However, there has developed an expectation among baby pilots here that 250 hours' flying (not training) is all they need to acquire to be 'owed' a jet job, and certain organisations have capitalised on that over the past couple of years - Ryanair in particular, but others as well. The Solid-Airline lot that BAP refers to look to be a prize example of a scam perpetrated on impressionable wannabes - avoid!

However, the airline industry here could not afford all the new guys to go off into flying instruction, however valuable such flying might be, and there is no intrinsic reason why a 250-hour pilot cannot enter TR and line training and thereafter (with around 350 hours) perform adequately as a co-pilot on an airliner. Most modern airliners require far less skill and thought to fly (at a basic level) than your average piston twin! Most military organisations put their new pilots in charge of far more complex equipent at a similar number of (far higher quality) hours, so it's not a non-sequitor.

The SSTR argument is a distraction from the issue; SSTRs are a legitimate training device offered by many bona-fide training orgainisations and aimed at a wide variety of pilots who, for whatever reason, wish to equip themselves with a type rating to make themselves more attractive in the marketplace. The real issue is operators like Ryanair that have contracted people to fly for them while either paying to do so or while not being paid. That is where the immorality lies, not with SSTRs which are no more immoral than a CPL/IR.

Scroggs

[scameron77]

Some of you reading this may find this thread I started a couple of months ago useful. Oddly it followed a similar pattern to this, question posed, abuse, then some useful advice and an informed debate.

Link to Buying a Type Rating Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193024)

I hope it is of some use as I did some maths and thought about the whole process without emotion as a pure business decision. Some otheres added some pertinent information that I think all low hour pilots should at least consider when deciding on that first step after attaining the CPL. My next six months is mapped out with a mixture of ATPL study with Bristol and my JAA Multi CPL/IR conversion combined with networking and finding out which nightclub the personnel manager at Virgin Atlantic's daughter frequents.

Stephen

[Luke SkyToddler]

Guys it's not worth arguing about

This whole ball game is going to change beyond recognition in a few short months when the JAA multi pilot licence is set upon us, and EVERY SINGLE STUDENT coming out of the big UK and European flying schools has had a type rating of their choice, thrown in as part of their ab initio training.

Have a think about how that's going to skew the playing field ... especially if you're 200 hours and unemployed in the current market :{

There's hopefully going to still be scope for a few old multi-thousand hour turboprop lags like me to get into a decent job without paying for it - but the rest of you low timers, if I was you I'd take a collective deep breath, bend over & spread 'em for your bank manager a.s.a.p.

[M80]

Hi BAP

I find your posts really interesting as it highlights your mindset extremely clearly and hence your conclusion of buying a rating. Lets see if I can get everything said in a positively critical manner.

I agree with you on the way the market has moved and now type ratings are becoming a neccesary evil - at least in the eyes of low hour wannabees. Let me be candid and honest - I am a low hour wannabee seeking employment as well. However, I have to disagree wholeheartedly on you assumptions that wannabees and airlines are not to blame, yet experienced pilots, advanced in their careers, are. Yes, it would seem a great concept for experienced pilots to demand that their company hires only the highest calibre cadets rather than the wealthiest, but that is not the role of those pilots or, I imagine, within their capabilities to make such demands.

Who is to blame? In my eyes we are. Yes, wannabees. We are making this bed for ourselves as we are readily paying training as it would appear there are no other options now. We have created the direct-to-airline route by not being willing to gain experience by any other means to the point that now your argument is correct - there actually are fewer other options now as not paying to go to the airlines leaves you open to spending years in the wilderness whilst other wannabees willing to pay fill the airlines requirements. I know several instructors who have simply become too "old" to enter airlines and have an extremely slim chance of jumping across to airlines. Are airlines to blame for capitalising on this? I would love to paint them black, but truthfully I think we have done this to ourselves. As you state, it's business. Furthermore - you state yourself that airlines are now requiring hours due to the sheer volume of potential candidates with self funded type ratings, and use this as a justification for paying to "work" whilst building hours.

As you state, the industry should only train the number of pilots it requires and those be of the highest calibre. I can assure you that if it was left to airline accountants then this would be the case in a world where wannabees didn't try to buy experience or an opportunity to gain employment. What can we assume from this? That those not possesing the required talent, skills, etc... bought type ratings? Perhaps in the past, but as you say it is now the only way; standing out as a perfect candidate without a type rating amongst the flood of newbs running to hand over vast sums of money is next to impossible.

We did this to ourselves and I'm not sure which I find more difficult to believe ; that there is little or no hope of reversing this trend now; or that we think there are no other options to gaining hours and ultimately airline employment. The latter is perfectly highlighted in your arguments which justify your reasons for buying a type and your current desperate situation where you have a type rating and now need hours to stand out before it expires.

This post is not meant to be offensive, or negatively critical, I just don't agree with you that anyone is to blame but us - and it appears to me that you're looking for anyone else to blame but yourself.
I am not making the rules I am just following them. Who has made the rules?? - The experienced pilots/Airlines, not me, I am new in the business! Hear that? World's smallest violin playing just for you. And again - don’t say that the low timers just have to stop paying, because there will always be someone who is willing to do so if he or she sees a job in the other end… Yes, you BAP, so don't say 'someone'. You clearly state all the arguments and the damage that paying for type rating is doing to the industry yet are still unable to acknowledge that you are part of that without stating how helpless you are. You made these decisions, now please, have the courage of conviction to not blame other wannabes, 'comfortable' career pilots, the industry. That's probably what grated me most about your post, and I don't feel you're alone in this - in fact you're one of a large number of wannabes (...again).

Good luck, hope it all pans out okay and hopefully I should be up there one day if I can impress an airline enough with my skills.

M80

[BAP]

Hi M80.

Thanks for your point of you.

I do see your point, yet I don’t agree with it.
Yes you are right, I made the decision to buy a rating - because that was the only way I could see myself reaching my goal – To fly for a living.

Am I to blame or the low timers?? Yes we could stop paying, and then everything would be just fine again.
I would have been the first one to say, ”okay, we don’t buy our own ratings” But I would only have done that if there was a guarantee that no one did buy it, otherwise I would just have been sitting back now with no hope of being employed…
So that’s why, I say that I am just following the rules. And I can’t change them; because it is impossible to say that low timers should stop paying for there own rating. It would only work if everybody stopped, which is naïve to believe, and maybe I am the “Someone”, but that is because an airline would hire me…

Okay you are right, if everybody said the same as I do now, it would never be possible to get low timers to stop paying. So in that context, I am guilty, but that’s simply because I weigh my career higher than how the business is developing. Selfish - Yes very. But to be honest, I don’t believe that you or anybody else would be any different if you had just won a million in the lottery.
Not that I have won anything, unfortunately :)

Okay of course some low timers, did make the bed for us, but that’s many years ago now, and I have no part in that. I just have to sleep in it. Okay I am not exactly helping, but I still believe that the only ones who can stop this are the experienced pilots, because they are the ones who have the power through the pilots union.

Unfortunately as you also said; it is properly irreversible now, and even though the experienced pilots would like to stop this, it might be too late now.

What I believe made me to post my opinion in first place, was that a lot of pilots blame pilots like me, for paying my way forward in the business, but maybe they should look around and see that there are not a lot of options left. The truth is, that if I have had the option of flying as an instructor, GA pilot etc. I would have done it. And I am still trying to find these jobs, even though I am rated on a B737.

But right now I know A LOT of ex-instructors who has decided to pay there way forward in the business, even though they had many hours on both SEP and MEP. So to everybody who just believe that the old career path still exists, please look again.

But anyway, I wish you all the best and I hope that both of us, and anybody else who is waiting for the phone call, will soon find our self smiling above the clouds ;)
/BAP

[YYZ_Instructor]

Thanks for your reply, and I do understand your view as well!
but jealousy??? Why?

