Is this fair?

[Flyer14]

I guess this topic would irritate the new crew guys more than some of the older blokes. I ran into a bunch of those super pilot cadets the other day as they battled to pass their ATP subjects. It was shocking to learn how some of these 250 hour guys would be flying the Dash 8 within a few months, one of these guys was just under 20! All the while here I am with frozen ATP and and a multi rating and without a single job offer in 4 months of applying. Anyone see the lavish article about the cadets in the Dec 2005 African Pilot? Even got the guys entire speech printed.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Nope!

Nothing to be done about it so I guess those of us job hunting will just have to work that bit harder.

Them's the breaks...:{

[mini]

Sign of the times chaps, I had a "lucrative" number for many years until the beancounters got jealous & started hiring folks from the "developing world" then the job didn't get done and I and a few others got some clean up work, eventually standards dropped & clean up didn't matter... the paperwork was OK... sigh. :(

[MysticFlyer]

Yip, now they are going to ride high on this great Afrikaner SAS/R invention that was to protect jobs for the Afrikaners.

Methinks, why not run it into bankcruptcy first, remove all the previous advantaged reflectives (who must all be racist because they don't like crime and unsafe operations) and then start something all by themselves!

An All Black (EE) Airline - perhaps Bantu Air or with Zimbabwe - and call it BOB Air? Their pilots would then at least have work too, and the scraps for the swamp Kiwi's! Monkey see, monkey do.

Same with all the other symbols of the past. Eish man, now that is a stuggle!

[reptile]

It may not be fair in the sense that there are many, better qualified, pilots who cannot find an airline position. BUT - this practise is not confined to SA. Many Airlines - world wide - have cadet pilot programs - including the likes of BA.

The reason for having these programs differ from airline to airline (and country to country). In the case of SAA, it is to meet employment equity targets. These targets are not set by SAA, but by the government. Being a parastatel, SAA has no choice but to comply with these regulations. I'm am not going to debate whether Affirmative Action is fair - or for that matter the best solution - the fact is it is a government policy.

What we need to keep in mind is that although these cadet pilots are reaping the benefits, they were not the architects of the system. Cadet bashing is not going to change the facts.

Besides, I'm very sure that any young pilot -regardless of colour or creed - would grab the opportunity of a cadetship. The ones complaining are the ones who did not get the opportunity to join the cadet scheme. Fact is - there are white males in the program - they are just far and few between.

The system is certainly not fair (according to our traditional values) but it is certainly here to stay.

[mattman]

Sitting here in the middle of Africa the sound of monkeys everywhere and I wonder why sometimes.
What happened to the days were you had to earn your ride. The boy's from the SAAF did it and moved with great respect into the upper ranks of the flag carriers. I had based my morals of flying on exactly that principle, I work hard, prove I can and maybe will be hired by the top of the lot. But sadly today the old log book does not count for much. I am young and dumb but I have worked contract in alot of countries and had to endure hardship some of the so called cadets would consider as a capital crime. I love the flying and thats all that counts. So at the end of the day I would rather drive my Vaalie car to the sandy beeches then get on board a aircraft that I know whats going up in the front and fear for my family and myself.
True to word it's better to punch holes here at the bottom than to try and compete with the beast above. :(
Long live the contract pilot, guy's and girls your the best :ok:

[Coleman Myers]

We had this in the UK in the 90's. CAP509 I think the thing was called. There would be a bunch of "Neil Amstrong's" running about in uniforms with one bar on their shoulders looking like junior cabin crew, giving us all aloof upward glances in the coffee room between lectures ... then promptly failing their flight section of the course because they were completely physically unsuitable to fly aircraft, but would win Mastermind in a blink!!!.

I have seen it again with courier outfits, where 200 hour hangarsweeps get into Caravans, log time as multi-crew ops P1 and then present you with a glistening cv boasting a thousand hours in what is really a giant Cessna 150 !!!!!!!.

I am not against flight cadet programs nor do I wish anybody who gets a leg up early in their career any ill luck, but airlines and authorities should pay more attention to those guys who have done their time scaring the sh*t out of themselves operating old pistons into bush strips and who have done some "real flying" ....

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Not much chance of that happening. The contract/bush guys are regarded as cowboys by the heavies. :(

Got a serious uitkak to that effect at a job interview for a large, taxpayer funded airline.:rolleyes: Maybe the interviewer was just having a bad day and having to see a load of hopefuls can't be easy either.

Suppose we can't all have those good jobs reserved for the elite and their families.:{

[Shrike200]

Again, any interviewer who kaks someone out for having done too much contract flying has clearly never even been vaguely clued up enough to see what goes on out there. I would actually like to call them a complete imbecile, but I'll tone it down...

