Wasting time with Durban ATC

[fluffyfan]

Just a quick question to anyone who knows.

Why did the SIDS/STARS have to change in Durban, they used to be quite good. Now they are a :mad: up.

An extra 15 min on every inbound flight, on that pathetic VAVAN arrival, come out near Richards bay and fly down the coast????
I guess whoever designs these things does not factor inconveniance to there clients, or extra fuel burn, plus I dont see the advantage of this arrival, if runway 06 is in use inbound and outbound flights are crossing eachother..........what is the sense in this, we have some of the most modern technology available and we still have strange new STARS/SIDS popping up, I am sure someone has a reason for this arrival would be nice to know what it is and if its so wonderful why do Approach cancel the arrival half the time and shorten the route.

[MysticFlyer]

I know, I know,

Could it be that the previous designer/s left for the greener pastures?

M.mm...mmethinks so! But come on, there should be very suitable airspace designers left in SA, Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, Swaziland or in Africa?:ugh:

Guys like King Arthur, Lord Charles or Hoorakke nou verkeerd!? Wrenelle help, you must know some out there!

Send in the Piranha's, the ship's sinking!

MF:ooh:

[V1 Rotate]

I could never understand why Durbs had to vector you way out to sea to clear the way for SAA every time. Once SAA was 40 miles behind me and I still got vectored so far out that I landed 5 minutes after the said fluffy!

V1:sad: :sad:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Company traffic, boet...:E :ok:

[fluffyfan]

Company traffic........good one, I wish.

I dont think its like that, as far as I can see everyone gets there fair share of 03L in JHB, I dont see ATNS giving preference to SAA or anyone else. Unless you happen to be a GA aircraft, then I suppose it does happen occasionaly, but most places like Cape Town and Port Elizabeth, even JHB seem to cope with the heavies and the GA aircraft, maybe its just Durban :E

[tyrant]

Coz you were flying the slowest of slotations :E :ok:

[SIC]

Love it when they vector you for the "shortened ILS" and then turn you away from the airport!! Once asked the guy if the shortened ILS wasn't in the other direction...needless to say he didn't see the humour and I turned finals somewhere near Margate.

[Speed Managed]

Fluffyfan

It's time for u to go international! I see you getting as frustrated as I was about the inefficiency of local ATC.
Now its only a problem 4 times a month, not 4 times a day!

[makeapullup]

Speed managed - make sure you make the distinction between ATC and ATC procedure! Same as we make the distinction between Pilot ability and Aircraft/Airline restrictions! (eg A319 slow approach speed!) PS. With that attitude you should apply to only fly overseas.:(

[V1 Rotate]

Lovely attitude from ATC!!
V1:sad: :sad: :sad:

[highline]

Cannot understand what the guys are getting at with the new routings. very frustrating for GA and as an airline passenger.

GA always seems to come off second best. ATC seem not to understand that the King Air will do better than the fluffy to the outer marker and still land off the approach, so dont understand the reason for sending the GA traffic out of the way to accomodate the airlines. :uhoh: :uhoh:

[Speed Managed]

makeapullup

Your comment just confirms how badly some of you guys take criticism! I appreciate the trying conditions and procedures that you guys operate under. (A friend of mine is an ATC and he constantly reminds me!)

Now, just like we VERY often get hammered on this forum and in the press about our sometimes below acceptable service, you must sometimes be prepared to take criticism!
Unfortunately it is often very difficult for us to "make a distinction between ATC and ATC procedure." But irrespective, YOU are ATNS who are offering us a service which we and ultimately our passengers are paying alot for!!! Unlike our clients who have a choice of airline, we unfortunately have no choice of ATC. However, when you get an opportunity to fly in and out of other overseas destinations you soon notice the difference in the efficiency of the service with ALOT more traffic, be it "ATC or ATC procedure."

Now as far as attitude! I think maybe you should relax that ego just a fraction and be able to accept criticism where it is due. After all why can't ATC in SA be just as efficient as it is at LHR, FRA, JFK or HKG for that matter! I'd like to see that!

[bloodisgreen]

speed managed,

why not get your facts straight before moaning about the short commings on the ATC's in SA.Why dont you ask your mate thats an ATC just how trying the conditions are! especially the fajs atc's work under due too low staffing and high training workload trying too get the numbers back up again so that a decent level of service can be provided.I am presumming you fly for SAA because generally that is the standard attitude of the pilots that fly for them(there are alot of really helpful and undestanding pilots that fly for SAA,but few and far between).WHY do u people keep comparing us too blah blah blah blah.heard it so many time's i just switch off. why not Look at ways of improving the conditions here in SA than just shooting it down the whole time.Yes i agree the Durban procedures suck,why u need too route to a 50nm final approach point,just doesnt make sense.You should ask the airspace planners at Head office not the ATC'S.The durban atc's well maybe u should ask them why they do what they do.FAJS ATC'S maybe u can tell us excatly where the problems ARE??

Tell me when u fly overseas how often do u hold,get your requested FL etc etc? I dont think overall that there is much too moan about at FAJS,but if u give specifics we can have something too work with.

[MysticFlyer]

Now will all the parties concerned get back to following the procedures.

A-ha, the system is lacking some good design criteria? Some pilots expect a bit of efficiency, difficult to provide in all aspects, due to staffing. ATNS has clear mandate regarding AA (and/or whatever you may want to call it.)

Pipe down and read the second posting on this thread by myself. Throwing rocks at each other will not solve this one either.

In the meantime stay positive. The oxen is patient and the road is long?:yuk:

I remember meeting Gen. Jerry Coetzee (first MD ATNS - ex nav in the SAAF) once. In his office he had a historic piece of navigational equipment in a glass dome mounted on a piece of wood. This little altar of masonry is a clear indication of the path they have laid out for, ("plotted") for aviation in Africa or for the world for that matter.

Fits in when Harry opposed Verwoerd and more about that in the campfire, but to give you an indication how all of this affects and has relevance to aviation.

Have a great day!

Mystic

In the meantime, where's the other Coetzee these days?

[makeapullup]

Hey MF - wasn't Jerry a pilot - Captain Caprivi?

Speed mismanaged -
CRITICISM
1. The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
2. A critical comment or judgment.
3.
1. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
2. A critical article or essay; a critique.
3. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism.

SLANDER
1. Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Quoted from Dictionary.com

Highline - When you start your schedule from Brakpan to FAJS in your BE20 you'll always be first. Poor argument about your speed at the outermarket, what do you suggest we do with you when you're at 70nm FL240 with all the jets doing 300kts and descending?

[Speed Managed]

Bloodisgreen,

"why not get your facts straight before moaning about the short 'commings' on the ATC's in SA."
Please explain from my previous posting what facts are not straight?

"Why dont you ask your mate thats an ATC just how trying the conditions are! especially the fajs atc's work under due too low staffing and high training workload trying too get the numbers back up again so that a decent level of service can be provided."
Once again, as I said before, I really apreciate the work you guys are doing under these conditions! And once again this is not directed at you ATC's personally. However, how long have these conditions being going on for??!!!! MANY, MANY years! And why must we the clients of ATNS who are paying for the service, be subjected to extra fuel burns, delays, etc in this very expensive and competitive market because of the short comings of ATNS??

"I am 'presumming' you fly for SAA because generally that is the standard attitude of the pilots that fly for them(there are alot of really helpful and undestanding pilots that fly for SAA,but few and far between)."
Now we getting personal. The same holds true about some of the controllers. There are many times where I've heard ATC make sarcastic and rude comments on the air at various aircrew and on this forum towards SAA and SAA pilots. So sometimes some of you guys are not exactly the flavour of the month either.

"WHY do u people keep comparing us too blah blah blah blah.heard it so many time's i just switch off. why not Look at ways of improving the conditions here in SA than just shooting it down the whole time."
The only reason we, and maybe SAA in particular, compare you to X,Y & Z, is because we operate to X, Y & Z weekly. And we expect our ATC to be up to par, and I suppose thats why our passengers expect SAA to jack up their service, and rightly so!

"Tell me when u fly overseas how often do u hold,get your requested FL etc etc?
In 2 years on the overseas I have honestly had to hold 3 times, ATL, ZUR and LHR. Very rarely have an ATC delay on start. And get our requested FL 90% of the time, except when hitting Africa, then the the jugle for levels start.

"I dont think overall that there is much too moan about at FAJS,but if u give specifics we can have something too work with."
Granted, most problems are not at JHB, FAJS is way ahead in SA and I presume most of the those problems are procedural. As I said I haven't flown domestic for 2 years but examples at FAJS ; Holding (probably improved), delays on start, delays at hold (slow release of traffic / slow traffic, same departure), landing 03R when no traffic using 03L; told to keep high speed by Area then told to slow right down on first contact by Radar (Speedbrake, etc out for the rest of the approach).

Do you guys ever get to visit other overseas ATC centres to see how they move traffic? It would also be great if you guys could spend a day, on the jumpseat, with a domestic crew doing 4 sectors, to see some of the frustrations from the other point of view. (unfortunately probably not possible now since 9/11!)


Makemethrowup,

You definately in need of some leave! What ARE you on about?

[makeapullup]

hey speedy, didn't think it was that cryptic. i feel you are attacking ATC's, you think its criticism and therefore constructive!
About the jumpseat. We do fly jumpseat. Spent a fantastic trip to PE on a -800 with a great crew. Also been to the Sim twice. -800 and 319. Very educational. Great people those that take the time to show us around. Have you sat in for a full shift at Area or Approach. Not just the normal walk around when its not busy? See the frustrations from the other side.

easy to arrange

cheers

[captain cumulonimbus]

Guys,guys,guys...

With the exception of certain INDIVIDUALS who i shall not go any further in naming,ATC in this country is top,top notch,and i must say i'm glad and relieved every time i cross over TAVLA,RUDAS or NESEK inbound! it is NOT the ATCOs who design the STARS/SIDS,even though it IS their definite job to see that we all stick to them or to the instructions they issue.With the exception of a few nasty exchanges (always with the same persons),i've not heard any 'attitude' from ATC,just efficiency under pressure,especially in highveld summer,when,as you all know,FAJS app is like the mental ward at falkenberg on open day.

[bloodisgreen]

speed managed,

My point with getting the facts straight before criticising atc at FAJS or in genral atc in SA,

you try compare us too LHR,FRA,JFK etc etc.How many sectors do they have per number of A/C worked,how many ATC do they have on shift,what are there breaks,hours worked before getting a break.I can bet you that those centers have more sectors just for app control than we have in the whole center at FAJS app and area together.They probably have more controllers on a shift than we have ATC'S at JHB.

Now u wonder why i get p:mad: when i hear people trying too compare us with the rest of the busy centers in the world.

It is a never ending circle with training and losing ATC'S too the rest of the world,especially that big sandpit too the north.I'm sure if we also had 10 app sectors u wouldnt have too hold and there would not be delaysbut unfortunatly the reality is that there are not.

You have atc's at fajs working hours that are just as busy as some of those airports with very few delays,throw in abit of weather and it just adds too the fun.The average delay for A/C out of fajs is 7seconds per A/C.yes you might have a bad day where u get delayed on all 4 flights u flew that day but for the next 6 month's nothing.But u will always remeber that bad day you had.

Now you make a general statement:

It's time for u to go international! I see you getting as frustrated as I was about the inefficiency of local ATC.
Now its only a problem 4 times a month, not 4 times a day.

Dont bite the hand that feeds the mouth!!!

[fluffyfan]

Hey listen, nothing against ATC's although I can see my original topic could be misleading......I drink with you guys all the time at high flyers, we are all mates here.... my intent was to get the guys talking about some of these new Stars, in particular the VAVAN arrival in Durban, what Moron designed that arrival???? please let us know who designed that classic piece of efficiency.

Most Airlines around the world on some sort of cost cutting, I see Air Canada is taking the paint off there aircraft to save fuel, At SAA lots of pressure to carry less (extra) fuel, and I am sure all the others as well........why to cut cost. But some bright spark at ATNS designs a route that involves an extra 15min on a JHB DUR leg...........thats thinking of your clients isnt it.

I know you guys at ATC hate the new arrivals as much as we do, I apologise that you are getting flak on this thread, not my intention...........you do a great job.

[Maurice Chavez]

ATC in this country is for sure top notch. Flown most of my time in and out of Europe and ATC there is a joke. If they can't handle the situation, they just stack you up in holds. Was even told to hold into Munich on a 001 callsign. Our boys here don't design them dumb*ss SID's and STAR's, it's them bureaucrats.

ATC is dong a damn good job here! By the way Ernie, again thanks for my DSTV, enjoying every minute of it!

[Shrike200]

I sentence anyone who has a problem with SA ATC's to two months continuous flying in the Roberts airspace in West Africa......frankly, I think our local ATC's are great, and I continually sense the competence and willingness to help when able. Thanks.

And hey, I like longer sectors, 15 mins extra on the DBN leg to eat my meal! I know its not the greatest idea though...

[beechbum]

bloodisgreen......do you actually control aircraft in our skies? With the way you have crucified the English language, I sure hope not.
Learn to spell and use the correct grammar and then we may take you seriously.
Anyway getting back to the topic at hand as Fluffyfan so rightly said........guys in Durbs......we know it's not your fault that we have to endure these horrendous arrivals but if you plan to take us off them and give us a shorter routing then tell us in advance!!! You have to realise that these chunks of metal are not easy to get out of the sky when there is no room to do it in. Maybe you guys sit there and have a good chuckle wondering whether or not we're going to get this beast down or not. "Ummm lets see if he can get out of this one?" as you guys throw the R20 on the counter!!!!!
Just remember prior planning gives a great performance......

[reptile]

Quick question bloodisgreen......

what exactly do you mean with "don't bite the hand that feeds the mouth"?

I've always been under the impression that the atc is there for the pilots' convenience.....or do you believe it is the other way around?

[4HolerPoler]

Puleeaze do not rise to the bait ATCO's - this guy is just trying to wind you up - the great majority of us drivers appreciate your presence and realize that some times we will not be Number One; we also see bureaucracy & realize that most of it comes from above.

This thread has the potential to widen or narrow the divide between our two professions; please avoid creating a conflict.

4HP

[IShotTheSherif]

Maybe you guys sit there and have a good chuckle wondering whether or not we're going to get this beast down or not. "Ummm lets see if he can get out of this one?" as you guys throw the R20 on the counter!!!!!

Hi Beechbum,

I assure you (and I sincerely hope I speak for my colleagues), not once in my entire ATC career, have I deliberately (or not) held up an aircraft and then wondered if he can get down in time. It's ultimately a matter of safety putting a pilot and aircraft/pax into a pressure situation for no reason.

If an aircraft has it's flight path shortened (or lengthened), then it is good (read essential) practice to give the revised track miles to touchdown, and any ATCO should know it takes +/-3 track miles to get 1000' off, and at that rate, don't also ask the pilot to slow either. Sadly, I have seen some less than ideal situations develop due to lack of aircraft performance knowledge.

Guys & Gals - all you Pilots and ATC's - we are in this game for a common goal: Get everybody safely from A to B as fast as possible. We don't delay for kicks, but more due to the beaurocracy pushed into our system by His Highness (where ever you work in the world, he/she is present). We have to comply or we run into trouble.

Safe controlling, and safe flying :ok: :ok:

[makeapullup]

beechbum beechbum beechbum, last time i remember spelling and grammar counting was in standard 5, are you still in standard 5 or was that the best comeback you could come up with? 4holer, would we ever take the bait for that rhetorical question?

ps quote from friday \"... how many trackmiles do you require? ... about 30.\"
all in all after 40nm ... asks for an orbit as he\'s too high. question - beechbum do you even know how many nm you need to land, how about trust us that we\'ll (most of us) will give you enough nm!

[bloodisgreen]

MoM mom MOM,what u doing posting on these forums as beechbum, enough about my spelling!!

Reptile,

What i mean is that we should be working together, its supposed too be a team effort!! Even though it looks like some of the pilots on this post seem to think there life would be alot easier without ATC'S :hmm:

[reptile]

great! that's what i hoped you meant:ok:

[beechbum]

Hey boys.....a bit of tongue in cheek here. I know you all do a great job. And yes I do know how many miles I need to get the beast out of the sky!!!
Ummm standard five....I wish! Still trying to pass standard four. I'm sure I'll get there!!!!Just got to pass my maths test because I can't count!!! Damn but at least I can spell!
As for bloodisgreen....spelling lesson number one:
u = you
i = I
too = to

Here endeth the lesson!!!!!!!

Oh by the way heard an aircraft being asked to contact Jo'burg radar on the phone after it landed yesterday.What sort of error do you have to make? Just curious here, no digs or anything like that, just find it interesting!!!!:ok: :ok:
Anyway gents and ladies carry on the good work that you do and don't let a little bit of tongue in cheek get in the way!!!I was only trying to reiterate what fluffyfan was trying to put forward!!!
Speak to you on the airwaves.:ok:

[126,7]

Oh by the way heard an aircraft being asked to contact Jo'burg radar on the phone after it landed yesterday.

I have also used that phrase in the past. This way you can chat to the PIC and explain what he or his co-jo did wrong (would have to be serious stuff) and maybe have a possitive influence on what happens on the next flight. Or a controller could just fill out a safety report and then the crew can have tee and cookies in the fleet captain's office.

Its all about safety!

PS. Hope my spelling is ok :E

[EltorroLoco]

Interesting thread...

I'm an approach/radar controller at FAJS, and believe me, we get just as peeved with some of the procedures as well as some of our colleagues (including pilots) at FAJS.

There are a couple of factors which tend to cloud some of the issues:

- After some bad experiences, I try not to negatively criticise sectors I've never worked at, so I'm afraid Durban stuff is for Durban users. It's much more productive to write the people who can change things a letter asking for the explanation.

- With a lot of our local procedures being a bit odd, it then depends on the experience/balls/ignorance of the controller as to what service you get. This is probably the most important factor contributing to the lack of consistency in SA ATC. The tube drivers are generally better at this than we are since we are not really interested in the PIC, only the aircraft type, to predict performance. Not so with ATC I'm afraid, there is a big difference between the A team and B team when they work. I don't think it's best for the customer, but facts are facts.

Although rumour networks are great for disseminating information quickly, they are not very good for changing procedure. I would encourage every pilot who experiences both good and bad ATC to write to ATNS. Large amounts of official correspondence have been known to topple governments in the past.

I also think that when the procedures are not helping and one must take initiative, some plans are better that others and one can only hope to make more good plans than bad ones.


Lets hope only the A team in the future...

[beechbum]

Eltoroloco,
I appreciate your honest reply and value your honest opinion.
Thanks for posting!!!
Go the A-team....................................:ok:

[reptile]

Love the remark about the A-team and the B-team. Something that becomes painfully obvious on certain days.:ok:

[126,7]

Agree on the A-team
Some guys/girls work there and some just have a natural talent. Its like that all over the world. Unfortunatly, some places have less of the A- and more of the B-team.

[Goldfish Jack]

I often ask pilots to phone me - otherwise it gets bored at work and imagine how upset Moscow aka Head Office would get if I told a dirty joke on the radio.

You dont always think we are going to give the pilot a rocket do you ???????? well sometimes yes but then the phone call also be used to arrange drinks, golf tee off times, dirty jokes, skinner about the other airlines, hosties phone numbers, etc etc etc etc where any garages are that have got diesel and have a good laugh about ACSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[03Rnow30R]

Hello JHB dudes. Must say, I miss working with you guys.

Eish, I see some people were getting rather violent.

Dudes and Mrs Dudes; we need to get into the planes and you driver types need to come and play Nintendo with the ATC's. Unfortunately trying to get jump seat time where I am now is a non event! Nothing wrong with a bit of a brew and a good chin wag, but as the night gets more hazy, the "I can give you 160kts to 4 miles" becomes "I can give you 250kts to the gate inverted!" So much of the information and "ability" is a bit inflated after a few drinky-poo's. Same goes for the ATC's I do admit. Much is learned when we watch it done in the work place.

FAJS APP, you guys rock dudes. It was a pleasure working with you and hope to do it again some day. Just got to get all the sand out me rods first. Been a year already.

Make-a-pullup, you get the lightsabre? Thanks for the trading beans.....:ok: :cool:

[makeapullup]

30R - me thinks the sun,sand and heat gone to your head - what you talking light saber. maybe you got the wrong guy! c ya.

[03Rnow30R]

:O Pullup

My humblest apple-o-gies. Must have the wrong person. Disregard then.

[fluffyfan]

Heard this from an ATC mate.....

Apparently if an aircraft does a go-around the radar/tower (cant remember who) controller gets suspended.

It this true? and if so are they suspended automatically regardless of who's fault it is (ie a SAA crew may have stroked the cat and not be approach stable at 1000 ft agl - which is an immediate go- around).............in this case its may not be the controllers fault ....are they still suspended....

[makeapullup]

fluffuy fan - not true. the "incident" will be reviewed. if atc's were suspended for every go-around you'd be broadcasting on 118.1. only after management have looked at situation will a decision be made. (this is my experience at least).