Twin corporate required

[EESDL]

Mentioned a while ago that company would be looking to purchase a twin corporate jet/turbo-prop (most likely turbo-prop due to seating capacity)........
.......schedule now accelerated due to Boss' recent experience getting back from Toulouse with an airline......diverted to Bristol to fill seat up etc......

Have investigated chartering but due to nature of beast, can never provide an itinery that's feasible, cost-effective etc

Prefer single seat IFR, short-field ops etc
would appreciate an email from those in the know re approx costs etc
Thinking of J31-type aircraft due to no. seats/range etc
Regards
[email protected]

Ypical trips would be to Spa, Les Mans, Barcelona - near europe racetracks

[TD&H]

Do you mean single crew? If so I'm guessing anything big enough to carry the number of pax you seem to imply will be a two crew aeroplane, J31 etc.

Instead of going ahead and buying and operating the aeroplane you would probably do better getting someone else to the the hard work for you. EG TAG, GAMA, or Air Atlantique. You buy, lease or whatever, they supply crew, operate the aeroplane etc.

Setting up your own operation can be quite a headache. These operators have size and bags of experience to make it all an easy task.

Edited to add: even if you are used to doing it on smaller aircraft.:ok:

[EESDL]

Aircraft we have used in the past has mainly been the King Air.
If it has to be 2-man crew, so-be-it - more crew the merrier as far as I'm concerned!

On the whole, Boss doesn't like using other people's aircraft, would rather buy his own and have it available for when he needs it!

Need to ascertain factors of going too big ie crew numbers, handling, NASP etc

Ta for input

[LDG_GEAR _MONITOR]

if you want someone to fly it and be able to help with maintenance get in touch ! :ok:

[Flying Mechanic]

Get a Beech 1900D!! great performer, good range, a good corporate shuttle. Also lots of headroom. Easy to aquire (plenty parked in the states).....cheers FM

[Daifly]

If chartering isn't turning out to be cost effective, then operating anything like a Jetstream or a King Air will, if the boss wouldn't want to charter it out to other customers in order to maximise his availability, be even more expensive.

Operating Costs on anything out of production, like the Jetstream, are going to be a lot higher than anything that's still being pushed off the line.

1900D are cheap, but a little bit overkill for the places you're looking at - and the performance makes some of the strips you mentioned less possible, particularly Le Mans (IIRC!)

I really can't recommend highly enough speaking to a company which already operates aircraft (I've tried PM'ing you for the advert part of this post but your mailbox is full!) - few of us will charge anything for the advice - your time is valuable, but by not involving people who truly know what they're talking about from direct, daily experience of operating aircraft you stand to lose a whole lot more.

PM me if you want the advert...!

[Looooong haul]

Have investigated chartering but due to nature of beast, can never provide an itinery that's feasible, cost-effective etc

simpel maths:
Cost of operation = x
hours flown by boss = y

cost per hour = x / y

only way to make flying cheaper is increase y. Which is what chartering does. So I have no idea how he can fly cheaper then charter... (unless they have to position the aircraft to Iceland)

can never provide an itinery that's feasible And do you think that an owned aircraft can.. what about flight time regulations and other restrictions...

If he thinks chartering is cheaper than owning he is mad. If he thinks it is too expensive he should fly scheduled. :8

[Chimbu chuckles]

Conquest 2 (C441)

Seats 10 pax.

Will take 2-3 pax 2000nm still air, reserves intact, @ 285+kts at up to FL330...more like 275KIAS at FL330....fill the seats and travel about 500-600nm...again from memory...been a while.

Unlikely to find one RVSM but that's ok as the aeroplane is happiest around FL290.

The C441 with Dash 10 engines about 15kts faster with better everythings.

Lovely easy aeroplane to fly SP.

Trailing link undercarriage will make you look very clever.

Lots of baggage space.

About USD$1.5+ for a nice one.

DOCS in the $600/hr range...from memory but don't ask for that in writing:ok:

My fav turboprop of all time....better than a Citation in many respects....which is why Cessna stopped building C441s.

There is also a Conquest 1, which has PT6s...nice aeroplane but not a patch on the 2.

The 1 is essentially a turboprop C421 while the 2 is essentially a turbine, pressurised, 404.