I fly in the UK...:ok:

[ACP]

YYZ Instructor,

I also did my flight training and the instructor rating in Canada but I have decided to pay for my A320 rating and then my 300 hrs line training on type. I had 300 hours TT when I started to fly the A320. Most of my friends are still instructing with more than 2000 hrs TT and they are not able to find a job even on a Navajo!
After I got my instructor rating, an airline told me: ''we want actual IFR, instuctor time does not count as you are not flying, you're just watching a student turning around the airport..'' that's why I have decided to go for a TR and that was a good decision for me.
I really think that the logical way to become an instrcutor is to gain a great flying experience and then share your experience. Most instructors want to build flight time which is leading to a poor training.

I have been waiting for 1 year after completion of my TR before joining the line training, you can't imagine how many guys are paying for their experience. It's sad but true.
Good luck and enjoy instructing!

[Canada Goose]

Quote 'I have been waiting for 1 year after completion of my TR before joining the line training, you can't imagine how many guys are paying for their experience It's sad but true.

I guess I can ...... an inevitable extension of the how the abuse escalates once certain airlines realise that there are people out there willing to do anything to get that all important airline job ! I have actually come across a person who said that they were prepared to work for free. As you can imagine, me as someone who actually needs money to live, pay mortgage, feed family etc, didn't take to kindly to this POV. :mad:

Perhaps this is what the doctor down at Gatwick was eluding to two and a half years ago during my initial when he said it is becoming a cut throat industry to work in and why he had chosen to remain flying privately !!

[YYZ_Instructor]

ACP,
I am not getting to you or others about paying for ratings....I it is up to you if you want to pay or not...not me. I do have the money to pay, but I am not willing to pay for that. I am currently flying commercially and not instructing....yet I have never spent more than $1 more than was required to get a CPL/IR. If everyone continues to pay right after flight training there will be no job satisfaction for anyone! Soon it will escalate from paying for a TR to pay to fly the sectors as well!?!?!? no??
What if you had to pay as much as a passenger to sit up there? Would you pay for that? What if they required pilots to pay for the approach fees? Landing fees? Would that be ging to far?
Maybe to you....or others it would, but others after you would.....
Its just another snowball effect!

I am not trying to say what you did is wrong....and I am not trying to get back at Scroggs or anyone on here, I just want to point out that there really is no end to it!

[PILOTOWL]

TWIT-TWOO!!

This thread is the most depressing I've ever read.
The "profession" is getting more like the Georgian and Victorian Officer Class of the British Empire.

It will soon be case of the "profession" purchasing a "commission" in the "Airline", just for the pleasure of saying at the spring dances -

"Captain Blackadder, just back from India - BA210 this morning, it was tough but managed to get Father to wire some money to pay for the sector. It was touch and go but the Red Cap managed to square it."
"Oh Daaarling! , It must of been frightfull" Georgina says, with a resentful sigh knowing that if they did marry, they could never buy a house. "

I was going to quote "charge of the light brigade" but thought that would be too close a call.

In the next decade the only people who will be training are the people with too much money. There will be an almighty **** up. The industry will then decide to take away the pilot and use a computer. So that will be the end of that!!

Accountancy is looking pretty good at the moment!!

TWIT-TWOO!!
:ok:

[scroggs]

The computer-flown aircraft is already here - at least to a limited degree! However, they aren't going to replace you and me for many years yet - at least untill the 777-200LR, 787, 747-8, A350 and A380 are out of service, which is probably 40 years away.

One of the problems with a forum like this is that people can tend to focus on the negative and forget about the positive. In the same way as the interminable integrated/modular debate seems to suggest that you need to be an integrated graduate to get a job, the SSTR debate tends to suggest that you also need to have a jet rating with line training to get a job, especially if you're not an integrated garduate! Neither argument is true, believe me.

If you really must get into a 737 flightdeck at the earliest opportunity, then there may be some - but not much - merit in these arguments. If you are prepared to wait and go a less direct route, there is no reason why you should pay for any of your training post-fATPL. There is no shame in going the night freight/TP route - it's the way the majority of current (non ex-mil) jet pilots went. In any case, what's so good about a 737 versus an ATR? Even my A346 is just a flying office; there's little or no fun involved in the air - that's all on the ground these days! For fun, I'd far rather fly a small TP. At 50, my mortgage and kids won't permit me - but you don't (or shouldn't) have those responsibilities; you should be aiming to enjoy yourselves and learn all you can on your way to eventual longhaul dinosaur-hood!

Remember, if it's not fun you're not doing it right.

Scroggs

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Scroggs, thanks for the wise words.

I certainly don't think that it needs to be a 737/320 right seat or nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly take one if it's offered to me! The bit I find hard (just graduated fATPL) is to bridge the hours gap for TP or even Navajo/Seneca/Chieftain etc. Most places seem to want 700 hours for those jobs. So I (and many others, I assume) need to bridge the gap from 250 or so to 700. I have ruled out FI for now, because it's expensive and a lot of chief captains don't seem to think that watching someone else flying a C152 around the circuit is going to be too beneficial. Which pretty much leaves para-dropping and aerial photography. Have any other bright ideas?

Thx for the good work on the forums

P

PS
All instructors out there, don't jump on me for the FI comment. I actually believe it would make me a better pilot, but my words were based on what I have heard from the horse's mouth.

[flash8]

How I see it, its just the thin edge of a wedge, and it benefits those that can afford it.

In no other profession do you pay for practicing your profession, which is what you are doing in effect when flying those passengers in that 737. You are being used as CHEAP LABOR. You might not feel that way, but the airline isn't a charity - thats exactly what you are doing - being used.

Those that condone this should really think about the situation. It's all fine for some to say "100 hours is OK" but "500hrs is too much" - sounds like desperate justification to me.

And I came up "the old way".

[A320rider]

hello,

another problem I can see in this "pay to work"nasty scam, in the case of a commercial/airliners involved in an accident, a crash....
If they find out that the copilot was still paying to log hours, it means he is a student and not a fully first officer responsible of his acts, and in this case the company will be held responsible to let "student" pilots fly on commercial aircrafts.

personaly, if you are "hiring"a student copilot.I would stop immediately.

I have heared that the FAA , for the same reason, has not authorized student pilots to fly charter's aircrafts in the USA.What about Canada?


if I was working for the CAA, for this only one good reason, I will not authorized pilots to act as a "student pilot" on aircraft with hundred of soul.

I do not say that a pilot paying is less"good" than a pilot fully paid, but a pilot paying is still a student and in this case can not be held responsible.

[scroggs]

If the student pilot has the relevant type rating, he or she is fully legal to fly the aircraft with passengers on board. You'll have to try harder than that, A320rider!

Scroggs

[A320rider]

scrogg, I agree with you, but If a pilot survive in a crash, I bet with you, he will turn his hat from pilot to student.

as a proof, you are not fully employed by an airline if you pay for your hours, and in this case, the CAA/ operator can be held responsible.

It is a concept hard to understand for a novice, but if you are sued by your passengers, you can say:" well guys, I am paying to fly, what do you expect?if you want fly with a good airline, why do not you fly with a company who do not hire students?if you have a problem with that, sue the CAA or the director of my "flight school" but not me, I have no income anyway, and I am fully in debt!!!"

all I can see: they have turned (with the help of the CAA)a company with multimillions $ aircraft to an flight school, with one captain and one student on board paying for his hours, and in the back 200-300 pax.

for me, this is totally illegal, and this kind of operation should be banned from our EU sky like the FAA did on their territory.

secondly, a copilot paying to log hours on a plane with PAX,does not act as a commercial pilot.Commercial license give the privilege to be paid.If you are not paid, you are acting as a privat pilot or as a student pilot and again this is not legal under CAA rules.

legally, you can not even log your hours!

[portsharbourflyer]

While all complaining about paying for type ratings, the biggest contributory factor to why an SSTR seems so enticing is the fact instructors pay is so low. I traditionally objected to the idea of paying for a type rating; but for a good number of people, when you consider the pay cut you need to take to instruct full time, over the span of one year that is more than the price of a type rating. Furthermore alot of instructors still end up paying for a rating.

