Willie Walsh's CC plans

[purr777]

Latest inside info:

Mr Walsh is very keen to streamline cabin services at BA and bring cabin crew costs down to industry standards. The current plans start with LGW becoming one fleet 737/777 (including 747 training for operational reasons) and crew working to a more uptodate work scheme. The proposals mean the LGW cabin crew agreement will allow them to fly in and out of LHR. While LHR crews think they may be safe the plan includes LGW crews being able to bid for/operate trips, including 747 ones (SIN/SYD, NRT etc)...all under a new pay structure/conditions.

Other areas being looked closely at are (reduced) days off after longhaul trips (to come in line with other carriers), crew complements (CSD role redundant/expensive?) and a standardised crew allowance system . BA management are also doing research into Qantas style base points, ie SYD based BA crew who do the SYD/MEL-LHR routes etc to reduce accommodation costs etc.

BASSA are now informing its members about the proposals and are obviously not impressed, but they know some form of change is definitely rearing its ugly head!
EG300 caused a few waves, but WAS implemented and now the next round of talks start.

[keeperboy]

PURR you are unbelievable.

Hot on the heels of your New Club World post which had no points of reference at all and was littered with inaccuracies (freedom dining etc etc), here you come out with another one just the same!

You sprout all these facts but where did you read about them? Where are you quoting from?

Yes, i'm sure WW would like ALL the things that you mention, he would also like us to be based in India and Pakistan working for a third party company for £200 per month. But I don't think that will happen either!

Your post totally contradicts itself. You start by talking about the LGW single fleet (which is fact), and then ramble on about LGW crew being able to bid for flights from LHR to Narita etc. LGW single fleet is about closing LGW WW mainline and that is it.

Fact......if as you mention LGW crew will be 737/777 'single fleet' how can they operate to NRT on a 747? Despite your claims, the single fleet LGW crew WILL NOT be trained on the 747.

Fact.....we can't even bid for any long haul flights as we don't have a bidding system on long-haul.

Fact....Discussions are only just beginning today (tues) between the union and BA to discuss single fleet LGW.

You obviously have access to the BASSA website where they are discussing it, but with your total lack of facts and knowledge of BA crew workings you are not BA crew.

For those of you without access to the BASSA website, here are the topics of discussion between BA management and BASSA over the next 3 days, and relating to LGW single fleet:
• Days off after a longhaul trip
• Mix of long & short haul flying in a duty day
• Night duties
• Report & debrief
• Allowances
• Visa a& Documentation arrangements
• Senior Cabin Crew member-role and responsibilities
• Crew Complement
• Crew rest seats-hi comfort

Again, the above only relates to the LGW single fleet operation.

Points of discussion re: LHR long-haul are centred around the removal of a Purser position, and on LHR short-haul the abolition of long crew turnarounds at LHR. Also mixed long/short haul 767 flying for short-haul LHR crew and shorthaul crew assisting with boarding.

Also, the 'hourly pay rate' (which I favour) will be up for discussion again also. All these issues are seperate from those at LGW and are due to be discussed once LGW single fleet is up and running.

[purr777]

Inaccuracies?
1.Single fleet means doing both short and longhaul, not one single aircraft!
2.No, bidding does not exist YET on WW, but it's part of the single fleet plans and LGW crews WILL be able to bid for 747 trips....

I suggest you stick to pressing BREW on the coffee machine!

[sixmilehighclub]

ROSTAR bidding exists for LHR WW.

There will be changes at LHR taking place but only to fall in line with T5 implementation.

Such as long turnarounds, these are likely to be abolished when the crew and aircraft will all be operating from the same building. Time will be allowed for delays but not up to almost 4 hour turnarounds where they are now.

Shorthaul Eurofleet are already operating Longhaul flights, which are being rostered to crew on B767s. No change there.

The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence with currency, is simply not allowed. To select some crew for one aircraft and some for another would simply lead to inadequate crewing and scheduling, overcrewing for standby crews and problems covering sickness and delays, etc. BA have no wish to complicate matters further, or to increase overheads through having to employ additional crew to buffer shortfalls in cover.

Its obvious its going to change, streamlining has to happen to be effective within the business plan, but not in the way Purr suggests. Agreements will be made with the unions as to changes which need to take place and compromised around what BA management want to take place. Its called good business ethics.

I used to work for an airline which had one crew member assisting with boarding. This will only be possible providing CAA regulation are met. Firstly that there is one crew member in the vicinity of each pair of doors whilst the aircraft is on the ground, secondly that one crew member is onboard for each 50 passengers onboard. So if for an example 160 passengers were due to board an aircraft which has 2 sets of doors, you would have to have no less than 4 crew on board as soon as the 151st passenger steps on. From experience, it does help the crew as they are aware of any problems firsthand before they board, and ensures the customer is being advised of any delays and the reasons for which, and answer questions about products onboard, enabling a passenger for example to run to a shopn if they have needs the crew cant meet (if not delaying the aircraft!!).

Don't you think the BA crews have had enough to deal with this year without you scaremongering Purr?? Leave them to concentrate on their work, please.

In the meantime, I'll be asking someone else to BREW the coffee whilst I decide where to hang my picture in my new office.

[keeperboy]

PURRRRRRR.....unless you know something the Manager of Inflight Services doesn't maybe you should check your facts before you post inaccurate things.

I did my "OOF" course two weeks ago.

The Inflight Services Manager (JH) was there to answer questions.

One of the questions: "Will LGW single fleet crew be trained on the jumbo?" A: "No, only the 737 and 777".

Question: "Will LGW single fleet crew be able to operate from LHR?". A: "No, as all LHR mainline operations are covered under the NSP, which LGW will not form part of".

Have you done your OOF course yet PURR?? Is that where they told you that we will be having freedom dining and LGW crews will be 'bidding' for Oz routes on the 777?

Again, I ask you: What reference are you basing your claims on? I am able to say where I have gained my information. What about you?

I doubt you ever will of course, because judging by your views of BA and their crews in previous posts, at a guess I would say it is just wishful thinking on your part.

[Da Dog]

Dudes stop getting your nickers in a twist!

What do you think WW has been doin for 6 months whilst he worked "alongside" RE? He was sitting down deciding where the battles would be fought and for what, how far do you think this info has filtered down? Possiblty to JH, but when have managers ever spoken the truth? Come on guys (or gals) get real.

As a pilot who would have thought bidline would be under threat, who would have thought they would take away our pension? Its all on the table!!

As the X files said "trust no one" not even JH

To my mind anything is possible, and the workers at the coal face will be the last to hear............. welcome to the world of WW, maybe even BASSA won't get you out of this.

[flyer55]

Talks still going on this week re Singlefleet at LGW . EF LGW crew will only be on 737/777 (however some crew are Airbus trained and that includes 319, 320(bcal), 320 & 321), so not sure what is going to happen to that , but will be asking on my OOF day. EF LGW not going to be on 747. If WW wanted to make Mixed Flying @LHR he could easily get rid of 757 and 767 and be left with Airbus , 777 @ 747 = 3 licences . So watch this space!!!!

[theskyboy]

Flyer55,

Just out of interest the Airbus 319/320/32A/321 variants are all classed as one aircraft type for CAA purposes. So EOG crew would be able to fly Airbus/737/777 and still be 'legal'.

Cheers,

tsb

[flyer55]

Yeah thats true but EF LGW crew who are on the Airbus volunteered for it ! Airbus family are classed as one type aircraft.

