Experience?

[fishboy]

I haven't been Using this Forum for very long, but have noticed a trend that extends throughout the whole of the flying industry.

Everyone seems to think that they can describe their job, as the hardest, lowest paid, thankless existence in the world that no one else can do. I know everyone wants to be a hero, and have the rest of the world look at them in awe, but please; flying helicopters is not that difficult. We've all been in scary situations, and maybe even feared for our lives now and then. Talk to anyone who has worked in construction, on the oil rigs, down a coal mine, or in the steel industry. I can assure you, their jobs are much more difficult, thankless and dangerous.

The first question that I posted here, was to do with the required training for a specific job. Basically a requirement for twin engine experience for the UK police ops. I wanted to know why the requirement was there. Nearly all the responses were from people doing that particular job; trying to validate the requirement, and explain why; with no twin experience, a pilot wouldn't be suitable for that type of work. Learning to fly a twin, is not that difficult. I don't want to get into the same discussion, I'm merely using that as an example to make my point.

Everyone wants to think that they can't be replaced. The fact is; none of us are irreplacable. In the short term, yes; but long term no. All of us will, in time, be replaced by younger less experienced guys with newer, more efficient techniques and ideas. That's just the way things work. I'm sure that all the older pilots reading this topic, can remember thinking that their older colleagues (some, not all) were stuck in their old ways, and never bothered to keep up with new and better technology/ideas.

Helicopters are new; they are constantly and quickly changing. New technology and materials have allowed a huge amount of change over the last 10-20 years and I'm sure that will continue.

Please; lets try to change that harmful attitude. Just because you were taught a specific way, does not mean that it's the only way. Just because you have more experience, it does not mean that you are always right; instructors and teachers have always learned from their students. Passing on the benefit of experience can be accomplished without condescenion, and the less experienced guys will listen more closely.

Happy New Year

[Fortyodd]

Fishboy,
I think you will find that the main driving factor behind the "Twin engine requirement" are the insurance companies covering the Police/Air Ambulance operations.

[Marco]

Fishboy

To add to what Fortyodd has to say. The experience level is also determined by the CAA in the form of the Police Air Operations Certificate. That gives several exemptions from the Air Navigation Order most notably from Rule 5. With the greatest respect to low time pilots they'll be unlikely to grant these if all the pilots have <500 hours.

[fishboy]

Like I said; I don't want to get into that same discussion about twin time.
The point is; don't underestimate pilots with less experience, and don't overestimate your own.
It's very difficult to quantify a persons experience.
For example: someone with say; 2000 hours.
They could have flown many different types of aircraft, in many different situations, for many different customers, all over the world. Another pilot, with an extra 2000 hours who has flown only 1 or 2 different types, doing charter work flying A to B.
Who has the most experience?
I'll say it again. It doesn't take long to learn to fly a new aircraft.

[212man]

This brings to mind a phrase used by the contributor known as RW-1; he refers to pilots as "rotor gods)".

I'd like to know how do I become one? Is it an hours thing? Do you have to have a certain look and demenour? Maybe Tom Cruise meets Malboro man? It would look good on cvs or application forms; Amex platinum card application form, "Occupation: rotor God", instant credit.

I wonder if there are apprentice levels? Perhaps you start as a 'rotor cherub', then progress to 'rotor Godette' to the pinnacle of achievement itself.

Anyway, I'll never be one but it's nice to see that some people seem to think they've reached those dizzy heights.

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Another day in paradise

[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 03 January 2001).]

[SPS]

Quote -
"Please; lets try to change that harmful attitude. Just because you were taught a specific way, does not mean that it's the only way. Just because you have more experience, it does not mean that you are always right; instructors and teachers have always learned from their students. Passing on the benefit of experience can be accomplished without condescenion, and the less experienced guys will listen more closely."

Just my view too. Well said.

It is good to be constantly reviewing your own knowledge.You must never think you know it all. You should never stop learning because you think you know it all. That stops you listening to anyone else's view.....And they might be right!

[RW-1]

212 ... The "Rotor Gods" are the spirits who watch over us all hehe .... I'm just a heli pilot, there's enough in that title to awe plankers and the non-flying public :)

I don't know about any harmful attitudes, I have not seen it in my experiences, but unfortunately IMO when most novice pilots ask about a certain type of flying, it is always something that will take time and experience to get to (Police/EMS/ENG). And learning that they will not just "Jump" into it, but have to slog along gathering time is what really places that feeling on you.

What time/experience that entails is more or less determined by insurance companies more than the industry, but the industry is there too.

No matter how good you believe you are or demonstrate how good you are, the powers that be determine it by hours and some qual's, such as PAO certif or having an ATP.

I agree with your statement, but haven't myself received an attitude from anyone yet.



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Marc

[HeloTeacher]

By the same token, not everyone is capable of doing the job. I have seen many pilots with far more "experience" who couldn't command their way out of a paper bag. You're right, they can fly the a/c, but they will never be as effective in a multi-member crew environment. What irks many of us is the refusal to accept that flying is just one of the skills we apply, decision-making is more important. That is why you pay for experience.

"You don't pay pay me for what I'm doing, you pay me for what I can do if I have to."
- author unknown

[fishboy]

Helo Teacher,
I totally agree with you, I have met and flown with people who have far more flight time than the average CPL but have no idea when it comes to being part of a team.

RW-1,
How do you decide when someone is no longer a novice pilot? Is it a flight time thing, a years thing, or a type of flying thing?

Can I put in some time at the Temple of Rotor Gods? are there any hymns to sing? More importantly; are there any holidays associated with this religion, and what would we eat/drink?

[Pat Gerard]

fishboy,

To reply to your first paragraph, I would say that, if most of the jobs you describe are also dangerous, people do not need a split second decision ( most of the time ) in an emergency. If something happens, either there is not much they can do about it, or they have time to look at the book. If you do not need to be superman to fly a helicopter, you still need more training, skill and experience to face difficult situations
As for your twin experience, insurance companies sometimes require the hours. Also, it is a way for prospective employers to select pilots. It is easier ( and cheaper)to employ someone with the ratings and hours. Lastly, it is the law of supply and demand. If no one was available to do the job, they would probably train somebody on twin from start.

Lastly, I agree fully with heloteacher comments.

Happy new year

[The Nr Fairy]

Fishboy :

My feeling is it's not down to an individual to decide when he stops being a novice, it's down to his peers to decide. But that's just me ( a novice ).

[ShyTorque]

Supply and demand rules OK; already stated.

If there is the choice of a fully qualified pilot or one requiring training it is obvious who will get picked on that occasion. It is merely from commercial necessity and would be poor business practice to do any other. No-one is entitled to a particular job just because they want it, we live in a capitalist society driven by cost.

In the past I have lost out to pilots with less total experience than myself because I lacked the required type rating. The chief pilot told me that he would have been delighted to have taken me on but the owner of the company said no because it was going to cost unnecessary money to train me.

There is no point whining about it or trying to change the rules to suit one's own circumstances.

However, on the contrary, you may suddenly go up a rung or two on the ladder if you are in the right place at the right time...

[EESDL]

Experience = Amount of exposure to ring- restricting situations (RRS).

A pilot with relatively few hours may have accrued more experience in RRS than a pilot with 4 times the hours. Then you have to consider if the lower hours pilot is just damn unlucky or simply foolish by getting themself into those situations in the first place?

Therefore, the more hours, then by default, the greater the exposure to RRS. Even the pilot 'trucking' from A to B for thousands of hours in CAVOK conditions has gained invaluable experience.

I would suggest that the Chief Pilot would be able to quickly determine the ability of the pilot during their B&L check. If he/she can't, then why are they a CP?

[Tandemrotor]

It doesn't matter how many hours you have in your logbook, only the next one's important!

Anyone who needs to tell you the number of hours in his/her logbook, is probably insecure about demonstrating their ability where it matters.

[RW-1]

Fish,

As others have said (and I agree) you don't decide when you are no longer a novice, your peers will do it for you. IMO it's more of a overall evaluation of character, decision making, than actual flight skill, however one does have to be able to meet standards (and helotech is right, there are some real lhigh time pilots who are where they are by the grace of the rotor gods ...)