[flash8]

A320rider poses an interesting point. if you are paying to fly the line, are you classed as "employed"?

I believe EagleJet (hiring for example 727 FO/FE's for stateside cargo ops) get around this as the "employees" are actually paid flight hours.

Interesting to see how this pans out.

[IRRenewal]

Commercial license give the privilege to be paidIt's a privilege, not a requirement.

[Upper Medium]

a320rider

secondly, a copilot paying to log hours on a plane with PAX,does not act as a commercial pilot.Commercial license give the privilege to be paid.If you are not paid, you are acting as a privat pilot or as a student pilot and again this is not legal under CAA rules.

Move post to Jetblast anyone? Oh well, I found it amusing anyway....

Go back into your (hopefully soundproof) box a320rider, you're spoiling an otherwise interesting thread.

UM

[hazehoe]

I don't see why" a320rider needs to go back in his box" and i really don't believe the paying for whatever it takes trend is all that amusing.

Come on sroggs,this is going to effect most of us , if the moderators/ pprune care about this industry why not speak out against paying until you get there,where is the end ,all this might not affect you but it will affect me!!!


:ouch:

[Upper Medium]

hazehoe

I agree, the idea of paying for everything these days is not at all amusing, and that is what this thread is all about. Let's just keep it on a serious level.

I just get a bit annoyed when dedicated professionals can sit down in front of a computer, take paragraphs and phrases completely out of context, compile utter rubbish and press submit.
:{

Sorry a320driver, I think I see where you are going with this, and you may have a valid point actually, but keep your facts straight please.

UM

[A320rider]

flash8,


surly not, you are not considered employed if you pay a company to offer you some flight hours. you have maybe a nice badge cliped on your shirt saying "first officer", but the contract you have signed, is a student contract.
If it was a real contract with a serious company, in the bottom of your contract you should read how much they pay you!if they do not pay you, you are not employed!

When you leave(after your 150-200-300 hours, whatever), you can not say you have worked, and you do not have unemployment compensation,in some countries by exemple, if you want have some cash ,you have to show your last 2-3 months salary receipts and a letter showing you have been fired!.

Under the SOP, only employees can have access to a cockpit, not student.
only employees can pass a security check for a company and only employees can be on a tarmac.

all procedures are in the SOP, and it is printed nowhere that a student pilot who pay a company is authorised to fly with passenger, be on the tarmac by exemple,(this time, the airport could be held reponsible if there is an accident around the aircraft).

again, this is not only my point of view only, but the point of view of the FAA .The FAA has already baned such practices years ago (with this famous school in Florida) I have heared, and I guess soon, the CAA will have to take an "effort" to change some rules in UK or Europe or they could face legal action if one day a plane go down and that we discover that flight deck members was not fully employed.

to keep it simple: an airline is not a school. An airline who accepts you because you have paid them(or you have paid a tierce company) to log some hours, is not authorized under their area of operations. In fact you are downgrading your commercial privileges to privat privileges(should I say student pilot?).

I do not agree with airlines making profit from us, if we do not stop them, one day you will pay for everything, landing fee, hotel, fuel, and PAX' tickets.All I can see , some airlines are breaking laws every single day and the CAA does not give a damn s...t!

have a good one!

[LEVC]

There is been lots of talk, but in my opinion we should make the difference between paying for a TR, which unless you are promised a job is useless, and PAYING TO WORK.

There are several reasons why not to do that, among others:

1-if you pay to work as FO, you are making a first officer unemployed, cause this company wont employ anymore FO, as they can get them for free, better said, paying

2- in the event you get enough hours to be considered for a position, you wont get one, cause they will prefer the following in the queue, with fresh cash

3-The company will be able to lower the prices , thus forcing the other companies to follow their method or go out of bussines, so on the long term you wont have a job, and if you have one the wages will be so low that you'll have to spend your days off working at MCdonalds to make it to the end of the month.



There has been somebody saying that lawyers have to pay for their training and to become partner, well that is true, but this people WILL BE OWNERS OF THE COMPANY THEY WILL WORK IN, while you FO paying to work wont own s**t .


The theory of that there is no way of getting a job in GA is bull****, know lot's of people getting jobs without contacts, one of them being me, it may take a little effort and perhaps moving from an area to another , or even to another country, but it can be done, you don't neeed to be superman for it, just be willing to do it.

The other big LIE is saying that a 1000 hours on SEP, either instructing or doing aerial work, are useless when it comes to fly big iron, this afirmation is erroneous.


Be honest and say i don't wanna work hard for it, i wanna have it easy because i can afford to pay, and i don't care if i am causing prejudice to myself and my colleagues as long as i get what i want.

It's fine if you want that , but do not try to make it up and convince yourself and others that it is allright.

Call things by their name

[scroggs]

Come on sroggs,this is going to effect most of us , if the moderators/ pprune care about this industry why not speak out against paying until you get there,where is the end ,all this might not affect you but it will affect me!!!

Have you not read my posts? What is it you want me to do, hold a one-moderator strike oustide Ryanair's door? This is a discussion, no more. I may or may not agree with some of the stuff that's written here, but I can't change the marketplace for you. If you want to change it, don't sign up for SSTRs and line training packages. Despite the protestations of some, you do not need to go that route.

I just get a bit annoyed when dedicated professionals can sit down in front of a computer, take paragraphs and phrases completely out of context, compile utter rubbish and press submit.

I'm not sure who you're referring to here. Would you please clarify?

Scroggs

[Upper Medium]

Scroggs

I am sorry, I should have stated it more clearly, I was referring to a320riders post. This thread has otherwise been very interesting. Thanks to the more experienced guys for contributing as well.

a copilot paying to log hours on a plane with PAX,does not act as a commercial pilot

legally, you can not even log your hours!

This is what I'm referring to.

Perhaps a little harsh, but I see and hear people all the time with (in my opinion) "liberal" interpretations of JAR rules and regulations. Whether that is because of lack of understanding, an aversion against regs or just plain ignorance I don't know.




UM

[hazehoe]

quote:
____________________________________________________
Bond/Astraeus is not one of them; several Pprune Wannabes have benefitted from their expertise through the Pprune/Astraeus assisted training scheme. We do not associate ourselves with disreputable organisations!
____________________________________________________

Why is this any different than any of the other outfits,you pay for the TR,you pay for line training and than hope that you have a job.

I understand that you can not change the way poeple are trying to force there way in by going these routes or change the market place. I do believe that by associating your self with the above scheme more and more wannebees will believe that this is the way to go.
I did go the "old" route ,banner towing,flight instruction in single and multi engine airplanes,gargo twins and fly for a regional in the UK now,the statement from other ppruners that this is impossible today is just not true,i now of several poeple that are doing just that at this moment. The clear message to wannebees should be;do not pay for anything after the FATPL. I recently visited a school in the UK where a friend is instructing because he refuses to pay his way in,there were several students working on the ATPL writtens who were the proud owners of a PPL the discussion during the coffee brake was about which TR to buy after they finished there training (737/A320) and how much it would cost to get a couple of hunderd hours on these types.
The only thing i read here is how hard everybody tried, the facts are that a good chunk of them go straight to a TRTO with a bunch of money and pay whatever it takes to get in.
The best thing we can do is to dicourage these individuals by telling them NOT to do this( yes i know,they will anyway),but i will give it a try every time i have a change.

I will go with you and sit in front of Ryanair's door
;)

Cheers

[scroggs]

Hazehoe, I think you should go back and read through the process by which we selected people for that scheme, and the terms under which it was offered - and the results that our wannabes achieved. OK, it's not perfect, but it was a bloody sight better than was being offered by anyone alse at a time when jobs were very thin on the ground. We are not in a position to give away free training, and we never will be, but we got 10 (I think) wannabe pilots into employment with no money upfront and with a reinvestment into the Pprune fund that is right now being used to help other wannabes achieve their dreams. You want to knock us, go ahead - but check your facts first.

