OzJet - Business is tough just after 2 days in

[SkyJetJockey]

AUSTRALIA'S newest domestic airline, OzJet, has been forced to cancel a quarter of its flights between Sydney and Melbourne just two days after its launch due to a lack of patronage.

The airline's founder, Paul Stoddart, conceded it had cancelled two of its eight return flights yesterday.

"There is no point flying flights during the day with a couple of people on them," Mr Stoddart told the Herald. The two flights were in the early and mid-afternoon, a time normally quiet for business traffic.

"We just rang the people up and said, 'Would you like to go on an early or late flight?' There was no hassle in it."

Mr Stoddart, however, insisted all was going to plan despite OzJet also being forced to cut fares to fill seats. The airline has cut the price of its standard one-way fares from $305 to $249 from next week until January 31.

He said he knew the business class airline would struggle with a slowdown in corporate travel in December and January.

--------------------
*** Aviation in itself is not inherently Dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly Unforgiving of any Carelessness, Incapacity or Neglect.........

[Mr.Buzzy]

McFly?.... McFly?.... Hello?....Anyone home McFly?...........

bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Buster Hyman]

"Do my eyes deceive me, or is there an echo in the Terminal?":(

[TIMMEEEE]

Mr Buzzy is quite correct.

Irrespective of whether Mr Stoddart owns the aircraft or not, he can only haemmorage cash for so long.
His accountants must be having nightmares!!

The cost of fuel, thirsty old JT8's requiring alot of maintenance and coupled with the friggin obvious slow down over the Christmas/New Year period.......well.

By April/May next year we will see if this outfit is a goer.

[gaunty]

Nah Buster, my ears can see them cleary.:p

[Skystar320]

Although I like his idea of a business only airline he has gone the wrong way personally.

1. Using 30yr + 737-200's with fuel guzzzzzzzzzeling JT9D engines.

2. Started at the wrong time, as someone previous mentioned this time of the year is the slow season. A more suitable time of March/April/May should have been set then they could have 'rode' the dry season.

3. There idea of using BAe 146 is a bad idea, some bad publicity has come from them over the years. Known for there hot and high operational performance these rugged aircraft should be placed elsewhere.

Any other ideaS?

[ur2]

Skystar320, um I don't think they are fitted with a 747-200 engine, the JT9D, but if they were they sure would be a gas guzzler, but fast.

[SAS check]

Geeezz,
I agree with ur2, if you are going to give advice to someone about what they are doing WRONG. Get the facts right.
Just my 2 cents:ok:

[Spotlight]

For my two bob it has been an excellent effort just getting going. AOC, slots and gates are not minor details. Good luck to them.

[Skystar320]

That was my own mistake, sorry about that. Thanks for pointing it out. Now i am shameful

[woftam]

I don't know if it is related to the cancellations or not but one of their A/C was at the terminal in SYD yesterday afternoon with the flaps full down and spoilers up and a ladder at the left wing.
ALL airlines have maintenance problems but if you only have a small fleet it can impact on your operation severely.:uhoh:

[oicur12]

Is this the correct spelling of shadenfreuder?

[Max Tow]

No, it certainly is not.

[Uncommon Sense]

Look back to some of the posts when Virgin started up - they were similar.

Why do we always snip at someone having a go?

Of course there are going to be teething problems.

[Barbossa]

Spotlight - so I guess that we should actually take our hats off to Skase and Bondy - after all they were just 2 good ol' aussie fella's given the business world a go. So what if they stuffed people?

Uncommon sense - you got the right tag that's for sure. Teething problems? Are you serious? Completely missing the bleeding obvious is not a "teething problem".

Woftam - yup, you were right. Slat actuator died - skydrol every which way. Had to bring in the spare to cover the flying - and then they cancelled 2 roundtrips. Said it was because there were no punters onboard, but disguised the fact that they had maintenance woes. Already!

Great airline this one - no punters, maintenance woes, wrong market, wrong product. Stoddart has even beat BG on the whinging stakes - I'm sure Godfrey didnt whine in the first month; Stoddart did it in the first 2 days of operation.

And hey lets remember - its not like his current woes weren't entirely predictable.

And yet another Aussie airline goes down the drain hurting hard working aussies

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Well at least he's prepared to give it a go.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Good luck to him. I really hope they make a go of it. As for calls "they launched at the wrong time" , it's easy to be a 'Monday expert' after the game.

I'm sure they did a lot of market research - I wouldn't start digging the grave yet!

I doubt many businesses launch with a stunning success in the first couple of days!!

[The Edge's Guitar]

I reckon goodluck to Oz Jet and hope it works out for them. That's coming from someone who flies as competition against them:p

[Erin Brockovich]

And yet another Aussie airline goes down the drain hurting hard working aussies
If you don't like the risk then don't apply for a job. At least they pay for your training.

Maintenance woes - He is in the spare parts business.

No punters - It makes more sense to me to cancel a few $250/seat flights than operate at $1 per seat with more bums.

Wrong market, wrong product - Only time will tell. Give it more than a couple of days.

I don't think you guys give Stoddart enough credit. If he wanted to invest in something that loses money then he would have stayed in F1. I also can't believe that anybody would knock a company that is offering a better product/service for less. I personally think it's a great idea. Let me in on the IPO and I'll put money on it.

Go get em Paul.

[Spotlight]

Barbossa

I stand by what I said. Getting to the position that OzJet is as of today is a credit to them. Should you remember some of the previous attempts since deregulation and the forces applied against them i.e, as I said AOC, slots and gates, you might agree.

It may well be that if one were to decide as Stoddart has, to enter the market in Airlines in Australia, now is the time. A lot of the hard work in relation to the above has already been won on the backs of people who even though they had lost their place in the industry understood that the aviation business in this country need not be the preserve of a duopoly.

Shrill comparisons with Bond and Skase escape me. Also again, shrill observations of Skydroll everywhere mean what exactly?

[Sal-e]

I wish Ozjet the best of luck.....early days yet.....who knows, they may be the best airline Austrlalia has seen yet.....in fact, I already think they will be the best airline in Australia.

[jandakotpilot]

A pair of JT9's on a 732 would be fantastic, that could shake a few windows loose!
Still the JT8's make a lovely sound, it will be missed when the AAE 727's retire!

OzJet is a great idea in the world where you get what you pay for! Seeing the QF and DJ service is dead and buried!

Good luck to the gang!

[Meeb]

I don't think you guys give Stoddart enough credit.

You guys crack me up... :mad:

Why don't you just for once look outside into the big wide world and see what destruction this guy has reeked... you have been warned, I just feel sorry for the desperados (and you would have to be to get involved with this charlatan), who will soon be without an income and worse, a debt for an obsolete type on their licence... :(

Erin:

At least they pay for your training

Which has to be paid back.... :mad:

[missy]

During the first week of Ozjet they have encountered some of the more unusual aspects of Sydney Airport. e.g Tuesday: RWY 07 only operations with TWY Golf closed between RWY 16R/34L and TWY Alpha. Friday: RWY 34L for all departures (RWY 34R closed for departures due pavement failure). TS most afternoons.

I wish them well, perhaps ATC could enthusiastically embrace them like they did with Compass (Mark I).

[MONK]

Meeb.......you only have to pay back the training if you leave during the bond.....

[BankAngle50]

I’m guessing GOD will just sit back and let them hemorrhage by themselves, before applying the commercial pressure. Perhaps a summer in-flight shutdown or RTO compliments of the JT8-D may speed the process?

Rumors that DJ will install J next year. If this happens, it’s hard to see how they could compete with QF+DJ with lounges, frequency, OTP, Points, etc… What happens to Ozjets’ schedule when a plane goes tech? :ugh:

In anycase, ill still my original prediction of 6 months. So that’s a late May shut down. :ok:

[MONK]

Just out of interest....why are some people so keen for Ozjet to fail?......isn't is a good thing if Ozjet succeeds?.....just means more jobs and more choices for travellers?.....and not just jobs for airline staff but contractors....cleaners....catering etc.....surely this is good for the economy?.......

