Seat Belt Signs Duration

[TG345]

Some weeks ago I posted a query regarding differring lengths of time after take off that seat belt signs were left illuminated. The gist of my post was that it appeared to me that signs were left on much longer on LoCos as opposed to full service carriers, and I was querying whether this might be a policy to keep the punters belted in whilst meal and beverage services got under way. Your kind replies indicated that this did not seem to be a deliberate policy.

Well, apologies if I am rather labouring the point here, but I want to ask the question again based upon a specific experience. Yesterday I was paxing from AGP to MAN on Monarch - there are two flights per day on that route, so I won't identify the actual one in case this is impolitic.

Departure and climb out were un-eventful, and conditions completely smooth and clear. Cabin crew were released after a few minutes, just after a left turn to BLN. The climb then continued in similarly smooth conditions. Cabin service was started, and several PA announcements made to admonish passengers taking it upon themselves to head for the loos.

Twenty-four minutes into the flight (yes- I was counting!) the signs were extinguished. The FO made an announcement seconds later that we were now in the cruise at FL360. Can any proffessionals shed light on this matter? Obviously safety must be paramount, but I could see no reason - as a humble PPL - why it was necessary to keep the pax in their seats for that length of time.

[CHIVILCOY]

It seems to me that seat belt signs are used far more often these days even during a smooth flight, which makes for thoughts of ulterior motives.

If it is for passengers safety that seatbelt signs are on why do the cabin crew keep walking about serving? I would have thought that their union would be failing in their duty to recognise that their members safety should not take priority over the serving of a drink and snack.

Sorry but I am not convinced that seat belt signs are never used to keep passengers on their bums for other than safety purposes.

[BOAC]

TG - with apologies to Monarch, of course, but it is JUST possible that the pilots 'forgot' the belts - despite what you read here, we are human, and sometimes systems problems or ATC issues can distract enough. Most of us (and I'm sure Monarch) try to release pax as soon as possible (within company SOPs) for your comfort.

[Jetdriver]

As BOAC says it does happen.
Seatbelt signs form part of the checks at a specific point in the climb and descent. However if it is decided to leave them on in the climb then it needs a reminder to self ( or a reminder from someone else ) to switch them off.
However it should be remembered that the signs were initially left on for a reason. That reason may be because some turbulence is anticipated in the later part of the climb or the early part of the cruise.

It may surprise you to learn that for a pilot to switch off the seatbelt sign when there is evidence of turbulence may leave them open to a claim of "reckless negligence". Indeed this happened many years ago to the pilot of an asian airline inbound to the UK and was the basis for a succesful damages claim in the UK high court. Often sig'weather charts will show a probability of turbulence for a given area that in reality may not be as described or even experienced at all. As a result you will find that most pilots will rely on their best judgement and experience in the anticipation of turbulence in deciding on an appropriate course of action. Sometimes of course this will prove subsequently over-cautious, but far better that than the remote possibilty of ambulances having to meet the aircraft to remove injured (or worse) passengers who were not secured.

There is no other motive for keeping the seatbelt signs on longer than necessary as it is in nobodies interest to cause undue discomfort or inconvenience to the passengers in this respect. Neither does the type of carrier reflect on the procedure . That is the fact of the matter whatever you may think.

[marlowe]

sometimes the flightdeck forget as they get distracted by other things going on ,sometimes suprise they are left on due to turbulance and yes sometimes the CSD/PURSER and the captain will agree to keep pax sat down so that the cabin crew have a chance of getting the cabin service completed, especially on short sectors TG345 are you happy now?

[fmgc]

It is not unheard of for one to forget to turn the signs off, and it is not inheard of for the senior cabin crew member to come up to the flight deck and ask if they are still on for a good reason.

[Curious Pax]

Wouldn't dispute one iota of what you wrote Jetdriver, but if the sig weather was the reason, and known in advance from the charts, then good PR would be to mention it in the pre-flight flightdeck PA. Of course I understand that if it was weather encountered en route during a bust time then this may not be possible, and therefore quite possibly irrelevant in the case quoted.

Leading into thread creep regarding flightdeck PAs, but that's another story!

[INLAK]

The reasons may be varied and many, but......if the signs are on, sit down. Simple as that.

[TG345]

Thank you all for your informative replies, and I am particularly interested in Jetdriver's comments which I'm sure many would agree, reflect an unfortunate blame culture which seems to be increasing particularly rapidly in the UK.

With regard to Marlowe's comment, I am happy, and have never meant any implication of dis-satisfaction with aircrew in these threads, merely an interest in whether LoCos and full service airlines had differing procedures. In illustration of this I compare the ZB flight I mentioned in my OP with three full service flights I have just completed. These were KL MAN-AMS, KL AMS-BKK and TG BKK-CNX. On each of these flights, and in quite differing WX conditions, the signs were off within five minutes of take off.

Anyway, I take the inference that perhaps I have rather fixated on this matter, and promise not to raise it again. Thanks once more for your time everyone.