Also, your post reinforces the impression I get that wannabes are increasingly feeling that they should be offered a 737 seat directly from their CPL training. I have no idea why people feel that they now have a right to such a seat, but it would appear that they do. They are wrong. Money can sometimes buy advancement in just about any field, to some degree. It's true that buying a TR and line training may accelerate your advancement to that 737 seat, but why is that the all-consuming goal? What is wrong with the slower route via TPs etc? There will always be a few 'lucky' ones who can either afford to do the quick and expensive route, or who get selected via OAT and others for BA, but the majority will have to look to the far more fulfilling longer route to that jet seat. That's as it always was; this is not a new phenomenon.

Upper Medium Have a look at yer man A320rider's profile, and his posting history. He is not a professional pilot and, with his attitude, it's quite likely he never will be! He is an inveterate whinger who feels that the world owes him a living - and he paid for a rating, I believe.

Scroggs

[A320rider]

the difference between Ryanair, and some other companies.Ryanair is hiring you and pay you a salary, and some airlines do not pay you. You pay them a certain amount of money based on the numbers of hours you fly.Schools sell block time too!

I am talking about this kind of practice(second case) which are "killing" us and every body on board.

I would like to know what could happen if during a preflight inspection, you fall from your plane,(Yes , people have been injured or even killed like that).Do the airlines' insurance pay for hospital fees?
what will happen next?, do they kick you out? what happen if you lose your medical. Are you registered with Balpa? what say Balpa about this?.

Years ago, this famous company based in Florida was working with US airlines under the aerocharter, Taxi ... federal rules operations.
these companies were "hiring" foreigners with an M1 visa.
it pissed of course everyone(specially US citizen) until one day, the FAA says stop.
Airlines were not giving jobs to US pilots, simply because they were making more money by turning their company to a "flight school".
This is why now, this famous Florida company is recruiting some of us to replace European paid jobs (and with the help of our government who are breaking laws every single day) .

I hope sincerely, that the CAA, and the european commission bans this kind of "illegal operation" in Europe.

I bet with you, that India, and China will adopt same system (maybe it is already done!)...

@Scroogs,thats right I am maybe not a commercial pilot,but for sure I am simple passenger, and for what I know, I expect to have fully paid pilots on board of my aircraft, and not a student pilots who tries to achieve his dream simply because he has the money.
I think it is illegal that a pilot pay more than a passenger, and passengers should be informed(passenger'rights).
maybe one day, we will see publicly a list of these companies who ask money from their flight crew.
anyway, I will do a little research on line, and see what we can do.

[hazehoe]

Fair enough, i din't read the pprune program that you guys put together. I agree it's a different ball game.

Cheers

[flash8]

Whilst I disagree with A320riders "student pilot" issue, as this is patently not the case, the purchasing of line time effectively makes you a prostitute (harsh words but well deserved) and the airline a customer and the training organisation a pimp.

This is the thin of a wedge, and unless fought now will rapidly become the norm. In a few years time the "Integrated+100hrs Jet" (a la Stapleford/Astraeus) will become "Integrated+500hrs Jet". SSTR's are almost the norm already (I thank Southwest for that, although they to their credit have seen the light).

Although an accident under these circumstances is certainly not more likely, if it were to occur it would I think force some legislative framework in place, which might not be a bad thing.

[atccfi]

Hey BAP, PM me with your personal information and I will get you a job with my company. We are very in need of Qualified, typed and professional pilots such as yourself.

PS - I don't know why I posted a reply on here and it was deleted by the moderators.... Is that common practice on here?

Simple - you didn't post a reply. You cut-and-pasted BAP's entire (long) post and added a one -line insult. You wasted our space and trivialised an interesting discussion. If you want to play games on the internet, do it somewhere else. If you have something worthwhile to say, then say it. I note that this post of yours is also little more than a taunt.

Scroggs

[scameron77]

As usual, despite the best efforts of the post originator, Scroggs and a few others this is yet another post on thst slidy slope that is name calling and misinformation.

Everyone on here has to take some time to read the posts objectively and take from them what they will. Don't spit the dummy out the pram if someone says something that you disagree with, just dry your eyes and move on. Also if you correct people on spelling or the fact that airline A has 737-300's opposed to 737-400's I'd take a long look in the mirror.

Now rant over, here is my two cents worth (I am capitalising certain words to ensure there is no confusion in what I'm trying to say):

I'm NOT advocating paying for a type rating, I'm SUGGESTING that its something that newly qualified pilots should research and give ample thought to. I pointed this out in a tread I started with a link on page 2 of this one. I would also add the job front APPEARS to be IMPROVING day by day for the better, so in 12 months someone looking back may think of this as obsolete.

When I look objectively from a distance and with my 'business hat' on I can see SOME sense in maybe shelling out for a type rating.

Its basically how importantly do you rate yourself? This was hit on the head for me when you think in terms like this:

Christmas shopping in any major UK city, pain in the arse parking, you see a shiny NCP offering parking at 3 quid an hour, 'bollocks to that, its a Sunday' you tell yourself 'I'll find a meter' so you drive round for 10 more minutes looking, finally find one and park, yes its free, its a 15 minute walk to the NCP which is beside the Shops (therefore 40 minutes total) and you burned fuel pissing about looking for it. So saving 6 quid cost you more in terms of your time, hassle and can never be accused of being efficient or environmently friendly. In real terms the average UK salary is 25k a year (= 13 quid an hour) in real terms you are about 2.50 down.

Does everyone hate NCP's, bloody right, but when you equate how valuable your time is it sometimes make sense. Now think in terms of career progression and logging those all important 'quality hours'.

If you equate the cost (one organisation in the US does them from $8,500 to $11,500) against potential salary in a 100+ passenger jet and the fact that from when you are hired you are logging those all important 'quality hours' and compared against other alternatives open to less than 700TT more than 250TT then I think it should be given ample thought.

[Duff Shark]

Firstly before i start i would like to hear of cases where someone with 250TT who bought a TR and got a job after it.... no "i knew a guy", i want direct references..

My impression from most of the cases i read that these people end up with a big debt (or daddy does) and no job. im sorry with 250TT TR or not, you dont know sh*t.

Now we are all dragging the industry down with all this talk of paying for TR's, ICUS. Whats wrong with hard work? get off the sofa an look for work. If you cant find it go to where the work is ! There are numerous posts on where you can go and get a job. Follow the tried and tested career path to success,
250TT (instruct/do scenics)
1000TT (charter)
2000TT (RPT / Airline)

we are professionals here,
we do not work for nothing !
we do not pay to work for an operator !
If you see someone do it... that does not give you an excuse to do it !

my 2c

Duff Shark

[A320rider]

if you want to complain, PM me and I will give you the address.

[ACP]

Duff Shark and few others,

i would like to hear of cases where someone with 250TT who bought a TR and got a job after it.... no "i knew a guy", i want direct references..

Direct references: I am 26 and I had exactly 262 hours TT when I bought my EA32 type rating, then I flew til 300 hours on a C172 before joining the line training on the A320. I am now paid and I can refund my loan without stress...
At the same time, 2 friends of mine with 200 hrs TT were on the 737NG TR and are now flying for an airline based in the Uk.
My partner during the TR had 600 hrs TT mostly done on a C152 as an instructor, he is now flying in SE Asia on the A320

You have to wake up guys, flying a jet is not more difficult than a light twin. You have to realise that we are asked to monitor a computer and you DON'T need 5000 hrs experience for that. Airlines put these requirements otherwise they receive 1000 CVs per day. The fact is that some people can't afford to pay a TR so they can only give advise even if they are not in the reality of the market. It's sad but money is running the world not only in aviation. You have the choice to lose your time on the internet or jump in the real seat...the job won't come to you.
Hope it helps

[PicMas]

I am a firm believer that the kids with too much money between their hands are ruining a former reputable business.

Being a pilot is no longer a job but an expensive hobby for rich kids.

