Air Transat - Hey pass that thing man!

[747FOCAL]

Now for the Air Transat A330 dead stick landing. It's a long story, and I
don't have all the facts, however:

1. The aircraft had undergone an engine change just a few days before,
and there is mounting evidence that an important modification was not done to
a fuel line on the replacement engine, and also there was disagreement
within the maintenance organization about whether to let the aircraft go as is. Sure
enough, the fuel line failed over the Atlantic, resulting in an engine
shutdown and a major fuel leak.
2. At this point, the flight crew apparently performed a number of
actions within a short period: they attempted to relight the failed engine, began
diversion to the closest airport, and attempted to deal with the fuel leak
and fuel imbalance situation. It appears the crew did not properly handle the
fuel problem, and while attempting to transfer fuel manually from the tail fuel
tank (which is normally controlled automatically), they mistakenly activated
the fuel dump system, which put them into deep do-do.
3. Fortunately for everyone, the pilots were Canadians, so dead stick
landing a wide body was second nature! Indeed, the Quebec Government conferred a
special heroism award on the Quebecois Captain - unfortunately the award
was tarnished a little bit after it was revealed that he had spent two years
in jail in Georgia about 20 years ago for running marijuana in his light
aircraft.

4. Transport Canada (the Canadian version of the FAA) doesn't get off
scott free either. It appears that they failed to properly examine Air
Transat`s A330 ETOPS maintenance and flight operations procedures before granting
them an unrestricted Trans-Atlantic license. That license has since been
withdrawn and several restrictions have been imposed on Air Transat.
Too bad all this happened to Air Transat, because they have had a good
safety record and good reputation up to now.
:D

[ELAC]

Indeed my gossipy friend it would appear that you are in possesion of few if any of the facts given that most of what you've posted here is in contradiction with what is known so far about this incident.

Better to save that precious oxygen than further deprive your brain don't you think?

[big pistons forever]

The definition of stress. Do I respond to a post that has nothing new to add, is filled with half truths, presents ill informed speculation ,and appears to be deliberatly provocative yet has no redeeming value. Maybe I should just ignore the ignorant pratt that by mindlessly reducing the pofessional tone of this interesting and informative forum is getting his jollies?
:mad: I guess I just made my decision...

[jetboy]

ELAC is right. Nothing has come out about an accidental jettison of fuel. That's an extremely unlikely scenario. My theory goes like this. Line chafing caused a fuel leak on the engine. The engine keeps running 'coz the boost pumps are supplying adequate pressure to feed the stove at CRZ thrust as well as feed the leak. It's dark outside, so the pax don't see the fuel vapours. First thing to get noticed is an ECAM advisory for fuel imbalance as that tank gets light. Crew get out the Fuel Imbalance checklist. Although the checklist provides a caution that balancing is not to be performed if a fuel leak is suspected, the crew, unsuspecting, carry on and open the crossfeed and turn off the boost pumps on the light (leaking) side. Tank redundancy is lost and all the fuel can now go overboard. Unfortunately, ECAM (nor the FM)don't warn the crew of a leak. That has to be noticed by the crew during their fuel monitoring process (amount at start of trip minus amount burnt by engines should equal what's left). The FUEL LEAK (paper) checklist is quite specific about keeping the crossfeed closed to prevent a leak from affecting both sides. It's very likely that the crew never got to that checklist, as the engine flamed out, probably due to a reduction in fuel pressure due to the crossfeeding or worsening of the leak. The ECAM ENG FAIL warning would definately have diverted the crew's attention away from the fact that they were still crossfeeding fuel from the good side to the leaking side. After unsuccessfully trying to relight the engine, they descended and planned for a diversion to the Azores, probably still quite a distance away. With the engine shutdown, the leak is no longer an issue. The crew may have figured out by now that the fuel situation was critical and perhaps had closed the crossfeed, but too late. The next realization that all was not well would have been the first ECAM WING TK LO LVL message. Then the other one. Then silence. Sound plausible? All will be revealed by the DFDR, QAR and CVR in due time.

[Techman]

Well Jetboy, a modern airliner losing all of its fuel due to a leak, is also an extemely unlikely scenario, probably more so than fuel mismanagement in the cockpit.

Lets just wait for the final report, before we call the crew heroes or villains.

[innuendo]

Gents,
The aircraft in question was not equipped with a fuel jettizon system

[jetboy]

Wasn't it a 330-200?

[AirbusPilot]

Correct, it was an A330-200 :rolleyes:

Regards
Pedro
------
Terrain Terrain
Pull Up Pull UP

[Ernesto]

Did I see somewhere that "the cabin crew were shouting at the pax because the PA was not working" ? This was meant to be a response to the accusations that the cabin crew "panicked".
If this is correct, why did they not use the megaphones ?

[Tan]

Hey Folks all the speculation, is just that, someone's personal speculation...

I would think before speculation starts about the fuel dump system, wouldn't it be prudent to find out first if the a/c was so equipped? The a/c series is not necessarily going to give you that information. Airlines order different options because of their route structure and money.

And that what's this is all about, shift the blame, so you don't become responsible for the liabilities ....

Pretty sad...

IMHO the pilot's did an awesome job, regardless of the circumstances.

[Squawk 8888]

Too bad all this happened to Air Transat, because they have had a good safety record and good reputation up to now.That statement is only half right. Their safety record is good but their customer service is well know for being quite abysmal, which is why CMM grew so quickly.

MOF all of the discount carriers in Canada have excellent safety records- it would seem that none of them want to go the way of Worldways, which went out of business not long after a DC8 crashed.

[The Guvnor]

Squawk 888 - that wasn't Worldways that crashed the DC8 in Saudi - it was Nationair, who had rather "interesting" maintenance and management practices. Curiously, a large number of Nationair people were/are involved with Air Transat...

[upperecam]

Is there anyone else out there as sick of Neil Robertson's comments, aka "The Guvnor" (The Guvnor? please) as I am?

[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: upperecam ]

[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: upperecam ]

[brokepilot]

Hey Guv I have a question?
I'm on a layover and I'm going out for a beer. should I use a beer mug or drink from the bottle??
Thanks. :confused:

[The Guvnor]

This is the seventh fine that Air Transat have had levied against them this year...

For release September 6, 2001

TRANSPORT MINISTER ANNOUNCES FINES AND NEW OPERATING RESTRICTIONS FOR AIR TRANSAT

OTTAWA - Transport Minister David Collenette today announced that, pursuant to the provisions of the Aeronautics Act, Transport Canada has fined Air Transat $250,000 stemming from maintenance infractions related to the Air Transat aircraft involved in the August 24, 2001, emergency landing in the Azores. The infractions resulted from the
release of the aircraft back into service without having the maintenance completed in accordance with required procedures.

As part of its ongoing review and monitoring of Air Transat's operations, Transport Canada also announced that, as a precautionary measure, it is limiting Air Transat's Extended Range Twin Engine Operations for all aircraft, effective immediately. The new limits require all Air Transat twin engine aircraft to remain within a maximum of 90 minutes of suitable en-route airports between the point of departure and the destination - the limit normally granted to entry-level air operators. Affected aircraft in the Air Transat fleet now include Airbus A310s and Boeing 757s.

This latest measure does not alter the current limits placed on Air Transat's Airbus A330 aircraft which require them to remain within 60 minutes of suitable airports until refresher training sessions on extended range operations are completed. Once training is completed, the airline's Airbus A330 aircraft will also be moved to the 90-minute limit.

"Transport Canada is committed to taking whatever action is required to protect the Canadian travelling public," said Mr. Collenette. "While we are satisfied with the measures taken to date by the company in response to the occurrence in the Azores, and with the preliminary information coming from Transport Canada's safety audit, we believe it is appropriate to place these limitations on Air Transat while we continue to monitor its operations."

Transport Canada continues to support the investigation underway by the Portuguese authority into the contributing factors and causes of the occurrence and will respond to its findings as required.

The Minister will be available to the media at 2:30 p.m. today at the Ministers' Regional Office, 95 Wellington Street West, Suite 1702, Toronto, Ontario.

[Al Weaver]

I'm getting confused with all these posts. On one side we seem to have wild speculation about what could have happened and on the other side we have many people saying shut up and wait for the final report. Is there no middle ground?

