Extraordinary rendition

[JessTheDog]

I am curious as to how this works.

I am aware of the principles - someone is captured/abducted, flown to a third country, where confessions are beaten out of them.

However, are there no regulations regarding the transfer of military or civilian prisoners? I was thinking in terms of international or domestic (UK/EU) law or in terms of ICAO rules with regard to flight safety.

I would have thought that a terrorist in transit would have constituted a potential flight safety hazard.

Also, would any amplifying information be required on a flight plan?

[Wyler]

I do not think a terrorist in transit throws up any Flight safety concerns (unless he/they are in the cockpit!).
You would not even have them down as hazardous cargo.
They may be afforded special status but only for reporting purposes. I exceptional circumstances they may even be given non deviatiing staus bit I think that is unlikely.
Far worse things transit through our airspace every day without a fuss being made.

[wingman863]

Far worse things transit through our airspace every day without a fuss being made.

Like what?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

loads of things.... cats, dogs, sheep...

[Training Risky]

To paraphrase Churchill, In war the sanctity of truth must sometimes be protected by a bodyguard of lies.

At least the Spams are doing something proactive about terrorism unlike certain whinging EU states.

[Wyler]

Wingman 863

Politicians, dead footballers etc

[JessTheDog]

They may be afforded special status but only for reporting purposes. I exceptional circumstances they may even be given non deviatiing staus bit I think that is unlikely.


If this is the case, does it not mean the UK air defence system is aware of such flights, blowing a hole in the arguments of Straw etc?

To paraphrase Churchill, In war the sanctity of truth must sometimes be protected by a bodyguard of lies.

At least the Spams are doing something proactive about terrorism unlike certain whinging EU states.

I have full confidence in the ability of Uncle Sam to identify and apprehend the right culprits, and that any information beaten out of them will be of life-saving intelligence value. Sarcasm switch off.

If it's so good, pass a law in Congress and do it in Langley!

[Ali Barber]

I can't believe even the CIA thinks it could get away with that without the most enormous political fallout and, for that reason alone, I'm inclined to disbelieve the story. If some proof does turn up, they have to be off their heads to have even tried it in this day and age.

[Wyler]

For the record, no, the AD system is not made aware of such flights.
My point was that there are procedures available to identify flights of interest, VIP, Casevac, Hazardous cargo etc etc. I doubt we would ever be told about a flight transporting Terrorist suspects.

[JessTheDog]

I don't think the CIA like or approve of this process, hence the frequent leaks. Information beaten out of "suspects" is likely to be useless, and the political fallout would easily counterbalance any notional advantage obtained.

Having said that, the current US administration is not exactly known for making the most intelligent decisions.

[RileyDove]

I don't think the detainees are a flight safety hazard as such .
I guess though they seem to fly in Gulfstream V and Boeing BBJ's
they are probably afforded little in terms of comfort.
Whilst the Americans do indeed seem to be 'proactive' as another poster has mentioned - I was under the impression that
the 'War on Terror' was supposed to make the world a safer place not more dangerous. Certainly Iraq wasn't a nice place to be under Saddam's regime - but it posed a smaller threat to U.K forces than it does now.
As for the rendition flights - I feel the EU will put an end to these aircraft flying through European airspace freely shortly.
Certainly the Austrian's intercepted a civil Hercules which they were suspicious about and I think the rights of passage for these 'black' flights will be curtailed.

[Sunfish]

I would strongly suggest that you read up on your military law and ensure that you have nothing, even remotely, to do with activities associated with "rendition".

My guess is that Messrs Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are going to find it difficult to leave the U.S. without being arrested for war crimes by the time they are removed from office, if of course, they escape jail in the U.S.

The American legislative and judicial systems are stupid, slow and laborious, but eventually the truth will come out and indictments will be filed.

If you are following the news, you might be aware that the American people are just waking up to the fact that the Bush Administration fabricated all the evidence used to justify the Iraq war. Their eventual anger is going to be awesome.

[brickhistory]

quote:
The American legislative and judicial systems are stupid, slow and laborious.....................
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As compared to.....?
As a stupid, fat, overconsuming American, of course I don't know nuttin' 'bout the perfect Australian parliment and HM benches........if I did, of course I would know that they work to the perfect efficiency that a democracy is capable of.


Oh, and perhaps Pres. Bush et al, will invite PM Howard to join them in exile..............

(edited to add in more misspellings)

[mini]

It goes on, we all know that, just don't forget that the drivers etc. will be the ones to take the rap if it ever "comes out"...

I don't need to provide precedent of similar cases.

Feel sorry for the crew in Iceland that were jumped by the local media on walkies to the terminal.

[Twonston Pickle]

Nice to see the press being "objective" and filming "bars" inside an aircraft!? They look a little like cargo nets to me.

[SASless]

AW Heck....Cmon now!

Just look for the big CIA Letters on the side of the Gulf Streams and BBJ's....usually obscured by the Saudi Flag however. You don't for real think all those Princes et al have those fancy bizjets for popping over to the lands of evil for a quick gamble and tumble do you?

Truth is....they are using the airplanes as a Red Herring....they really send them by super tanker.

I fear there is a lot of old lead paint in the Officer Mess buildings you lot frequent from the bovine feces being thrown about here of late.:p

[paulo]

FWIW I think the drivers are civilians (albeit some/all could be ex mil) - they come from Aero Contractors Ltd.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I am aware of the principles - someone is captured/abducted, flown to a third country, where confessions are beaten out of them.