[gaunty]

MONK probably if there was a nett input.

All we are talking about here is a cynical attempt at redistribution of high revenue income and employment amongst the airlines.

I'm not so sure everyone is keen for them to fail either, just that they don't think that backwards is the way to go.

If they were introducing new low fares, new equipment and infrastructure that would stimulate nett new business fair cop, we already have a pretty vigourous market there.

The nature of the setup is such that there is no long term commitment beyond some "words".
Exit strategy is the aircraft go to the desert and get parted out and hopefully the creditors get out square and the pilots are forgiven a debt for an obsolete type on their licence...

The only benefit might be that QF and DJ will get off their hands in regards to "J" class and my reading of Australians tells me when the fare difference gets down to double digits and/or the service goes ballistic, that's where they will go.

And the next boom bust cycle starts, which in my book = nett loss to everyone. There is IMHO, much to be said for an orderly market in these things.

Win lose or draw, it will not be us but the business and novelty market that Stoddart reckons he has sussed, who will be the final arbiter of his bona fides.

[Chimbu chuckles]

3. There idea of using BAe 146 is a bad idea, some bad publicity has come from them over the years. Known for there hot and high operational performance these rugged aircraft should be placed elsewhere.

WOT!!!!:}

Skystar320....have you ever seen one up close let alone flown one?

Placed elsewhere?

The only logical place for the Fischer Price Starlifter is a kiddies playground....at sea level on an ISA day!!!!

Rugged hot an high performer BWAhahahahahaha:{ :uhoh: :ugh: :}

[RENURPP]

Chuckles,

a 146 -200, and you remember what they were like, can lift more than a 717 out of Alice.

I joke, not!

[criticalmass]

On 2 Dec I observed one of the Ozjet 737-200s departing on runway 07 at YSSY. It was quieter than I expected - I assume the JT-8Ds had to be huskitted to meet noise requirements for the AOC anyway. They were a little bit smokey, although not as bad as some 727s and Diesel 9s I recall seeing truckin' on out of Honolulu airport a few years ago.

Nice paint job, too. Since the owner is in the spare parts business then perhaps the maintenance issues won't be such a concern, although I understand spares for JT-8Ds are very pricey, but all the same it appears odd to me that these old -200s are being pitted against the 737-NGs, albeit targetting a very restricted class of pax and only at certain times of the day.

As for the airframes, again if the maintenance is kept up and the cost of parts doesn't escalate too much then they may prove to be money-earners.

I honestly don't know how they will go. But, if I were an aviation enthusiast, I'd get some good photographs of the aircraft while you can - just to be sure.

You can't take any new pictures of Compass 1 or Compass 2 or Ansett livery any more.

[MONK]

Gaunty.....

I see your point......for my my part I hope it works for everyone....Qantas....Virgin....and Ozjet......I think it will be good for all concerned.....airline staff....contractors.....ATC staff......consumers.....and even the Tax man!!!:O

[Skystar320]

Chimbu chuckles,

Your comments are noted. I have been around inside those BAe 146 of Ansett's and even managed to sit in the cockpit while dead - heading in those good old days (abeit very rare) but the pilots were complaining bitterly about their 'hot and high performance'

I remember back in 1997 I think while based in Sydney for a while it was common to see Ansett's BAe 146-300's VH-EWS & EWR run the SYD-OOL run while the competetion ran 737's. These aircraft were not ideally suitable for the kind of runs stick em in Perth and let them do the Mining charters, which there good at.

I cannot really see why Ozjet would want to touch the BAe146's especially when these aircraft have had a bad name in the Australian Aviation. There thinking of placing them on the Canberra runs? anyone shed light on that?

But what could they have chosen in place of the 146's? The Fokker 100's? you can still pick them up quite cheaply around the place. But when you have aircraft that are on your doorstep at a low purchase price, he could do no wrong!

I agree on the other person's post BankAngle50, he has chosen the wrong time of the year, and with losing cash like this well are we going to see another Ansett ?

I shall rest my case

[Buster Hyman]

Skystar320 Whilst I'm not privvy to OzJets plans, I think he'd intended the 146's for runs into places like Moorabbin etc. Secondary airfields.

They might be on the backburner as this didn't really take off...happy to be proven wrong. (I was wrong once before you know!):ok:

[Skystar320]

Yeah i thought as much, he was going to use them to serve secondary markets but it did'nt really take off do to the 'uproar' of some residence at the local airport.

But why still use them? when i guess (correct me if i am wrong) the 737-200's are cheaper to operate?

Skystar320

[Deejay 1]

Well it is indeed a brave effort to get this up and running, so hats off.
But does anyone recall where Minardi, his old F1 team generally finished in the races and/or championship season?
The only time I think they scored points was at Indy this year AFTER all the Michelin teams had a huge dummy spit and went home.
The correlation between F1 and an airline? Other than both can go pretty damn fast..................

[GT-R]

Skystar320 you really need to learn when to use their, there and they're.

[Skystar320]

I always stand to be corrected!

[F/O Bloggs]

Renurpp,

The 717 can lift more than a 146-200 out of Alice.

[Dambuster]

Judging by what the media reports about Ozjet slashing fares (yet again) and making more changes to their timetable, I would say their research and marketing leaves alot to be desired.

I believe they have totally misread the market.

I would like to see them succeed, but in all honesty I think their financial managers and accountants must be having headspins as one punter quoted previously.

Agree that Easter next year will be crunch-time.

[dodgybrothers]

so the 717 should, what 115 seats compared to 70 odd?

[king oath]

To paraphrase that great American philosopher Billy Bob Thornton, " You may love aviation, but aviation aint necessarily gonna love you back. Sort of like a German girlfriend."

[OZcabincrew]

great to see it up and running meaning more jobs created in the industry, but i must say, the ads are kind of cheap and tacky. My dad showed my one day (someone who has no idea as to the industry) and commented that at first he thought it was an ad for a $2 shop kind of thing! hahaha.

[Captain Can't]

heard a few days back on SYD app;
'ozjet123, you are 3 miles right of the 229 radial and diverging, turn left for a pilot intercept of the 229' INS drift??

[Buster Hyman]

Maybe they should have stayed in ADL & pioneered the new terminal?

[Capn Bloggs]

Dodgy,
so the 717 should, what 115 seats compared to 70 odd?
Please explain how the number of seats on an aircraft affects the uplift capability under hot and high conditions eg Alice.

Thanks.

CC,
INS drift??
Garmin 100 supplied by...dodgy brothers! :p

[dodgybrothers]

Bloggs,

your FO (bloggs) said the 717 can lift more than a 146-200 out of alice, you would hope so! its got nothin to do with the amount of seats, but if you couldn't carry more, why would you change types? and please no space between the dodgy and brothers, Authur gets offended.

[Beer Can Dreaming]

Just heard an Ozjet radio commercial with Paul Stoddart telling us that he has special discounted seats until Jan 06 between SYD and MEL for the wonderful price of $258 each way.
But wait for it.......you can carry on 20 kg of hand luggage!

Give me the QF/VQ discount fare anyday.

[Wirraway]

Fri "Sydney Morning Herald"

More mechanical problems cut OzJet flights
By Scott Rochfort
December 9, 2005

AFTER a bumpy first week in the air, Australia's newest domestic airline, OzJet, has encountered more mechanical problems which delayed two flights between Sydney and Melbourne yesterday morning.

The airline blamed the cancellation of a peak hour service out of Melbourne and another out of Sydney on a faulty "hydraulic pipe".

But OzJet founder Paul Stoddart hit out at the media's reportage of his airline's teething problems, saying journalists paid little attention when Qantas and Virgin Blue cancelled flights or had technical problems.