[Flying_Sarah747]

If only the Australia base rumour was true...I'd be one very happy girl if it was! But it's all rubbish, and don't worry all you jealous people, Willie can't just change our contracts without us agreeing to it, which, obviously we won't if it's gonna ruin our conditions, so continue to hate us! :)

[beerdrinker]

Quote:
"The CAA only allows 3 aircraft on one flying licence so mixing Airbus family, B757, B767, B747 and B777 onto one licence"

Can we nail this on the head once and for all. Cabin Crew are NOT licenced.

Cabin Crew operations are regulated under JAR-OPS Sub part O. Cabin Crew are qualified by their company to work on aircraft operated by that company.

<<SECTION 1 JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O
SUBPART O – CABIN CREW
JAR-OPS 1.990(b)(2) (continued)
JAR-OPS 1.988 Applicability
(See IEM OPS 1.988)
[(a) A cabin crew member is a person who is
assigned by the operator to undertake tasks in the
cabin and shall be identifiable by virtue of an
operator’s cabin crew uniform to passengers as a
cabin crew member. Such persons shall comply with
the requirements of this Subpart and any other
applicable requirements of JAR-OPS 1.

[JAR-OPS 1.989 Terminology
Cabin Crew Member; A crew member, other than a
Flight Crew Member, who performs in the interests
of safety of passengers, duties assigned by the
operator or the commander of the aeroplane>>

Flight Crew also operate under JAR-OPS - Sub Part N. However they are licenced under JAR-FCL. For fixed wing operations it is JAR-FCL 1, Helicopters JAR-FCL 2, Medical matters are dealt with under JAR-FCL 3 and Flight Engineers under JAR-FCL 4.

There is no is no JAR-FCL for cabin crew. They are not licenced.

For information JAR-OPS regulations on Cabin Crew operating on more than one type are as follows:

<<JAR-OPS 1 Subpart O SECTION 1
1.1030 Operation on more than
one type or vari ant
(See ACJ OPS 1.1030)
An operator shall ensure that each cabin
crew member does not operate on more than three
aeroplane types except that, with the approval of the
Authority, the cabin crew member may operate on
four aeroplane types, provided that for at least two of
the types:
(1) Non-type specific normal and
emergency procedures are identical; and
(2) Safety equipment and type specific
normal and emergency procedures are similar.
(b) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (a)
above, variants of an aeroplane type are considered
to be different types if they are not similar in each
of the following aspects:
(1) Emergency exit operation;
(2) Location and type of portable safety equipment; and
(3) Type specific emergency procedures.>>

[keeperboy]

Wow Beerdrinker, thanks for the clarification!

But I dont really understand that last paragraph. It says that if two aircraft types are similar (say 319/320), a crew member can work on a maximum of four types.

But on BA short-haul they work on the 319/320/321/757/767.....5 types.

Maybe the 319/320 are considered variants of the same a/c?

Or maybe i'm just thick as sh*t and read the entire thing wrong? Lol

[beerdrinker]

KB,
you are quite correct. The 319,320 and 321 are variants of the 320. As such to operate on them you are required to have "differences" training. So SH at LHR operate 3 types: 75,76 and 320 plus 320 variants. As I understand it CC at LGw operate 3 types: 777;747 and 737. (within the 737 family there are several variants 300;400;500)

[justinzider]

WW sat in on an LHR Short Haul CC briaefing last month as an observer.

At the end of the briefing all he said was....

"One sector out is it?" ..... "That won't last."

[keeperboy]

Just outta curiousity juzinsider, how do you know he said this?

Surely if he had the management skills to attain the position of CEO with BA he would at least have the sense (and tact and diplomacy) to keep his thoughts to himself, or between himself and his peers, instead of saying something like that in front of his employees?

[sixmilehighclub]

Can we nail this on the head once and for all. Cabin Crew are NOT licenced

Apologies beerdrinker we have a misunderstanding. For those who apply for a position to become a CAA approved SEP Designated Examiner, you must hold a Cabin Crew Licence.

To apply for an SEP Instructor to the CAA you must hold a Cabin crew licence, limited to 10 aircraft types.

I didn't want to confuse Flight Crew/ Pilot licences (ie PPL, CPL, ATPL, etc) and maintenance (JAR-66, MultiX, BCAR, etc) licence holders who hold their own paper licences, with a cabin crew licence which is held by the employer. It's not the same sort of licence.

[williewalsh]

To be sure I'll have the lot of yee cuttin turf before the years out bejasus.

[OzzieO]

"WW sat in on an LHR Short Haul CC briaefing last month as an observer.

At the end of the briefing all he said was....

"One sector out is it?" ..... "That won't last."


WHAT UTTER BULL****.

[Da Dog]

OzzieO I would hate to agree with you, but in this instance i think you are spot on:p ;)

[flyer55]

beerdrinker only WW crew fly on 747, so WW LGW Crew fly on 777 & 747, whereas EF Crew in LGW currently fly on 737 (300,436,500 models) and some fly on Airbus but trained on all variants 319,320A,320, 321 as they classed as one type like the 737

[Flying_Sarah747]

I can't stop laughing at this...That Willie Walsh poster is hillarious! :ok:

As for what Willie was supposed to say in that short haul briefing...Best joke I've heard in ages!

I know, you should all quit your jobs at your various airlines because you're obviously not happy and become stand up comedians...You may earn as much as a BA cabin crew member then! :)

[Helli-Gurl]

I agree wirh Flying Sarah...Willie wont change a thing....the CC union is too strong and too clever to allow the CC to be bent over a barrell and shafted, the CC only have to call "strike" and the airline grinds to a halt very rapidly, the CC know it and they know WW knows it to ...... easier targets like BALPA for that!

[Carnage Matey!]

Three letters: AMP

WW has already shown BASSA who's the boss.

[PAXboy]

Let me, as a mere pax, risk throwing a cat among the pigeons...

Recently, there was a fuel shortage in Cape Town for some 36 hours or sure, details in African Aviation forum. For the BA 744 non-stop CPT ~ LHR, this was a problem. However, a suitable refuelling point was available with only a slight diversion. Upington had fuel and a mighty long runway. Upington is in the Cape Province and, essentially, directly north from CPT. The a/c could have departed Cape Town, made a tech stop at Upington and got on home with a minimum of delay.

As I understand it, the BASSA agreement does not allow the CC to do this - although flight crew COULD. This meant that the a/c was stuck at CPT and passengers were not being flown and the schedules were disrupted, money was being lost and folks were getting very agitated.

Is this the case?
Does the CC contract prevent them making a tech stop and thus prevent the a/c getting home?
If so - then this must be only for a tech stop that is known about before departure?
If a tech stop becomes neccessary en route, will the CC then not complete the journey, thus forcing the a/c to be stuck at the intermediate point?

Please clarify the situation to me as I would not want to make any comment on what is, currently, second hand information.

I understand that the situation was rectified by the flight crew taking the machine to Upington to tank up and then returning to CPT for another night stop, to reset their Hours. Then they made the return to LHR in the normal single hop.

[Helli-Gurl]

So what have the CC given then Carnage ? AMP merely brings them into line with the rest of BA, it'll still be BALPA caving in and the pilots getting shafted financially.....the CC unions havent really been shown who's boss at all as will be come apparent when WW goes after the rest of BA.