[TightSlot]

I take the inference that perhaps I have rather fixated on this matter, and promise not to raise it again Not at all! You haven't fixated - You have asked a perfectly reasonable question and obtained in response, some excellent answers - IMHO, exactly what PPRuNe is here for and does best. Please feel free to ask questions at any time - most people in here are pleased to help. As a general rule of thumb (others may disagree)the more informed our airline customers are... the better, and happier they are...) ;)

[840]

These were KL MAN-AMS, KL AMS-BKK and TG BKK-CNX. On each of these flights, and in quite differing WX conditions, the signs were off within five minutes of take off.


I take over 100 flights a year for work, mostly with KLM or Aer Lingus and I've certainly noticed a difference between the two airlines. Aer Lingus have the seat belts on for at least the first and last 15 minutes of the flight. KLM turn them off within 5 minutes as you mentioned. However, they are usually turned off on Aer Lingus by the time the food sales start.

Possibly, the fact that Ireland has a more litigious culture than The Netherlands influences this.

[marlowe]

In the grand scheme of things does it really matter when seat belt signs are turned off?

[Globaliser]

marlowe: In the grand scheme of things does it really matter when seat belt signs are turned off?It does when a particular AAirline's policy seems to be to leave them on for the entire flight.

This means that you have to ignore the seat belt sign during the cruise, which means that it becomes a useless device as everyone ignores it all the time. Which, in turn, also leads to pax getting up out of their seats after the gear has gone down for landing, etc. ... I would never have believed it unless I'd seen it myself.

[Final 3 Greens]

This means that you have to ignore the seat belt sign during the cruise, which means that it becomes a useless device as everyone ignores it all the time. Which is unsafe, so yes, it does matter.

Globabliser, I've seen someone unstrap and make for the loo on gear rettraction, unbelievable, but true (i.e. 200' altitude or thereabouts)

A Pavlovian response to the chime when the EXIT/NO SMOKING autoswitch activated on gear retraction on a 320 (many thanks to the poster who explained the airbus logic a couple of weeks ago.)

[marlowe]

i am not saying seatbelt signs should be on all flight but if they are on for awhile on AA why cant pax ask cabin crew if it is safe to go to the washroom? it reflects more on american culture and attitude that they ignore the safety aspects of seatbelt signs and general onboard rules and regulations.

[Globaliser]

marlowe: i am not saying seatbelt signs should be on all flight but if they are on for awhile on AA why cant pax ask cabin crew if it is safe to go to the washroom? it reflects more on american culture and attitude that they ignore the safety aspects of seatbelt signs and general onboard rules and regulations.Why? Because the fasten seat belt sign means - or should mean - that it is unsafe to go to the washroom. Full stop. It should only be on when the crew consider it unsafe, and it should be turned off when it is no longer needed.

Otherwise, just what is the point of having the sign there at all? And misuse of the sign actually causes people to ignore them, whatever other cultural things may be in play.

[OZcabincrew]

when the seatbelt sign is on, you stay in your seat, when it's not, you can walk around. SIMPLE. Otherwise you're likely to cop a stern demanding Flight Attendant in your face. The seatbelt sign means the same thing in any language, so "i don't speak English" is no excuse. Another great use of the seatbelt sign is if everyone is drinking too much and giving the crew hell, whack on the seatbelt sign and "sorry ladies and gentleman, but as the seatbelt sign has been turned on, ALL passengers and CREW, must return to their seats with seatbelts firmly fastened, the service will also cease for this period." It's all self inflicted! Being a responsible adult comes to mind. haha.

Oz

[Ropey Pilot]

i am not saying seatbelt signs should be on all flight but if they are on for awhile on AA why cant pax ask cabin crew if it is safe to go to the washroom?
They can - and do regularly. In our airline we decide at FL100 (10 thousand feet) whether it is smooth enough to release the pax. Depending on ATC the time taken to reach this alt may vary considerably (for those with the stop watches) eg if you are kept at low-level due to other traffic (or even if it particularly warm/cold and you are heavy/light - due to aircraft performance).

As has been mentioned sometimes we forget. If at FL100 the decision was made to keep the sign on there is no further cue to switch them off and the fact that we are strapped in for the duration (I work for a regional operator - flights of less than 1 hour) and usually v. busy (v short gap between establishing in the cruise and preparing/briefing for descent and landing) means we do sometimes overlook the switch.

Occasionally we get a call from the cc asking if there is a reason we have left the signs on as a pax wishes to use the lavatory and we either say yes and explain or sorry they are going off now.