"If out of 100 flights a week you end up with one problem it's quite normal," Mr Stoddart said. He complained how a leaking hydraulic pipe could warrant media coverage while a cracked window on a Virgin Blue flight last week barely made it into the newspapers.

He questioned why the Herald was interested in a cancelled OzJet flight while he could "see cancelled [flights] from the opposition". At the time Mr Stoddart made the comment, around 10.30am, Qantas or Virgin Blue had cancelled no flights between Sydney or Melbourne yesterday.

According to the latest Bureau of Transport Economics figures for September, Virgin Blue cancelled 0.2 per cent of its flights, Jetstar 0.2 per cent and Qantas 1.2 per cent.

Mr Stoddart initially blamed the cancellation of four OzJet flights last Thursday on the lack of demand for midday services. The airline has since rejigged its timetable. However, last Thursday's delays were put down to one of OzJet's 30-year-old 737-200s having mechanical problems on a wing flap.

Mr Stoddart said OzJet knew it would always have a few teething problems and have a tough time attracting business passengers during December and January.

"We've really budgeted for the losses," he said. He declined to say how much the airline was losing.

OzJet's latest statements about its business plan staying intact do not explain why the airline has sharply changed its previously stated policy of not undercutting Qantas and Virgin Blue's fully flexible fares.

Last month OzJet said it was not planning to lower its ticket price below $305 one-way.

It is now selling one-way tickets for $249.

=========================================

[speedbird23]

This guy has been running aircraft in Europe for years. Over there he would have atleast 30 companies to compete with. He has 2 out here, and if this forum is to be believed they are not very good! I think he knows what he is doing.
As for the aircraft, how many passengers would know the difference between a 737-200 and 737-800. Unless they had the wing tips on them(which not all do I believe) they couldn`t. Geeze none of my pax know my Cessna was built in the 70`s!!!

[F/O Bloggs]

dodgybro,

I was merely correcting RENURPP's statement.

Bloggs

[Buster Hyman]

Dear Mr. Stoddart.

Every new venture in this little fishbowl we call Oz is seen & examined critically by the media. Every little slip up that Virgin, Compass & Impulse had was widely reported at the time of their start up phase. Jet* has gained significant air time with their check in policy, as you may well have read.

I suggest that rather than "Doing a Brett", as we say in the industry, you just knuckle down & get your product right, rather than whineing about the attention. Besides, media savvy people crave this sort of attention & the really clever ones turn it in their favour!

Suck it up & get it right! There are too many people counting on you!

Cheers,

Buster.

[Escape_Slide]

What a load of carap Buster Hyman.

You work for the paper Wirraway? Looking at all your posts you appear to be a journalist. This is a pilots forum.

The airline is losing $88K per day.

[Buster Hyman]

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/stupids.gif

Gee, eloquent, succinct & to the point.

I thought it was just crap...carap must be something really special! I'll take it as a compliment!:ok:

[amos2]

Err!...I thought "carap" was possibly "half crap" Buster!...

but just maybe, it might be "twice crap"...

but what would I know? :sad: :sad:

[TIMMEEEE]

Escape Slide - your posting sounds to me like a load a carap (sic). !!

I agree 100% with Buster H that Mr Stoddart should stop his Godfrey-esque whinging and just get on with the job.

Get your own house in order I think is the expression.

[The Voice]

Steady on Escape Slide - Wirraway is a long term and much respected member of the Pprune community and is blessed to be one of very few people who legitimately posts (links to) various articles from the print media.

He's NOT a journo, and doesn't really need to be lumped into that category from seemingly a junior poster.

Going to miss him and Mrs W. next saturday night .. :ugh:

[GoGirl]

Seems The Voice got up a little earlier and beat me to it!

Regards to the Wirra's ;)

the term "pull yer head in" comes to mind Escape Slide


Cheers
GG

[VH-RMV]

Did anyone else see the words 'OZJET' emblazoned across the Melbourne sky this afternoon?

[Buster Hyman]

I did RMV "OZJET $249" he then wrote "BOSE"...I had a BBQ at my place & we joked, when he started BOSE, that he was probably about to drop the price!!

[apache]

At the time Mr Stoddart made the comment, around 10.30am, Qantas or Virgin Blue had cancelled no flights between Sydney or Melbourne yesterday. (note MY bolding)

How is this relevant ?

Let's talk about how many they had cancelled across their WHOLE network ?

I reckon we should be SUPPORTING these new guys, rather than talking them down. you never never know, maybe they will offer YOU a job one day!
As pilots, we should be encouraging more aircraft, and more jobs... leave the politics of running an airline to the beancounters.
Who really cares how old the airplane is? if it is SAFE, then there should be no problem!
More jobs , I say!

[Manuel Reversion]

Buster , you use to be so AN now you are so QF so tragic.What happened to that nice young boy! GO PIES:ok: :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

Normally, I don't reply to Collingwood supporters...http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/hmm.gif...but I'll make an exception today!

I might suggest you have a little search to see I'm not a big fan of QF either...but I'm sure you have better things to do. I'm still very much AN & I'm even looking at my AN 762 model on my desk here...(Sad? Yes)...but I refuse to subsidise stupidity! So, as we are all entitled to an opinion, I'll give mine for the little value it is worth.

While we're at it, I'll give Mr. Stoddart an idea. I'm sure the service & comfort on his aircraft is rather good, I'm also sure that if people tried it, they'd probably like it & return. So, why not offer an incentive to the former AN FF's out there? Be it a fractional redemption of points or a half price offer with proof of FF status...something. There's quite a pool of former AN FF's out there that he should be attracting. Most were at AN because they preferred it, others were in both QF & AN's, whatever. He needs to get people onboard to try his product and if it's the right product, he'll keep them.

Just a thought.:ok:

[Manuel Reversion]

Sorry about the QF dig Buster. I m with you with regard to oz jet providing opportunities for the casualties of 2001.The next six months will tell. :O

[rescue 1]

Buster, quite a quirky idea!

Got some real merit

[Buster Hyman]

Manuel, I was more upset about the Pies reference to be honest!:p

R1. If I was starting up an airline, I'd be doing something like that...Now, I wonder why the bank won't give me a loan?:confused:

[alangirvan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the time Mr Stoddart made the comment, around 10.30am, Qantas or Virgin Blue had cancelled no flights between Sydney


Surely the big difference between two big airlines (compared with Ozjet) is that if one of their planes does let them down at a major airport they can wheel in a replacement aircraft at short notice, and the public will not know there has been a problem. At the smaller airports, the competition will provide the back up aircraft if your plane lets you down.


When you are starting an airline with three planes, surely you have planned what you will do if one of the planes lets you down, and your other planes are at another city.


If you are carrying business travellers, it matters that you carry them on time - a three hour delay may waste the whole trip for them, and that will be the last time they give you a chance.

Sometimes, the Ozjet Duty Manager may have to hope that the Qantas/VirginBlue or J* Duty Manager is in a friendly mood and that they will carry Ozjet passengers for an amount that Ozjet can afford to pay them.

[Escape_Slide]

Our boy has lost the plot. Put the fares up boy, not down. Remember the slogan that you built the airline on!!!



Go Ozjet.....

[turbantime]

Just been noticing OZjet aircraft asking for non-RVSM levels.

What is required instrument wise for an aircraft to be RVSM approved?

My limited understanding is that two transponders plus a crew ground course/endorsement is required.

[Chilli Muscle]

This Ozjet discussion has gone from " They will never get off the ground , never get an AOC , never get approval to operate the 200 , BLAH BLAH BLAH ! " to now a question of how long they will survive.
A few slices of humble pie have been consumed to date on the back of baseless personal opinions.

How safe do the Virgin pilots feel with Patricks snout in the trough to the tune of $162 million dollars. Almost $60 million over the years profit not including the dividends to the other 38% of shareholders. Their aircraft are leased - Ozjets are owned.

And lets not forget what a complete F up Virgin was in its early days. Are Ozjet even close to having passengers lined up for 200m outside a donger in the pissing rain . Did anything run on time ?.

Ozjet is a great example of guts and determination that has been undertaken by certain individuals using private capital at huge personal risk.

For the sake of the industry in Australia I hope they survive - after all its good for pilots having the choice of a 3rd operator.

:ok:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Anyone have an update on their passenger numbers?

[chockchucker]

I've heard of some flights going out with loads of as low as ten.

It's going to take some patience and deep pockets to make this thing work.

[soldier of fortune]

this company needs to survive -although i think they are paying pretty average ie(**** wages) the industry needs a third operator to squeeze in there and keep the bastards honest. Ie virgin and qf--- having known some one close to heartbeat-their LOADS HAVE BEEN PRETTY DISMAL some as little as 4 and 5 .only a handfull of flights have just broken even- highest loads around the thirties . from what i know and have heard if they can hang in there -stody is looking at replaceing the 732 with 733s and is trying to cut a deal now- some to be scraped as parts and some to be leased and some to find there way to oz jet.
some of the things they must learn and i feel they don't grasp yet are 1.marketing--2.dispatch reliablity ----3 frequency--4 yield management--some of their people should study those because its ****.
any way good luck to oz jet i hope you can hang in there and survive

[Capn Bloggs]

Saw the ad on the telly last night: not very convincing.:confused:

[sinala1]

How safe do the Virgin pilots feel with Patricks snout in the trough to the tune of $162 million dollars. Almost $60 million over the years profit not including the dividends to the other 38% of shareholders. Their aircraft are leased - Ozjets are owned.
Just out of curiosity, where do those figures come from? (Genuine question).

In the interests of clarity, VB have been purchasing aircraft for some time now - they have a mixed owned/leased fleet.

[clownfish]

turbantime, a lot more than 2 transponders is required. Each aircraft will require proving that it can operate to the ICAO standard for the reduced separation. This costs $$$ to get the initial approval as well increased maintenance.

[TOPC]

So when do we get OZJET into BRISBANE ?
Flew back Virgin last week and I am really over the Virgin fun thing.Although the pantiless / no visible pantilines were good ,Im STILL over it.

I WANT SPACE...and a reasonable feed. So lads when are you coming to BNE..... I will give you a go.
:ok:

[Triple 7]

Its a cut throat business here, may the fittest or the biggest bank balance win.

[Escape_Slide]

We budgeted for it, it's tough to do, but we've taken this approach that we'll get as many people on board as we can to convert them.”

Who writes stuff like this ????

[Eastwest Loco]

Doing due diligence, I have been making my Sydney and Melbourne corporate clients aware of O7's existence, and guess what? 75% said "who?".

That amazed me. When I delivered the base details of the service, along with the market entry fare, the reaction was very positive.

I am no marketing guru by a long shot, but feel Ozjets efforts have not been advertising in the right segment if this level of ignorance is standard.

Matty - give me a call. I may be able to give you some of the more effective avenues Eenie Weenie used when dinosaurs ruled the earth. 1800 067 207 or 0419 323989.

The rat and DJ cutting commission, O7 coming in at 5% (and auto accrediting us) go you good noisy smoky Fat Albert thing!!! Cant wait for the 146-300s to come on line. Matty - please tell me they are the ex EW girls. There was never a better loved and cared for fleet in the history of the type.

Best all

EWL

[soldier of fortune]

can't agree with you more loco. at a bbq with friends tonight -many of whom are frequent flyer's i spoke to them about oz jet and guess what no one has heard of them - but after i explained what their pitch is and their service levels- many were interested-their marketing is --well is just not there. -they need to spend at least 10 to 20 million$$$$ - alot of money yes but the stakes are high...

[Eastwest Loco]

Yes soldier

They have some very effective ads, but the only place I have seen them was on either SBS or Sky.

There needs to either be a targeting of corporate agencies, business newspapers and the wealthy retired (and there is a shizen load of them aound) to get the message out.

Third busiest air corridor in the world, definitely room for one more and very different product.

It is always hardest to effectively target your market in the expensive environment of MEL and SYD.

Best all

EWL

[Escape_Slide]

I have to agree.

It seems they botched their marketing opportunity.

A lady I sat next to on the Skybus at Melbourne the other day said, she was flying twice a week from Sydney with her firm and although she had heard of them and seen the ad at the airport, her firm was not prepared to take the risk with the unreliable service, noting that an airline that doesn't offer business class flights on Christmas Day and cancels flights on an adhoc basis is not in the running. She said that there was nothing attractive about Ozjet that would make it compelling enough to travel with them. When you keep finding no flights on the web, you conclude they cannot be serious about serving the market.

When it comes down to it, the airlines effort has been strongly focussed on agency support. However, it is a known fact, in noting the experience of Jet Star and Virgin Blue, a high percentage of tickets are sold on line. To get people to go on line, you need to push the advertsing quite strongly and keep your flight frequency high so people have a choice. Marketing in this way to the general public is very difficult, I would imagine, because the target market is the business passenger that only forms a small percentage of the wider audience.

My gut feeling is that the airline is making a lot of mistakes and will go out of business. The BAe146 will just add to their woes.

[flywatcher]

EWL

Ron, you are so right.

[Eastwest Loco]

Escape

A well maintained front line 146-300 generally performs faultlessly as the LAMEs can stay one step ahead of her. It is when they are the bottom end of a diverse fleet that they go pear shaped. Think of a Triumph Stag soft top - wonderful car but a 50%er in on road time - unless you have your mechanic months ahead of it.

The Lucas electrical crap in the wing root is always a problem, but usually "getroundable".

They fly like a brick but they land gently and the punters adore them.

A lovely quirky aeroplane.

I wanna ride - particularly if they are my old Eeenie weenie girls!!

Best all.

EWL

[MONK]

Hey Escape.....

I think every airline makes mistakes.....especially new start ups......just hope that they learn from their mistakes and make it better.....whether it be advertising.....schedules......service......what ever........qantas/virgin have made mistakes along the way....and they've learned from it and made their operations better better....hope Ozjet does the same

Do you really want it to go out of business or succeed?......

[Zigzag]

But in the unlikely event O7 end up operating 146's (my understanding is that it will be an all 737 fleet), they wont be the ex-EW ones (at this stage).

ZK-NZG & J were on their way to Europe (EAAC) six months ago, but have sat idle since. Whether they eventually go, and by extension, return to Ops in Aust is anyone's guess.

[Eastwest Loco]

Bugger!

I imagine the standards set by EW made our aeroplanes most saleable. There was not one thing wrong with AN AMD, but when you get abusive phone calls because a scratch appeared on an F27 at your port, you know the guys and girls loved the green and gold ladies.

I just hope they are all still operating and in good condition.

Best all

EWL

[TOPC]

EWL. Spoke to someone that flew with them last week .Said the whole trip was great .Staff were excellent .Check in was super quick .Aircraft were not noisy inside .Well fitted out. Comortable .Service was brilliant .All on time .Totally pleasant experience...
SO:-
Why oh why is the marketing SO SHI*THOUSE.
Mr Stoddart you REALLY need some PROFESSONIAL help to market your company .
You have a good product . You have the wrong promoters . Get it right .Simply put get the right people to sell this ..............or you will fall on your face.
Good luck.

[Escape_Slide]

I'd have to again agree on your comments TOPC, the promotion is hopeless but whether or not it's recoverable is any ones guess.

I don't seriously want to see Ozjet fail, but Stoddart has made it blatantly clear he doesn't wan't to be told what to do. That may be his undoing and it wouldn't be the first time a start-up has gone down the gurgler because of this sort of attitude.

I reckon if he sticks with 737s he will eventually do alright. Ozjet will never be a big airline though. I think if he just keeps his fleet to 4 aircraft, he wont be annoying too many people and he will make good money from it. He should stay on Mel-Syd and not reach out any further because their is no market to sustain the high overhead of the additional sectors.

For your information, all the remaining Ansett BAe146 are being returned to the UK and being parted out by BAe Systems. There is no arrangement with Ozjet.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

A little bird tells me OzJet managed the last 15 days with 100% on time performance. :ok:

[Escape_Slide]

Come on PAF you know that is karap. They had no flights yesterday for a start.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Yeah.. so they weren't late yesterday were they?? :}

Seriously though, I should have said I was e-mailed that on Friday :D (maybe Saturday.. can't remember)

[Escape_Slide]

Yeah, funny if you look at it like that I guess.

I don't think anyone is trying to f**k Paul Stoddart up but I think he has seriously misjudged the market. The airline appears valueless as it stands and I think Paul runs the risk of losing his credibility over it. The AOC isn't worth anything to anybody because new CASA rules require new corporate responsibilities to be part of holding the AOC. So if Ozjet gets new owners, they will have to demonstrate to CASA everything that Paul had to do.

What I would do if I were Paul, is run only one service each way in the morning and the afternoon and do that every day 365 days a year.

Dep Mel 0715
Dep Syd 0715
Dep Mel 1830
Dep Syd 1830

Use 2 aircraft and keep a third as a spare. (He owns them so no big deal.)

No Brisbane or Adelaide etc.

Crews are paid by the hour Casual.

F**k I was doing paid-by-the-hour in Vietnam so its not bad once you are used to it. Regular ops allows flexibility to do other work.

[amos2]

Seeing that you're on first name terms with Mr Stoddart, Slide, why don't you just ring him and give him the benefit of your great knowledge?

Why waste your time telling us and not him?

[Escape_Slide]

You should practice what you preach amos2. I believe you posted this on PPRUNE recently:

"ACA & Ansett!
Did you see it on Telly tonight?...

how embarrassing! "

"Well, I don't think any deficiency has been fixed, with all due respect Buster, (being a Bombers supporter and all that!) and I'm not too sure that there was any deficiency to be fixed in the first place.

Any company going broke, for whatever reason, has a devastating affect on staff and shareholders. If it happens to be caused by mis-management or some one sticking their fingers in the till it hurts even more!

But, the bottom line is, it has happened before and will happen again and is no different than any other investment you might make in life!

Should we talk about HIH, Harris Scarfe, One Tel and many others where many people lost jobs and/or heaps of dough and received no Government support? Sure, I know our PM helped his brother Stan out a few years ago, and, many years ago, the Victorian state government imposed a fuel levee to assist the share holders of Farrows Pyramid Society, at taxpayers expense. That was wrong then as any support for Ansett, at taxpayers expense, is wrong now!

Lost money on a property investment or on the share market recently? Expect the Government to help cover your losses? Yeah, sure you do and so do I but,...in our dreams!! "

Yeah mate in your dreams.........

Go post your karap on some other forum.

Escape Slide it is not necessary to be adversarial neither is it allowed in the rules to tell another to sod off nor call another posters efforts karap. They are equally entitled to post their thoughts as well. They may feel your posts are karap but they are, nonetheless entitled to theirs. BTB there is in civilised social intercourse a not unimportant concept called context. I am because of the season feeling benevolent, so put a sock in it eh

[Zigzag]

For your information, all the remaining Ansett BAe146 are being returned to the UK and being parted out by BAe Systems.

Not true (at this stage, anyway).

There is no arrangement with Ozjet.

Not directly - maybe indirectly though.

[Escape_Slide]

As I recall Woomera, amos2 was trying to bin you so maybe youv'e been too benevolent. :eek:

*************************************************

On another subject about Ozjet, did any one see the interview with PS on TV? April 30 seems to be D-Day. He is getting some good review on his website though so at least that is a start.

[Buster Hyman]

neither is it allowed in the rules to tell another to sod off
Do you mean all of Pprune or just Dunnunda Big W? Because Danny told me to recently...:} :ouch:

[TOPC]

Escape,
April 30th is D DAY for what ?Shutting Shop ?
If so, he doesnt seem fair dinkum about giving it a good shot .
That would be less than 6 months .Who would risk buying a ticket with them ?:mad:

[Escape_Slide]

Frankly I think he should not be saying stuff like that. He has everything to lose and nothing to gain from telling the press stuff like that.

I went to the website tonight and if you try to find flights too far in advance there is nothing. I mean if I were flying I would want some sort of assurance it was actually going to go. But I guess if he is assuming business passengers don't book that far in advance then it doesn't matter.

With his cancelling flights at short notice, that must be disturbing a lot of business people.

[Eastwest Loco]

Hi Slide

I went to Sabre just now, and schedules are loaded until late September at least and saleable.

One thing we need to remember is that O7 is a start up carrier in a very different market sectot to QF and the "bus with wings" market. This is the years ultimate dead time. Cutting back flights makes sense.

Logic would have decreed reducing flights further out, but when you do not have a past performance model to work on it is a very hard call.

If we give them a bit of a break, and a 12 to 18 month period to fine tune themselves, I think they will be just fine.

If Paul is willing to ride the lows, the market is big enough to provide some highs for him and O7.

I personally think a premium economy product for 50% of the aeroplane may well be a good idea, but we will see.

Matty - please give me a hoi when you get a chance.

Best all

EWL

[VH-Cheer Up]

This morning's news is that OzJet is offering "twofers".

That's right folks, buy one ticket, get one free, roll up, roll up, take a mate with you, or else have a free second ride on OzJet. All the fun of the fare!

In the old days that used to be called a 50% discount.

This is how to build market share amongst the price conscious, not loyalty amongst the value-concious. When will they ever learn?

VHCU

[Guppy Driver]

Hmm - with all respect, not so sure I'll agree with you on that one VHCU.
The whole concept they're chasing is "word of mouth", highly relevant in this case as you really need to get people ON BOARD, to experience the unique OzJet product. Business people often travel together to meetings, conferences etc. and a "two-for-one" could be what a company's bean counter / secretary or whoever is responsible for organising travel for staff, need - in order to be swayed to give OzJet a go. Once they have tried it, the pressure to keep using OzJet will come from the business travellers themselves, because there is just NO comparison between the OzJet First Class leather recliner comfort and legroom combined with their customer focus, to what the other guys are offering. I'll admit straight away that I'm just a bit biased in their favour, but wishful thinking aside -if they can get the marketing right (targeting non F1-fans as well;-))- OzJet will be there for the long run.

[nomorecatering]

The biggest mistake Paul Stoddard made was not having East West Loco as one of his senior managers if not as chief.

[56P]

Now that QF have pulled the plug on HMI, perhaps Ozjet should consider a weekly service there?

[Sonique]

56P you must be talking to the people I have been talking to.

Apprently ozjet (07) are to begin SYD-HTI services with the new aircraft that has just arrived.

They are also looking to form affiliations with QF business travel.

[QF Quoll]

nomorecatering do you want another Bryan Grey ??

[qcc2]

just my two cents on O7. three blokes of last weekends barbie gave 07 a try and here is their feedback. they are all qf pl ff.
no valet parking
no club lounge
not enough flights
no ff points sytem.
paul (i really dont know him) will find it hard to always fill 60 business seats daily.
remember most ff are corporate suits. they want to use the points on leisure, sometimes with the family, or on overseas trips upgrades,etc.
qf should subcontract 07 what they do doing peakhour shuttles and using the qf system to support it.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Look what showed up in my inbox:
OzJet Attains A Perfect Score For On-Time Flights Over Past Month.
OzJet, the new airline that has upgraded travel between Australia's two biggest cities, has achieved a perfect on-time record for its flights over the past month.
Setting new industry-leading standards, OzJet said today all its 173 flights on the Sydney-Melbourne route between December 16 and January 15 had departed on time.
OzJet only began operations late last year and in its first full month of operation, December, had a 92 per cent on-time departure performance record.
Flights that leave within 15 minutes of scheduled departure times are classified as on-time by the industry and Australian carriers traditionally achieve percentages in the high 80s.
"We're very pleased and proud to have achieved a 100 per cent on-time record in the past month," OzJet chief executive Hans van Pelt said.
"As the newcomer to the market, travellers are just getting to know us - but the great thing is that they are getting to know that OzJet is the most on-time airline, while also offering comfort and service not previously available to them at affordable prices.
"We only started flying on November 29 and, after the inevitable few teething troubles in the first few days, it is immensely satisfying that we have established ourselves as a very reliable carrier on one of the world's busiest air routes.
"Combined with the ease of boarding and disembarking a jet that has a maximum of only 60 passengers, OzJet is the airline that gets you there on time.
OzJet is enjoying much higher passenger loads since the introduction of its two-for-one special last Monday.
The two-for-one allows travellers buying any OzJet ticket until January 31 to get another equivalent journey - for themselves, a friend, relative or colleague - for free, to be used by February 28.
The offer makes travel between Australia's two major cities, in luxury and with superior service, as cheap as $249 return for the next few weeks.
"Australians are now getting to see and experience that OzJet truly is the airline that upgrades everyone," Mr van Pelt said. "Apart from our quick check-in - including over the internet - and easy boarding, passengers enjoy space and comfort in our large seats (47cm wide between the armrests), can take three pieces of hand luggage in the cabin, enjoy proper meals on fine china and complementary beverages and service levels not normally associated with domestic air travel.
"It is only once people have flown with us that they fully appreciate what we have brought to the Australian market - a guaranteed upgrade - and the feedback we are getting is enormously positive."
OzJet is stepping up its services on the country's busiest route as Australians return from summer holidays and will operate six flights in each direction on business days this week.
It will return to eight flights in each direction every business day soon after Australia Day.
The arrival soon of a fourth Boeing 737 from chairman Paul Stoddart's European Aviation fleet will allow the airline to add extra services in February to cater for peak-hour demand.
These additional services will be available from February 23 and are being published in all travel agent global distribution systems.
OzJet has been considering the introduction of a frequent flyer program with an announcement imminent of a program that will enable companies and individuals to register as members and enjoy the benefits of the program across their domestic travel requirements.
OzJet's Customer Service Centre in Melbourne, just metres from the Business Carpark at Terminal 3 and almost directly below Gate 12 from which it operates, has been upgraded to become the airline's first lounge.
Named OzLounge, it offers full check-in for passengers and baggage, a large plasma television screen, and complementary hot and cold drinks, snacks and reading material.
OzJet has installed another large plasma TV screen at Gate 12, while eight of its luxurious leather seats are on display in the Terminal 3 concourse - in the 2x2 configuration of the cabin and which can be sampled for size and comfort by everyone passing through the terminal. A similar display will be installed in Terminal 2 at Sydney Airport next week to enable the Sydney market to see and feel the difference OzJet provides for economy travellers between Australia's two largest cities.
All OzJet planes have just 60 seats - all of them of the same large size and with a minimum pitch of 111.5cm, providing significant extra legroom as well as more lateral space.
OzJet travellers can take advantage of fabulous parking options at both airports from which it operates.
"When travelling OzJet from Melbourne you can almost park your car under the nose of your plane," Mr van Pelt said.
"The Business Carpark at Melbourne Airport's Terminal 3 allows you to park within 100 metres of your departure point - Gate 12.
"From the carpark you are just a very short walk to our new OzLounge, where you can check in, take a lift up to the concourse, clear security and you are at the departure gate.
"It may be no more than three minutes from your car!
"At Sydney Airport the most convenient parking for OzJet customers is the Airport Valet facility at Terminal 2 - another fabulous option for easy access to Gate 39, which we use in that terminal."
All OzJet travellers up to and including March 1 have the chance to win rides in Minardi Formula One 2-Seater racing cars owned by Mr Stoddart.
One OzJet passenger a week will win a ride in an F1 2-seater.
To book go to http://www.ozjet.com.au, call 1300 737 000 or contact your Travel Agent.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Setting new industry-leading standards, OzJet said today all its 173 flights on the Sydney-Melbourne route between December 16 and January 15 had departed on time.

Well how is easy is that?.....

"Paul, this ones broken again and it looks like its going to delay us"
"No probs, just can the flight and swing those 4 punters onto the 4:15"

"Paul this ones only got 4 bookings"
"No probs, just can the flight and swing those 4 punters onto the 4:15"

Tah.daah.... all remaining flights leave on time.

Perhaps someone would like to reveal how many flights were canned over that period.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[VH-Cheer Up]

just my two cents on O7. three blokes of last weekends barbie gave 07 a try and here is their feedback. they are all qf pl ff.
no valet parking
no club lounge
not enough flights
no ff points system.

Looks like they're trying to address the parking issue, and have rectified the obvious faux-pas of having no lounge, at least in Melbourne. The FF points system objection might be a furphy. At OzJet's prices, most small business owners are going to see the value, provided the delivery is reliable and on time. And OzJet seem to be addressing that too...
OK, I was a sceptic, but it looks from this PR blurb like they're giving it a red-hot go, doesn't it?
Any recent OzJet travellers care to share their experiences?
VHCU

[404 Titan]

VH-Cheer Up

The FF points system objection might be a furphy.
And if Ozjet believes this then they are definitely in or going to be in trouble.At OzJet's prices, most small business owners are going to see the value, provided the delivery is reliable and on time. And OzJet seem to be addressing that too...
Wrong. A business executive’s time is money. It is only value for money if they have a frequent and reliable service, both of which they don't. I would suggest that a large proportion of the pax that are flying on Ozjet at present are traditional economy class pax wanting to see how the other half live.

[VH-Cheer Up]

VH-Cheer Up
And if Ozjet believes this then they are definitely in or going to be in trouble.
Wrong. A business executive’s time is money. It is only value for money if they have a frequent and reliable service, both of which they don't. I would suggest that a large proportion of the pax that are flying on Ozjet at present are traditional economy class pax wanting to see how the other half live.
Who do you think OzJet would have targeting in the first place? Committed QF J class pax? QF Club Members? Doubt it... More likely they are targeting DJ and QF Y-class business passengers fed up with lack of space and looking for a service that strokes their egos without costing $1100 round trip MEL-SYD.

The frequency is not the issue. Peak-time seats is an issue. Price IS an issue. Remember OzJet probably doesn't have to please all the people, all the time, just enough to them to keep those big seats warm when they fly them. You are talking about people who WILL adjust their schedule around when it's convenient (and nice and comfy at the right price) for them to travel.

And in the absence of any kind of competitive offering from DJ, good luck to them.

VHCU

[019360]

Well I haven't had a chance to try them yet but will. And offering business class travel at way less than full fare QF Economy is the whole point isn't it.I still wish them well.Compass Mk.2 did very well at that model until fraud beat them.
I am in Dallas nowand just jogging before was under the flight path of the endless stream of Southwest 737s going into Love Field. They were a pesky nuisance over 20 years ago when they started here, mocked, scorned and disbelieved. Yet....now the biggest (enplanements and market capitalization) airline in the US and employing thousands of pilots.
We should all,at the start of each day....whoever our current employer is....give thanks that our industry has innovators and entepreneurs in it with more faith and hope than common sense. It'd be blo0dy dull otherwise.

[Buster Hyman]

Albeit in a market 10 times the size of this one 019360.

[wrxsubby]

Some of you guys on this site, really are :mad: :zzz:

doing nothing but going on how Ozjet will fail etc, "GET OVER IT"

for god sake it gets old, they are a new start up offering a great service, just leave them to it.

