Linux at long last

[None of the above]

After a somewhat longer gestation period than I had anticipated, I have not only managed to install SuSe Linux 10.0 but also succeeded in connecting it to the internet!

Not being much of a techie, I didn't think I'd ever manage to successfully add a second hard drive and install Linux without deleting WinXP in the process, so for your next computing project give LInux a whirl. It's worth the effort.

[Mac the Knife]

I've just installed Ubuntu - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ - on a dopey old PII

Detected everything and installed without a murmur - the updated Gnome desktop (and I'm an old KDE fan) is really impressive. At last they've got the onscreen fonts nice. And even on a 233 processor and 128Mb it runs acceptably and usably - amazing! SuSE 9.2 was too slow to be much use on this antique (which normally works just as a print server).

We're revamping the computers in the practice and while we have to retain Windows on three PCs (the billing software is Windows only) the 4 PCs used by other staff will go over to Ubuntu Linux from 98SE.

Anmd what's more, we're standardising on OpenOffice 2 all round. Finally, the suite hits the sweet spot.

I dunno how much we're going to save, but I suspect that it'll be a lot. Less antivirus software for a start. If we were going with Vista/Longhorn we'd have had to buy 7 new PCs.

Oh yes, and there is the satisfaction of giving a bit less support to a convicted (and unrepentant) monopolist.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It's worth the effort. Er, how does that work out exactly? Precisely what does it give you that Windows doesn't, and how do you calculate that it was worth the effort (£/hour or whatever)?

[Engineer]

Precisely what does it give you May be the satisfaction of being able to do it :}

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Well, fair enough, installing Linux can be a bit of a challenge (unlike Windows: (1) put in CD (2) drink coffee whilst waiting (3) er, that's it).

[Spinflight]

Sounds a lot like installing Solaris too Gertrude.

Not sure wheher the current release includes OpenOffice 2.0 but I'm sure it will be included shortly.

Once you take away the potential hardware upgrade costs of moving PIIs to XP or later Longhorn, add the firewall, AV etc and figure in the greater stability of Unix then you could be set to save a lot of money.

[Cornish Jack]

Gertrude
Suggest you give it a try - Install Suse or whatever ... insert CD make similar inputs to Windoze and sit back and have a coffee. Dead simple, Oh and you get all those other things like graphics progs, and an MS Office equivalent etc. at the same time!
Cost?? about one tenth of the Redmond bloatware and no nonsense about hidden parts of the software, plus a higher degree of security from the script kiddies.
None so blind etc ;)

[VP959]

Hopefully you'll indulge a reasonably competent Windows person, but complete ignoramus WRT Linux.

I use an old 300Mhz or thereabouts AMD PC as a print server. It's on 24hrs a day, running XP (yes, I know that's daft and slow, but it happened to be convenient....).

I don't run anything else on it, except for a P2P file share programme from time to time (eDonkey, used to share legal stuff, I might add).

If I switched to Linux, could I still do what I currently do?

Do I need to buy things like new print drivers for the printer or does Linux support the Epson ones?

Does software written for Windows run under Linux?

Sorry if these questions are completely barking, but I've been curious about this for some time.

VP

[Spinflight]

Not too sure about the P2P Vp, though I'm quite sure there are Unix P2P clients out there.

Shouldn't have any problems whatsoever with the printer and there is software which allows you to run Windows apps under Unix (Wine? havn't used it or similar myself).

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Gertrude
Suggest you give it a tryI say again, what for?

It'll cost me:

(1) time
(2) hassle
(3) a non-zero risk of getting it wrong and screwing up my machine, resulting in my being unable to earn a living.

And what do I get for this that I haven't got already that's worth the cost and the risk?

(Wine? havn\'t used it or similar myself) I have. Didn\'t work in a simple straightforward scenario (I forget the details, something to do with the application relying on the ODBC system prompting the user for connection details).

[batninth]

Gertrude,

You ask interesting questions, the nature of which really answers them.

Do you want a simple, hassle-free (well as close to as possible) life with your computer. If so, then your "insert CD, drink coffee" installation philosophy would strongly suggest that you stick with Windows.

Is there any Linux version (and that's the first problem, the versions) that come close to this? Not really although I tried Ubuntu & it's pretty close, but I've still got to faff around to get it configured to play internet radio.

If you have a PC and you use it for serious work, and you don't want to have to take time out to install etc then stick as you are. You mention ODBC connections, and again I would suggest you stick to Windows for now.

If you are the sort of person who enjoys understanding what is going on beneath the covers, then Linux is good as it is more transparent so you can see how it does things.

It is true that the software capabilities on Linux are getting very good now - OpenOffice is probably at the same level of "bug-free-ness" as MS office (hmmm?) and there are several other packages out there that do as well. If I were a small business and I needed a stable desktop AND (this is the crucial bit) I had a good guy around who understood this stuff (or failing that the neighbours 9-year old) then Linux desktops in my business could save me from the relative expense of MS software, plus offer me more security and give me some added plus points.

There are benefits to be had in Open Source software, I publish documents in PDF and I can do a good job for very little cost in Linux whereas the MS Soluion costs me dearly, but that is pretty niche.

The bottom line here is that it is up to you - if you want the easy life and don't mind paying, stick to Windows. As an individual it's a cost-effective way to go.

If you're using several PCs, then the trade off between support cost and cost of software licencing can move very quickly in favour of Linux.

