Eurocopter's laughable AOG system

[EESDL]

Just a quick rant whilst engineers search high and low for spare parts for a 355.
Pathetic supply system that quotes >2 weeks for AOG spares, then they fail to deliver anyway.

McAlpines reputation has gone down the plughole with this one.

AOG for a month now - getting rather peeved.

Is this a 'Eurocopter' thing or other manufacturers just as bad?

[SilsoeSid]

As far as I am aware, no problems in the MD spares department at the moment.

:ok:
SS

[widgeon]

One of the main reasons EC have ranked so low in Pro-pilot surveys in the past is spares performance , don't blame Mac the problem is on the European end. A difference in US and Euro thinking , I have been told that Bell don't think twice about robbing parts from the production line to satisfy a customer AOG , at EC production rarely release parts to satisfy customer requirements.

[moosp]

About four months AOG with an EC120 sent to EC Singapore for repairs. To be fair about half that can be attributed to delay with the insurance assessment. Once the engineers start work they are good.

Our frustration was that they would not order the parts until the insurers had promised to pay. So I feel that the required parts were ordered two months "late". We said we would cover any cost to EC if the insurer did not pay (we have to get the machine flying somehow) but their procedures were rigid.

Add two weeks downtime for the French August, which seems to occur in EC facilities worldwide and the time drags on.

Light has appeared in the tunnel last week with a visit from a senior executive from EC who has authorised the robbing of the production line for our bits.

"Luckily" this is a private machine but if we were a business neeeding cash flow we would be closed down by now. There must be a better way...

[HeliEng]

EESDL,

I think you are being a bit unfair on McAlpine.

How is it their fault?

If EC don't have the spares, EC don't have the spares. Do you think that they have a magic wand or a big box of stuff "out the back" that they don't tell anyone about?

What are you AOG for by the way??

Regards

Helieng

[EESDL]

HeliEng
Strangely enough, the company mount is on the books because it's an essential management tool in company's line of work. It's not a toy, owners' hobby etc etc

Am beginning to wonder if macs hold any spares on the shelf at all....and before you tell me about the 'Just in Time' supply teaching....that only works if there are spares promptly available down the line. So , while the root of the problem may be with the spares provision philosophy at Eurocopter.......

If macs harp on about being the sole distributor then I do not think that it's unreasonable to drag them into the argument - otherwise why have a distributor?
A distributor of what exactly?
They well may be tearing their hair out trying to source spares but one cannot help feeling that the ball has been dropped on the spares issues.

AOG for a couple of cusps for the tail rotor - is the latest part.

Just had another 'new' part delivered that was actually u/s!

I don't think the boss particular minds which make of helicopter that he gets on (as long as it's not a 109!!) - just had a glossy Bell brochure through the post.
V interested to hear of their spares provision mentality.

Don't forget the other side of this predicament.
You have a bunch of engineers wasting an inordinate amount of time trying to track down spares that, theoretically (atleast that's what the brochure says) should be available at the touch of a button!

What do you suggest? Change helicopter type?

[paco]

To keep working, if you buy anything Eurocopter, I would recommend you buy a bunch of spares at the same time - Macs are only the poor guys in the middle, although sending stuff through them does add a couple of days at each end of the process.

Having said that, weren't there a bunch of Allison turbine wheels destined for H & S that were nabbed by the US Army before they even left the US? Despite that, I have found that the Bell support is a lot better, especially since they have authorised shops all over - Eurocopter tends to be a bit more centralised, with the obvious problems.

phil

[The Tox]

Don't limit your thinking to just parts supply, their technical support is equally as abysmal and these observations are not revelations to those that have a lot to do with EC.

With many examples to choose from, one of the most satisfying was a recent episode where we ordered a replacement part on a priortiy basis and after 30 days upgraded to AOG. We still had to wait another 45 or so days for the part to arrive on site. In the meantime, we had an aircraft grounded. The solution was to re-engineer the faulty component under an Engineering Order using Bell Helicopter fuel cell parts & MS bolts (because they were the best parts for the repair).

EC's excuse was that the factory did not have any spares in stock.

[NickLappos]

An AOG at Sikorsky or at Gulfstream gets everybody's attention - everybody. Robbing the line is certainly drastic, but always done if that is the only way to get a customer up and flying. We even rob the company owned aircraft, and AOG them, if necessary.
The only exception is when a military customer insists on his own spares stockage, and does not sign up for (and pay into) the rotable pool of spares that is available. Then they made the choice, and are usually made to stick with it (although even then, the company can't stand to sit by while an aircraft sits.)

[Thomas coupling]

I can only comment from our perspective as a group of 16 operators (police eurocopter user group)...perhaps there's the reason.
But ECD have probably been 90%+ available for spares [For ECD read McA too].
Their customer support has been satisfactory to say the least.

It also helps if written maintenance contracts have clauses built into them regulating the spares pipeline, time frames / penalties etc. A watertight contract.

[Droopy]

I've heard that EC are revising their stores stock/philosophy to a "just in time" basis, which is rapidly becoming a "not quite in time especially if you go u/s on a Friday". So far we've seen AOG downtime go from a day or two to three or four days. Are they on the verge of losing their grip?

[SHortshaft]

As Widgeon says this is “A difference in US and Euro thinking…”

Eurocopter truly believe that this problem belongs to the operator and not the manufacturer. The Eurocopter philosophy is that the buyer of a helicopter should invest at least 10% of the cost of the helicopter in a stock of spares…and if the operator doesn’t then the fact that the aircraft is grounded is poor planning by the operator and not a support issue.

Bell does seem to have to a different culture. They still seem to think that 24-hour AOG service means the parts will leave Bell bound for the operator within 24 hours. For Eurocopter 24-hour AOG service means that within 24 hours they will tell you when you are going to receive the spares, which could be in several months time.

Moosp’s observation about EC SEA wanting to see the colour of the money before they do any work is understandable… up to a point. Having seen that particular scene played out more than once, even to the point where the aircraft had to be sold in order to raise the money promised, I can understand any repair shop’s reluctance to accept an assurance of payment from the insured. Perhaps an offer of a bank guarantee or even prepayment would have expedited the matter. It is sad that aircraft owners are perceived by suppliers as rogues (or bad risks), but perhaps that is because many of us/them are!

[Bertie Thruster]

Wot no PANews comment?

[BigMike]

"Eurocopter truly believe that this problem belongs to the operator and not the manufacturer"

What an incredible statement... no wonder everone slags Eurocopters support.
We had a 427 go AOG recently, parts sent straight away and in Czech with 48 hours, aircraft serviceable next day. It is very hard to fault Bells customer support, but then I have found it the same with most US companies.
What is the support like from Eurocopter USA?

[HeliComparator]

As some will know I am generally a fan of EC products but in this case I must join the anti-EC side. Their spares supply is really bad. I am told that its to do with the fact that their parent company EADS dictated that one computer system for the entire group shall be used for all spares, and whilst it works OK for Airbus it doesn't for EC. They say they are/have addressed the problem but IMHO its still bad. Anyway, whatever the internal reasons they may have are irrlevant when you are the customer with the AOG aircraft.

Come on EC you need to do better!

[widgeon]

It is a bit sad to blame SAP for spares problems , the problems pre exist the change to new software ( as do some of the back orders LOL ) Biggest frustration I had when dealing with the EC supply system was when you were told part was on back order but never given a realistic delivery date. Have they completed the move of Logistics from Marignane to La Courneuve ?, that was supposed to improve things as items could generally be shipped the same day.

[The Tox]

I don't think shipping has ever really been the problem. If one can recall the amount of times that EC has made announcements espousing improvements to the supply system one may be able to recall the amount of times solutions to shipping problems were included in the announcements. But here we go comparing notes and having the same conversations again.

It seems from the comments of other contributors to this forum that some operators have not suffered the same degree of delay/s. We have suffered inexplicable delays for parts and tech support. These issues were taken up with EC and their response was that being a small fleet operator in Oceania, we didn't have the same priority as some of the 'local' large fleet operators such as the military. While this may make some sense to some readers, it's difficult to lend one's support to the excellent product when the product support is so poor.

Just-in-time supply of parts is a function of good production management but it does not provide good field support. While an operator can invest in a stock holding, it would be almost financial suicide to hold every component, nut & bolt in stock, especially at the prices EC charge for spares. A mutual benefit relationship between the operator and the manufacturer has to exist whereby good product support will promote the product itself. However, in this case it seems that the two will never meet.

[Ring spanner]

Australian Aerospace (Europlopter) has the same AOG problems, can not even give exact delivery dates. Still waiting for line items for 355's " 4 MONTHS NOW" N1 gauge $44k Get real.

[Head Turner]

In my experience, I too have to join the Anti-EC brigade. Having suffered on more than one occasion with the helicopter sitting on the ground waiting spares. 3 months is NOT an acceptable time to wait for any spare. In defence of an earlier criticism of Agusta, I actually found that they were always quick to respond and spares were even brought by hand from Italy 'pronto', something that EC have probably not thought of.

[EESDL]

EC surely realise that when they give a delivery date, other work is scheduled around this - the knock on effect can then be managed etc etc. This affects the engineering branch aswell as the flying branch blah blah.........
So, why give a delivery date if it is not valid - you only **** off your customers more.
It would be a nice gesture if extra 'manual' effort was made by the suppliers, rather than blaming this ****ing computer system.

Oh, and yet another delivery date slips by..................

[What Red Line?]

You been AOG for 4 months for an N1 gage?

What P/N are you after - we may be able to help. You can also go direct to the gage manufacturer too.

[HeliEng]

EESDL,

Have you got a part number for the part that you are AOG for?

[EESDL]

Getting a list from our stores man - but they've assured me that they've exhausted suppliers.

Two tail rotor sleeves/cusps were delivered and promptly shrivelled up on use!!!!

Trouble with getting spares from distant shores is the problem of getting suitable EASA paperwork.
Company has identical parts that they can put on an 'N' but can't put on a 'G' plate.
effing ridiculous

[Bearintheair]

Wot.......still no comment from PANnews ????

[widgeon]

Jaa form 1 and 8130 contain all the same info don't they ? Is issue of JAA form 1 restricted to the OEM ?.

[PANews]

Nope.

Busy time at the turn of the month [do you go writing on Pprune when you are flying?] and besides I have not researched the subject. Watching though.

As ever, if I know nuttin...

Its wise to say nuttin....

Still busy anyway. One down another to go.

Night night.

[EESDL]

.......they were meant to be delivered to Italy!!!!

You can't make this sort of farce up, believe me!!!!!!!!

[Notar fan]

As ever, if I know nuttin... Its wise to say nuttin....

That philosophy never stops you commenting on matters at MD. I find it amazing that you know it all when it comes to a manufacturer 5000 miles away, yet are seemingly in the dark when you are expected to comment on a manufacturer (your Kronies) in your own back yard.

I'll have to call a big BS on this one:yuk:

[PANews]

Welcome back Notar fan.

Sorry for the delay I have been up North for three days on family business.

It is quite simple. I just have nothing sensible to contribute. The subject requires a fair bit of research and I simply do not have the 'instant' time available just now. On the face of it I guess that those with first hand knowledge are contributing what appears to be sensible comment... and a bit of biased as well no doubt ... but there is absolutely no point in me going off half cock and writing what I know to be rubbish [as opposed to what you think is rubbish!]. Where would I start?

I guess the question I need to answer is why do manufacturers [in this case EC] fail to supply some spares on demand? As I do not have a helicopter, have never had a helicopter, never built a helicopter, never supplied spares for a helicopter - let alone an EC - that may take some time!

As you may recall I think I was criticised a few months ago for sitting back, researching and assessing before posting. The process itself took a couple of months but I was happy to write on the result of my beliefs at the time I posted. It may have been disliked [by you and yours] but no-one actually demolished the basic post I injected into the thread in reply to a posted question because I happened to have the material to hand.

Which takes us back to the attack on Eurocopter. I have no set opinion and certainly no data so until I do I will refrain from even openly asking the questions relating to the original post that have formed in my mind - until such time as I feel I am ready and able to 'play'. At current availability of my spare time.... how does January 2007 suit?

P.S. Sorry to be a bit dozy on this .... another potential 'out' for me on this thread might well be that this is not obviously a stated airborne emergency services problem?
Or is it?
I do not know who the operator is or where they are at?
Do you?

[Nev Bartos]

I am lead to believe that AOG is an acronym for "All Orders Goofed".



NB

[mikelimapapa]

What does AOG stand for? From what Ive been reading aircraft on ground seems to make sense, but being a newbie I have no idea.

[HeliEng]

mikelimapapa,

Spot on!

[EESDL]

Or in Beurocopters case:
"Aaaahhhhhhhhhh........Ooooooooooooohhhhhh...............Grrr rrrrrrrrrrr!!!"