PDA

View Full Version : Pilot shortage in CHINA??


Kerropi
8th Nov 2005, 13:23
I have read many stories / articles about the pilot shortage in China. What are the truths behind these stories and when can we expect these airlines to recruit low time pilots?

As I understand there are currently no shortage of pilots only a shortage of experienced pilots. Is this again one of those many stories from FTO's




From the Times August 2005:

China and India lure pilots from West to plug gaps
By Angela Jameson, Industrial Correspondent

CHINESE airlines are rushing to recruit qualified European pilots to counter a potential shortfall of 8,000 pilots over the next ten years.

The challenge to European airlines is also coming from India as it scrambles to lure captains from the West.

China’s booming commercial aviation industry is taking off more rapidly than the country can train pilots, and so airlines are being allowed to recruit foreigners for the first time. At least 100 European pilots have been hired by Hainan Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, Sichuan Airlines and Okay Airways, China’s first private operator, this year. More are expected.

Air travel in China has grown rapidly in the past ten years and the expansion is set to soar. Forecasters expect China, in the next two decades, to become the world’s second-largest aviation market after the US. Last year China’s major airlines carried 120 million passengers, a 38 per cent rise on 2003. About 145 new aircraft will be delivered this year and China confirmed a $6 billion (£3.3 billion) contract for 50 new Boeing 787 Dreamliners in June at the Paris air show.

Boeing estimates that China will need more than 2,400 new passenger and freight aircraft costing almost $200 billion over the next two decades.

It will need 55,000 pilots to fly them in the next 20 years and is investing heavily in training schools. However, qualified captains are needed in the short term. Many Europeans have considered working in China, but are put off by the poor pay and conditions.

China pays pilots $2,466 to $6,000 a month, against $8,000 in India and between $8,000 and $18,000 in the UK.

Frances Cooremans, managing director of Contractair, a UK-based supplier of flight crews that has sent captains to China, said: “The pilot shortage in China is drastic. However, there is a shortage of suitably qualified crews worldwide. To entice experienced crews they are going to have to compete with the booming Indian market, which is willing to offer good terms and conditions. Until China simplifies its entry requirements and looks to compete with financial packages on offer as in India, it will be hard to find crews willing to go.”

Bureaucracy hinders recruitment of foreign pilots, who still have to gain Chinese licences. There is also concern that accommodation and benefits, such as flights home, are not sufficient to lure Western pilots. Most of the foreigners flying in China have been recruited from South America and Eastern Europe.

India has also been forced to hire foreign pilots. Air India is understood to have grounded aircraft because of a shortage of pilots. Experts expect India to need up to 4,000 more pilots over the next five years and that training them will cost about $200 million.

Andrew Middleton, head of airline recruitment at Wynnwith Engineering, said: “Recruiting qualified captains is a problem for all major airlines at a time when soaring fuel prices are cutting into their profits.”

BEIJING REFORMS AIRLINE RULES

· China pays pilots $2,466 to $6,000 a month, against $8,000 in India and between $8,000 and $18,000 in the UK.

· China will start to deregulate civil aviation on August 15, government sources indicate. Domestic private investors will be able to invest in six local airlines but not the three largest airlines, Air China, China Eastern Airlines and China Southern Airlines.


And from the Daily Mirror August 2005:

HOLS PILOT SHORTAGE

AIRLINES are struggling to find cockpit crews for the holiday season because of a severe shortage of pilots.

Surging demand for air travel and low investment in training after 9/11 mean there are not enough qualified pilots to meet demand. Aerospace engineers are also in short supply.

Technical recruitment company Wynnwith said: "Airlines have requirements that are unfulfilled because of the shortage.

"Some carriers are struggling to find crews for their charter flights this summer. The worst case is that some airlines won't be able to make all the flights they want."


Foreign pilots are to be drafted into Chinese airlines to relieve the shortage of qualified flyers, according to a soon-to-be-launched policy made by the General Administration of Civil Aviation of China (CAAC) on recruiting pilots from abroad.

Overseas pilots will be employed by Chinese carriers after obtaining flight licenses in China Rao Shaowu, director of the CAAC's Flight Standard Department.

CAAC statistics show that about 11,000 pilots are employed to fly more than 770 aircraft.
Industry experts estimate China needs between 1,200 and 1,600 new pilots every year since 2000.
Around 145 new aircraft will be delivered this year in China.
Capacity of Chinese pilot training schools cannot supply enough new pilots."

Daniela Schmidt's newly-obtained commercial pilot license appeared to be of little use after Swissair went bankrupt four years back leaving hundreds of experienced pilots competing for jobs at struggling European airlines.

But China's fast developing economy has given the 25-year-old Swiss a new opportunity as she becomes its first foreign female commercial pilot at the country's first privately-held airline.