Out of production about 15-20 yrs but still lots around...no spar considerations.

[BizJetJock]

Actually LH, the general rule of thumb is that if the aircraft will do more than about 200 hours a year owning is cheaper than chartering. This is because the overheads associated with an AOC under JAR-OPS 1 are enough to make people like Daifly cry into their beer..
EESDL, if you have been using a King Air in the past then buying one is a perfectly viable option. They can be flown single pilot, and are dependable workhorses. If it's mainly just your boss and small groups that need moved around, then the light jets (CJ series, Premier 1) are actually cheaper (less expensive!) to operate in the long run, and can do just about everything a KA can except land on rough strips all the time.
As Daifly said, though, there are lots of traps for new operators so talking to someone who's done it before could save thousands of pounds and many grey hairs. Feel free to pm me if you want to talk to someone who has tarted himself for most of the motor racing operations in the country, but isn't advertising for his company!!

Good luck,

BJJ

[TD&H]

EESDL

Although the King Air is a single pilot aeroplane it's far better and safer to fly two crew (been there, bought the t-shirt, for both one and two crew operations).

Advantage of getting someone to operate it for you is that they can generally have crew available to cover for holidays, illnesses etc. plus have experience of running just the sort of flights you need. FW is quite different to RW.

Beware any operators that claim they can put lots of AOC hours on it and make a profit for you, think of forked-tongues. They all just love someone else to buy the aeroplane, pay the overheads then charter it out at low prices to undercut the opposition. In the process giving the owner little chance to fly it when he wants.

I'm sure Daifly can give you honest information (no I don't work for him!). But know exactly what YOU need and let that be the driving controller. How many pax, all the destinations (Le Mans is a bit short for a lot of AOC flights), whether your boss expects the aeroplane and crew to be waiting 24 hours a day at his behest, especially when at a race circuit. Do some homework to estimate just how many flights and hence hours per year, some costs for landing, handling, Eurocontrol charges, flight planning software, crew costs downline (food and beer!).

Going to an AOC operator can mean extra costs, aeroplane and crew working to JAR OPS 1, but if you get a good, professionally run outfit to help you then it will take all the strain, and maybe by letting them operate on charter, when YOU don't need the aeroplane, then some of the costs can be reduced. But the important thing is that YOU must keep total control of when and where the aeroplane operates for your benefit. Find out whether there are any advantages to having the aeroplane NOT on the G-reg.

[EESDL]

Some useful stuff, cheers.
Pretty much confirms my initial thoughts that there is not the one aircraft that can do the job - mainly because the 'job' is hard to pin down - whether it's ferrying a new gearbox to a strip or flying company execs on a factory visit.............

When I mentioned that it has to be cost-effective, please do not take that as being the cheapest option.

Yes, it would be nice if the aircraft made some revenue whilst it was not carrying out its primary duty but that would be a bonus, not it's raison d'etre.

if I haven't replied to your PMs yet, it's because I'm trying to work out how to get down to EGSS in the fog...........................

[flying headbutt]

Why not do it in style and get a Piaggio Avanti? Nice cabin and mega performance too.

[ssg]

First off, I manage and fly a Citation Ultra, which I fly single pilot.
Second I have been managing corporate flight dept. for about 15 years. I fly about 587 hours average a year, in the Pacific Northwest US. So I get it done.

For those that can't cut it single pilot, don't bother writing in.
For those that have never started and managed a flight dept, your opinions are without merit.

Break even points, seat per nautical mile, all this is for the accountants, and only confuse the issue. Charter sucks, in that it is someone else makeing a buck off of you, and only the most desperate of pilots, ie, lack of experience, quals ect tend to go to charter. Fractionals are a step up, but spendy, and again, given the pay, your get pilots that come up short, but make thier case when the Part 91 pilot/manager is totaly imcompetent. They look really good compared to the idiot that can't keep a plane up in the air, can't keep costs down, and doesn't have the ability to fly anywhere, anytime. Fractionals make sense to the flight dept. that flies 75 hours a year, paying to imcompetent pilots to sit around, because the company really doesn't want to fly with them. Its the boss's fault really for hiring these guys.

- Ask your boss what he likes, and research what it will cost.
- Single pilot ops will limit you to turboprops and light jets.
- If he can afford a small jet, flown single pilot, then he can enjoy faster trips, better pressurization, quieter cabin, and weather becomes almost a non issue with the right guy at the controls. Safety? No one has ever crashed a Citation operating under the single pilot exemption. (4050)

I hope this helped, email if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

SSG

www.propilot.us

[Chimbu chuckles]

I had a look in the Piaggio at DXB airshow....very sex beast indeed.

[fishtits]

For those that can't cut it single pilot, don't bother writing in.
For those that have never started and managed a flight dept, your opinions are without merit.

What a plank :hmm:

[Daifly]

Absolutely - come to an AOC operator knowing EXACTLY what you want out of it and be completely honest with us (ahem, them, no advertising of course...). Most of us (them) have heard 100 different reasons for owing business aircraft and hardly any are the same!

We, and others, give good, honest advice - for free! Yep, you heard it here first! Free!! We've got very very little to gain by not being honest and a reputation to uphold to prospective clients - which all seem to arrive by word of mouth. Even if you only need our support during the purchase, the introduction or during the first few months, I guarantee it's money well spent.

The only comment I would make about ssg's post is that things are very different in Europe to the States. Costs aren't the same and there is less support over here. Everyone has something to add (Single Pilot Ops maybe don't require quite as much CRM...) so I wouldn't dismiss people who've not been through a startup before to be without merit.

[411A]

<<quote:
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For those that can't cut it single pilot, don't bother writing in.
For those that have never started and managed a flight dept, your opinions are without merit.
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What a plank :bored: >>

Actually, fishtits, I really do believe you is 'd plank.

SSG's comments are generally spot on, and as I have operated a flight department, they are quite correct.

Aircraft?

C441 (with -10 engines) or a KingAir, 200 or a 300.
The KingAir is quieter, and has generally better short field performance.
Nice machines, these.:ok:

[EESDL]

Shortest 'essential' strip is EBSP 800m 1542' elevation
followed closely behind by (desirable) LFDA 995m 259'

which aircraft does that weed out?

[deing]

I suppose Spa will be a bit short for any AOC operator even with a Beech 200
For private ops it should be OK although still short (although aircraft up to a Learjet 31, Falcon 50 & even a 2000 have landed here in the past)
I think a PC-12 is the best plane for such places

Rgds,
Jan

[His dudeness]

EEDSL: get a B200 with Raisbeck Props, air intake, leading edges and aft body strakes fitted. Where do you wanna go from Spa with which load ?
JAROPS 1 800m no problem up to 2-4 pax (depending on A/C empty weight) in a Rasibecked B200.
If non-Jarops no problem whatsoever.

Knowledge from 4000hours B200 (Serial numbers mainly BB1202 and 1478, both are Raisbecked)

Go for 2 man crew if financially manageable. Done both SH and 2 Crew, 2 Crew is safer in my opinion.

[DA50driver]

Dear SSG:

It appears to me that you have limited experience operating in the European/Russian environment which is what is being discussed. I used to fly King-Airs and Piston ME in the US all the time. I would not consider flying anything single pilot over here. My home base is UUWW, Vnoukovo, Moscow. Until you have a type rating in a swept wing jet and operating experience in Russia your opinions are without merit. I get it done thanks to a good copilot. It would be pretty unsafe to run single pilot around here.

Ever wonder why people think people like you are A..holes?

I don't even know what being a plank is, anyone care to fill me in?

Sincerely,

DA50 Driver
Falcon 900, Falcon 50, Hawker, Citation 650 and the lowly CE-500 type ratings. Oh, and by the way, I am from the US.

[angelorange]

Recommend: PC 12 or B200 - both have similar size cabins and can do it all - dirt strips to major airports. Just look at the companies that use these machines - MAF use PC12 in Sudan, UNDP use the King Air in Similar role. Most Flight inspection / Calibration aircraft wordlwide are King Airs - they are very well built and twin P&W engines are super reliable. B200 will attain F350 but beware of front screen cracking and water in fuel ice issues!

I think B200 operating cost is around 800 GBP per hour (excluding crew costs) - there are some 6000 examples worldwide so spares is no problem. C441 is faster with better range but less reliable and more cramped!

[ssg]

Thanks 441. Yep, Conquest II is a good option, I flew the 425, only because I didn't want to hook up and APU and spin the props after each flight, but I like its range, speed and overall numbers. Good Choice!