This forum has gone from discussing the engine types, to Stoddards involvement with F1 to how much a 717 CAN LIFT OUT OF Alice, its really sad to see people trying to put there 2 cents in about Ozjet. Im sure if you went into a new venture you would want support not all this nit picking!:O

To those supporting Ozjet its great to see, Its always good to see a New Airline makes things more intresting, the Red tail gets boring and to see new colours - its goodas.

I know this post will ruffle a few feathers - specially those who insist Ozjet is doomed, like i said "Get Over it" :}

[Mr.Buzzy]

Almost as sad as naming yourself as a car!!!!!!

Fully sick mate!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Trevor the lover]

I actually think everyone except VH-Cheerup has missed the point with Ozjet. Just because it is a business class style operation in no way at all means it is aimed at the business traveller. It is aimed at anyone - but in particular economy class pax who would like a better service at a great price. It has NOTHING to do with being an airline aimed at businesses and business executives. If they start using it - great. But I am sure this is not their main intention.

[tinpis]

*tin settles in comfy chair , gets out pop-corn*

[Woomera]

tinpis Bwahahaha. :ok:

Eeerm chaps notwithstanding we may curtail our friend tinnys enjoyment shall we get back on thread? NOW.:mad:

Should I delete the irrelevant posts. eeeeerm yes.

But note: wrxsubby and Trevor lover without taking sides, you may note Mr Buzzy has a certain style as have many denizens, it is a mistake to make assumptions on it about anything . :cool:

Woomera

[amos2]

So, our mate Trev, "the lover" thinks Mr Buzzy is a bit of a turkey?
Strewth!... and with a name like that?
Go Trev!...you devil, you! :p :p

[Mr.Buzzy]

Anyways. Some of my bees tell me that things arent so bad at Ozjet. Things are actually looking better. My bees also confirm that Easter time is still set to be a bit of a milestone and a point where some decisions are to be made.

Good luck :ok:

bbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zz

Play nice now please W

[Woomera]

Gentlemen and children, last warning, stay on thread or you and it's outa here and you can go play in the sandpit :mad: :mad: :mad: W

Mr Buzzy you should know better.

Woomera

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Woomera,

It's an interesting thread that, although sailing close to the wind, will provide an interesting history of the airline if its successful.

How 'bout deleting the slanging matches and leaving the informative posts?

UTR

[wrxsubby]

i agree,:ok:

yeah has turned into slanging match, but is a very good thread, please don't delete it.:(

Car boy :cool:

[Pinky the pilot]

I can't remember if anyone has mentioned this in previous posts (and I could'nt be bothered to go back and read from the start) but can anyone comment on what the seats/in-flight service (if any) etc are like on Ozjet?
Just somewhat curious.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[apacau]

I flew ozjet on a MEL-SYD breakfast flight.

Seats were very comfortable, crew (half poms, from European Aviation I presume?) friendly and thoughtful (one pax near me was coughing and F/A brought glass of water without even being asked) and catering better than anything else you will get domestically.

No complaints from me. Pity I almost never fly MEL-SYD

[wrxsubby]

there ya go, OZjet can match if not beat the others I have flown QF domestic and i cant say its that flash.

The flight attendants don't really care

[Metro Boy]

What's there staff travel like?

[Guppy Driver]

Still somewhat limited choice of destinations (soon to be rectified;)), but normal industry benefits a'la IATA (ID 90 etc.)

[Pass-A-Frozo]

How's the bookings going? Pax numbers coming up?

[amos2]

So, whats happened to Mr Buzzys mate, Trev "the lover boy"...

picked up his bat and ball and gone home?...

after one post?...surely not!

We luv ya Trev, come back mate!! :ok:

[Guppy Driver]

Very VERY encouraging signs over the last couple of weeks. Some flights are actually FULL - that's right, 60 business seats occupied with people appreciating the OzJet way. Looking good!!

[Uncle Festa]

Guppy

I don't mean too sound negative and I wish the Ozjet boys luck however it's not difficult to fill an aircraft by cutting the guts out of your airfares. Making a profit in that situation can be an altogether different thing

[Al E. Vator]

I hope they do very well.

With Qantas/JS and Virgin it may as well be the TAA and Ansett duopoly. Boring Boring Boring.

Yes 2for1's aren't great but they do increase brand awareness and are probably more beneficial than say TV adverts that cost a fortune.

Good luck OzJet.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Yes 2for1's aren't great but they do increase brand awareness and are probably more beneficial than say TV adverts that cost a fortune. Probably are - got us talking here didn't it? And better than a TV ad that shows two irrelevant, unconvincing old farts and hardly conveys the "business class at sub-economy prices" message they've been trying to get across.

Mind you, I think OzJet has completely missed the point on explaining the real value proposition to the punters, but that's another story. Perhaps the twofers will help some of the relevant SLF work it out and just maybe they'll tell their mates.

Not my idea of how to gamble the company's money on communicating the marketing message, but then I thought Minardi looked like a bad investment too.

VHCU

[TIMMEEEE]

From todays press:

Ozjet upbeat about airline's future
7:23 AM January 24

The nation's newest domestic airline, Ozjet, is planning to announce its next capital city destination in the next few weeks.

Ozjet had to cut flights soon after its first trip between Melbourne and Sydney in late November and was forced to offer two-for-one tickets to put more passengers on its seats.

Ozjet chairman and founder Paul Stoddart says the business service airline has overcome its teething problems and flights between Sydney and Melbourne are running at around 50 per cent capacity, thanks partly to the two-for-one marketing ploy.

"We're seeing passenger loads really improve, to the point where we've had several full flights over the last week," he said.

Mr Stoddart says the next destination will be announced soon.

"It's a really close race between two capitals as to whether we launch a Brisbane or a Perth service next," he said.

Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation spokesman Peter Harbison says longer haul flights may be more effective.

"There's probably a threshold of about two- to two-and-a-half-hours where people do actually start to feel that it's worth paying a bit more to get a comfortable seat," he said.

Mr Stoddart says the airline plans to have 24 flights a day between the nation's two major cities by late February.

Mr Harbison says late February will be crunch time.

"If the market then is going to come towards Ozjet, it may well be that it's got a future," he said.

Mr Stoddard says the business class service will be running 24 flights a day between Melbourne and Sydney by the third week in February.

Source: ABC

I have to agree with Uncle Festa when he said its easy to slash fares and fill seats....but to make a profit is another!

[Over and gout]

Guppy
I don't mean too sound negative and I wish the Ozjet boys luck however it's not difficult to fill an aircraft by cutting the guts out of your airfares. Making a profit in that situation can be an altogether different thing


I agree. But didn't Virgin Blue practically give away a huge amount of flights when they started as well. They appear to be doing ok....

[Uncle Festa]

Gout

You are correct - Virgin is doing ok, however their success in no small way can be attributed to the demise of AN. :sad: :sad:

Today we have two very strong incumbents with deep pockets . . . . :eek: :eek:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Well you must remember people with as much money as Paul didn't get their money by not understanding business.

Actually the wisdom in launching when not much business travel would be occuring is that the "teething" problems would be sorted for the big rush.

An astitute observation about the 2 to 2 1/2 hour threshold. People put up with the airborne version of a greyhound bus on an hour long trip.

I hope he goes the Perth option, I'm flying in March and would give it a go if the price is right!

[Over and gout]

I sincerely hope it works out for them & they don't become another Compass etc

[Al E. Vator]

Why is Peter Harbison (the dag on the bum of the aviation sheep) being quoted as knowledgeable about aviation?:mad:

To now start sprouting-off about the viability or otherwise of OzJet has too many shades of 13 years ago and the termination of Compass, an event with which he is intimately and shamefully familiar.

People's wellbeings and livelihoods are at stake here and should not be influenced by some Loser with no real aviation credibility except to destroy the lives of innocent people.

[Barbossa]

...does anyone know whether in fact the 737-200 with hush-kits can actually fly SYD-PER. I realise with only 60 seats the aircraft is lighter but does the aircraft actually have the endurance to do the run?