It is curious that so many are ready to assume the worst! Let us suppose that, rather than trying to amend the constitution on how long suspects may be held for interrogation without being charged, and bearing in mind our own government's problem of getting Habeas Corpus suspended for 90 days, the US government has decided to do its interrogating abroad. A smart move which we might consider emulating. And surely the CIA have got beyond crude techniques such as "beating confessions" out of suspects, the use of thumb-screws and electrodes on private parts ? I thought we already had a ruling from the European Court (in the context of IRA suspects) that techniques such as sleep-deprivation, disorientation, and cold water showers fell short of "torture" in the accepted usage of the English language. So, despite the laments of the "bleeding hearts" they do not contravene the Geneva Conventions.

I wish the CIA or someone would take away that screeching spokesperson for "Liberty" and give her a good dousing with vold water!

[Red Line Entry]

It is impossible in today's climate to have a rational discussion on whether torture is ever justifiable in a modern society.

In October 2002, a German detective called Daschner threatened to inflict severe pain on Magnus Gaefgen, the kidnapper of 11-year old banker’s son Jakob von Metzler, if Gaefgen did not reveal where he had hidden the child. Gaefgen promptly admitted that the boy was already dead. Gaefgen was later sentenced to life imprisonment for murder. But here's the kicker - Daschner was prosecuted for threatening the suspect even though no force was ever used.

But let's go one further. A terrorist has been caught red-handed planting a nuclear bomb in London. The bomb will go off in 2 hours and the EOD squad are baffled by it's complexity. The terrorist knows the PIN number will defuse it. He's happy to die so strapping him to the bomb is not an option. Do you permit torture to make him reveal the code or do you consider his human rights are too important to infringe?

At present we have no legal framework that allows torture - consequently, if an extreme situation ever arises, we have no means to deal with it. My own view is that perhaps we should recognise that there are certain circumstances where the infliction of pain on an individual is preferable to the death and maiming of many others.

Clearly, we must be aware of the slippery slope, but this slope is not inevitable. Texas has a death penalty but this does not mean that jaywalkers are executed. It is possible to police and clearly define the limits within which such actions may be permitted. Surely this is better than the netherworld which we have at the moment?

[Grand Fromage]

In war the sanctity of truth must sometimes be protected by a bodyguard of lies

Yes it does! With a threat so asymmetric, intwined in this overly PC society, can our democratically elected government not operate without a modicum of secrecy and discretion?

Sometimes bad things happen to bad men, sometimes we get it wrong but what choice do we have?

GF

[ORAC]

I find it amusing that anyone presumes that one NATO nation is provided with a manifest of the contents of another transiting NATO aircraft.

For civil aircraft, which might be carrying terrorists :rolleyes: it took a long discussion before the EU nations agreed to provide a manifest - the legality of providing same has just been challenged by...... the EU courts....... :hmm:

[paulo]

Red Line...

...it's an interesting debate. Those against (I'm one of them) would say that once you step over the line and say "it's sometimes ok", then you have to define "sometimes".

And the difficulty there is accountability. The very situations you talk about might be things where - for good reason - there is no general knowledge until long long after the event.

By which time transparency has long faded, and thus there is considerable opportunity for abuse. And if an "authority" is viewed to be lacking accountability, it lays itself open to loss of faith. Deepcut demonstrated that.

So my view is that it's better being clear cut. The higher moral ground and all that.

[MarkD]

Wikipedia on Extraordinary Rendition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition)

been around since the Clinton Admin in its current form - it's just the secret prisons (allegedly) that seem to be new.

[BEagle]

Always wondered about those white aircraft with tiny N-registrations I used to see at a certain aerodorme......

It'll be interesting to see what that Septic Harpie has to say to the Germans about the CIA flights to Rhein-Main.

[Heimdall]

My short article on Extraordinary Rendition might be of interest.

www.spyflight.co.uk/rendition.htm

Heimdall

[Monty77]

Redline & Paulo:

I agree, it's an interesting debate and I am in the 'for' camp. Balance the rights of the suspected German kidnapper and the child who is bound and suffocated and tied up under a bridge? The police had very good reasons to believe that the suspect was involved and thought the child could still have been alive. How long are you going to wait? The suspect had abandoned an initial alibi provided by his girlfriend and went on the "I have the right to remain silent" routine. What about the rights of the kidnap victim? The threat of torture solved the problem. It is true that if you physically inflict pain on someone, they will tell you whatever it is they think you want to hear. If the kidnapper didn't know, he couldn't tell, and all you'd get is "I don't know".

Now go to Afghanistan. A vicious and concentrated firefight has been played out in the hills. US Forces vs organized well-armed 'miltia style' opponents equipped with modern infantry weaponry. Militia decide to surrender rather than die. Out they come with hands up, probably quoting the Geneva Convention which has suddenly become convenient, although the last time I looked, Al Qaeda was not a signatory. These men are not car thieves, pimps or misguided youths. They have consciously and deliberately taken the personal decision to engage in an act of war on a battlefield and must now face the consequences of their actions. "I was a primary school teacher on a school trip" does not wash. In days of old, they would have been gunned down.
Lucky for them, they are shipped off to Cuba to enjoy a lifestyle that the majority of humans on planet Earth would consider enviable. At the same time pompous lawyers clean up.

Lawyers and the like will always muddy the waters with 'holier than thou' appeals against the terrible crimes committed against their suffering clients and protests for the 'rights' of a collection of thoroughly unpleasant individuals who were originally bent on death and destruction. It never ceases to amaze me that so much money is spent on this obscene legal industry when it could be put to better use giving sight, life and clean water in Africa to people who would jump at the chance of Guantanamo conditions.

[dallas]

JessTheDog wrote ...would any amplifying information be required on a flight plan?

Something like...

STS/TORTURE FLT

Can't see it taking off to be honest...