This idea that contract flying = bush flying is one held by clueless morons. Sure, there is bush flying out there, but it's not a case of one equals the other.

*Wanders off to have a drink to calm temper.....*

[Kopeloi]

Looks like you guys think that few years in the bush flying prepares you better that airline run cadet program for the life of airline pilot. I wonder?

[Shrike200]

No, thats not what I think. But contract flying is not bush flying, and it shouldn't rule you out of the running. Plus, having to handle yourself out there in difficult conditions, with no backup in many cases should be considered a plus point. I would have thought this was fairly clear.

Although now that you mention it, I've certainly seen contract guys handle situations more confidently and decisively than cadets.

[Kopeloi]

Most airlines are looking team players not survival experts. Maybe for certain reasons...

[Shrike200]

Ok, let me explain how things work on contract life. I am forced to assume you've never done it.

You live and work with the same bunch of people, sharing the household duties in many cases. Many contract companies specifically look for 'team players', guys with team orientated problem solving skills, since they will have less problems and more solutions from them when they're out there. If you're not a team player, and either don't do your share or have personality clashes with others while on tour, you cost the company money, or lose points with the clients. It's quite simple actually. I, and many others on contract have experienced problems caused by non team players whilst away on tour. In general however I'm still amazed at the quality of people this profession manages to attract. I believe that these people should be given the opportunities they not only deserve, but have accumulated highly appropriate skills for.

Oh, and survival experts?!?! We don't actually live IN the bush, and hunt for our meals - we actually stay in houses, have cooked food etc. It seems you've taken the term 'bush flying' a little too literally.

[Majutes]

You tell him Shrike. The funny thing is SAA sent its cadets out with Ross Air to gain experiance. Wonder what they were thinking at the time? Maybe us guys in the bush do pick up some good skills. Be careful of knocking some thing you don't understand. Look at it as you like the employment policey of SAA defies reason. We are in an industry where safety must come first so the best person must do the job, not the one who fits the P.C. profile best.

[Flyer14]

Well said Shrike200. From what I gleaned when I met these guys was that their training is no different from what a private guy at 43 or any other good school would get. Furthermore some of them were being sent to Solenta who do quite alot of contract work so I don't see the point that they are getting specific airline training as opposed to other contract pilots. I don't mean to bash the cadets, but I do feel that in the current situation of pilot supply exceeding demand that it's not the right time to run this program. Besides its not as if there are absolutely no female and non-white self-trained pilots. Yes I know nothings going to change, but this is my opinion. I do feel though that I appreciate the aviation career that I have embarked on far more than if someone else paid for it and then spoon fed me a job after that.

[Comical Ali]

Is there lot of foreign crews flying in SAA? Any openings for foreigners?
Ali

[Mungalui]

Shrike200; Majutes; Flyer14.
So bek moet jam kry! :ok: :ok:
Well said guys.Some of us have to start at the bottem and work our way up.

Nice one.

[togabutton]

Stop wasting your time and energy on these posts and put those problem solving, team building, survival etc. etc. skills that you have gained from contract flying/bush flying etc. to good use!

Its a cruel cruel tough world out there and you will know this if you live in SA (just barely) and work in ...take your pick; Angola, Sudan, Afghanistan/Paki, DRC and various other gems that call themselves democracies.

I was a contract pilot for almost 4 years. Before that I did my time as a jump pilot, fire spotter pilot etc in the singles.

I was not advantaged, nor was I black etc. Just someone who very badly wanted to end up in the driver's seat at the pointed end of a shiny big jet.

Very quickly learnt that the harping and whining doesn't help. Also had a f-ed up interview with the honourable national carrier and left shattered after being insulted by an oxygen thief who apparently must be able to walk on water- what a skygod!

Now I am laughing my head off because I am privileged to work for one of the worlds number one airlines. Its not perfect, but its WAAAAAAY WAAAAY better than the joke that I aspired to work for in my earlier days as a proud patriotic SA citizen. Sad that a once great enterprise has been all but destroyed - sympathies to the good people who remain there and were not the architects of current policy.

My advice. Forget about the losers in SA that are squeezing you out. They have made it clear that they don't want you. Don't waste your time. Clam up and start mailing those CVs/resumes etc. off at weekly intervals to foreign operators. Thats what I did. Worked for me. Persistence does pay off. There ARE so called CONTRACT PILOTS getting hired by the likes of GULF AIR and CATHAY. Just be sure when you get the call that you have honestly put in the prep for the interview.

By the way, best you enjoy those hours in the "BUSH" doing some real flying, because once you join an airline, the fun is over (at least from a flying point of view). You will find yourself longing for the rush of that approach into Faizabad between the mountains, BUT not the cold river water shower in Haumbo, nor the Typhoid in Burundi!

Ok, I am off my soap box now! Apologies to anyone I offend.;)

[nugpot]

Unfortunately guys and gals, you have to play the cards that you are dealt.

Just for interest. I took a look at the SAX seniority list. Over the last year SAX employed 27 new FO's. 11 Cadets and 16 from the industry. Most of the 16 came from contract environment.

There are currently another +- 20 busy with the interview process. Most of those have had their interviews and psyco's delayed because they were on contract somewhere.

There have always been, and will always be people who get the shortcuts. It might be unfair to you, but it is life. Get your 2000 turbine multi-crew hours on contract and know that for some jobs you need more than cadets - which is the current situation at SAX. Chief pilot thinks at least 20 guys in 2006 to fly new a/c.

Good luck to you all.

Edited numbers.

[nyathi]

The sad thing is when us contract/charter pilots do eventually get excepted into an airline as a FO/ops or what ever position, we will have a captain that is 5 - maybe 10 years younger than us with maybe half the experience.......this makes me sick!!:mad:

Good luck for all of you!! F..kn cadets!

These cadets (some of them) sometimes do think the sun shines out their bums!! (just my thoughts)

[MysticFlyer]

Guys, have faith. The odds crumbs will fall from the table, because the cadets can not be strained fast enough for the demand which will follow, aiation is on the UP worldwide.

Now check for these symptoms on my postings on Richards Bay in the Campfire. Figure out what this has to do with jobs within the aviation segment in Southern Africa.

Keep faith!

[nugpot]

we will have a captain that is 5 - maybe 10 years younger than us with maybe half the experience.......

nyati

The minimum for command at most airlines is around 4000 hrs. Are you telling me you will only get into an airline when you have 8000 hrs?

We have just employed a 44 year old FO. He will be flying with captains in their early thirties. He is happy to have the job.

Its all in the attitude mate.

In any case, if you never want to fly with an ex-cadet as your captain - don't apply to SAA and you'll be safe.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Nugs

Where do we sign up?

[nyathi]

nugpot, I never said that I wont fly with a cadet, I suppose your right - it's more a attitude thing than anything else (attitude for both parties!)

Lets keep faith and hope for the best!

[nugpot]

Sorry Nyathi if I seemed critical - it was not the intention.

The cadets get a huge opportunity. One that all of us would have grabbed if we were in the same boat. But, they do have to work to make a success of it. SAX does not lower its standards to accommodate cadets. It is either shape up or ship out - and a few have been sent packing.

The cadets also have to take a lot of flak at work. Can you imagine the frustration of a captain who flies with a 3500hr FO the one day and a 350hr cadet the next. There is no substitute for experience. These cadets still have to gain theirs, but most/some realise their fortune and actually perform above expectation.

Currently the system counts against self-starters like yourself, but the wheel does turn and soon the airlines will be looking for experience in their FO pools so that they can groom their future captains. SAX has already started this process. The last cut-off for interviews was 2000hrs. With larger a/c arriving next year, a pool of senior FO's have to be available to crew these and to be ready to upgrade when required. Cadets will never be captains in SAX, and the airline will always need non-cadet FO's.

In short, the shotgun approach to CV distribution should be followed, frequently. Be a nuisance at the airlines you are interested in. In this industry, an oversupply of pilots turn into a shortage in an instant. Be ready.

And good luck. We all went through that long wait for the first airline job.

[Exhaust Manifold]

The cadets get a huge opportunity. One that all of us would have grabbed if we were in the same boat.
True, but alot of the cadets don't appreciate the position they're in. Heard of one complaining because he was stuck flying caravans while the others where on the dash 8/jetsream 41. I know many pilots who would give their left ball to get a job on a van (even to get a job at all:yuk: )

[MysticFlyer]

But that's normal too!

The SAAF guys always had the self-starters complaining too, and looking deeper into the case, personally, with an exception here and there, methinks a lot of ex-SAAF goes does the trumpet blowing. Granted.

The issue is, the civies/self-starters NEVER wanted, demanded the loops for them to be lowered!

Or am I missing the point here?! Again, there is no substitute for experience.

MF

[Exhaust Manifold]

Just saying that people who get these opportunities should appriciate it, because alot of people would kill to be in the same position.

Went to a meeting yesterday and had to spend half an hour listening to a SAA cadet bitch about why he has to go on contract.

Never ends does it:*

[Flyer14]

I'd pay someone if I could get some contract experience. Forget about these cadets pick us self trained guys.:rolleyes: