Laser lights/searchlights

[Lee5timit]

Calling from Canada. - Airborne law enforcement here is in it's infancy so I'm looking for some expertise/insight/opinions. Any incidents from the rest of the world's police aviators of lasers or searchlights directed at police rotorcraft?

Also, what are the policies from longstanding air support units on dual controls in an aircraft? Are the police observers trained to fly as well? Safer?
Many thanks!

[Thomas coupling]

Here in the Uk it's an offence to deliberately shine a light/laser into the cockpit of any a/c. We have had a few prosecutions to that effect over the last couple of years.

Secondly, on the subject of duals fitted:
I am against them being permanently fitted in a single pilot helo. What (if there is the choce) is the point, just another snagging hazard etc.
Observers flying in an emergency...get real!!!! Do you honestly, genuinely believe anyone with a couple of hours under their belt, could bring a helo down safely after pilot incapacitation :eek:
Once the a/c departed controlled flight how would they cope :confused:
best the die with dignity :D

[JohnCarr]

Many moons ago when the British Army used to train Observers/Air Gunners part of the course was to teach them enough to take over and land the aircraft safely. It was about 12 hours from memory,and it may have resulted in a controlled crash if it had been for real, but a crew taken away in an Ambulance has got to be better than one taken away in a hearse.

[Thomas coupling]

Flying an aeroplane in an emergency and from scratch, I would suggest is probably quite feasable. Flying a helo from scratch (10-12hrs)and without current practice, is impossible!
Any takers?

[HeliMark]

What a problem a searchlight can be. Last night someone decided that he would show me how bright his searchlight from the ground was. Can't say it was as bright as mine, or the one in the police officers hand at his door. Usually having a ground guy contact them and explain the ways of the world (arrest, such as felony in my state, federal laws..) they are more then happy to stop. Otherwise they get arrested, no if ands or buts. If it is a laser, no grace afforded to them.

As far as the duals in the helicopters, it is a fairly big debate that can go both ways. L.A.P.D. use to have duals, but I hear they are getting away from that. L.A. County Sheriff does not unless there are two pilots in the craft.

Your best bet is to go to ALEA online. They have a wealth of info.

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: HeliMark ]

[PurplePitot]

I completed an AAC Observer course in 1981 and we were given about 5 hours basic flying training that concentrated on an approach and running landing only - In order to pass the FHT and be awarded the wings the crewman had to demonstrate that he could recognise that the Ac was out of control!! get the pilot locked back into his seat and land the Ac safely. There was also a 'pure flying' currency requirement after passing the course of about one hour a month.

It's difficult when you are a member of the winged master race to accept that landing a helicopter actually isn't that hard... :cool:

[Tuckunder]

Lee5timit:

Yes of course it is possible and on occasions sensible to train observers/crewmen etc. to take the controls and land in an emergency. I have done it in the military and it works well. Down side is that they do need to maintain currency i.e it costs money. I agree with Purple pitot even if I am a member of the winged master race!!

Thomas Coupling:
Can't agree with you on this one I'm afraid.

Happy flying.

[twistgrip]

No problem in teaching an observer with average aptitude to do a run on landing (flat, straight approach) in about 10/12 hours. They could certainly fly/navigate to the nearest airfield with crash facilities. Night flying would probably require more training.

Problem comes with dual controls and re-current checking.

Dual controls could interfere with normal LHS duties and could be a hazard. The concept of dragging an incapacitated pilot away from the controls is a non-starter.

Checking would obviously cost time/money and there would be the inevitable CAA involvement - with all that entails.

Both the above are not insurmountable given commitment.

And - big bonus - it would certainly get rid of the current argument re observer status - passengers or crew....

[Lu Zuckerman]

Many years ago (mid to late 1950s) an USCG Aviator flying a Bell HTL-1 (early model 47) suffered a heart attack. He slumped over the cyclic and immobilized the collective forcing it down slightly. The co-pilot was a senior mechanic with a lot of stick time and was capable of flying the helicopter. He found it extremely difficult to move the pilot back and to lock him in his harness.

The helicopter which was mounted on floats landed flat on the ground and bounced up and in the process of moving upward it turned over and landed on the mast severing the blades and in the process killing the mechanic.

[Out of Balance]

Purplepitot - beat you by one year - No. 40 Aircrewman course. As you say we were taught to take control and land after a few hours training - so it is very feasible.

I now fly single pilot with dual controls fitted permanently and a crewman flies in the left seat, but company and CAA rules dictate that only pilots can handle controls. So of course officially this means that my crewmen do not know how to take control and land should I become incapacitated.

Well I don't plan to become incapacitated, but I do plan to live a long and happy life. ;)

[Vfrpilotpb]

If you as L/H seat had to wrestle a slumping pilot back and off the controls, how many seconds would that take? but at the same time how many seconds would it take for the machine to be totally out of control,not to mention the majority of the PX weight over on the R/H side with the weight of the pilot, seems a senario for John Rambo only! despite all the part time training I feel that TC could be right on this.

[Skycop]

Another factor is that some aircraft have permanently fitted role equipment at the left seat side making it difficult to actually fit dual controls anyway, so they are only fitted for OPCs etc. It isn't possible for the role equipment to be used if the cyclic is fitted because of mechanical / physical interference between the two :(

And if I was to merely nod off (on some of the more boring pursuits for example) it could cause great confusion about who had control. I would be very upset to wake up to find I was being arrested whilst airborne :D

[Coconutty]

Thomas - As a relative "newcomer" to the Police Aviation World - could you post details of any specific offence legislation concerning your successful prosecutions for shining laser lights into an aircraft... Many Thanks

[MightyGem]

My bobbies have the answer (they think!!) should I expire in the air. Jettison my door, push me out and then career around the sky looking for a field to crash in!

I've told them not to bother, just strip off naked and both get in the back and let the AAIB sort it out.
:D

[zardoz]

Ummm, yes, the jettison Pilot method is our preferred solution. However, sequence of events is to remove his wallet before pushing him out (this will probably solve the CofG problem too...). Then get onto ATC and shout "Help help! The pilot has gone berserk and thrown himself from the aircraft!"
Will they then winch Charlton Heston down from a CH53 to take over for us?

<edited to add bit about ANO>

In the UK, the Law used is the ANO 1989 Part V, para 50. "A person shall not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein."
Usual practice is to attempt to dissuade said offender with the NiteSun, and if they persist, send the locals round to obtain details and report for consideration of prosecution.

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: zardoz ]

[md 600 driver]

just to add another twist

what if the [[slightly overweight]] observer passes out on the cyclic .when does he stop being a bobby ,can he be ejected too,

just to fuel the topic.

[destructor]

On our unit during a training day with the duels fitted earlier for pilot training we all had a go at flying S/L and the hover.The S/L bit was managed by most but the hover was very entertaining for those safely on the ground to watch. Lights are bad but some of the new laser sights for rifles are very bad on flight crew at low levels.

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: destructor ]

[Flashman]

Mighty Gem - I heard your bobbies are always jumping in the back naked! :D

[Lee5timit]

Thanks guys to all who responded(even if it did get off topic now and again)

Cheers!!
T5 or was that lee5? ;)

[Droopy]

Zardoz- our experience has often been that using the nightsun has been what they were after all the time, it gets them all excited.
MightyGem - I thought it was relief pilots who were found partly dressed in your aircraft?
On the incapacity question, if the aircraft has an autopilot with heading, airspeed and alt hold you can at least arrange to crash at low speed and low rate of descent pretty close to an RV point with emergency services. Honest.

[Gainesy]

Not quite the original topic but similar. How would I attract the attention of a Police helo at night without dazzling the crew?
A few months ago, well, last winter sometime, was at home watching TV when heard the local MD600 make a series of passes then as I went outside to look, he came into a hover and started scanning around with the NiteSun.
NAGCINC(HOME) then pointed out a car with its lights out hiding under the nextdoor farm track, not visible to cops because of tree cover. I pointed my night-shooting spotlight (1/2 million Cp)at the car and flashed at it a few times but the cops did not notice. After a few mins the helo left and the (I assume) nicked car took off in the opposite direction.
Call 999? Takes too long to explain to them where you are.
Shine light at helo even with best intentions?
Miniflares? :rolleyes:
What do you recommend?

[Droopy]

Gainesy
Sadly the frivolous use of lasers/torches etc is so endemic that the use of one for a genuine reason is simply going to go unnoticed, especially in an urban area; at least one "joey" light per task is common. I'm afraid I don't have an answer to the question of how to indicate something of genuine interest other than gritting your teeth and enduring the cumbersome phone system; it's a problem to all of us.
[PS it's an MD902]

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: Droopy ]

[Arkroyal]

Purple

I take it you went on from your obs course to gain a pilot qualification eventually.....

Or is this not required where you work? :D :D :D

[Lu Zuckerman]

If you want to get the attention of a pilot you might want to try this. In the 1970s I lived in an apartment adjacent to the North Runway at LAX. This runway was used exclusively by the heavy iron (747s, L 1011s and DC-10s). Some of the airlines had operational procedures that kept them on the runway until the last minute to build up speed and when they lifted off the runway they would climb NOE over a large hill with a Nike Base on the top. This was difficult enough in the daylight but at night it was just asking for an accident.

It seems that some of the local youth (or should that be plural yeeth) had obtained a block of magnesium along with several smaller pieces. The placed it in a field adjacent to the runway at about 9-10:00 PM and set the magnesium alight. I can only imagine what the pilots thought when they lost their night vision capability but it was obvious that those airlines that had the delayed lift off were in a lot of problems as they could not see Nike hill nor could they see where they were in relation to the runway length. The cops and the LAX fire department were on it in about five minutes and put the fire out but in the meantime the pilots and controllers were going crazy.

[PurplePitot]

Ark - As long as you are in possesion of a used bus ticket that's good enough for us. :D :D :D

[Arkroyal]

I'll be back then :p

[MightyGem]

Flashman, if you know that then I should know you. However, nobody springs to mind.

Droopy, I believe I know you. Were you called by the name of a certain glove puppet in you previous life?

;)

[helmet fire]

To get a helicopters attention at night simply illuminate your wife and ask her to slowly expose her funbags. Then move light to offending car/badguy/etc and I bet they will follow........ They may land for a doughnut too!!

A US Army OH-58 was on finals to a night LZ on an exercise in the late '70s. A documentary crew who were filming the exercise finally got set up to film the helicopter which by this stage was on very late finals. The sudden illumination of the white spotlight on the aircraft turned the pilot into a startled rabbit and the aircraft into a training aid!! :D :D

Examine your Canadian laws for the "interferrence of an aircraft in flight" which was part of the ICAO legislature beefed up during the Istanbul (I think) conference on Hijaking. The aiming of a laser (in particular) or a searchlight at a night flying helicopter can be seen to constitute "interference with an aircraft in flight" and you might be able to get them this way. I note that the shining of lasers at people is considered an assault in many countries already, so it may not be such a long stretch. Then again, carry a sniper - much quicker, more effective, provides good practice, and reduces the possibility of the shiner breeding more idiots.
:eek: