"Possible" Missile fired at AA aircraft departing LAX

[Ontariotech]

Came across this on the Airliners chat boards.......Dunno if I can post this link, but here it is anyway.

http://www.kyw1060.com/news_archives_detail.cfm?newsitemid=50753

Is there any more info? I find it hard to believe that a bottle rocket or flare could be confused with a missle? Anyone have any more information?

[cwatters]

A suggestion that it was at 6,000 feet but perhaps not reliable..

http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=28959

[RatherBeFlying]

An old workmate told me of how when he was in high school in Thunder Bay, he inveigled his uncles into machining rocket nozzles "for a science project".

The project departed the shore and was reported by one or more pilots on the approach into YQT:uhoh:

The remains were located on the shore of the Sleeping Giant some 10 km. distant and were not returned by the authorities.

Discussions with the RCMP were concluded with the agreement that the uncles would no longer provide parts without more thorough inquiries and that no further launches would be made that were not in conformance with the Model Rocket Regulations:O

[Intruder]

Hmmm...

Does nobody take into consideration the fact that there is NO local Los Angeles reporting of this rumor -- only rumors from across the country? Maybe the fact that a vendor showed an anti-MANPADS proposal out in Mojave earlier in the month, or a couple people were indicted for alleged smuggling of MANPADS generated he rumors among the professional alarmists...

Has anyone seen ANY CREDIBLE evidence of the "missile shot"?

[bubbers44]

http://www.liveatc.net/listen.php (http://www.liveatc.net/.archive/kont/KONT-SoCal-Nov-26-05-1530.mp3)

Select ONT Socal 26Nov 1530-1600 and listen to the last minute and you wil hear AA 612 saying they saw a rocket pass them. At least they said when asked if it was a flare or rocket that it looked like a rocket. When asked where it was they said half way to the shore line. Amazing the press has kept quiet. Wonder why?

[vapilot2004]

Yes, well I found out about the :mad: thing from you fine people. US news has N-o-t-h-i-n-g (yet) save the Philadelphia TV station.

The AAL flight 216 would have been an MD-83 and the route they took: LAXX5 TRM PKE J78 DRK J96 IRK BDF4.

On 28-11-05, winds were out of the NW 7-14 - Naturally they went out over the Pacific as usual due to the local prevailing winds.

For the 28th DEP/ARR Times: 12:58 PST 18:47 CST

For the 27th DEP/ARR Times: 15:24 PST 21:26 CST


On Nov 27 AAL 612 was 10 miles off Palos Verdes by the time they were at 6000 feet over Santa Monica Bay.

On Nov 28 AAL 612 was about 11 statute miles W of Redondo Beach at 13:22 PST when they hit 6000', once again over Santa Monica Bay.

I've read some conspiracy theorists crying foul about missing radar data for these times. sorry folks, we've got it here:


http://members.cox.net/flyme2thamoon/untitled2.gif

One odd thing I did notice on the radar tracks is a GA aircraft popped on radar a few minutes before AAL 612 departed. Then they descended from about 1500 feet to under 500 AGL where they disappeared from the radar at 12:57:12 PST around where the AAL 612 reported the 'missile'. Curious - helo making a water landing or some millionaire landing on his yacht ?

Thanks for the heads up on this.
regards,
vapilot

[ALLDAYDELI]

VA pilot, thatlooks an interesting web-page.. what is that one? very graphic and informative.

[BOAC]

ADD - right click on an image and select 'properties'.

[napierdeltic]

The radar gif posted by VAPilot shows the tracking for Nov. 28th. The event happened on Nov.26. The ATC audio at LiveATC.com has the pilot reporting a rocket at approx 12:59PST. This audio
archive is dated Nov. 26. But the interesting aspect of VA's post, shows the same "ghosting" effect present in the same flight, two days later, at approx the same time. I have tried to sync the audio with the radar (at the proper date) and the time clocks are off a bit. (in relation to one another) The passengers were held at Chicago by the FBI and only one person on the left window aisle reported seeing the event. (this in addition to pilots) They were asked what they saw 10 to 15 minutes into the flight. The flight was aloft for 4 minutes at the 6200 altitude arrival. According to the ATC tape, the rocket sighting was reported at arount 12:59. (11 min into flight) This puts the sighting very close to shore, near Costa Mesa, between flight level 130 and 170 at my best effort. But the clocks may be off more than perceived. One thing important, the ghosting seems to be a common deal
in the LAX control zone.