Sometimes it a matter of how many times you have experienced AIDS. Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome. I myself do not have aids, as student Comm heli pilots do not mate in captivity ...

As for a Temple, don't know of one, however they are partial to offerings of fried chicken :) (not burnt though, this will annoy them)

Songs:
"Life in the fast lane"
"Jungle boogie"
"She blinded me with science"
"Bad to the bone"
"Everybody have fun tonight"
(It's known the RG's like the 80's hehehe ....)

Drinks:

Anything with alcohol, however you cannot intrude on FAA regulations between consumption and liftoff. RW-1's personal min's are 24 hours between bottle to flight.




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Marc

[cullcov]

I sense, in these discussions about ancient v modern a feeling of frustration amongst the up and coming . They look at the ancients who are usually grumpy and probably out of date on JARs and things and think that they(young good looking up and coming things) can do their job better. Well they probably can. But it has always been thus that the young thrusters have to wait their turn. The old codgers,however, have done and seen it all before. What the young should be doing is nestling up to the old miseries and extracting as much from them as they possibly can and supping it up with relish. They must remember that their time will come and what will they be able to hand on to the next generation.So stop bitching and learn.

[Mushy]

All of the above is very interesting but, look at the "Easy Jet" ad in the latest edition of "Flight International" Direct Entry Captains with Type Ratings £67,000pa plus £30,000 Golden Hello with 3000 hrs. I rest my case - or do I?

[SPS]

RW 1

Like you I guess, I was so surprised to see this old thread suddenly find new life that I re -read it!

It looks like I was pitching my 'attiude' post at you, which I assure you I was not. I was trying to make a point about the flavour of the forum at that time (thankfully improving slowly) but it is easy to be out of sync. if not writing like a lawyer all day (and do I like lawyers ? Well, I got AIDS twice......any clue? :)

[RW-1]

SPS,

Naah, I didn't take it that it was directed at me at all. :)

Heck, as for feelings towards high time pilots, I have one who has taken my card, if he gets some ferry flights to bring a 'copter back to Ft. Laud, he says he'll give me a ring. (Heck the price of a 1 way plank ticket to get 12 or so hours of turbine time bring it back? I'm there!)

My biggest fear if I go with him is making some sort of wonderful blunder, not that I could do it any better hehe ... and knowing I'm a novice he wouldn't be making judgements anyway, it would be an instructional flight. but you know what I mean.

Cull hit it, I would like nothing more than to extract the info out of Floyd's noggin and use it the best I can ... I really hope he calls, it would be an adventure for me.

Sure, I'm envious of 'em, but I will get there by learning and experience, not to mention time and $$$$$ :)


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Marc

[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 30 January 2001).]

[fishboy]

I haven't had time to look on here recently, so I was really surprised to see this subject back up.
I fully agree that any time you go for a flight with another pilot, you should try to extract and learn from their experience as much as possible.
I regularly fly with different people from all levels of experience, from the zero time helicopter guy with thousands of fixed wing hours, to the multi thousand hour helicopter pilot. Both can pass on valuable information and experience, but NONE know it all.
If you do a particular flying job for long enough, you are probably better than someone who hasn't done it very long. If you take those same two guys and put them in a different job, one may be better suited to it than the other; it would make no difference how much flight time they each have (within limits of course).
What I get frustated, or irritated about is; why some so called experienced pilots, feel the need to tell everyone how good they are, whilst telling the insurance companies, cheif pilots, and persons with the power, why they shouldn't hire the less experienced among us.
I have found that it is impossible to tell the difference between someone with a thousand hours, and someone with 3 thousand hours. The difference comes with what that person has been doing with those hours.
I recently flew with a photographer with well over a thousand hours. All he's ever done is fly straight and level. The other pilot then takes control whilst he takes pictures. He could fly straight and level, really well!
Just to clarify things; I am not a low time wannabe, and am currently employed. I think attitudes can; and should, change.
Fly safe.