[apaddyinuk]

Paxboy, Im not too sure how to answer your question exactly whithout actually talking to a Bassa rep but I can certainly hazard a guess...which hopefully wont be a million miles off the fact!
The CC have different working time limitations then the flight crew. CPT already pushes the boundry of the maximum amount of time we can fly as it is one of the longest non-stop flights we operate. Now we certainly can do tech stops but obviously on a long flight the time we have to complete that tech stop is much shorter. Perhaps it was a case that with the time required to make the tech stop and fuel up the plane, it would have put the CC out of hours to operate the remainder of the flight home, either an additional stop would have to be made over north africa our southern europe for the cc to get some rest or they would have to be taken off the plane at the tech stop and allowed minimum hours rest!!!
This is just MY GUESS in the matter so dont shoot me down, I am just lending my opinion. The whole union agreements thing is a confusing one which I find very difficult to understand but just bere in mind that situations such as this are there to maximise the safety of everyone on board! Laugh if you will but until you have actually done the job, dont jest!

[fruitbat]

HG, that kind of attitude is very admirable, I'm glad you feel so secure. Maybe if you went and had a chat to some of our Aer Lingus friends you would be a little more wary.

If I was WW and read your post I would make it my number one aim to shaft you and all those with your arrogant, misinformed view. I'll make you an offer on you SLK when its up for sale in the New Year...

[Obfuscation]

PAXBoy, your fuel shortage story sounds very dubious to me. A 744 full of fuel, even without freight and pax would exceed the max landing weight for a short hop with from Upington to Cape Town. I would think also with an elevation of 850m, the possibility of tech stopping on the way to London would quite possibly be payload restricted, especially in the Summer. I do agree that it is absurd that CC hours could ever be more limiting than that of Flight Deck.

[apaddyinuk]

Obfuscation!!! You need to remember that on flights like this a relief pilot is carried so maybe that gives them longer duty hours than the cc....again only guess work here!!!

[Carnage Matey!]

Obfuscation - the Cape Town story is true. Cabin crew refused to tech stop resulting in a 24 hour delay.

Helli-Gurl - I knew you're posting was going to be a laugh when you said BASSA were too clever. Too stubborn perhaps, or too hard-nosed, but clever BASSA certainly ain't. After months of bluster and a pointed refusal to accept any sort of AMP, they went into the meeting full of fury and walked away several days later with exactly the same AMP as everyone else, meaning they delayed the payment to their members by almost a year for no reason. They also had a vote on possible industrial action and got less than a 20% return, and most of those were against industrial action. If you think "the CC only have to call "strike" and the airline grinds to a halt very rapidly" then you are deluding yourself. I don't think BASSA could manage a strike if their lives depended on it these days.

If you want to know what the CC have given then why not try to ask the CSD on the next A321 you are on? BASSA didn't like that move and were told where to stick it. Perhaps you'd like to have a good read of the new Worldwide Disruption Agreement which means BA gets far more out of the crew at the tiny cost of a hotel room if you're on early QRS. The tide has convincingly turned in the negotiations these days and BASSA is walking away from the table having made large sacrifices for virtually nothing in return.

Meanwhile BALPA members continue to enjoy the financial benefits of their pay benchmarking and restructuring exercise.:ok:

[yachtno1]

Roll on CARE pensions CM !:p

[Faire d'income]

I hope Sarah and Helli-Gurl aren't representative of the intellect throughout BA staff.

Instead of statements such as Willie wont change a thing....the CC union is too strong and too clever to allow the CC to be bent over a barrell and shafted

you would be better advised to have meetings with all the interested unions and form a joint-committee with a mandate to tackle any attack on any staff.

The story about the briefing may be untrue, but he is capable of such behavior.

It is mind boggling that a potential victim of WW is proclaiming You may earn as much as a BA cabin crew member then

as he rides into town. Lambs...slaughter...It wont be pretty.

[miche2]

Helli-Gurl - Having worked for BA, the unions aren't as strong as you presume - look at the EG300 just flying through, despite lots of "We'll strike...they can't touch us" attitude. And despite the 97 strike fiasco, the new pay deal DID happen!

I think it naive for (BA) crews to believe they won't face a few more changes (like that of EG300). Between my period at BA (1990-1999) there had ultimately been huge changes. Experienced BA crews will tell you that they really work like dogs now and for pennies -although shinier pennies than most other carriers.
Does it not register that the cost of flying is getting lower and lower and so cuts have to happen and conditions change?

[Turroncin]

Well I was quietly eating a Lion Bar in T4 arrivals and saw Willie W talking to the cleaners outside the Gents loo and could lip read the words "sack" and "cabin crew" and "loads of them" and my sister knows this guy who works as a dishwasher at an undisclosed pub above T1 departures says he overheard a convo between Willie W and a man in a suit who were having the "buy one get one free" early bird special brekkie and they were talking about buying Fokkers and getting all WW to train up on them to do SH from NWI!!! It's true and I also heard from the woman downstairs whose cousin lives in Crawley that she saw Willie W outisde Concorde House in LGW dressed up in an EZY uniform having a quick fag with a load of crew and they were really ALIENS and there's this big conpiracy to get all BA EF CC to work for METROBUS as drivers and run the number 20 to HORLEY and BA are going to sell all their planes and Willie is going to take the money to buy MINIBUSES and expand the Fastlink bus service to THE MOON and that's true and with the money they make from selling London Eye they're going to buy a BROTHEL outside Zaragoza and all remaining CC (those not trained on Fokkers from NWI or working on the buses to Horley/the Moon) have to work as go-go dancers and/or lap dancers at that brothel which will be in direct competition from Easyjet's new range of low-cost whore joints to be branded as "EasySlut" and Zaragoza will be BA's flagship brothel, with The Rivers being converted into the UK's biggest ever CASINO with all check-in staff having to work there TOPLESS and that's true 'cause my mum heard this the other day when she was sitting on the loo on the flight to Manchester with these 2 gossiping CC talking about all of this in the galley after they had dished out congelled pizza slices.

[Volmet South]

Don't under-estimate Helli's connections within the industry !

[Lets Get Wasted]

Well I was quietly eating a Lion Bar in T4 arrivals and saw Willie W talking to the cleaners outside the Gents loo and could lip read the words "sack" and "cabin crew" and "loads of them" and my sister knows this guy who works as a dishwasher at an undisclosed pub above T1 departures says he overheard a convo between Willie W and a man in a suit who were having the "buy one get one free" early bird special brekkie and they were talking about buying Fokkers and getting all WW to train up on them to do SH from NWI!!! It's true and I also heard from the woman downstairs whose cousin lives in Crawley that she saw Willie W outisde Concorde House in LGW dressed up in an EZY uniform having a quick fag with a load of crew and they were really ALIENS and there's this big conpiracy to get all BA EF CC to work for METROBUS as drivers and run the number 20 to HORLEY and BA are going to sell all their planes and Willie is going to take the money to buy MINIBUSES and expand the Fastlink bus service to THE MOON and that's true and with the money they make from selling London Eye they're going to buy a BROTHEL outside Zaragoza and all remaining CC (those not trained on Fokkers from NWI or working on the buses to Horley/the Moon) have to work as go-go dancers and/or lap dancers at that brothel which will be in direct competition from Easyjet's new range of low-cost whore joints to be branded as "EasySlut" and Zaragoza will be BA's flagship brothel, with The Rivers being converted into the UK's biggest ever CASINO with all check-in staff having to work there TOPLESS and that's true 'cause my mum heard this the other day when she was sitting on the loo on the flight to Manchester with these 2 gossiping CC talking about all of this in the galley after they had dished out congelled pizza slices.



:} :) :} :) :} :) :} :cool: :ok:

I LIKE IT !

[sevenforeseven]

Oh No, the gravy train finally is comming to a halt. What will the poor attendents do now????

[keeperboy]

Instead of making blase comments perhaps use some examples of:

a) Why it is a 'gravy train'.

and

b) Examples you have seen of how it is coming to a halt.

So far, these are what have been proposed to BASSA to look at in order to save GBP70M from in-flight services:

- Single fleet LGW
- 767 mixed flying for LHR eurofleet.
- Eurofleet adopting 'fixed links'.
- Eurofleet assisting with gate boarding.
- Disruption agreement for Eurofleet.

Non crew related:
- Reduction in product on shortes european sectors.
- Cancellation of BA bus services from crew report centre to central terminal area.

And at the very beginning of discussions:

- A limited number of ICC based crew on additional longhaul routes.
- A 'newer' new contract.

So I am sorry to disappoint, but nothing so far about slashing cabin crew pay, making them work like dogs, cleaning the a/c etc etc.

[Hand Solo]

Why it is a 'gravy train'

1.£35+ payment for a CAT turnaround
2.Double allowances paid to change trips during disruption on long haul.
3.Working one down payments on long haul.
4.Very generous box payments on long haul.
5.CSD and a Purser on 757

Examples you have seen of how it is coming to a halt.
1. No more CATs when T5 opens.
2. WW disruption agreement removes the need.
3. see above
4. T5 report times reduced, shorter duty days, fewer box payments.
5. No CSD on a 321.

Just a few of my thoughts.

[whattimedoweland]

My question regarding AMP is if it is so fair to all BA employees,why did BA feel it had to offer a £1000(before tax) bribe!!?.;)

Be it BA or any other company you have to doubt a policy like the above when money has to be offered!!.

Maybe it's just me or perhaps it was our 'caring' management team just being their normal,fair, all above board honest people we know they are:ugh: ......oh wait there goes another pig flying just past my window!!.:p .

WTDWL.

[keeperboy]

1. £35 CAT payment.
YES. THIS MAY GET THE CHOP IN THE LONG TERM.

2. Payment for working crew member down.
YES. AS PER VIRGIN AND MANY OTHER SCHEDULED AIRLINES.

3. Very generous box payments on long haul. VERY GENEROUS? MAYBE...IF YOU ARE LUCKY TO GET THE 'HIGHEST BOX' OR SEVERAL A MONTH. THESE ARE ONLY PAID FOR LONG RANGE FLIGHTS.
NO OTHER UK BASED AIRLINE HAS A SIMILAR ROUTE NETWORK TO BA SO YOU CAN'T REALLY MAKE COMPARISONS HERE. THANK GOD FOR THESE LONG RANGE PAYMENTS. PAID ON TOP OF OUR WHOOPING SALARY OF £10,500 P.A.
DON'T FORGET, FLIGHTS WITH 'BOX PAYMENTS' ARE IN THE MINORITY. MANY ROUTES HAVE DIRE ALLOWENCES. (EG. 3 DAY EAST COASTS APPROX £100. BOM/DEL APPROX £70 FOR A 3 DAY TRIP. MOST OF MIDDLE EAST/AFRICA: LOW ALLOWENCES, NO BOX PAYMENT)

4. Double Allowences paid/Disruption Agreement.
AGREED. MOST OF US WERE HAPPY THAT THE DISRUPTION AGREEMENT WAS RATIFIED BY MANAGEMENT AND THE UNIONS. WHAT CONSTITUTES 'DISRUPTION' IS DECIDED ON THE DAY BETWEEN THE UNIONS AND BA OPS. THE UNION HAS THE FINAL SAY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE DISRUPTION AGREEMENT IS IMPLEMENTED ON THE DAY.

5. A321 no CSD/CSD and Purser on B757.
TOTALLY AGREE. I THINK IT IS CRAZY TO NEED BOTH A CSD AND A PURSER ON A SINGLE AISLED A/C (ESPECIALLY WHEN BOTH OF THEM TAKE A/C OUT IN CHARGE).

Contrary to common belief, the unions are working well with BA management on most issues. Instead of management dictating where the cuts must be made, they have given the unions the amount that needs to be cut (£70M) and working together to decide where they want to make the cuts.

[Hand Solo]

1. Might? There ain't no CAT lounge in T5!

2. I believe Virgin get £10 each way for every crew member they work down. One down on a jumbo they get £20 for the round trip. BA crew will only work one down, regardless of passenger load, and are paid £186 for the inconvenience. Pursers and CSDs get more.

3. £200 for an extra box on a HKG. I know because they keep asking me to slow down! As for "NO OTHER UK BASED AIRLINE HAS A SIMILAR ROUTE NETWORK TO BA SO YOU CAN'T REALLY MAKE COMPARISONS HERE. THANK GOD FOR THESE LONG RANGE PAYMENTS. PAID ON TOP OF OUR WHOOPING SALARY OF £10,500 P.A. " it would seem Virgin Atlantic have dissappeared between your responses to points 2 and 3. They don't get an extra £200 for being 15 minutes late. I think their basic is lower too. There are plenty of lucrative routes on BAs network. Box payments on NRTx2, PEK, PVG, HKG x3,SINx2, BKK, LAXx3, SFOx2, MEX, GRU, JNBx2 and CPTx2. The far east trips have very good allowances too.

[dupont3700]

can someone please explain me what this box-thing is?

[Hand Solo]

Cabin crew get paid extra according to how long a sector is. As you pass certain thresholds you trigger a box payment. The payments are based upon actual sector length rather than planned length. The shorthaul equivalent is the CAT payment. They require about 3.5 hours for a turnaround at LHR, but will reduce to about 2 if they go to the Central Area Turnaround (CAT) lounge and get a CAT payment. Again these payments are based on achieved, not planned schedule. This is why often the first words the pilots will hear from the cabin crew are not "Hello" but "We need to be 20 minutes late".

[keeperboy]

A 'box payment' is a payment made for a long range sector. It is on a sliding scale and paid per sector. It ranges from about £100 for the lowest box up to about £220 for the highest box. BA defines a long range duty as 12.00hrs+ (night duty) or 12.5hrs + (day duty).

Handsolo::
Firstly, I have not missed out Virgin in my examples. The general consensus on many a pprune thread is that Virgin are pretty damn underpaid as far as airlines go, with many LCC and charter crews walking away with more at the end of the month.
How could you possibly compare VS route network to ours??. Apart from the 1 x daily NRT/HKG/PVG/DEL/BOM/SYD which they operate (with a MUCH higher ICC locally based crew ratio than us) all their flights are either straight down on westwards. So please, they have no where near the amount of east-west flying we do. BA eastwards: 3 x daily to HKG, 2 x daily to NRT, 2 x daily to BOM, 2 x daily to SIN, BKK, Syd, MEL, pakistan, more cities in india, nearly every city in the middle east.......

As for the difference in 'crew member down' payments. Perhaps that is why they often work a crew member down and BA DO NOT.

I know this because I am ex Virgin myself. We were always crew members down, running around like crazy trying to get the job done. Being nable to deliver what VS promises and also bear the brunt of the passengers dissatisfaction.

Since I have been on WW LHR (2.5 years) I have never operated a crew member down.

And who benefits most for this? The customer! Have a look at the Skytrax website at airlinequality.com. Read the 'customer opinions' of both Virgin and BA and compare! When I was at Virgin we had some amazing crew but we could only do so much on the aircraft constantly working crew members down and receiving little rest and much disruption...all for peanuts!

Actually, the VS basic salary is quite a bit more than BA's now days although BA's allowences continue to be better.

You are very quick to point out all the routes we get a 'Box' for. The double daily NRT (with 4 Japanese based crew) the 3 x daily HKG etc etc.

But you conveniently forget the 7 x daily JFK flights, the 4 x daily EWR flights, the 3 x daily ORD flights, the 3 x daily BOS flights, the 2-3 x daily MIA flights, the 3 x daily IAD flights, flights to philly/baltimore/detroit, 2 x daily YYZ/ the YUL, daily flights to nearly every city in the mid-east, double daily to BOM, delhi, islamabad, cairo, much of africa. Box payments are not paid. Now what do you think our rosters mainly consist of? SIN followed by HKG followed by NRT??? Think again!

Its more like JFK followed by DTW follwed by BOM followed by MAYBE the sniff of a Box 1 LAX or something.

As for "I know this becuase they keep on asking me to slow down...." No we don't! We rather leave a fifteen minute delay to chance as we know soon as you guys are told you put your feet to the floor and speed up! :p

[keeperboy]

PS. Didnt BA flight crew used to get box payments and CAT payments which they gave up in return for an increase in their basic pensionable pay?

How much does the average 747 captain earn?

How many days off per month (on average) does a S/H pilot get?

[Hand Solo]

There may have been box payments for flight crew but not in the last ten years. There were never CAT payments. The pay restructuring you allude to was funded by putting meal allowances into an hourly rate and resulted in adjustments (up and down) in gross but not pensionable pay.

The average 747 Captain earns the benchmark pay for a 747 Captain in KLM, Lufthansa and Air France but flies between 15 and 25% more hours p.a. compared to them.

I don't know how many days off per month a short haul pilot gets but I bet he flies a lot more hours per month and sectors (ie doing work) than the average short haul hostie.

You can't really compare BA to VS then say "apart from all the eastbound work they only go south or west". Virgins flying is as equally weighted to going west as hours, pus we fly to many middle east destinations which are 'easy' in jet lag terms. We also do much more of Africa than them. I can only speak for my personal experience but I regularly go east then west or vice versa with less than the 3 local nights you get for rest and it's really no bother.

BTW, you forget to mention the B2B payment for doing all those east coasters. Destination payments too.

[keeperboy]

I believe our (cabin crew) salaries would also be in the region of our collegues at KLM, Air France, Iberia and Lufthansa. Actually, I know AF's are considerably better, not just in money terms but also in conditions.

But that is the irony....when comparisons are made with cabin crew money/t&c's its always VIRGIN stews only get paid this much and do that much work....'.

When comparing the flight crews its a "benchmark to KL, AF and LH". :\

I was not suggesting that we do more eastbound flying than west, I was just pointing out that the majority of the flying we do has no Box payments.

Ahh bugger it, I think i should just give up and start a new post: "Why do BA Flight Crew hate their Cabin crew so much and feel the need to complain about their T&C's?? :p

Handsolo we all know that their are some selfish prima donnas in the cabin crew community, and us hosties will be the FIRST to cringe when they start off about how over-worked and under-paid they are. And yes, they can leave a sour taste in the mouth.

But the majority of us these days have come to BA from other airlines and truely appreciate the company we work for and are just trying to do a good job, and yes we are paid more than the industry average, but maybe thats why so many of us leave other airlines to come to BA? Maybe thats why so many stay at BA and give their all to keep passengers coming back and making a sustainable future for ourselves and BA?

We all know that changes will come, many will be inevitable. Not just for us, but you as well. For reservations, airport staff, baggage handlers and drivers.

Just don't throw us all in the same batch. The majority of us are not all about 'take take take'. We all want jobs in ten years time. But by the same token we don't want to be taken the p*ss out of either.

[whattimedoweland]

I would just like to point out to those who are reading this thread whatever we call certain types of payment is irrelevant,they made no sense to me when I started either!!.

I would also like to point out that it was BA management who asked the Unions both CC89 and BASSA to sign both the Long Range and Back to Back agreements.

Yes I feel very lucky for the pay I get and the T&C's (and need to fight to hold on to!!)I have and maybe that's still why many crew from other airlines apply to BA.

In general I feel I work with very professional crew who I feel are mature and will react well in an emergency,but there are always the few who need a rocket up their ****!!:) .

The one thing I won't do on an open forum is come into someone's part of the forum and constantly take swipes at my own colleagues.As regards asking for 15 minutes for this and that payment a Captain made it very claer to my crew when he said ''I fly to get passengers from A to B on time if not early''.I could only agree.I have never seen any pilot from BA openly talk about how much they get paid on DRAFT or FORCED DRAFT.I think all would find those figures even more breathtaking than the figures for the above mentioned cabin crew payments;) .

Yes we get good box and B2B payments because we don't sell our conditions too easily.Maybe if we had some of our extras included into our basic we may now be on the hourly rate(which I am not against).BA would not even consider a chock to chock payment for cabin crew like the pilots, just the flat rate.

As Keeperboy has said there have been plenty of positive talks between both cabin crew unions and BA and there are some more going on at the moment.All sides must realise change is needed and we as cabin crew must realise that we will lose money when T5 arrives, with reducion in box payments.Yes the few quid we lose personally will be felt by all but if the overall savings made by the company together with things like missed connections keep us in business,then we all get paid next month.BA is still not out of the mess.Don't forget when we mess up we don't have Chapter 11 to bail us out year after year!!.

Cabin crew have been asking for a better choice of lifestyle more to the point some sort of say in what they do.WorldWide have asked for a bid system similar to flight crew and an ability to bid for a single days laeve rather than blocks of four when you don't need them.However BA will not even look at this until we accept the hourly rate.Hopefully both sides can make some headway on this.

The refreshing thing is when downroute 99.9% of our pilots if they have an opinion on the earnings of the cabin crew do not express it because they're either very polite and know it's not their concern anyway or as normal getting the first round in:ok: .Mine's normally the second.:p

In-fighting on an open forum does not show us in a good light,in fact a false light.

WTDWL.

[Hand Solo]

You'll find the rates for draft and force draft are exactly the same. They are both time and a half, which is not unreasonable for overtime, especially as it may be compulsory overtime. Incidentally, my hourly rate for flying a 747 is £8 per hour more than I paid the VW technician for fixing my car!:mad: Robbing gits!

Anyway, the second round isn't yours, it's mine.;) And a couple of later ones when people are flagging a bit. And a nightcap in my room for everyone (no I don't want to shag you, it really is just a drink).

[whattimedoweland]

No shagging Solo ,I keep to the saying ''don't dip the payslip'';).

You sound like good value on a nightstop,maybe a couple of late one's in 'Andys Bar' SFO :ugh: .

Who's engines do you feel better with is the question,the one in your overpriced VW or the RR's strapped to the wings?.

WTDWL. :ok:

[ChewyTheWookie]

I did a FCO there and back not long ago and the Captain had been force drafted. He happily told us that he was getting a GRAND for 8 hours work. He also told us that the 3 day trip he had on volontary draft was going to pay for his skiing holiday.

Just to clarify something for some of the people who post here without having a clue what they are talking about, CAT payments do not exist! We are not paid for going to the CAT lounge. They are Short Turnaround Payments and we will continue to get them in T5 unless there is a major change in agreements. Even if, as threatened, we start getting fixed link, we will still be getting the payment.

As for the bit about CSDs and pursers on A321 and 757, I have to agree there that it is not neccesary to have 2 senior crew on those aircraft. Last time I worked with a purser at the back of a 757 it was a disaster, he simply didn't have a clue what to do as he wasn't used to an economy service, we could have coped much better alone as we usually do.

[Hotel Mode]

I did a FCO there and back not long ago and the Captain had been force drafted. He happily told us that he was getting a GRAND for 8 hours work.

Either he lied or Galley FM picked a figure and doubled it.

500 quid if was lucky, before tax. He's only be paid for the flying not duty. Draft is 1.5 x hourly rate which is basically pensionable salary /1043. He'd have to have been on over 250000 for that to work for a 5hr rome. And he must have been skiing at the local dry slopes too!

How much is your day off worth?

[Hand Solo]

They are Short Turnaround Payments and we will continue to get them in T5 unless there is a major change in agreements.

Exactly. Your agreement says you go to Compass, but you'll have a hard time getting in when BA don't lease the building anymore. Hence your agreement will have to be rewritten, and when things are rewritten they have to be re-negotiated and now you're dealing with competent negotiators instead of the muppets that said yes to whatever BASSA asked for in the past.

[whattimedoweland]

Solo, 'competent' and 'negotiator/manager' at BA, are like 'happily' and 'married', a total contradiction.:ok:

Calm down it's no good for your blood pressure:p .

WTDWL.

[ChewyTheWookie]

[QUOTE=Hand Solo]Exactly. Your agreement says you go to Compass[QUOTE]

Total rubbish, the agreement says nothing of the sort. I'm not going into details (none of your business) but I will say that the agreement is to do with the amount of time between sectors, not where the crew go for their break.

[Hand Solo]

Fair enough. You'll have no objection to going to CAT every turnaround then, no matter how long? That'll save some bus drivers. Where does your agreement say you report and clear? Still think it won't need a re-write?

[ChewyTheWookie]

Hand solo, what does "where we report and clear" have to do with anything?

Personally I would happily go to the CAT every turnaround, it would mean we'd have less messing about with buses and more time to eat/sleep/watch TV etc...

[Hand Solo]

If it says Compass in your agreement then your agreement gets rewritten when we go to T5. Then we're back to the position of two posts ago when the horse-trading starts. You didn't really expect them to just take out the old agreement, cross out where it says Compass and replace it with T5 did you? Or have you missed the 'Fit for 5' slogans that have been plastered around BA premises for the last 3 years? That applies to you too.

[TopBunk]

The EF CC, when asked, often cite the need to have a break from the passengers as the reason why they need to go to Compass/CAT lounge when transitting LHR.

I ask one question, why then can you do a LHR-ARN-LHR (for example) with a 40 minute turnaround, but not a ARN-LHR-ARN (for example) with the same 40 minute turnaround?

Clearly the break in LHR has absolutely nothing to do with the need to get away from passengers for a while and everything to do with archaic practises of the type WW is vowed torid the airline.

[SuperStewardess]

So, just out of interest then.. is it still worth anyone joining British Airways as cabin crew on a 'new' contract? It appears to me that most allowances for any airline are taxed at a lower rate anyway, so isn't it better to get more in allowances rather than a higher basic salary? In my experience, a small minority of flightcrew would have you believe that they earn hundreds of thousands of pounds, but with taxation the way it is in this country, if you go over a certain threshold, you effectively 'lose' a third of your salary anyway and is it really worth it..?:ok:

[purr777]

But all in all the current working practices do NOT reflect the changes in aviation over the last decade. The terms and conditions may be suited to how flying was, but working in the flying world nowadays is similar to working 'on the trains' with the passenger numbers and cheap prices involved.
It has to be said that WW has a definite plan - i.e start from the top and move down so the workers cannot say management haven't taken further cuts!

[ChewyTheWookie]

I ask one question, why then can you do a LHR-ARN-LHR (for example) with a 40 minute turnaround, but not a ARN-LHR-ARN (for example) with the same 40 minute turnaround

Because if we were to demand a break on the LHR-ARN-LHR it would mean the a/c would be sitting on stand in ARN doing nothing for a while and being of no use to anyone. We're not happy about it, why the hell should we be doing that sort of day without a break? It's illegal for people in offices to work for that long without a break and they're not running around like headless chickens at 40,000ft.

I know now that all the "non-cabin crew" frequenters of this forum will now say "but the other airlines do it, why shouldn't BA?". Well personally I think cabin crew are treated like dirt by far too many carriers.

It seems some people here would like nothing more than to see all of us at BA in the gutter with no money. At the moment I earn what I consider to be a fair wage, it covers my rent and bills in this part of the country with a little left over to have a holiday once in a while and save for a new car. I think that is perfectly fair, why should it be reduced? No matter what form the agreements take, they make up part of our take home pay

[Hotel Mode]

You're having a laugh right? Stockholm and back "that sort of day" its only 2 1/2 hours each way.

In all seriousness short turnrounds means shorter working days if you keep the current protections on sectors etc. Wouldn't you rather do quick turnrounds and get home earlier? I dont think its necessarily a bad thing.

[Hand Solo]

But then they'd get less allowances, which is the whole point of them sitting around Compass half the day! So when they say they 'work' a 60 hour week and get fewer days off than the pilots its because they want it that way to make the money.

[ChewyTheWookie]

You're having a laugh right? Stockholm and back "that sort of day" its only 2 1/2 hours each way.

+ hour of briefing, getting to a/c, boarding, + hour turnaround + hour for deboarding, getting back to base, taxiing, paperwork etc...

Makes it an 8 hour day in my book, with NO break.

[ChewyTheWookie]

But then they'd get less allowances, which is the whole point of them sitting around Compass half the day!

The god sake you people are pathetic. Our allowances are the money we earn, in most jobs it's called a "salary", for us it's different.

Fine, shorten the day and take away allowances. But who the hell is going to work for BA for £10k a year and no breaks during working hours?

I have no idea who you lot are but you just sound like a load of jealous kids who don't like other people having something better than you. Or maybe you're BA pilots who have conveniently forgotten that you once had similar agreements which were "sold" in return for a massive increase in basic pay.

I'm just pleased to say that the agreements won't be changing much as long as the TU's exist so this whole discussion is irrelevant.

[Hotel Mode]

Apart from on the crew bus, after cabin secure on departure, after the service is done, after secure on landing and even with 40 mins you should manage at least 10 mins sat down on the ground! I have never seen a BA crew manage an ARN and back without a break for food and drink, it just doesnt happen.

[Hand Solo]

Temper temper, no need for a tantrum. Just a few posts ago Keeperboy asked how many days off a short haul pilot got in comparison to a short haul hostie. It's stating the bleeding obvious to say you can have the same daays off if you want but it's going to cost you money. Now this massive increase in basic pay your talking about, been listening to galley FM again?

But who the hell is going to work for BA for £10k a year and no breaks during working hours?

All the people who work for bmi?
I'm just pleased to say that the agreements won't be changing much as long as the TU's exist so this whole discussion is irrelevant.
Have you been walking around with your eyes shut for the last 12 months?

[ChewyTheWookie]

I have never seen a BA crew manage an ARN and back without a break for food and drink, it just doesnt happen.

I'm not surprised you've never seen it... According to your profile you fly the 744. I've never seen a ARN done on one of them.

[whattimedoweland]

Chewy and Solo,

Now come on or we'll have to give you both detention if this continues.

Solo take time out and concentrate on WW hate of your bid line.The fact that most flight crew bar the 757/767 guys are working the the legal max does'nt seem to bother him!!.He does not like the fact you have a choice to bid for days off especially the weekends.God forbid adults flying aircraft with family should want a weekend off,Willie it's just not on!!;) .Go and beat the drums on the BALPA website and let us know something about your own community.

Chewy I've been around a lot longer than you(some would say too long) and seen all the threats of lossing money etc and it's all come to nothing.This time will be different,be warned WW will be looking to cut costs in ALL areas,be it the bid line for our pilots or one Captain instead of two on some routes,less nightstops to save on hotac,reduction in box payments,CAT payments or whatever else,he will look at everything.

Natural savings will be made with T5 having all flights under one roof equalling less passengers having to become olympic athetes to make their connections and BA having to rebook or pay out,less M.T. drivers,more internet booking of tickets,self check in from home or in the terminal,the list goes on.

Chewy none of us are going to like what may be on the way,but instead of getting worked up about it lets wait and see what is planned,then we can move forward hopefully through negotiation and common sense from all parties,dealing with problems if or when they arrive.

WW will look and act and if groups of workers have had it too good for too long he will change and if they don't move with the change they will go or be outsourced.

Too big a reduction in front line staff and product will have a direct affect on our customers who have a great choice of airlines these days.So if cuts are to be made in these areas they must be done with caution in mind and must not hurt the people who pay our wages,the passenger.

Well I'm off to chill now with a couple of cold beers and a couple of large nightcaps to ward off the flu!!:ok:

Chill everyone.

WTDWL. :cool:

P.S. CHEWY,you may just find your colleague Hotel Mode may have done a few years on Eurofleet,just a thought!!!.

[TopBunk]

Because if we were to demand a break on the LHR-ARN-LHR it would mean the a/c would be sitting on stand in ARN doing nothing for a while and being of no use to anyone. We're not happy about it, why the hell should we be doing that sort of day without a break?

Chewy,

But it's not a new thing --- you've been doing it since the year dot, since Pontius was a pilot. It has always been accepted, without complaint. Sorry, your argument fails there.

What happens is that when you get a LHR-ARN-LHR is that you get increased clear times (which may or may not trigger extra allowances) because of a 'long' day, even though you get to your cars at the same time as the pilots. This day is further extended to pay in duty free bars that often don't exist!

I only give these as examples of practises totally incompatible with the late 20th century, let alone the 21st! They are all designed to 'get your hours up' without doing any work that generates revenue.

Yes, we did renegotiate the 'whole' package a few years ago and yes the company were less than transparent with you, but you still get paid for early morning reports, telephone allowances and chr*st knows what else. These agreements, let alone the CAT payments to do nothing, are under serious scrutiny by WW. Be afraid, very afraid. You know as well as I do that every single person - yes, even on the new contract, says that life in BA as CC is a piece of p*ss compared to BMI etc.

[ChewyTheWookie]

The thing I really don't think people seem to realise is that it's not BA being particularly easy on us, it's bmi, easyjet and the charter airlines treating their staff like ****. If a comparaison is going to be made, the point should be that they are being treated badly.

I don't care which airline anyone works for, no-one should be working all day without a break and no-one should be working all day for £10k basic in London and no allowances.

I don't care what people say, BA crew do not often get a chance to take 10 mins and have a proper break during a flight. The other day I did a IST there and back on 767, high club load both ways. We got to the aircraft 30 mins after briefing (no, the wait for the bus and the journey does not count as a "break"). We did our checks and boarded, did the demo and sat down for 10 minutes as we taxiied out (no, this is not a "break" either). As soon as was safe after wheels up we started the service, this took the best part of 2 hours. As soon as the service was done I shoved a crew meal down in 2 minutes flat before starting duty frees. This took the best part of another hour, by which time we were 20 minutes out of IST. We landed, taxiied, got the pax off, did the checks and then got barged about by cleaners for 20 minutes until it was time to board again and everything repeated...

We got back to Compass 10+ hours after we left and didn't get a proper "break" at all. If we were in the offices we'd have probably spent the best part of 2 hours having lunch and tea breaks during the day and we wouldn't have been rushing about at high altitude.

Anyway, who knows what WW is looking at? Everyone seems so convinced that he is going to start attacking CC agreements, has he actually told someone that?

[whattimedoweland]

In general Top Bunk a good post.I for one know how good things are at CC BA compared to others.However these things were agreed over the years with the signatures of both the Management and the Unions.

If someone is doing better than someone else should they give it up and reduce their pay and conditions to bring them level with others or should others aim for what you have.

Many pilots aim for BA,(EK,full package inc accommodation,tax incentive etc),because they want a better life for themselves and/or their families.I do not blame them at all and I wish them good luck.

Why therefore should we at BA Cabin Crew not aim for the same?.I pay the mortgage on a 3 bed semi,drive a '96 car,have 2 kids ,one of which is in further education and the 9 year old who thinks he has a direct link to Argos!!.One holiday a year.Which part of this should I give up to make the rich even richer(shareholders)!!?. WW will be here for 3/4 years, trim the company/staff and then f*** off with £3-4 million share options and bonus.

I know we as Cabin Crew are going to take hits and there are areas were we can.These have to be negoticated.If these cut backs had been acheived years ago and people in the 'Waterworld' realised that the company was top heavy and we rely on pilots and front line staff the forthcoming cuts may not have hurt as much as they will.

If the aim of this thread is to reduce the earnings of cabin crew to benefit the future pay of others I think it stinks!!.

I appreciate the work load and responsibility you guys at the front have and I do not begrudge you a penny of what you earn.Why is it so important to you what I and other BA crew earn.At the end of the day I pay my mortgage not yours!!.

Please act as a colleague and not the enemy.I thought for some reason we got on as crew at BA.But from the postings on here I begin to wonder.I still believe the vast majority of my flight deck colleagues appreciate the job I do and have no problem with what I earn.Maybe it's only the few on Pprune and Crewcom who hold these views.

I'll delivery more good service next week and bring back the passengers who pay your wages.

WTDWL.

[ChewyTheWookie]

whattimedoweland,

that post is first rate and I applaud you for it. :ok:

Just out of interest, what name do you go by on crewcom (PM if you like).

[SuperStewardess]

ChewyTheWookie.. I have read with great interest this post just to see why everyone seems to be getting there 'knickers-in-a-knot' but was concerned also that you seem to think that the majority of other airlines out there 'treat there staff like ****' well, I'm sorry to shatter anyones illusions out there, but the airline I work for doesn't treat me like **** at all.. I work for a very forward thinking company who positively encourages every member of it's staff on a daily basis, we have 'confirmed seat' staff travel, free car parking at a location less than 100 metres from my crew room, I have a free uniform & allowances to replace it at anytime. A contributory pension scheme.. A whole host of special staff offers & bargains for major chain & other retail, sports & leisure outlets.. I get to fly on lovely shiney new planes most of the time.. I get food, sandwiches & 'goodies' while I'm at work, oh, and I get a total package salary of over £25,000 a year.. If it's that bad where you are, come and join me & my friends, we work hard, but it really is great.:ok:

[ChewyTheWookie]

Superstewardess,

I think you may have missed the point completely...