DA50,

Most people, including aviation authorities, manufacturers, feel that having a copilot is a backup, just in case, not a neccessary function. You don't need a copilot to read a checklist, unless your illiterate, nor to put the gear down, unless your handicapped ...:)

CRM is a joke, always has been, something that came about after airliners started crashing with the FO telling the captain that they were too low, off course, ect, right before the scene of the accident. With the typical FO on probation, or could be fired at will for no cause, they would actualy hope the captain was right, right down to the thier deaths. Crazy to need a flying job that bad.

Anyway, I do have swept wing time...GIV, Astra SPX, Premier I, impressed? I'm not, two weeks sitting in a box only to go back to a hotel and restaurant food. Anyone can get a type rating, either show up with a credit card or get a rich guy to foot the bill. Not an exclusive club.

While I may vociferous in my support of single pilot ops, I don't feel that two pilot crews are without merit. It's just that in most typical crews you have one guy with the time, and type, and many times the right seater is really light on time and experience, so where's the help? Pouring the coffee? Doing the charts? Ever been up in the air and heard an airliner on the radio and it sounds like a 12 yr old girl sitting up there? I am sure the captain wonders the same, but that's affirmative action for you.

So anyone who feels that a two pilot crew are really the way to go should be able to show me where all the single pilot exempters are crashing, but you wont, they never have.

I talk to crews all the time, and rarely have seen the true redundency, both pilots with real credentials with the weight to take over the aircraft and have the moxy to prove that the other is screwing up and save the passengers..rather then the typical setup we see these days...a typed captain and a lightweight FO who is along for the ride.

Cant tell you how many guys I talk to, who bitch about single pilot ops, only to tell me they run with one set of charts, sometimes with the FO the one telling the capt the numbers...very dangerous, or guys so light on time that when you ask them a simple question they have no clue, so much less are able to tell the experienced captain they are screwing up.

What's really scary? Is guys like you that NEED a copilot, and admit it to everyone. Tell that to your passengers and see the look on thier faces, take pic, we can post it here. :)

Your premise that single pilot ops can't be done is Europe is moot because it's done all the time, you and I both know it, your just not comfy with it.

None the less your entitled to your opinion, and I respect the fact that you recognize your limitations in that you need someone up in the air with you, that's good, I hope your copilot is as good as you say he is. ;)

-SSG

[Bumz_Rush]

I will tell you what a plank is, just call me.... Bumz

[Stan Woolley]

ssg

You obviously consider yourself 'Ace of the Base' but there will always be people better informed and more experienced than ourselves.

The best operators I know are generally the more modest ones.

I have flown airliners for quite a long time now but until very recently did not know anyone who was killed in a Jet transport a/c. As an ignorant youngster I flew single crew night freight in Beech King Airs' for one year and two colleagues were killed in seperate accidents in that time,one of them a close friend.

Turbine two crew and quality training would be my requirement.

(BTW Quality training cannot be assumed at big name establishments IMO)

We are never as clever as we think.

[His dudeness]

ssg, the day I NEED a copilot I will quit. BUT, I sometimes screw up things and I´m EXTREMELY thankful to have a backup with me. And I don´t have a problem to admit that. (most of my passengers know that I´m a human being)

we have a saying over here:
if you don´t make mistakes you´re either a liar or you´re not a pilot.

[EESDL]

There's been some useful input into the thread - and some complete drival!!

You folks bitchin and pissin about having a co-pilot, pi55 off and start your own thread!

Spent many hours flying with and without - it;s not about operational efficiency or about safety or about qudos - it's all about who's going to buy the first beer at your next port of call and the fact that you'll not be having dinner at that sad table for one restaurant:-)

Looking at some J32/B200s whilst over in FLA having a 'Happy Holiday' (now there's a topic for another thread!!) - just got to find the time between waffles and cwouiffffey!

Happy Holidays!!

[TD&H]

EESDL:

Perhaps (once you've managed to get your boss to stump up the money and buy a DC3 for the short strip work and a BBJ for the rest of the job) you can let us know what you get and how you're getting on, and which, if any, AOC operator is helping you. By PM if appropriate.

Good luck and Merry Christmas