Don't see anything particularly difficult or devious in the whole scenario myself

[Globaliser]

Ropey Pilot: As has been mentioned sometimes we forget. If at FL100 the decision was made to keep the sign on there is no further cue to switch them off and the fact that we are strapped in for the duration (I work for a regional operator - flights of less than 1 hour) and usually v. busy (v short gap between establishing in the cruise and preparing/briefing for descent and landing) means we do sometimes overlook the switch. I think we can all sympathise with the occasional incident when the flight deck forgets to switch the sign off. But that's very different from my experience with a particular AAirline over a number of sectors where the pattern of seat belt sign use strongly suggests that it's become official or unofficial SOP to just leave the signs on all the time, just like the no smoking signs. Like the boy crying wolf, that seems to me to seriously degrade the utility of the sign as a genuine warning.

[radeng]

Globaliser,

I'm not sure if on that AAirline, it isn't a crew thing to avoid having to push the trolley around.

I did have one BA flight from Baltimore to LHR where the signs were on for most of the flight - justifiably, in view of the turbulence. But it was a female captain, and there were comments from the male CC about women drivers. Most unfair - it wasn't her fault. I presume she couldn't sweet talk ATC into a different flight level, or maybe there weren't any that were any better.

[bealine]

In Continental's case, it is now there policy to leave seat belt signs on at all times during the flight.

Apparently, this is to prevent litigation against the airline in the event of injury because "the passenger shouldn't have been out of his seat!!!"

Presumably, other US carriers are following suit!

[Mr A Tis]

Recently flew Air berlin out of BCN. Calm day, smooth air. 35 mins after departure level FL410, still got seat belt signs on. Only after begging the cabin crew twice, they asked the Captain-who turned the signs out straight away. The crew also barred all pax from using the front washroom on the B738 as "not working", yet both cabin crew & flight deck used this washroom during the flt. Not a happy bunny on this on.

[BOAC]

The crew also barred all pax from using the front washroom on the B738 as "not working" - not wrong, Mr A - f/crew SHOULD use the front toilet on a 737 - imagine being stuck behind 2 trolleys in a queue at the rear of the a/c when an engine quits:D . There are 'health and safety' issues which could cause the crew to bar ANY toilet from 'public' use. E.G. Would you fancy a non-flushing toilet after 3 hours of use...................

Regarding belts - it is probable it got 'forgotten'. I doubt there was a devious plan!

[fmgc]

The crew also barred all pax from using the front washroom on the B738 as "not working", yet both cabin crew & flight deck used this washroom during the flt. Not a happy bunny on this on.

The other day we had to mark the front toilet as u/s. You could do a No 1 in it but not a No 2, therefore as crew we could use it but it had to be closed off to pax.

[BOAC]

You could do a No 1 in it but not a No 2 - need to be careful, fmgc - I'm not sure those notations are internationally agreed.:D

[FCS Explorer]

working on the same type (B738) i just experienced the following:
washroom wastebin lid broken off. so what, i think? yeah, but lavatory has to be blocked and marked u/s, only to be used by crew. says the book.

and why? waste bin contains automatic fire extinguisher. the flap/lid is springloaded and closes the bin. with the lid missing flames could come out of the top of the waste bin.

but there's a lot of other possibilities of breaking one of those vaccuum sh***ers. just throw a diaper in. u wouldn't believe how much fun we can have with parenting pax....
often i'm glad to be back in my narrow cubicle behind the tank-style door.

[OZcabincrew]

if you notice during cruise that the seatbelt sign has been turned on and has been on for quite a while, take note of any other passengers that are getting stuck into the booze and it's probably more than likely that the cabin crew have asked the flight deck to turn the seatbelt sign on, meaning cease of service, meaning no more service of alcohol to irresponsible passengers due to the cabin crew also having to be seated. It only takes one idiot to ruin it for everyone else!

Oz

[Globaliser]

OZcabincrew: ... it's probably more than likely that the cabin crew have asked the flight deck to turn the seatbelt sign on, meaning cease of service, meaning no more service of alcohol to irresponsible passengers due to the cabin crew also having to be seated.I like the thinking, but two points occur to me:- This only applies to airlines which have a rule about all service ceasing automatically and cabin crew being seated whenever the seat belt sign is on. I know that QF does this, and used to think that it was an Aussie thing. But DJ didn't seem to do this when I flew on them last month - the cabin crew were up and serving before the seat belt sign was off, and checking that the cabin was secure for landing after the seat belt sign went on. So I'm now wondering whether it's just a QF thing. It's a bit hard to deny service to all the other well-behaved pax on board the flight, just because someone doesn't want to simply refuse service to those to whom service should be refused. I've personally seen QF cabin crew specifically refusing service to individuals, so it's definitely part of what they can do

[christep]

QF is the only airline I know that has the cabin crew follow the seat belt signs. BA, CX and AA certainly don't. On CX the only effect on the service is that hot drinks are not served while the seat belt sign is on.

[Piltdown Man]

I turn the belts off when (everything else being even) it would be safe enough for my Granny to walk down the aisle and take a piddle. Regularly I let the Cabin Crew start their service earlier than this because in our airline, they are at least 70 years younger than my Granny and therefore more able to maintain their footing. I think in some airlines that this is not the case - NW for example. They are also more used to moving about on a moving platform than most other poeple - hence the dual standards.