I instructed 1600hrs, flew twin-piston charter, instructed some more - when I reached 2,500hrs the market was full of "kids with dreams" who didn't mind paying to fly as it was their "lifelong dream" (pretty ironic for these 20something aged kids)

I recently decided that the business has now become saturated with SSTR and paid linetraining schemes. As a consequence I have chosen a different career path - totally unrelated to aviation.

Still keep up with news on BB's like this one - Glad I got out, bitter about spending that much time and money and then seeing these idiots cheating in line, yes! you are cheating in line.

If you paid for your T/R I hope you are unemployed, I hope that your sh!tty contracts expires and that some chief pilot somewhere will choose a REAL pilot over you.

Maybe someday the business will return to an acceptable level where experience isn't bought with money.

Keeping my tickets current - but seriously doubt they will ever be used for anything more than a sunday trip around the flagpole, which will be a great opportunity to listen to the SSTR-pilots messing up the frequencies because they bought themselves into a position they just do not have experience to handle.

The argument that instruction is a waste of time is absolutely lame, and usually made by the retards that can't get there fast enough. I learned loads from instructing - a lot more than just stick and rudder.

Funnily you see these newbies complaining about terms and conditions in the business they so helped to undermine.

Thanks for letting me vent, just bitter - wouldn't you be?

[hazehoe]

ACP ,it does help.

You are confirming what i and a lot of other poeple here have stated about you and your buddy's,you are a cancer to this industry. I hope that some of the guys/girls in the LHS at your company will deal with you the way you deserve. In the company i work for, me (and a lot of other guys) will apply CRM(with individuals like you) only to the point were a safe flight is gauranteed, other than that you would be on your own and you can stick that TR in your:mad:

Good luck.

[flash8]

The purchasing of line time effectively makes you a prostitute (harsh words but well deserved) and the airline a customer and the "training" organisation a pimp.

Just thought I'd quote these words again for those of you who don't read too well.

Along those lines, I believe Stapelford/Astreaus are ACTIVELY discouraging older (30+) ab-initio trainees on their integrated+100hrs 737 "course" (and I use that term loosely esp. as I have never heard of a "course" that discriminates on age) which suggests to me STRONGLY that they are using this as a cheap (and profitable) way to recruit young, new (and naive) pilots into their "culture" and keep 'em on AND not as a pure "training" device (where age would I assume be somewhat less material).

Welcome to the new World.

[ACP]

Hazehoe,

I hope that some of the guys/girls in the LHS at your company will deal with you the way you deserve

The airline I am working with used to hire F/Os for line training and there is no problem with those in the RHS as long as you do your job. It's not because you have decided to pay for your first experience on a jet that your are a bad boy or that your personality is bad. By the way, you have to do a sim evaluation and an interview before joining the airline, if you are not safe, they don't take you (and your money).

In the company i work for, me (and a lot of other guys) will apply CRM(with individuals like you) only to the point were a safe flight is gauranteed

Have you just realised that you are trained and paid for that?

[hazehoe]

ACP ,are you really a pilot? have you ever done a CRM course?, who is talking about you being safe or not? Can you explain "used to hire F/Os for line training"?

Yes, i know what i am paid for and i just told you how i handle that!!

Dream on;)

[Duff Shark]

ACP,

thanks for the information at least someone here has backed it up... however.

"You have to wake up guys, flying a jet is not more difficult than a light twin"

When will you guys wake up ..its not flying the plane thats im worried about .... its the fact you no command experiance. the 1000-2000 hrs you gain in GA is all command nowone to hold your hand on a stormy night on IFR charter..

You also say that the guys in the RHS have no problem with you...... they may say nothing to your face but you are a scab in they eyes of all professional pilots, you have taken some "qualified" pilots job because you have forked out the cash..

its sad where u guys are taking this industry.... my advise to others, dont take the easy way out. Flying in the bush is an experiance/adventure and you will have some great stories to tell, and you will become a much better pilot.


Duff Shark

[747 Downwind]

Duff Shark: I had 215 hours, did a 737 rating with 100 hours.. got a job on the 737 after a month. There are others like me, BUT there are also others without jobs. The SSTR is a gamble.. make no mistake about it!

Scroggs: I have met a few people who refused to fly anything but jets and one of them actually got there (no SSTR, just hard work through the back door of a particular airline). Furthermore, there are many who come straight out of flight school and self fund a TR. However, there are many others who would be willing to fly anything. SSTR in my opinion is an extension of desperation.. a fear of never getting to fly anything!!!!

Many people on my SSTR course had been out of flight training from 1-3 years. I myself worked in flight ops (company went tits up), looked for air taxi work.. they weren't interested and fair play to them because they know they can get another muppet more experienced equally as prepared to work for peanuts. If I had not passed the selection to start the SSTR then I would have been forced to pay for a FIC, I had not flown an aircraft for over two years.. people don't start to take you seriously anymore. I was unprepared to sit on my arse and watch newly qualified guys come out of flight school and reap the rewards of an industry that is vibrant.. so I did something about it and for me it paid off.

As others have posted, the industry is vibrant, and you can get offered jobs without a TR, my first interview with a regional airline came sadly too late as I was fully committed to the TR, but it shows the chances are there. FlyBE, Air Southwest, ThomsonFly, BA mainline and citiexpress, Cityjet, Air Aurigny, Air Wales.. there are many more.

PicMas: Yes you are bitter, it's a pity. I could have ended up like you.. instead I decided to take the gamble (take out a loan).. of course it's far more difficult if you have a mortage and a family.. I have neither, and I KNOW if I chose to have both then I couldn't have done what I did, if you've already got both tough luck.. quit moaning you've got a house and a family!

Hazehoe: quote: 'other than that you would be on your own and you can stick that TR in your'

Yeah.. good CRM mate, that's really what United Airlines were looking for when they first implemented CRM.. who's your flight safety officer.. do they support you enlightened views on CRM.

Flash8: Reading you loud and clear 5 by 5, get over the age thing.. we all get old at some point.


To conclude, wannabes there are many ways to find a job.. the SSTR is a gamble and it doesn't always pay off. Most have selection processes as they should have, but even if you do pass the selection be warned not everybody passes the TR.. or further more passes the line check. It will take a lot of hard work to acheive even the bare minimum line standard (unless you have previous jet experience.. highly unlikely!!). Then of course you will be in stiff competition against fellow candidates and other more experienced jet pilots for the available jobs. Many jet operators do take SSTR contrary to the moans on this forum.. it is the airline management and in particular flight operations management who have the say.. not the bitter views of some on this forum: BA, Ryanair, Excel, Channex/Jet2, Thomsonfly, Astraeus, FlyGlobespan, BMI Baby and other UK airlines have taken SSTR guys.. Easyjet, Thomas Cook, Monarch take from the CTC programme (self-funded!!). I think you get my point.
The flight instructor route I feel is a proven way of gaining experience and enjoying a flying challenge.. it is not to be mocked, however, it will cost between, 5-7 grand to get the damn rating (not many schools sponsor anymore) and you will have to be able to afford to live on a salary which is close to an insult in lieu of the challenge and responsiblity a flight instructor has to deal with.

To those bitter moaners out there: keep it bitter
Wannabes good luck with the job hunting

747 Downwind

[flash8]

747 Downwind:

Although I am in my (late) 30's, I am also 737 RHS, just like you, although unlike you I didn't pay for a TR, I slogged my way through FI and TP's (all great experience by the way for those of you not wishing to "dirty" your hands with such things). I don't give a sh*t about age. I do however give a sh*t about attitude.

Marketing courses (such as the integrated+TR+100) as "training schemes" which are little more than profit makers for the airlines wanting a supply of FO's that meet their criteria is **unprintable**. This is effectively something along the lines of a "pay yourself/we select you" Cadet Scheme. Lets get the facts into the open.

I fear the industry is heading this way, and soon we will see this as the norm, and along the way degrading what flying really is all about. I'm not an old fart reminiscing about the "good 'ol days" of FI/TP etc, but that experience and commitment really defined to me what flying was/is all about, hard work and perserverance=solid experience and character, not the current "buy-yourself-a-737-job" we are now seeing.

[A320rider]

if you would like to send a complaint, You can stop the "pay to work"''scam...
I have talked with one of the commission' representant, they told me they want hear from you, by writing them, email them or fax them.The ball is in your camp!

here the address:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

European Commission
Directorate-General for Energy and Transport
B-1049 Brussels

fax (32-2) 299 10 15
e-mail: [email protected]
---------------------------------------------------------------------

[hazehoe]

747 Downwind

You responded to a lot of poeple on this post,you must be an EXPERT. I feel the same way about you and the way you had to force yourself in to the industry.

About the CRM, i will keep open communications,polite responses to questions,no harsh words etc, i will keep it professional.Don't expect me to ask you about your family,what you are doing for Christmas, the girl you fancy etc etc. If you believe i fail this part,you got it.You call this enlightened,you want me to buy you a beer after the flight or tell you how much i like flying with you? Wake up man,name me another business where poeple would not be pissed off if you are trying to advance your career and by the way you do this slow there career( your colleages) down and cost them money. Wait in line,go fly a twin in the Gongo or if this is not good enough for you BUY (which is still BS if you ask me)an ATR TR if you can't wait, but no,the logical step is from your BE 76 to the 737.

sorry to break the news but i suspect that a healthy amount of your colleages look down on you.

Go on and promote your TR buying to the new wannabees, you already did enough damage,but you had to come on here with your worldly look on things and explain how aviation works, i am sure you have been is this business for at least 2 years.:yuk:

[scroggs]

hazehoe and 747downwind: if you can't continue this discussion without descending to name-calling and abuse, then I will be forced to remove your access to this thread. Keep your passions under control; your argument is not enhanced by profanities and the like. On the contrary, it is considerably diminished. Play the ball and not the man!

Scroggs

[RVR800]

Question: Wlll the Multi-Pilot Rating help to train pilots who specifically want to pursue a career in the airlines, compared to the largely GA based frozen "Airline" Pilots Licence that spends most of the dosh on older and single crew technologies?

Multi-Crew Pilot Licence

This is "The Future” for airline pilot training

JAA is making all efforts to facilitate it, by creating a regulatory framework in JAR-FCL

Change to General Requirements,

Instrument Rating, ATPL(A),
Instructors,
Examiners
and Theoretical Knowledge Requirements

Introduction of new Subpart K – Multi-Crew Pilot Licence

[scroggs]

The new multi-crew licence is covered adequately in this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111060&highlight=multi+crew+licence) discussion. Please do not dilute the discussion in this thread by going off on tangents. You may of course contribute freely to the linked thread.

Scroggs

[A320rider]

Please would you stop,
if you dont agree with the situation in this aviation market, why dont you contact your politicians.

I gave you the adress where to send your complaint. So do it!. what does it cost you?, a stamp.
mine is ready to be print out and send and I have contacted some other guys on other french forums to pass the word.

[747 Downwind]

Flash8: I will not get involved in the morality of buying a TR, in fairness I have done it before, bit of light hearted humour that's all (it came out wrong). U seem like a nice enough guy. I personally feel that the best way is via FI and turbo-prop as well if you read the posts, I just felt after a number of years I would never get the chance.. NOTE: I chose SSTR over FIC because I felt I couldn't survive on the salary in London after shelling out seven or so grand, and the TP interview was offered too late. Believe it or not I wish I had gone down that route.. for the experience, I still look up at TP's as they climb out of London City and wonder what it would be like. If I could suggest this one thing.. I am not trying to advertise SSTR's I have warned many on the perils of this route, so why am I here? I have many friends just like everybody else who are unemployed and my aim is to help those people with the little experience that I have. Could I suggest that instead of exchanging opinions, of which I am guilty, you could use your experience and state airlines, methods of contact info. etc etc so that the wannabes on this site could benefit from it.. this forum has become too much about discussion.

Hazehoe: I am not experienced, that is the issue, I come on here give my time to help, I give people info via PM's.. real facts. I don't have to do it.. if I didn't give a sh1t then I would come back from work check my e-mails and go straight to the pub to meet the boyz. You are the experienced one.. so offer your advice (with facts.. not opinions) to this audience with relevant info to recruitment today.

This is Interview, Jobs and Sponsorships section, the initial question was about F/O SSTR in the Far East, if anybody has any info about this please post as I think lookoutbelow did initially. Otherwise I think this thread should be brought to an end because it is going round in circles.. I have come here to help and I have ended up getting into a petty 'internet' tiff with individuals when usually I deal with things face to face and sort it.. I feel bloody pathethic so now I will go and hide in a corner and reflect:sad:

Good luck with the job hunting guys

[flash8]

747 Downwind... you seem like a decent guy, and its nothing personal believe me. Good luck for the future, but expect some of us to "debate" the issues of the day... hope I didn't give offense, and I mean that sincerely. Cheers!

PS. I'm a nice chap... honest!

And back to the original question... :)

[Duff Shark]

747 Downwind thanks for the constructive debate, this is a passionate topic and lets all try and keep it civil.

As a whole, this industry is going downhill fast. Understand thet you are motivated and want to jump start your career but at what expense. Just think that now you guys have lowered the standard, where does this go next. If you were offered a LHS at 50% reduced salary would you take it? cause if you dont some guy with 300TT will have your job and prolly do it for free.... soon we will be paid less than the cleaner like in GA where does it stop.

Then when flying becomes a job and you have done the same sector so many times you could do it one handed and blind folded you will wonder why you can barely afford the rent in a sh*thole apartment and your car is older that the planes in the GA apron, It is only then you will understand what you guys have done to the industry

Please understand that we are Professionals, taking less pay/conditions that the Industry norm will to get ahead is only by devalueing all the hard work that you put into getting your licences and TR.

You dont have to pimp youself out to get a job!

Why are we accepting these lower pay and conditions when management "fat cats" salaries are going up.


Duff Shark

[Craggenmore]

It's true that buying a TR and line training may accelerate your advancement to that 737 seat, but why is that the all-consuming goal? What is wrong with the slower route via TPs etc?............but the majority will have to look to the far more fulfilling longer route to that jet seat.
Amen to that Scroggs.

Got the CPL/IR, currently a full time FI (with daily retainer :)) Met so many flying contacts through my club that no amount of letters could ever, ever match.

Been safety pilot on VIP trips throughout Europe, all expenses paid, on private TP's. Off to Europe twice more with fly aways next year, all paid for. Been flying with so many interesting and like minded characters. I always enjoy their genuinely funny and refreshing stories. Also got to drive one of my mature students F360's by way of thankyou for helping him to nail steep turns to the right (!!!!!!!) All in a day's work with more fun and variety to come.

Also in a hold pool (thanks to my ever-expanding contacts book) for an airline that still provides free type ratings to their selected cadets, (no not BA.)

So my message is really to think about what you want from your flying and when you want it. You can either run to the brothel and snap up the one you want or you can walk to the brothel and have them all.

To fast-track force-pay yourself into a jet job means you will have few other aviation goals to look forward too as you are suddenly there in the holy grail of jet land! Your only other achievment will be to meet your extra £20,000 of loan repayments on time. From here on in, its just a question of how long do I now want to sit in a cockpit for? 3 hours or 12. Surely there's more to this game than that?

If you like, measure your flying career by seeing how many forums you are able to post in with authority. Don't let it just be Wannabees and then T&C's. You'll only become another whingher about the lack of money you're getting and it will hurt more with your unnecessary £20,000 SSTR loan still hanging over you.

By the looks of things, the only forum I'll be unable to post on in 18 months time will be Biz Jets & Military and I mean that with the sincerest respect because I am slowly getting what I want out of this career, a lovely feeling of variety!

Remember...you're a long time dead.

;)

Craggs

[747 Downwind]

flash8 and duff shark: thankyou for your constructive comments. I shouldn't have lost my temper with a certain individual (NOT you two guys) and it somewhat blurred my post's intention.. to help these guys find work. I do believe that SSTRs undermine the industry, my decision was out of desperation and a personal view of acceptance. Ironically it may have worked out for me with a certain regional airline had I delayed my decision by 3 months.. and that is what I am trying to get across to wannabes. There are jobs and the turbo-prop market is recruiting low houred guys. Even some of the more established jet carriers are taking low houred guys/and those with air taxi and instructor experience.. good to see!!

Amazingly when I first heard of Ryanair and BOND offering SSTRs I steered well clear of the idea. I don't think it's right and I still don't think it is right. People may see me as a hypocrit therefore, but I only made the decision as I felt I would never have got a job otherwise.. perhaps I was wrong, but my one fear was NEVER getting a job.. not the wait, the hard work nor having to fly light aircraft.. it's all interesting and exciting stuff that gains you great experience, I just felt I would never be given a chance after a couple of years.

Just taking a tangent off the SSTR route.. to prevent guys paying for TRs you have to find another route that's practical and appealing. Compiling a list of air taxi ops.. as I think a recent post has done, and FTOs.. they take our money (profit) and then won't even pay for an FIC when they pay instructors peanuts. Agreed airline salaries have not inflated over the years in comparison to other professions.. but instructors and GA pilots get paid a pathetic salary. Surely FTOs can afford to pay more.. it is unfare that wannabes have to pay further for FIC when many are it debt.

Good luck with the jobs.. a lot going on ppjn and elsewhere

747 Downwind:ok:

[scroggs]

Perhaps it is time this discussion died, but I have one further point to make to the TR/line training afficionados: what are you going to talk about on the flight deck? One of the greatest pleasures I have in my job is discussing previous lives on fast jets/turboprops/flying round africa and all the hundreds of fascinating and different routes that my colleagues came to longhaul via. I haven't yet met anyone who went CPL/IR to 737 to A340. Just as well, as they wouldn't have much to talk about!

Scroggs

[Number Cruncher]

Scroggs

Hard may it be for a lot of people on these forums to believe, but there is actually life outside of aviation and I happen to have and have had one, so that doesn't over worry me in terms of funding a TR sometime in the future.

I think you have three types of people involved in these discussions:

1) The people who are already in the left/right hand seat and are worried only by the fact that the people willing to get involved with SSTR are going to bring down their own T&C's.

2) You then have those who cannot afford to fund n SSTR and are worried that those who can are going to take the jobs from them, unfairly in their eyes.

3) The guys who can afford them, or who are willing to get themselves a bit more into debt for what will eventually lead to a much healthier bank balance and ability to finance loans.

Face it. Times appear to have changed. Some say goes become an instructor. Well, thanks but no thanks having seen various young guys at my FTO sitting around looking glum and having done so for a good couple of years. And to be honest I think I’d be a ****e instructor and why should some willing, paying student want to end up with me as their instructor?

When I set out in this game a few years ago my aim was to pilot passenger aircraft - as I believe everybody who enrols at OAT/FTE/Cabair does. I opted for modular for various reasons. OK, I am not being recommended to an airline, but I did save £27k, so in my eyes funding a SSTR is justified.

Good luck to you all, but remember you make your own luck to a large extent.

[PicMas]

PicMas: Yes you are bitter, it's a pity. I could have ended up like you.. instead I decided to take the gamble (take out a loan).. of course it's far more difficult if you have a mortage and a family.. I have neither, and I KNOW if I chose to have both then I couldn't have done what I did, if you've already got both tough luck.. quit moaning you've got a house and a family!

Could have ended up like me?? I see it quite the opposite, I could have ended up like you had I had no dignity.

As you are so galantly helping the "wannabees", I might ask you for a helping hand. Where is my house located?? Don't recall having one of those...

Sell-outs like yourself really ought to be quiet on these forums, don't justify your unbecoming choices by repeating it over and over. There is no way around the fact that if you buy T/R and time you are in fact a sell-out.

You wanna sell out?? Fine, just be quiet about it. There is nothing glorious about buying a job.

In the company i work for, me (and a lot of other guys) will apply CRM(with individuals like you) only to the point were a safe flight is gauranteed, other than that you would be on your own and you can stick that TR in your

....Amen

[An2]

Flash8,

-"The purchasing of line time effectively makes you a prostitute (harsh words but well deserved) and the airline a customer and the "training" organisation a pimp."

I think it would be fair to say that you've got things messed up somewhat! ;)

A prostitute makes money by providing a "service", which logically would mean that in the business of buying line-training, the "prostitute" would have to be the airline handing out the "service"! Right?!

The middle-man ( be it Eaglejet or Bond, or whatever their names may be) connecting the student and the airline (prostitute) in order to get some business going, would then have to be the pimp. Right?

That leaves the student (the buyer of "services", the customer), and I don't know what the UK name for that is.
In Sweden we call them "torskar". Simply because they get hooked!

"Torsk" is a fish and I think that the english word would be "cod" or "haddock". Not sure though..... (please don't take my licences away if, God forbid, I've been mistaken!)
:}


PicMas,

You need to realize that there is no "waiting line" for the job. Never has been. Hence, there can be no "elbowing"!

[A320rider]

dont know about you, but girls pay me to sleep with them, any girls...;)

they are under a "pay to work" contract.

after 300 beds, they can move of streets, and pay another 200beds sessions just to get the new "crack crack" experience!!!:p

just like pilots!

[ACP]

Picmas,

As you said there is nothing glorious about buying a job: but what is the most important?? Glory or the job?

For each job you have to be qualified and you should understand that having a Type Rating on the aircraft that the airline uses is a minimum and logical point. It is not because of you pay 50000$ for a license that an airline is supposed to pay your TR. The purpose of a company is to make profit and it is a waist of time and money to send you for 1 month type rating course expect if they are desparate to find a qualified pilot (which is not the situation in 2005). In that case they might give you the PRIVILEDGE to pay for your rating.

TRTOs now offer line training included in the TR price which is a great experience as you fly for 100 hours under the supervision of a training Captain and it should be considered as a training and not a pay to work experience.

[PicMas]

of course it's a pay to work experience - you are in fact paying to work.

As for what is more important - glory or job. That would be the JOB, provided you are offered a real job. Not the case when you bring a thick wallet to work and fork out for a "PRIVILEDGE".

If I wanted to pay to fly jet, I would definitely chose Migs-Over-Moscow.... they give you a t-shirt

[Conan The Barber]

It stinks. Sure it only supplies a demand but so does the dealer down round the corner.

It is dragging down the industry and everyone involved in this is guilty. You have forfeited your right to ever complain about anything in this industry ever again.

It stinks and so do you.

[scameron77]

Excuse my ignorance but however many years ago when the amount of people paying for their own training from 0 to CPL ME/IR opposed to getting an employer or potential employer to do so increased, did already qualified/working pilots bemoan it as the end of an era like what is going on now with TR chatter?

Maybe someone with who was around may like to add something?

Maybe its wasn't so highlighted as it would have taken place in a time before the internet gave us the opportunity to voice our opinions and discuss our particular industry in an open forum.

Like it or not the industry is changing, harking back to the 80's/early 90's good times will not solve anything, does anyone think anyone hired now will get the salary and benefits offered to those back in the day?

What I've found is to do extensive research, do the sums and remove emotion from the equasion, that way you can make the right decision for you.

[Gnirren]

What I personally don't understand is where the line is supposed to be drawn. For the loud voices opposed to all the SSTR schemes out there, did you not pay for your MCC course yourselves? What is there to say that this requirement should not be funded by the employer as well? In fact, on that line of thought why shouldn't the airline be paying for ALL of your training? I think the industry as a whole is progressing towards a situation where all crew are selected from thousands of applicants, handpicked for the airline and trained in-house to their standards. It's being done today, and it will continue to spread at least that's my guess. Airlines don't want the hassle of evaluating people with such varying training backgrounds and experiences, they want a predictable polished product young enough to give them a good number of years of service.

I may be crazy, but I just fail to see the distinction here. Why is is worse for a guy to pay for his rating to make himself attractive on the market than it is to pay for your own Certificate/MCC?

You know, back in the day day, all airline pilots where basically ex-military which I'm guessing would rule out most of you on here. Personally I'm happy to be living in a day and age where it's possible at all for me to become an airline pilot and thrilled that my personal circumstances coincide with my dream.

Just my thoughts here, I'm not happy about the state of the european industry either but the whole burn-the-sstr-guys-at-the-stake thing is wrong to me.

What I will say as far as money goes is that the door swings the other way as well, regarding where to draw the line. I don't think it's right to work for next to nothing or worse, to pay to work once you're hired. If you're a FO then you should get the FO salary no question about it because that's what you are.

That's is for me... and cheer us dudes, it's christmas! :ok:

[GeeBeeZee]

747 Downwind, yeah i think we are on the same wavelength...

From my experiance getting a first job was pretty easy, easier than i thought. I will not provide details as i think there are enuf posts here about where to go. I did my homework and picked my location, packed my bags and old life up. I worked a few bum jobs for a month or so whilest living in the b'packers. Then when the season started the operater started hireing, most of the guys that hung around during the season got hired, by mid season we were out of pilots and had to advertise as the rest of us ended pulling 90-100hrs/month.

This is the most depressing things....... Out of my class of 20 that graduated at my flying school only 2 left the roost for a job (and we both got work). The rest hung around and tried to get a easy gig in the airlines/RPT as their parents had very deep pockets, sinking more and more money into the training organisation. I have a beef with the training organisations selling them BS hopes and dreams of that there was a job just around the corner. Where are they now, still hanging around waiting for work to find them (maybe 1 got a git on a RPT). These guys are living at home, mum/dad payed for all there training and they would happily work from free/buy a TR and winge that they could not get work.... sooo sad

My advise to all .....
If you want a job you have to go to where the work is, you dont see many icecream saleman at the north pole.



Duff Shark

[cfimei]

OK, who remembers the original question?:

"I'm guessing that most of the airlines asking for FO's to pay for line flying are probably based in the far east. Does anybody have details on whose doing this and where?"

This post has turned into yet another slanging match from the self-opinionated and the ill-informed. Where on earth is the advice that was originally asked for? If you don't know then DON"T POST a response. I was looking for advice as are many people and I'm sure a lot of us are fed up with all the hot air!

[PicMas]

Where on earth is the advice that was originally asked for?

Sounds like you believe somebody owes you advise?!?

When inadequate wanna-be pilots buy ratings and/or jobs, there is a strong possibility that even simple questions like "who will take my money?" or "how do I pay to work?" are simply impossible to answer. If you had the mental capacity to cope with the business in a dignified manner this wouldn't be an issue.

When you post on a BB like this (IMHO) you are not guaranteed anything but (un)willingness to share information/ rumours.

I could mention the first three companies slaving out wanna-be's with thick wallets in SE Asia.

I choose to keep this information to myself, as do other users in the know obviously. Unfair? Illinformed? self-opinionated? Possibly, but really - who is illinformed? who asked a loaded question on a sensible issue to begin with??

"airlines now require T/R and 500hrs" if you believe that and fork out, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy....

[cfimei]

PICMAS - wow, what an aggressive response but then after reading through your posts on this subject I can see why. You are way too bitter about giving up flying for a career and jealous of those who, unlike you, won't give up. Of course there are rich kids living off daddy's wallet. A few years back I met a young Virgin FO and what a pr . . k he was. My appreciation still goes out to the lady captain who told him what she thought of daddy's money!

You choose to "keep information to yourself" rather than offer the advice which was asked for - not expected. I guess your refusal is based on childrens playground antics? If I can't play then I'm not giving back the ball. Now what kind of dignified mental capacity does that display?

Scroggs - is it time to close this topic? (please!)

[haughtney1]

Gosh, the level of personal attack on here is actually quite scary..(I wonder how brave many of you would be..if it were not an anonomous forum :rolleyes: )
Just for the record..once again, the idea of the SSTR is repugnant to me.
I believe it cheapens our profession, reduces the selection process in many cases to those who can afford/cant afford it, and worst of all it artificially creates a glass ceiling to those who have done the "hard-yards" in air taxis and T/Props.
Be that as it may, there is a market for it and legitimate operators are making money from desperate/inexperienced candidates.
Until such time as airlines run out of suitable applicants who can afford a Type on their license, this situation will continue. After all....when you attend oxford aviation on an intergrated course....you expect to walk onto an A320/B737 dont you... :hmm:

[TooLowTerrain]

PICMAS

Who are you?

If somebody wants advice they have the right to ask for it.

And what does mental capacity have to do with taking a different route to what you would prefer.

I believe that even if you pay for a type rating you are still required to achieve the same standard.

I think you need to wind your neck in cause you are close to becomming an arrogant to$$er.

[cfimei]

TooLowTerrain - yep I think you hit it on the head when you talked about being up to standard. I spoke to one of the sales reps at EagleJet International and what he said mirrored your views. Money might get you into a TR course but it doesn't guarantee you'll pass and if you do then you've got to face the airline assessment even if you're paying them for an FO program.

[M80]

If you have nothing to offer but an excess of money, I guess you have to buy a type rating. Skill and study, interpersonal skills and a little bit of independent thinking is cheaper.

Good luck all. Another good year for the banks! :}

[PicMas]

I spoke to one of the sales reps at EagleJet International and what he said mirrored your views. Money might get you into a TR course but it doesn't guarantee you'll pass and if you do then you've got to face the airline assessment even if you're paying them for an FO program.

What did you expect him to say??

"Well son, as long as you pay we will take anybody on, pay a little extra and you won't have to meet any requirements"


If somebody wants advice they have the right to ask for it.

Very good... was that ever questioned??

And what does mental capacity have to do with taking a different route to what you would prefer

Has to do with being able to find answers to questions such as "who will take my money" without expecting users on a BB, some of which (obviously) take great offense, to help with information. If the path of SSTR is so well accepted and those on it so mentally endowed - why hasn't the question been answered?

I think you need to wind your neck in cause you are close to becomming an arrogant to$$er.

Really - what kind of response do you expect with a childish wind-up-attempt like that?!?

[TooLowTerrain]

So... If you pay for the type rating yourself as oppose to somebody else picking up the tab,

you have less skill

what a pile of cack!

Not everybody has a rich family... some of these self funders might actually have worked for the cash.

Just cause they have not worked in the aviation industry does not mean they have not worked.

I think that some of your moaners have an ego problem..

Make you feel special does it when a newbe in a cessna has to hold in order to give way to your big MD80.

PICSMAS

Sounds like you believe somebody owes you advise?!?

Clearly you have a problem with somebody asking something you dont agree with.

Lots of people have expressed their opinions for & against self funding however.

You feel the need to display your views in an arrogant, aggresive manner.

There is this little room called JETBLAST, why dont you go and try your stuff down there..

If you got the balls.

Me finks not

You will get eaten alive.:D

[PicMas]

So... If you pay for the type rating yourself as oppose to somebody else picking up the tab, you have less skill


Sure looks that way, seems difficult to find the companies in question.

Clearly you have a problem with somebody asking something you dont agree with.

Yes

You feel the need to display your views in an arrogant, aggresive manner.

Who is agressive?? Who is using terms like "arrogant to$$er" to get their point across??

Not everybody has a rich family... some of these self funders might actually have worked for the cash.

An incentive to spend it wisely

[scroggs]

This topic seems now to have become a vehicle for those with entrenched views to abuse those whose views are different. Rather than a discussion, this resembles nothing more than a playground shouting match.

Those of you, on either side of the argument, who feel that abuse, ridicule, profanity and name-calling somehow reinforce your case need to step back and think carefully about what you are trying to achieve with your contributions to this or any Pprune debate. The old saying 'it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're stupid, than to open it and prove your stupidity' springs to mind...

This topic is now closed.

Scroggs