I agree with Pass-o-Frozo - many corporations have a travel policy that changes based on the duration of the flight. Anything over around 3 hours allows them to fly business class, whereas on anything less the policy is economy class.

Of course, the other dynamic that works against him is that "long-haul" PER flights give him less cycle utilisation (frequency). Less cycle utilisation + low seating capacity are the antithesis of profitability. He will be forced to raise his fares quite considerably. He may be cheaper than QF business class, but with so much more attributes to the QF service (freindliness aside) it will be a hard win.

I make no secret that I don't think the airline will work and have said so from day one. I agree that that is my opinion only. However, shooting yourself in the foot by constantly giving the airline a "drop dead by date" if loads don't pick up will seriously be working aganist him. He needs the regularity of corporate contracts, not the odd traveller here or there. As most contracts are with QF or VB at the moment, and are given discounts for their volume of travel, I doubt whether any would risk transferring to OZJet with the risk of the airline ceasing ops and they having to grovel back to QF to pick up their contracts.

[BankAngle50]

SYD-PER in a -200. haha. yeah good one. NO

[DutchRoll]

Perth would be interesting PAF. I'm not fully conversant with their equipment list, but the fact that they're pretty ancient -200s together with some unsubstantiated scuttlebutt I've heard suggests that they might not be all that suited for syd-per. It's a fair hike - ETOPs requirements & all that stuff. Someone even said to me they're not RVSM approved, though I take that with a grain of salt for the time being.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

G'day DutchRoll,

I don't think RVSM approval would be a show stopper. Never seems to be a problem until you start getting within a few hundred miles of Sydney, then get pushed down by ATC.
Barbossa:
with so much more attributes to the QF service

You evidently haven't flown A330 business class. I changed my flight to take a 737-800 because the A330 Business Class is so crap.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Barbossa
the other dynamic that works against him is that "long-haul" PER flights give him less cycle utilisation The only economic dynamics worth worrying about are RPK, ASK and yield per ASK. Cycle and frequency are a furphy.

Perhaps the comments about corporate restrictions on J class for a one-hour trip are correct. But - does OzJet even call it J class?

VHCU

[DutchRoll]

Maybe not in a herc PAF (why LMAS didn't include it in the J still puzzles me - ah that's right - we're cheap!), but it can make life very difficult in a passenger jet. The difference, for example, between doing per-syd at >FL300 and being stuck down <FL300 can be very substantial in fuel, time, etc. Multiply that by hundreds of sectors per year, and all of a sudden your business acumen isn't looking so good after all.

...and the frequency with which the most fuel efficient planned levels happen to be non-rvsm? Well, so far in my experience, zero!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

The RVSM certification is "apparently" on the way as part of GATM compliance. Bloody lockheed! Been finding some interesting information out from someone at my new workplace (in CBR) about that whole project. For example Lockheed crashing one of the prototype J's - whilst playing with a "fly by wire" herc. You heard anything about that?? I haven't before.
Actually, I found it [edit] 1993 L-100-20 Crash (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930203-1) They were developing Fly by Wire for the J on this aircraft.


If you were stuck below 300 you weren't trying hard enough [when we had HSC :{ ].
Anyway, regardless I hope OzJet pick up more destinations. Although I guess I couldn't use my Qantas Club or soon to be gold FF membership with them :)

[wrxsubby]

Heard on the news in NZ today that OZjet were going to start flying to Perth in April, is this right? must be doing well to start expanding, and they must need new planes as this discussion has concluded that 737-200 arnt able to do perth runs.

Anymore info any1?

[wanderinglife]

See media release:

http://www.ozjet.com.au/media/release21.htm

[Non Normal]

A bit off topic, but their website looks rather untidy. They could have done a much better job with it. Surely that doesn't inspire passenger confidence?

[Danny Crane]

Non Normal,

I hbave to agree with you about their web site - it's pretty crap. I don't however think that a crap web site is any indication of what an airline is like - just more an indication of how damn hard it is to find a good web designer !!!

As far as flying OZJET I wll be there as soon as they fly somewhere worth flying to :)

[VH-Cheer Up]

Anecdotal report: A colleague did the SYD-MEL-SYD day trip with OzJet last week and lambasted me for telling him they use old aircraft. Looked totally brand-new to him, he said, and the service was way better than his expectation and beat all his QF J-class experiences into the proverbial cocked hat.

So if the non-LAME, non-pilot segment of the flying public can't even tell the difference between an old but refurbished, non-NG 737 and a brand-spanking new 737-800, whom are we kidding?

What they CAN tell the difference about is the service, and it's ahead by miles, apparently, according to him. And he's a senior manager in the customer service game, so his judgement ought to be good.

Might give them a try next time I have to travel to Australia's second-best city. Bugger the points, a few extra centimetres elbow and hip room would beat that.

VHCU

[markben]

The 737 may struggle between MEL-PER but what about the MD-82.......or 15 of them!!!!!

Marker Beacon

[maxter]

.......So if the non-LAME, non-pilot segment of the flying public can't even tell the difference between an old but refurbished, non-NG 737 and a brand-spanking new 737-800, whom are we kidding?..........VHCU


I would take just about any odds that 75%+ passengers have no idea what they are flying in. My experience with people is that if it carries more than 150 passengers it must be a 'jumbo' less than 100 'just dangerous' and in between 'I don't know'

Reality is the travelling public has very little idea and doesn't care as long as it is 'perceived' to be safe and that can mean anything.

I have been involved in aviation for nearly 40 years and my family has been around it as well as it is also my 'hobby' and THEY could not areally tell you which a/c is which.

[apacau]

http://businesssunday.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=86279
an interesting interview with Stoddard and crew on how ozjet is doing.

[TIMMEEEE]

As Scott Rochford correctly mentioned the Ozjet management team were adamant before launch that they would not lower fares below $325 and would not offer discount tickets.

The fact that they have lowered the fares to $249 and offered a 2 for 1 offer (extended now into Feb) is indicative of their business plan having flaws.

I wish them luck and hope to see them flying around long term, but if Stoddart made a handsome profit selling the Minardi Team in Europe, why doesnt he pay his former airline staff what is owed?
Many complaints abound about him in the Euro pages.

[Escape_Slide]

Date: 14/02/2006 (Tuesday)
Flights from Sydney
Flt # O7041 17:25
21 Passengers
Load Factor 35%
Flt # O7 049 19:25
19 Passengers
Load Factor 32%
Flight to Sydney
Flt # O7050 18:00
9 Passengers
Load Factor 15%
Draw your own conclusions.

[gaunty]

Interesting language in the recent interview, leaving the door open for an exit strategy if necessary.

Doesn't mean it is or was a failure just that the market they thought exists may not.

A smart businessman will read the winds and shut it down when it goes to a a point which should be calculated in the business plan.

Flogging a dead horse, if it becomes so, is just dumb, a philanthropist he is not.

Not every product makes it and that is what this is, another product, highly visible and expensive to launch nonetheless.

The big perfume, cosmetic, electronic and suchlike companies will spend more on a new product launch and sometimes they have to let it die.

This is a lifestyle product, therefore discretionary.

The market will decide.

[Escape_Slide]

I have to agree with you Gaunty. There is no doubt the airline is attracting white collar workers as far as I can make out but the loads are not sustainable it seems. When I went for my interview, I was looking at the long run but with a mortgage I am not prepared to run the risk with them. I think Scott R. correctly identifies that Ozjet has not thought this through very well and will pay dearly for it. P.S. should quit while he is ahead. There is not real compelling market for the Ozjet product and what we have seen is largely opportunistic. Even from what I can make out, that other lot (not yet flying) seems to be more level headed in coming into the market with a fresh and exciting product. If the runours are true that they are being funded from the middle-east, I am sure their launch will be nothing short of spectacular.