Having sat carefully on the fence in all of the above, for me it comes to one thing. Like you, Gertrude, how much time does it take from sticking in the CD to having to work something out that would be automatic with Microsoft, and at the moment I still have to take time out from real work to make Linux work. So I pays me money and gives Bill another fillip

[glyn thrash]

try linspire.. www.linspire.com

it's about the best linux for someone starting out.. i have used it for a while now and have downloaded just about every distro out there.. i still use linspire.. they also have the best support for any problems..
linux is great.. once you get use to it, you will never go back to MS. simple as that. i have MS XP pro setting right here beside me that i could install on the computer but i have no need to and no need for bugs, viruses, spyware, addware,etc,etc.. you just don't get that with linux.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The bottom line here is ...OK OK, let's be honest here. The bottom line is that I write software for a living, and that there are vastly more people willing to pay me vastly more money for writing Windows software than for writing Linux software.

Every now and then I do some Linux programming, but I insist that

(a) the Linux box has a network connection but no keyboard or screen

(b) I can use a decent text editor on Windows to do the actual work

(c) there's a BOFH ready to fix the Linux box for me each time it breaks (and on my current contract the Linux box on my desk breaks far more often than the Windows one - there's no way I'm letting Linux on any of my own machines unless I'm specifically paid to do so, in which case I'll buy a separate one for the purpose)

and most importantly of all

(d) if there's any suggestion that I might have to use vi I just walk, the client can look for someone else to do the job (this is a straightfoward quality-of-life issue, just like I refuse to work in London for example).

I find that if I explain this carefully and politely to the client we get along just fine :) :) :)

The XP machine is regularly infected with spyware and viruses (kids will be kids) That one's easy. I just tell them not to download and install viruses and spyware, like I don't. Once upon a time they used to disobey me, so each time they got infected with something it took me twice as long to "get round to" sorting their machine out, and in the meantime of course it had to stay switched off. Once it got up to a month with no computer they got the message and have refrained from screwing up their machines ever since.

[Mac the Knife]

Well Gertrude, you abviously have an excellent reason for sticking to (and recommending others to stick to) Windows and the Microsoft camp. Fair 'nuff, if I worked for Ford I'd also try and persuade everyone that Toyota was crap.

vi? Does anyone care what editor you write your code with? Why should they? There are dozens of excellent codesmiths editors for Linux and hardly anyone uses vi that I know.

If I insisted on writing Linux code on a networked Windows machine using a windows editor (so I couldn't debug the code if I wanted to) I'd sure get some funny looks (and no work).

"..there are vastly more people willing to pay me vastly more money for writing Windows software than for writing Linux software." Fair nuff' also - but good Linux coders are also in demend (and well paid) - not all Linux code is GPL and anyway, the GPL only applies if you release your apps, not if you use them in house.

Boxes breaking? Well I dunno, but it's hard to "break" Linux in a way that's not easily fixable and I can't say that about Windows. Be that as it may I haven't seen a kernel panic (or for that matter a Windows STOP message) for a very long time. Both are good stable OSes (there, I've said it).

"I just tell them not to download and install viruses and spyware, like I don't." Well, maybe that's one solution, but not in the real world. I run many layers of (expensive) protection on Windows (starting with a firewalled router), download and try a lot of stuff (not warez) and have yet to be caught. In Linux I really don't have to worry that much.

Horses for courses say I - that's the essence of freedom, you can use any OS you like and if Windows shakes your bucket then go for it. The sad thing is that MS (despite their recent protestations to the contrary) don't agree, and are gearing up for a final epic struggle to retain control of open formats. The fact is that if they were to start playing nice and join all the other kids in the sandpit they'd probably still continue to dominate the world's desktops - at 60% instead of 90% maybe, but that's still a LOT of bucks.

--------------------
"Bother," said Pooh as he struggled with /etc/sendmail.cf, "it never does quite what I want. I wish Christopher Robin was here."

[Spinflight]

Well Longhorn is a long way off and the 'just stop the kids from downloading crap' argument dosn't hold so I think we'll see a lot of people migrating in one form or another.

Doubt it'll be Linux in its various guises or Solaris that gets the increased market share, which I foresee as almost inevitable given the epidemic status of spyware and virusses (which I note is only likely to get worse). Linux is too fragmented in its champions, as shown by various threads on here, to bridge the acceptance gap.

Macs on the other hand are well placed and seem to have shifted their business model from hardware / software vendor to supplying services and cool stuff. At the end of the day this is what peeps want, hassle free computing and accepting small charges for copyrighted or exceptional material.

[VP959]

Thanks Spinflight, I might just give it a go over the Christmas break. That way I should have time to sort out the inevitable array of "unforeseen" problems that will inevitably arise!

VP

[Spinflight]

Shouldn't have any real problems for print spooling, P2P etc VP.

If you do just post them here and I'll see if I can help. :ok:

[tyro]

(d) if there's any suggestion that I might have to use vi I just walk

I don't care about the operating system, but if there's any suggestion that I can't use vi then I walk. Life's too short to try and work with editors that have an incomplete understanding of regular expressions.

[Spinflight]

There seems to be an impression, even amongst programmers it appears, that Unix is difficult because windows is supposedly easy. :rolleyes:

[pmills575]

tyro,

I'm with you.


Only a windoze fan could make such a statement!