European flying job market

[B767PL]

Hello thar.

I am a 19 y/o working on my instrument, about 1 more month to go if all goes according to plan. Then I plan on continuing my flying up to CFI and start building time etc.

I currently live in the U.S.A. I was born and lived in Poland for 5 years, then moved here. I still go back almost every summer or whenever I can. I would like to move back to Europe upon finishing school, and my time building period instructing, maybe up to 900 hrs, 250 multi-engine, in that neighborhood, or more if necassary.

How is the airline job market in Europe? How is hiring? I would love to go back and live in Poland and do my flying for a European airline. A Polish airline would be excellent, but from what I hear, its almost impossible to get into LOT without some serious connections. Central wings I would mention but who knows if they will even be around then still (about 4 years from now).

Anybody with any knowledge or info on what its like across the pond (where most of you are) fill me in please. Is the demand for pilots in Europe higher then in USA, or North America?

Thanks for any info.

[Dirty Harry 76]

Hi there

I lived in the USA for quite a few years and now fly commercial in Europe. Unlike the American system were you need 1000hrs plus including a minimum amount of twin time just to get an interview, the airlines in Europe are looking for quality hrs i.e Multi crew time, a type rating with experiance etc. Unfortunately as you can see from all the other threads in this forum most people are being asked to pay in some shape or form for there initial training when they join their first airline. If you have no airline experiance its just as hard in Europe to find a job just as it is in the USA. Also, you will need to convert your FAA Licence to JAR.

My advice, and i presume you have a green card, is now your in the american system stay in it, move to San Diego, live the American Dream. Dont fool yourself, the standard of living sucks here compared with the US.

Enjoy!

[B767PL]

Hey, Thanks for your reply :)

Hmm, didnt know about the "quality hours". That makes things a little more difficult. Hopefully the demand for Pilots will go up enough so the airlines who will be employing you actually pay for your type-rating. Time will tell.

I want to move to Europe simply because the lifestyle there seems to suit me better, I just seem to feel more comfortable there and enjoy being there more then here, maybe I just live in a boring place, after all the name "Middletown" says it all. hehe. I guess its personal preferance, but thats what I would like to do.

Lately ive been noticing that lots of the commuters and regionals here in the U.S are hiring. Maybe picking up a job and flying on a CRJ/ERJ or a Beech1900 for a year or two will give me just the expierience I need to get a better flying job in Europe. Just an idea. Really would like to do this.

With regards to switing the licenses from FAA to JAR, whats involved? Is it simply a matter of learning the JAR regulations and passing a written exam?

Thanks for any replies.:ok:

[Boingboingdriver]

Dear 767,

With all due respect, follow the advice from the other ppruner.
The JAR regulations requires you to sit all 14 exams which take about 8 (England) to 12 months in France.
Be1900 and Crj even with experience on type wont do you any good without the licence.
America is a great place to live where there s still opportunities for whom works hard to succeed rather than who has the most cash in the bank.
It will take you longer to reach the warm seat of a shinny jet but the day you get there,youll smile knowing you deserved it FULLY....and youd be a better pilot overall:D
Good luck and enjoy your future.

Boingboing

[B767PL]

Hey boingboing, Thanks for your reply. Why does it take 8 or 12 months to take the exams? Do they all have to be spaced out over a certain time period from each other? Why not just take all 14 in one week if able, for example? Also, would it be possible to take the exams in the U.S? Or do you have to be in Europe? It does seem to be a lot of work to switch over from one system to another, too bad they just dont have one universal system. This is all good to know, as im not sure myself yet and probably wont be until I finish school of what exactly I plan on doing, but if this is going to be an option, might as well see whats involved. Although the U.S isnt a horrible place to live, it doesnt appeal to me nearly as much as Europe, thats why I would like to try to switch over. It does sound difficult and quite a pain, but hopefully in the long run it would be worth it and I would be happier. Unfortunently, I wouldnt know if it was worth it or not until its a done deal.

Your guys replies are very helpful and I will be considering all this when the time comes to make a decision, big thanks for chimming in. Any other advice or point of views are very welcome also. Thanks again guys :)

[King Da5id]

The exams take about 6 months to complete and that is because they are so damn difficult. Every person on here who has been through that part of the JAA syllabus will testify to that. I worked harder for those exams than I did for my university degree. Every night at least 2 hours work just to keep up!!

The only good thing you have on your side is your age. You are young enough to come to Europe and take the six months or a year to pass your wriitens and convert your licence.

BUt if you can put up with the american culture( if you can call it that) then I would have to agree with my two colleagues here and stay put

Best of luck with whatever you do.

[Boingboingdriver]

767,

You can not write the exams in a week..its a full time class from 8.30am to 5-6 pm every day for 6 months..
At the end of the first 4 months you will sit 8 exams(3 days exam),one month off to avoid students turning completely insane.
Then after you complete the second stage ground school (3 months) you will sit another 6 exams.
If you fail 3 times the same subject you will have to sit all exams again...from the first exam sitting you have one year(if you go long distance course) to finish and pass them all otherwise back to square 0!
You are young..if you really want to try it come over..and im sure youll make it..but its not easy and requires you put 7 months of your life towards this study...its not like most unis where you go out wednesday,thursday friday and saturday to go drinking...
Whatever you decide ..good luck!

[ChocksAwayUK]

If you studied full time (distance learning) you could probably complete the exams in 2 sittings over 4 months or so. That would include 2 fortnight-long "brush-up" sessions which you're required to have.

Personally it took me a year with a full time job.

[B767PL]

Wow. That sounds tough. What ever happened to studying the material at home and then taking a written and passing/failing? Where can you go to take these classes and exams? Are there any places in the U.S where I would be able to do this? 8-6pm Monday thru Friday? for 6 months? :eek: When are you supposed to work? How about fly? Or for that time do you basically just take some time off? From flying at least. The way I have this pictured in my head makes it seem so horribly difficult. What are these classes about? And all this, just to convert FAA to JAA licenses? Im not discouraged by this, just that it makes everything 100 times more difficult, especially since I would probably need a full-time job to support myself. Do all JAA pilots have to go thru such a course? Sounds very demanding.

Thanks again for all your guys input, to me its like a new world. Appreciate the help/guidance. :)

[B767PL]

And just to clarify, these 14 exams have to be taken even to convert my FAA licenses to JAA ones? Meaning I would already have my PPL, IR , Comm. , CFI etc. I would just like to convert them to JAA, I would still have to sit all these exams?
Thanks again
(I got confused reading a thread elsewhere):)

[angelorange]

Yes you will have to convert your FAA to JAR by sitting these exams AND sitting the commercial flight tests including the IR.

If you get Beech 1900 time with a US airline you might get an exemption on the MCC requirement with 500 hours on type and perhaps a JAR type rating - but that aircraft is not classified as Multi Crew in Europe so it won't give you an ATPL over here. Try to get an ATR job instead

[corklad]

get your faa atp with 3000hrs on multi crew ac..crj or erj or higher plus 1500pic with and 500 on that type and you qualify for a uk national license (caa lasors 2005) ....and avoid the exams (u may need uk residense to qualify for it though)
it'll take 2-3 yrs airline time in the states if u can hold out that long

[DeltaT]

are there any avenues to make the break into USA if you do the FAA licence? i.e employers that sponsor the working visa etc?

[B767PL]

angelorange, whats a MCC requirement? Odd that the 1900 doesnt qualify as multi-crew, since well, would be flying in a multi-crew enviroment.

corklad, thanks for that info. With a UK national license would I be able to fly for non-UK airlines with that? What would need to be done to convert the UK national licenses to JAA? Or are they already JAA? Pardon my ignorance but im not too familiar with how this all works.

If anyone knows any other possible ways to by-pass those 14 exams, please post heh.

Thanks guys. Its a big help :)

[corklad]

B1900 doesnt qualify due to MTOW. you need to be in a decent size jet any beoing or airbus will do, maybe a CRj, look up the caa lasors 2005 section G for exact MTOW figure. UK national license if valid for G reg a/c only...however u may...and i stress may, be able to wiggle it around some less stringent jaa complient countries...greece maybe?? if u get a full license from one jaa state u can then swap it for any other. this is not strictly in the spirit of things and probably very hard to do if not impossible...but hey the caa screwed me out of thosands of pounds with out hesitation so i dont mind re-paying the favour :)

[wolferj]

I believe corklad is referring to the third option but I think you need to have 3.000 PIC (P1) over 30.000 Kg.
I hope I am wrong otherwise I will do it myself.

So those 14 writtens are though aha....?

[corklad]

nope! its 3000hrs in said multi crew a/c >30,000lbs with 1500PIC in that a/c.:ok:

[B767PL]

It would make life so much easier if they just had a book of regulations which are different then FAA, made you study it, and pass a test, then BAM, here you go. That, I think would be much more practical, rather then going through so much trouble. I hear its much easier to convert JAA to FAA?

3000 hrs I guess would be bearable to aquire, but im sure for a first job, I wouldnt get hired on anything bigger then a CRJ/ERJ so hopefully those planes would be good for the multi-crew requirment. I thought there was an easier way around this to be honest, heh. Any more loopholes anyone?? :ok:

[Gnirren]

Ah but you forget, this is europe. We're not going to put regs in pocketformat for all aviators to enjoy, that would be way too practical.

We stick it in umpteen binders and charge an arm and a leg for the updates instead!

Think flying should be fun? Flying should be complicated! Make it seem impossible even... then we can all prance around and showboat our divine skills :ok:

Celestial navigation rules... As soon as that FMC goes out, pull up the old sextant and away you go.

[wolferj]

Corklad, thanks. I will look into it then.
Do you have any reference to validate you saying?
Those peckerwoods in the Netherlands are worst than the Mafia. They won' t tell anything SPECIFIC, rather than pointing to their useless website (might as well be written in finnish!).
Again thank you for your input.

Wolferj

[corklad]

yes sure. goto the uk caa web page. then type in LASORS in the search section. download it. then goto section G of document i think? it should have the exact requirements there. these are UK requirments only. you may need british residense or passport holder to qualify?? only the UK caa can tell you that part. hope this helps.

[wheels up]

BE 1900 being considered a single crew aircraft has nothing to do with MTOW since this is above 5700kg. The reason it is not classed as a multi-crew aircraft is because that's the way it was certified - despite the fact that most operators operate the aircraft multi-crew.

Another quirk of aviation that makes no sense in reality.