[vapilot2004]

Interesting ND - OK so it was 26-11-05 for our intrepid AAL flight 612. Radar data is still avail.

The flight had a scheduled DEP for 12:50PST - radar data shows them airborne at 12:49:37PST. About 2 mins later they are here: (@6000')

http://members.cox.net/flyme2thamoon/1126.jpg

Again about 10 miles W of Redondo Beach over Santa Monica Bay like the day before. Now at 12:59PST (ND's SOCAL VHF report) our MD-83 is 10 statute miles E of Costa Mesa near the 405 freeway at FL190 - Shown here:

http://members.cox.net/flyme2thamoon/1126-59.jpg

Another interesting (e d i t ) occurence ( / e ) on this day is around 12:51PST there is a brief radar trace for a Helo at about 2500AGL which disappears within 5 seconds at exactly the spot AAL 621 is at 6000'. According to the AM news station from PHL, they were over water when it occured. Typical, conflicting reports.

hmmm..... Nothing in the Chicago Tribune on this either yet.......Only the blogs have this story (and ,of course, us) The mystery continues......

[napierdeltic]

VaPilot2004, I took your word for the "Ghosting", I assume it appeared about the same place on the 28th as it did the 26th?
I didn't bother to verify. I guess you would expect the authorities to downplay the incident, but when they said bottle rocket, my BS detector started blaring. Have you ever witnessed the launch of the hobby rocket with the juice concentrate sized motor? It definately gets your attention, it's louder than a Harrier, the ground even rumbles. Someone in the Costa Mesa area heard something around 12:59 last Saturday.

[vapilot2004]

Newest info on the incident:

allegedly from an AA email to a blog/news writer:

- Flight #612 was at 13,000 feet altitude - 7-10 miles offshore.
- Cloud ceiling was at 4-5,000 feet (someone on the ground or on a boat wouldn't have been able to see the aircraft)
- Captain saw straight vertical rocket contrail up to about 6,000 feet
- Rocket was approximately 3-4 miles away from flight #612
- That equals a horizontal separation of about 4 miles and a vertical separation of well over a mile.
- The captain never used the word "missile" and never believed the aircraft was a target of the rocket.

I took your word for the "Ghosting", I assume it appeared about the same place on the 28th as it did the 26th?

ND, They were around the same place. the anomolies I saw on the radar data playback were a GA return around where AA612 was at 6000'.

I've seen some model rockets, but have never experienced one with a juice-can sized engine :uhoh: - does everyone get behind a blast wall for one of those launches ?

rgrds,
vap

[Onan the Clumsy]

I've seen pictures of insanely large ones. Like twelve foot tall :ooh:

[vapilot2004]

- Flight #612 was at 13,000 feet altitude - 7-10 miles offshore.
- Cloud ceiling was at 4-5,000 feet (someone on the ground or on a boat wouldn't have been able to see the aircraft)
- Captain saw straight vertical rocket contrail up to about 6,000 feet
- Rocket was approximately 3-4 miles away from flight #612
- That equals a horizontal separation of about 4 miles and a vertical separation of well over a mile.
- The captain never used the word "missile" and never believed the aircraft was a target of the rocket.


The above is purported to be from American Airlines spokesman
Tim Wagner. Going on the assumption Mr. Wagner is real and the
data is accurate, I offer the radar position of AA612 when at
13,000:

http://members.cox.net/flyme2thamoon/RADAT21.jpg

I do have one problem with the 'AA statement' of a ceiling of 4-5000 feet. It conflicts with this METAR:

METAR KLAX 261950Z 25010KT 9SM FEW017 SCT038 19/12 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP153 T01890117 $

Clearly this shows there was no ceiling - for the non-METAR
reading among us - that would be Few Clouds at 1700 and
Scattered Clouds at 3800 feet.

I've seen pictures of insanely large ones. Like twelve foot tall

:uhoh: WoW - I guess these people have to read FAR 101.21 (among other things I hope) before they can even buy a motor that large ? - OtC - it would be cool to watch (from a safe distance).

[PaperTiger]

Clearly this shows there was no ceiling - for the non-METAR reading among us - that would be Few Clouds at 1700 and
Scattered Clouds at 3800 feet.Not necessarily a discrepancy:
a) if the Capt. saw the whatsit we have to assume he was VMC, so the 4-5000ft figure could have been referring to the top of the undercast.
b) no guarantee the LAX WX reflects the conditions even a few miles away, particularly this time of year with frequent and variable marine-generated obscuration.