I'm not complaining about where I am, I am very happy there. I am complaining about the way everyone seems hell bent on seeing everything about my job ripped to pieces so i end up working much harder for less money.

[theskyboy]

Just wanted to echo Chewy's applause of whattimedoweland. For once someone has taken time to reply properly.

Shouldn't we all be worrying about the fact that we have no pension when we retire. Something I think is far more pressing at this moment in time.

Are all the pilots replying on here long-haulers by the way? Can't remember any of you getting so upset when we chat about these things on night stops in Europe.

Please stop winding each other up. Pprune is becoming SO tedious because of it.

tsb

[Hubbly]

Why is there this eternal battle that certain members of the flight crew community feel that they have to slate CC for what they earn?? Could you please explain that. I thought that being a part of a commercial airline was that the Flight crew and Cabin crew were to work together to get the pax from A to B. Contractual agreements decide pay and T and C's!! As individuals we do not have any real control over these, that is why we have elected representatives to support us through this process

Another thing to point out, whilst you are all bickering about what WW is going to do to Cabin crew, I would like to point out that flight crew will not be immune from his touch either. So do take that into consideration.

No one likes change, but change is inevitable. WW was bought in specifically for this reason, so let's face the facts and get on with it.

[OzzieO]

Quiet simple Hubbly jealousy!

[Hotel Mode]

I would like to see short haul around in 10 years time if at all possible, and i really dont get the fixed link problem. Surely BA gain from increased productivity, you gain more time at home. The short turnround payment still exists so no loss of cash. The more BASSA fight these simple things the more everything else will come under the microscope.

[ChewyTheWookie]

The fixed link problem is simple, BA will have us operating all day (up to 4 sectors) without a break.

I don't care what the pilots do, or what any other airline does. It is not fair to get cabin crew working all day and not setting aside a single minute for them to rest and have a proper meal.

[Have you heard this!]

There is absolutely NO REASON why crew shouldn't have a break whilst flying. So long as the Purser is a good time manager this shouldn't be a problem. It is important for crew to have a break and something to eat
during their working day, just as important as providing a service to a passenger.

[Re-Heat]

I don't care what the pilots do, or what any other airline does. It is not fair to get cabin crew working all day and not setting aside a single minute for them to rest and have a proper meal.
If the business is not competitive you have no choice. Why not stop stamping your feet and constructively try to heigten the productivity of the company, while incorporating sensible policies to ensure staff comfort and morale?

[whattimedoweland]

Have You Heard This,

Regardless of the Purser it is difficult on Eurofleet to get a break on the flight,maybe on the Athens,Larnaca you can get a sit down in the galley.On short sectors you are there to serve the passengers and rarely have a spare minute.

I tell you this from my practical working experience as a CSD on both Eurofleet and now Worldwide.On Worldwide we have set breaks and ensure people eat before their break.Even on our long flights when you try and have your crew meal:ugh: , even with the curtains pulled passengers for some reason still want to have a peep!!,so you never actually get any privacy for your meal.At the same time we still realise we are there for the passengers and not the other way round!!.

I have to say the workload of my colleagues is high and they must be given their chance to eat on a turnround. We like everyone else are entitled to 20 minutes break per four hours worked.

Cabin crew is not like working on the ground.I have worked in loading,baggage and check-in all of which are tough jobs in their own ways.Cabin crew is different you work at altitude and the pressure of the cabin can be very tiring.Up and down,pressurising and depressurising your body four times a day is not at the best of times good for the health.This is why I believe Eurofleet require a proper sit down meal and a break.

These are just my thoughts from experience.

WTDWL.

[flapsforty]

We like everyone else are entitled to 20 minutes break per four hours worked.

whattimedoweland could you tell me please, is that UK law? And if so, does it apply to cabin crew? In Holland the law says that people working on the ground are entitled to a meal break on an 8 hour shift, but this includes neither pilots nor FAs. :( As a result, on short hual it is up to the Purser to fight ground staff and resist gentle pressure from the pilots to assure that once a day, the FAs get a chance to sit down for 10 mins and wolf down a hot meal.
Of course with hoovers buzzing everywhere, cleaners running around and a nice freezing draft reviving you because both the back and the front door are open. ;)
To manage this for your crew, you have to be both diplomatic and not easily intimidated. :)

[flyblue]

hoovers buzzing everywhere, cleaners running around and a nice freezing draft reviving you because both the back and the front door are open

This definitely reminds me something! ;)

[DarkStar]

Better get used to the sound of the hoover. I understand that CC will be directed to clean the cabin during short turnrounds. No matter how you swing you handbag's its going to happen sooner than you think. Its called competition!:E

[theskyboy]

<Yawn> ZZZZzzzzz

[Have you heard this!]

There is NO EXCUSE for not having time for something to eat whether on the ground or in the air. Even on short sectors there is the opportunity on turnaround.

[crew74]

I've been reading all these comments on how well above standards BA crews are treated, and I must say that:
-we have agreements that are quite similar to most major airlines(AF,UAL LH)
-we tend to have better work conditions that UK low cost carriers but the money we take home isn't much higher.
-I flew seasonally for AF and had about 18 days off a month, flew 9 yrs for UAL and averaged 16 days off a month, now fly for BA and have 10 days off a
month (for about the same take home money)
Conclusion:BA CC don't have it sooo nice and easy as some pilots like to think.
Also why does it bother you so much what sort of agreement we have or not have?At the end of the day I clear about 1700£/month and have 2 more days off than an office worker.I really don't see what it is that's so shocking about that .Maybe you should think outside the box ,and admit that, on the job market, a bilingual college graduate could end up with a much higher salary.

[Turroncin]

Hmm well clearing £1700 isn't bad at all. I work at a university, I have a PhD and clear an overwhelming £1200 a month, which for London let's face it isn't much. I think PSCOs for the Met Police earn more than me. But then this just is a reflection of how highly the British regard their education system I guess.... as a result I'm waiting for my training date to be cabin crew as I probably will earn more and it will make a nice change :)

[flyer55]

The fixed links seem to work at EF LGW and it isnt just flight crew that dont get breaks Cabin Crew as well!!:ugh:

[Stirling]

We got back to Compass 10+ hours after we left and didn't get a proper "break" at all. If we were in the offices we'd have probably spent the best part of 2 hours having lunch and tea breaks during the day and we wouldn't have been rushing about at high altitude.

CTW - I apologise for responding to this a touch late on in the discussion. Generally I applaud you and your colleagues for your proposed stand in this matter, but the above comment has me a little annoyed. I'm saddened by your obvious blinkered approach to us office workers, as I constantly work in excess of a 12 hour day in the Compass Centre with nowhere near approaching 2 hours worth of breaks. I am in the very fortunate position of managing my time, but if I did not put in the hours it would reflect unbelievably poorly on me, my clooeagues and my department. The workload we now face warrants these hours also. My days are always of this length and this is MY choice. I do not have the luxury of mixing short and long sectors. The only difference is that you work at altitude, something that I have chosen not to do.