Certainly from the actions of Transport Canada in restricting the certificate holder and requiring special training, there is reason to suspect that the likely causal factors included much more than a simple mechanical fuel leak. I would think that the pilot members among the posters should have knowledge of procedures that would/should have caught any fuel leak before it led to flame out of even a single engine, let alone all engines. If this is not the case and that most pilots would have not prevented the flameout than indeed the passengers are extremely lucky to have flown with the rare hero pilot that could save a plane with no power from 100 miles out or so. This is not very comforting to me since I am well aware of other incidents of massive and minor fuel leaks that seriously depleted fuel tanks before being discovered.

So what comforting action should we expect while flying anybody's aircraft today, while still awaiting a final report to be issued by CTSB sometime a year or so from now? Should we hope that all our pilots are heros or are there other lessons learned here?
:confused:

[Ontheairwaves]

747FOCAL
where do you get your info from????
If the report is not out then don't comment
Save your brain power if you have any :mad: :mad: :cool:

[Squawk 8888]

Guv

That crash in Saudi- the name I saw everywhere was Worldways, the A/C was a charter for a Nigerian carrier. The cause was pinned on a maintenance contractor in the middle east who fudged the paperwork in order to let the plane go with an underinflated tire.

The investigation of that crash was an amazing bit of detective work by the TSB- they managed to recover the paperwork from the remains of an A/C that caught fire just after takeoff and crashed with a full load of fuel, then find the tire pressure readings and determine the original reading had been erased and overwritten. Hats off to them I say.

[Bearcat]

Listen out guys, there is no such thing as a fuel jettison system on a 330. YOU CAN'T DUMP FUEL...you just land overweight and dont thump it in!

[The Guvnor]

Squawk 8888 - You're right, the aircraft (C-GMXQ) was indeed on lease to Nigeria Airways but it was a Nationair aircraft. The accident report can be found here: C-GMXQ Report (http://aviation-safety.net/database/1991/910711-0.htm) - the Nationair Project Manager, Mike Sparks was a good buddy of mine who had formerly been the Chief Pilot of Holidair.

[Tan]

THE FOLLOWING SEQUENCE OF EVENTS HAS BEEN REPORTED TO AIRBUS.
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE FOLLOWING MUST BE CONSIDERED AS PRELIMINARY
INFORMATION, WHICH MAY BE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AS ADDITIONAL FACTS
ARE IDENTIFIED BY THE OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION.
DURING A FLIGHT FROM TORONTO TO LISBON, THE A330-200 AIRCRAFT,
EQUIPPED WITH ROLLS-ROYCE TRENT 700 ENGINES, EXPERIENCED A
SIGNIFICANT IN-FLIGHT FUEL LEAK. THE AIRCRAFT DIVERTED TO
TERCEIRA IN THE AZORES.
DURING THE DIVERSION, BOTH ENGINES STOPPED OPERATING DUE TO FUEL
STARVATION.
THE RAM AIR TURBINE (RAT) DEPLOYED, AND THE FLIGHT CONTINUED
UNPOWERED FOR A PERIOD REPORTED TO BE AROUND EIGHTEEN MINUTES.
THE AIRCRAFT LANDED IN TERCEIRA, AND STOPPED APPROXIMATELY
THREE-QUARTERS OF THE WAY ALONG THE RUNWAY, WITH ALL TYRES AND
WHEELS SEVERELY DAMAGED.
EMERGENCY EVACUATION WAS INITIATED. SEVEN OF THE EIGHT ESCAPE
SLIDES DEPLOYED. EVACUATION THROUGH DOOR 3 LEFT WAS NOT POSSIBLE
FOR A REASON STILL TO BE INVESTIGATED. UNCONFIRMED REPORTS
MENTIONED SOME MINOR INJURIES.
ON-AIRCRAFT INVESTIGATIVE WORK COULD START ONLY AFTER THE
RECOVERY OPERATION WAS COMPLETED. THIS WAS DONE ON MONDAY 27
AUGUST.
3. INVESTIGATION STATUS
THE INVESTIGATION INTO THIS EVENT IS LED BY THE PORTUGUESE
AUTHORITIES WITH FULL AND ACTIVE PARTICIPATION OF THE CANADIAN
AND FRENCH AUTHORITIES. AIRBUS, ROLLS-ROYCE AND THE AIRLINE
TECHNICAL EXPERTS ARE PROVIDING ADDITIONAL ASSISTANCE TO THE
INVESTIGATING TEAM.
INITIAL INSPECTION OF THE AIRCRAFT HAS CONFIRMED SIGNS OF A FUEL
LEAK FROM THE RIGHT ENGINE. THE SOURCE OF THIS LEAK IS A DAMAGED
FUEL FEED PIPE (ROLLS-ROYCE TRENT 700 ENGINE IPC 73-11-47 FIG.
05 ITEM 50) INSTALLED ON THE ENGINE, DOWNSTREAM OF THE LP SHUT-
OFF VALVE. THE DAMAGE IS DUE TO INTERFERENCE WITH A HYDRAULIC
PIPE, IN THE VICINITY OF THE HP FUEL PUMP INLET. THESE PIPES ARE
MODIFIED AS PART OF ROLLS-ROYCE SERVICE BULLETIN (SB) RB211-29-
C625, AND COMPLETE APPLICATION OF THE SERVICE BULLETIN ENSURES
ADEQUATE CLEARANCE BETWEEN THE PIPES. THE SERVICE BULLETIN
APPEARS TO BE PARTIALLY APPLIED ON THE AFFECTED ENGINE.
THE LEFT ENGINE HAS BEEN INSPECTED, AND NO SIMILAR INTERFERENCE
EXISTS.
BECAUSE OF THE FINDING ON THE RIGHT ENGINE, INSPECTION OF SOME
OR ALL A330 AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH ROLLS-ROYCE TRENT ENGINES
WILL BE REQUIRED. DETAILS OF THIS INSPECTION WILL BE
COMMUNICATED WITHIN THE NEXT 24 HOURS TO ALL OPERATORS OF A330
AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH ROLLS-ROYCE ENGINES. IT IS ANTICIPATED
THAT THIS INSPECTION WILL BE RENDERED MANDATORY BY THE
AUTHORITIES.
NOTE THAT THIS INSPECTION IS DEFINED AS AN INITIAL PRECAUTIONARY
MEASURE PENDING FURTHER DETAILED INVESTIGATION.
THE DIGITAL FLIGHT DATA RECORDER (DFDR) AND COCKPIT VOICE
RECORDER (CVR) WILL BE DECODED BY THE INVESTIGATION TEAM.
ANALYSIS OF THESE RECORDERS SHOULD PROVIDE THE INVESTIGATORS
WITH ADDITIONAL FACTS REGARDING THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS DURING
THE FLIGHT.


For the members of the forum who have never seen a fuel line on a modern jetliner...it's much bigger then you think...The fuel in the short section between the fuel shut off valves can run an engine for about one minute, it takes a big line to do that.

[jetboy]

Tan, Fuel Jettison systems are not considered optional equipment on big airliners. I coulda swore that the 330-200 had a center tank and a jettison system like it's big sister the 340. The -300 definately does not have either. Anybody confirm this?

[Dockjock]

According to the September 5 issue of the National Post both the FDR and CVR lost power when the second engine quit...FYI.

Also, the cabin crew were apparently yelling (not panicking) due to the PA system losing power as well when the second engine quit.

[JetMender]

Some A330-200s have fuel jettison, others do not.

[Hot Rod]

Fuel dump IS OPTIONAL on the A330. The -200 has a center tank but fuel dump is still OPTIONAL.

Question: Does anyone KNOW of any A330 equipped with fuel dump?

[Tan]

Well Folks, that's the problem with speculation. None of us, including myself, really know if this particular a/c was even equipped with a fuel dump system. There are so many possible scenarios, perhaps the a/c was a special order, second hand, or leased, etc..... None of us know for sure...

The point is, we are all speculating whether the a/c was even equipped with a fuel dump system or even if it could be....So how could any of us really know happened.

I wouldn't be surprised if the flight crew, in their personal quiet moments, are not reappraising what they think happened.

I suspect that we are all speculating so that if it ever happens to us, we may have a "heads up" on it...The down side is that the speculation could be wrong. :)

[Fluke]

Hot Rod

Emirates flies A330-200's, Trent 700 RR engines, with the optional
fuel jettison system installed. I understand this is required not so
much to protect against overweight landings ( it is certified to do so
up its MTOW 230t), but to respect obstacle clearance in the case of a
single engine missed approach at certain high elevation airports at high
landing weights.
The certified approach climb gradient, single engine for the A330 is 2.1%.
The normal go around flap setting of Config 3 will not always allow for the minimum
climb gradient to be met. This can be solved by increasing the approach speed
to match Config 3, (lose an eng.) and climb away with Config 1+ F. Unfortunately
the regulations do not take account of the time/distance required to accelerate to
the higher speed. Thus an option for fuel jettison !

[aeroguru]

Brokepilot, very interesting quandry you are facing there!(more so than the other crap on this thread).
I suppose it comes down to your preference for draught or bottled beer and your faith in the cleanliness of the mug and bottle washer.
As for the Air Transat business re maint practices/engine change/ incomplete SB's /incorrect parts used I guess we should wait for the factual report.

[delarocha]

Dear forum readers

According to the preliminary investigation the damaged engine Low pressure fuel pipe had a crack 7.5 cm x 2~4 mm leading to a loss of 12 tons in 20 min.
see (newspaper article in portuguese) http://semanal.expresso.pt/pais/artigos/interior.asp?edicao=1505&id_artigo=ES35530

Just for curiosity I've done some elementary Fluid Mechanics calculations, assuming
- Fuel pressure(Upstream of Engine Fuel Pump)=20Psi
- Crack dimensions 7.5cm x 4mm
- Fuel density=0.785
I reached a estimated value of 16tons/h leak.
In the actual conditions due to vibration and pipe expansion under pressure, I believe the leak could reach the reported 12 tons in 20min.
Regards

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: delarocha ]

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: delarocha ]

[stagger]

There are some good graphics at the site that delarocha provided a link to. I think they're worth posting here...

http://semanal.expresso.pt/imagens/ed1505/fotos/grande/F4-p121.jpg

http://semanal.expresso.pt/imagens/ed1505/fotos/grande/F5-p121.jpg

http://semanal.expresso.pt/imagens/ed1505/fotos/grande/F6-p121.jpg

[Oilhead]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Transat hit with fine, lawsuit

Friday, September 7, 2001
By PAUL KORING
With a report from Tim Cook

Air Transat had its wings clipped yesterday when it was slapped with a $250,000 fine for shoddy maintenance and ordered to route its twin-engined jet aircraft closer to land. At the same time, Transport Minister David Collenette said the airline was safe to fly.

Meanwhile, passengers who had been terrified during an emergency, no-engines descent and landing two weeks ago filed a lawsuit claiming more than $50-million against the Montreal-based charter airline. The Air Transat Airbus A330 ran out of fuel in the mid-Atlantic on an overnight flight from Toronto to Lisbon on Aug. 24. The suit is on behalf of three passengers. Others among the 291 passengers, including 10 who suffered minor injuries escaping from the aircraft after it landed in the Azores, are expected to join the action.

Antonio Azevedo, one of the lawyers involved in the class action, said he has been retained by "numerous" passengers and families of passengers who were on the flight. He did not want to give a specific number.

"The more information that comes out, the more I'm coming to the belief that this plane should never have left the ground," Mr. Azevedo said. "It's hard for us to understand the severity of the impact this would have on people. These people are traumatized."

Mr. Azevedo said the suit is being launched because the families feel they should be financially compensated for their trauma and so nothing like this will ever happen again.

Air Transat would not comment on the suit.

After the fine and flight limitations were announced, Air Transat president and chief operating officer Denis Jacob said, "We fully accept and understand the significant fine and precautionary measures.

"The safety and security of our passengers remains our top priority," he said.
Mr. Jacob added that Air Transat had lost only a small number of reservations after the near disaster.

At a news conference to announce the punitive and precautionary measures, Mr. Collenette assured Canadians that "they should feel safe flying Air Transat," or any other Canadian airline.

"A mistake has happened, the company has admitted the mistake and the company is paying the price," Mr. Collenette said.

Further action against Air Transat may be forthcoming.

Yesterday's fine related only to the maintenance errors that resulted in the improper installation of an engine on the plane. The Portuguese-led investigation is looking into whether the pilots of that plane, Flight 236, may have pumped large amounts of fuel from the undamaged left-wing tanks to the right-side engine where it poured overboard from a ruptured fuel line.

Transport Canada has ordered Air Transat pilots to attend remedial fuel management sessions and take refresher training on long-distance, over-water flight operations.

Although the fine is the largest in Canadian aviation history, if the airline paid for it by passing the cost on to passengers, it would add less than eight cents to the price of each ticket sold by Air Transat in a year.

In addition, the over-water restriction should have relatively little impact on Air Transat. Although very long over-water legs, such as the Toronto-Lisbon run, will require more northerly routings that keep twin-engined aircraft within 90-minutes flying time of airports in Greenland and Iceland (the model of aircraft involved in the incident is limited to 60 minutes), most of Air Transat's summer season of flying to Europe is over.

In the winter, the charter carrier shifts almost all its flights to sun destinations.

For instance, this week, Air Transat has 142 transatlantic flights. By the first week of November it will have only four.

Despite Mr. Collenette's assertions that Transport Canada runs the world's tightest regulatory oversight of airlines, the only two large, modern aircraft to run out of fuel on regular flights -- turning them into massive, unwieldy gliders full of frightened passengers -- were Canadian. In 1983, an Air Canada Boeing 767 ran out of fuel and the pilot -- who had extensive glider experience -- made an emergency "dead-stick" landing at a former military airfield in Gimli, Man. Ever since, the incident has been known as the Gimli Glider.

Flight 236 was even luckier. Both its Rolls-Royce engines quit from fuel starvation after Captain Robert Piche -- belatedly realizing that he had a massive fuel leak -- had already diverted to the Azores, the only specks of land for more than 1,600 kilometres. He had steered toward the Azores because of concern over the fuel supply.

Flight 236 was the first transatlantic airliner to run out of fuel over the Atlantic since jets replaced propeller-driven planes on long-haul routes. It was also the first time any airline holding a special long-range operating licence for twin-engined jet flights over water has lost both engines for any reason.

Art LaFlamme, Transport Canada's director-general for civil aviation, said the unprecedented fine was imposed because Air Transat had flown the improperly maintained Airbus A330 on 13 flights over four days before it headed on the Lisbon trip.

Although a routine weekly check of the aircraft was conducted on Aug. 21 -- two days after the repair and two days before the near disaster -- the installation of the right-side engine was not checked despite a service bulletin from Rolls-Royce warning that improper installation could result in insufficient clearances between the fuel line and other parts.

[Tan]

Hey delarocha

Good link that you posted. My Portuguese is very bad, but the article shows the a/c high and fast turning final, which is what you would have expected to happen and hoped happened. Much better then low and slow.

Might I add because of the forward velocity of the a/c the actual leak would have probably occurred at a much faster rate. Why I say this, is because I have been involved in fuel dumps, and the rate was always greater then what the manufacture said. I realize that we are not talking about a fuel dump, but I always remembered that a higher loss rate could always be expected and to monitor the rate carefully in actual coditions. Funny thing, no one ever told us about this...

The information exchange on the internet has to be a positive thing for aviation... :) :)

[Ex NAV]

Remember Nationair // it came away after the disaster in Jeddah with a slapped wrist from Transport Canada - since Air Transat is a Quebec based company will the same happen or have times changed in Canada?? :mad:

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Ex NAV ]

[Tan]

Well Ex NAV

Lets hope that's not the case, all of us know, theirs too much politics in aviation...

[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Tan ]

[GlueBall]

C-GITS (-200) is a six tanker:
Left & Right inner wing tanks with 11,095 USG each; Left & Right outer wing tanks with 964 USG each; One 10,979 USG center tank, and one horizontal tail trim tank with 1,646 USG, for a total of....36,743 USG.
Rwy 33 at Lajes is 10,865 X 300-ft. :cool:

[Paterbrat]

And in come the lawyers. In these increasingly litigeous times as usual there has to be blame, lots of blame backed up by big demands for cash and lots of that. What a sad state of affairs when everything nowadays is accompanied by the demand for blame and compensation. Theres no such thing as an accident or 'God' will' there's only the bleating cries of 'my severe trauma' I will never ever be able to live a normal life again and the *****000000$'s will never fully compensate me for the agonies I went through before the plane touched down and I was able to walk away alive. Hasn't is really all got a tad out of hand? It was an emergency that had a pretty good ending. Lessons will be learned and hopefully the skies will be a little safer in the meantime lets all be very pleased that the final outcome was so good, after a bit of a fumble in a tight situation a darned good recovery with a deadstick landing in a pretty big glider. Nice work i'd say. Beers all round, mug or bottle your choice

[Tan]

Hear, Hear....

[Notso Fantastic]

Upperecam and others, stop this discussion!. Why don't we just let the Guvnor pontificate (like he does with everything else in aviation and pass his opinions on everything, and just accept that? Just think of the poor pprune server- 2700+ posts from one over opinionated, self important individual is just not fair. And who is this 'expert of the airwaves'? Read about this sad person who seemingly doesn't have a private life! http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html

[Tan]

Gee "Notso Fantastic", it sure sounds like you're not having a good day.

Why don't you have a pint or two, lighten up, and enjoy life...
:)

[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Tan ]

[The Guvnor]

Notso Fantastic, dear boy, please - do us all a favour and just foxtrot oscar will you? Most people would have got the message by now but it seems that your skin is thicker (or intelligence lower) than the average bear...

My contribution to this particular thread so far was to correct an erroneous perception about Worldways vs Nationair - something which if you knew the slightest thing about Canadian aviation is actually really rather relevant; and to post a press release about the incident and further ETOPS restrictions from the Canadian MOT. Again, rather relevant to the thread.

Now, kindly stop trying to 7500 threads because of your immature attitude. If you have something relevant to post; fine. If not - AMF!. :mad: :rolleyes: :mad:

[Notso Fantastic]

We must have a Forum Barbeque when you pass the magic 3000 posts, and some sort of presentation (hopefully of your own server and website- long overdue). You cannot take the message that your over opinionated pontifications are going too far- keep your anti Americanisms and profanity to yourself! Not everybody wants to read your opinion on everything in aviation every day. Try going out with girls and switch that darn computer off!

[Few Cloudy]

Not So Fantastic,

Thanks for your useful thoughts on this Airbus incident. Always nice to read a logical follow up....

[Amos]

Look!...let's face facts...
The skipper will get the VC for the dead stick landing and...
The DCM for running out of fuel!

[Scud Runner]

My two cents worth:

1) Why use a glass, when the beer comes in its' own? :D

2) The cabin crew screaming at the pax? They were simply them doing their "shouted commands" after the brace signal came from the flight deck (You know, "put your head between your knees and kiss your arse goodbye!").

3) As for the rest, let's wait for the real facts and knock off the needless speculation. Yes, there's alot more to be known (where'd the fuel go?), but until we know what the investigators have determined from the recorders before they lost power (now there's a worthwhile discussion!), we can't possibly know what these pilots were up to.

Cheers, Scud

[JB007]

The very brief report i've seen is that as the aircraft became unbalanced due to the fuel leak, the systems on the A330 pumped fuel from the tank without the leak to the tank with the leak to bring the aircraft back into balance - in short, the aircraft pumped itself dry!

I am amazed these guys got away with this, 8 tyres out of 10 burst on landing!! With the exception of the Azores, they were 1600km away from the nearest land...incredible story!

[747FOCAL]

For anybody who doubted the accuracy of my original post let me remind you to look at my profile and logically deduce where I work and why I would know this info before most others. Regardless of what happened he got the bird back safe with all the self loading cargo intact. Why did they deploy the slides if they knew they were out of fuel?

[Squawk 8888]

Why did they deploy the slides if they knew they were out of fuel?Just a shot in the dark here, but (a) they had know way of knowing whether the tires had stopped burning, (b) fuel isn't the only flammable substance on an aircraft and (c) anybody who's made it past the third class in PPL ground school knows there's a big difference between "no usable fuel" and "not a trace of fuel anywhere".

[SK]

"Pilot Who Saved 304 People Now Finds Heroism Tainted
The story of how a Canadian jet crossing the Atlantic survived disaster has changed into a tangle of missteps."

Here is the story from the NY Times, as reported by yahoo:
http://dai lynews.yahoo.com/h/nyt/20010910/ts/pilot_who_saved_304_people_now_finds_heroism_tainted_1.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nyt/20010910/ts/pilot_who_saved_304_people_now_finds_heroism_tainted_1.html)

[ 11 September 2001: Message edited by: SK ]

[Lawn Dart]

A little light humour

The Airline Website (http://www.aeforum.net/cgi-bin/forum/index.pl?read=4106)
:)

[The Guvnor]

http://www.torontostar.ca/images/Corrigan0909.jpg

[Wolfman]

Question:
Would the pilots have had any other indication of a fuel leak considering the location of the leak?
Other than a fuel imbalance, would they have had a high fuel flow indication, partial power loss, or loss of fuel pressure on the bad side?

BTW, good joke! :p