For the startup Okay Airways, based in northern Tianjin, the move to recruit young, but eager foreign fliers gives it a chance to compete in the domestic aviation industry, now dominated by three state-backed behemoths.

Schmidt followed her Dutch boyfriend to China last year even though she did not speak or read Putonghua and had never visited the country. ``I didn't think I could find work in China,'' she said. ``But China is giving me an opportunity to fly that I wouldn't have otherwise.'' She is the only woman among six foreign pilots that Okay Airways has recruited as co-pilots amid a local shortage.

The shortage of pilots comes as growth in China's air travel is expected to stay robust. Airbus estimates China will need to order 1,790 passenger and cargo jets, or US$230 billion (HK$1.8 trillion) worth, in the next 20 years. Over a 10-year period, China's passenger and freight traffic should rise about 9 percent annually.

``China is short of captains and co-pilots. We offer young foreign pilots an opportunity to grow,'' Okay chairman and president Liu Jieyin said. He estimated China will be short of some 8,000 pilots in the next 10 years.

Besides Schmidt, the others are a Chinese-Canadian, a Swiss and four pilots from Hong Kong, aged from 25 to 30. They have one thing in common - they have obtained a pilot's license in their home countries but can't find work there.

``A lot of trained pilots in the West can't find an opportunity to put some experience under their belt, while we in China are short of co-pilots, captains and even technicians,'' Liu said.

That makes pilots, who have finished their training, but need more practice to improve their skills, a good fit for China's aviation industry, Liu said, adding that he intends to recruit more foreign pilots in coming months.

But the strategy is also about cost for startup carriers such as Okay Airways, which - with just six leased Boeing 737 aircrafts - is entering a market controlled by giants led by Air China, China Southern Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Experienced foreign pilots, a common feature of Middle Eastern airlines like Dubai-based Emirates Airlines, are too expensive for China's smaller airline companies.

These young Okay pilots will take a pay cut. They will receive a salary of about 20,000 yuan (HK$18,860) a month - higher than the 11,000 yuan that Air China offers its co-pilots, but well below any European standard.

But Schmidt's enthusiasm is undimmed. ``I would fly for less, as long as I can fly,'' she said. ``It's been my goal since I have been 15.''

Schmidt's debut is expected in two months, after she completes the training on a Boeing 737-900, the first jet that Okay has leased from South Korea.

On Friday, when Okay Airways' maiden flight takes off from Tianjin to Kunming in the south - one of four routes it is licensed to fly - Schmidt will be in the cockpit watching.

The airline is an experiment altogether. After restructuring China's aviation industry in recent years, Beijing gave the nod last year to allow small private airlines to set up in response to the growing passenger and route demand.

But regulatory restraints may limit the potential of these start ups.

Okay is the first to receive a license from the General Administration of Civil Aviation of China. Another three, Shanghai-based Spring International Airlines, Chengdu-based Eagle Airlines and Huaxia Airlines in the Gansu province, are awaiting their licenses.



More from the Standard

Jinkster
8th Nov 2005, 22:21
Bring it on!! :E

fATPL - 260hrs all current and ready to go!

Feel free to pm :O

bafanguy
8th Nov 2005, 22:50
This is a recurring theme. Where is the contact information for these airlines in such dire need of experienced pilots ?

glennox
9th Nov 2005, 09:08
Does nayone know how the contact details and web address for okay airlnes/airways?

Kerropi
9th Nov 2005, 13:15
:( NO COMMENTS??? No further information?

It remains very queiet here?? are all those people already on their way to China??

Just another student
9th Nov 2005, 13:23
I'm struggling to find any contact details myself for Okay Airways.
Plenty of articles regarding them, but no website etc

Anybody had better luck than me?

glennox
9th Nov 2005, 14:26
The only contact details I can find is a website
www.okair.net (http://www.okair.net) but I keep getting a proxy error and a "please try agian later" message.

Very unusual for an airlines website to be down in this day and age.

richiya
10th Nov 2005, 12:57
Found this while looking for info on Ok Air:


OK Airlines' Online Presence
Here's an example of an online marketing campaign gone awry: China has approved a number of airlines to start low-fare services on domestic routes. The first airline launched this past Friday, and it's called OK Air.

Now, emblazoned on the sides of each new OK Air jet is the logo for the airline, incorporating it's domain name of okair.net.



This picture has been all over the Chinese and foreign media, but the website at www.okair.net is still not built and is not functioning. I did a whois lookup and found the company also bought okayair.net, but that too is sans website.

You would think that which such hoopla, the company could at least launch its website on time, or at least put up a very simple page that tells users like me that the website will be available soon.


richiya

purple head
10th Nov 2005, 13:04
Okay airways web page does not work, they have not finished it yet. I know because I met the person who is responsible for hiring pilots in Beijing, also met one of the three directors, HR dept etc etc just 2 weeks ago. Also with regards to the reports on okay about hiring low hour pilots, yes it is true but not the good news some of you might be hoping for. The currently have 7 low hour "foreign" pilots. 6 from HK (so I don't think they really count) and a woman from Switzerland, who and I’m not 100% sure about this but I'm pretty sure they said she speaks Chinese.
With regards to the pilot shortage, yes and no. For example China Eastern are increasing its fleet from almost 200 aircraft to 700 over the next decade. They don't currently hire ex-pat pilots but they are planning to. They have a senior pilot who is in charge of foreign pilot recruitment. After speaking to him in Shanghai, from what I can gather it’s the government that wont let them recruit ex-pats at the moment. (CSE is a state run airline)
I also went to see some other airlines, one that has recently just got rid of all its ex-pat FO's due to cockpit conflicts, but they kept the ex-pat captains. Which makes me think the shortage is not so bad.
I also know that almost every airline has a massive amount of sponsored Chinese pilots in training now, both in America (Florida and Oklahoma) and in the news schools that have recently set up in China.
If you want to get employed in China, you need a better reason than just because you could not get a job in Europe.
The Chinese aren't stupid they know most of us will just get experience and then return to Europe if they give you a job.
I had a good reason for wanting to work in China (and I’m not sharing it on pprune) but if you want to work there its possible, but a word of advice. The Chinese work very different to Europe. If you want to have a chance there, either get on a plane and go visiting them, know someone there who can help you with contacts, or do as I did- do both.
If you just send CV's or even phone them and speak English from the UK or Europe I’m 99% sure you won't get a job. Getting a job in China is about face-to-face meeting and contacts.
But if I can do it, it is possible.
p.s. might sound strange but the web site is not as important as we in Europe might think. Only a very small number of people in China have credit cards and so can't use the web to book tickets. The Chinese book most internal flight tickets through walk in offices or agents.

bafanguy
10th Nov 2005, 15:00
purple head,

Thanks for posting your experience/insight regarding the China situation.

They have announced some rather ambitious plans, to say the least. And, it appears they're going to need a lot of pilots to make it work. Since it takes a long time to get someone ready to jump into the cockpit, they'll have to resort to expats whether they want to or not. I understand why they wouldn't want to make a long term practise of it, but business is business.

They may have to alter their way of looking at the situation and employment practises to make their plans work. The world operates via the internet...just the way it is. This may mean they need to get the website fully functional, publish all their requirements, and accept having to do some, at least, preliminary pilot screening via emailed resumes.

I accept there are cultural differences in the way countries do business, but most people don't have the inside contact you are fortunate enough to have, nor are they necessarily willing/able to jump on an airplane and fly to Beijing on the "possibility" they may get a few minutes with the appropriate person.

They may have to look outside their current parameters for the cockpit experience they need to make all their plans work. Low time FOs are fine, but you need a lot of experience to run the show while the younger pilots gain enough experience to replace the expats.

I can tell them where they can find a goodly number of 20,000+ hour pilots but they may not presently consider them what they're looking for or have made an appropriate offer to attract these people...or even get their attention.

I've tried to stay abreast of the China job situation as I find the idea interesting. But, I'm afraid job information is a bit sparse so maybe the new Chinese airlines need to do a better job of making their requirements and application methods better known/available without prospective applicants having to buy a ticket to Beijing.

Good luck in your adventure there. I truly admire your drive and stamina.

HEG
13th Nov 2005, 19:37
Purple head,

I have looked over the pilot hiring requirements of these chinese companies like Okay. They don't write anything regarding typerating requirements, self financing of training, bonding and such. Does that mean you don't have to pay for your own typerating?:) ...or does it just mean that they take it for granted, that you already have a typerating on one of their aircraft?:ugh:

happy landings
HEG

purple head
13th Nov 2005, 21:15
Every airline I spoke to would pay for the type rating if needed and if they wanted to give me a job. No bond provided by myself, but, and I don’t want to give my exact figures for obvious reasons, but lets say the type rating and training cost the airline £5000 (we wish a type rating was so cheap) If I left straight after doing the type rating I would need pay £5000 but every year this decreases by £1000, so if I left after 4 years, I would need pay them £1000.

bafanguy
14th Nov 2005, 22:32
purple head,

Would you be so kind as to provide any direct contact info you have for any/all start-up China airlines ? I've made an effort to find where/whom to send my information but have come up with nothing. I even went so far as to email a Boeing rep in China seeking this information.

Result: nothing.....

If there is a leasing agent, could you say who this is ? Thanks.

DeltaT
15th Nov 2005, 02:31
Purple Head

With such information you certainly could have kept to yourself if you wanted, and I think it was very good of you to tell all.
Your revelations fly in the face of all that is published in the papers and rumours! -And clears things up as to why many postings on this topic have gone silent.
But having done what you have said and seen them face to face, did you score a job?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

purple head
15th Nov 2005, 08:20
read the "careers worldwide" topic.Might be on the second page by the time you read this. Its very similar to this topic and answers you questions.

bafanguy
15th Nov 2005, 14:13
purple head,

Read about your unusual route to a job. Congrats...it's a jungle out there and perhaps your sacrifice now will pay off down the road. It's a tough call either way.

From your experience, did you get the impression that high-time pilots were making contacts with the Chinese airlines the same way you did or were the usual agencies involved, ie, Parc, Rishworth, etc. ?

purple head
15th Nov 2005, 16:27
There was a pilot from Brazil that I spoke to in China. He is a captain. He got placed using an agency, I can't remember the exact name but it was something like Alpha Aviation or something similar. I remember he said they are based in Macau. I tried a search but got no web page. If anyone else knows it they might want to post it here.
I also heard from another pilot that one airline accepted CV's and did the interviews, but them for some paperwork, or work permit reasons they then passed these names to an agency who employed them but working for the original airline. Very strange. Also I know that foreign aircrew can not fly to quite a few places in china still, so the airlines place a restriction on the number foreign aircrew they hire.

bafanguy
15th Nov 2005, 18:55
purple head,

Thanks. I looked at countless agency websites and found nothing indicating recruiting for China. With the big plans for Chinese aviation, they're going to need a lot of people. Wonder where they'll all come from....

sony
15th Nov 2005, 19:35
They may need tons of people, but at this point most are going to have to carry P.R.C. passports. As Purple Head has mentioned, there are MANY restrctions on what airports that foreign pilots can operate to. It would be a waste of money at this point to hire tons of expats, only to have them sit around on their arses beacuse they are not permitted to fly into many airports.

bafanguy
15th Nov 2005, 19:59
sony,

True enough. As long as they have tons of experienced captain material with PRC passports walking around looking for work....problem solved.

bafanguy
16th Nov 2005, 14:47
For the information of people interested in the China job market, I emailed "Linda" as purple head suggested and got a nice, honest, and prompt reply.

It wasn't what I wanted to hear, but I do appreciate her opinion. That opinion being: 58 is just too frikkin' old to be considered by the new airline companies there.

Oh well.....

DeltaT
16th Nov 2005, 20:17
While not being China, but if anyone is looking out that way, I found out yesterday that the law in India prevents the airlines there employing expat F/Os. Captains only.

George Semel
16th Nov 2005, 22:39
I turned down a job there a week or so ago. Not enough money. It was for a flight training school. Anybody wants the information I have, I wil send it along.

bafanguy
23rd Nov 2005, 15:13
Just saw an article about some labor difficulty at China Eastern. In this article, it mentioned that the CAAC had changed the mandatory retirement age for pilots in China from 60 to 63...this past July specifically to address the looming pilot shortage.

Can anyone confirm or deny this ?

chinapilot223
24th Nov 2005, 09:44
1. Shenzhen Airlines had a peak of around 50 foreign pilots in 2004. The foreign pilot FO's passed the Chinese ATPL but could not pass the Commercial written. So............ Shenzhen dismissed all foreign FO's. The remaining foreign pilots are captains.

2. The CAAC required all foreign pilots to obtain a Chinese ATPL before 2005.

3. I am not aware of any Chinese company hiring low time FO's. OKAY Airlines may have hired the Swiss girl and a few more. The Chinese want their own pilots to learn to fly. Any low time FO's will come from within for quite some time. I am not aware of any Chinese FO shortage.

4. If you are a current and qualified B-737 Captain you may be able to find a job in China. However, India pays more and has a much better package than the Chinese.

Arrowhead
27th Nov 2005, 05:18
Purple Head has it mostly right. Put yourself in the seat for a moment.

1) Did you pass your Chinese Air Law exam (written in Chinese only?) in order to be able to fly B registered aircraft?

2) Are you surrounded by Chinese who speak relatively poor English, and therefore dont really talk to you?

3) Do you like eating parts of animals that most people in Europe throw away (plus scorpions, millipedes etc)? This is no joke when you are there I can assure you...

4) Do you mind sitting in the jump seat for 3 years observing? (cos that's what they do at Hainan if you do not have hours on type, and I am sure other airlines too...)

5) Do you like getting paid GBP1300/month?

6) ARE YOU GOING TO STAY?

So really, anyone who knows Europeans knows this is not ideal, and that you are likely to F*** off asap. So you are unlikely to get in, except on a temporary contract if you have the hours already.

The agency in macau is Contractair (she' English). There is a website.

p.s. you are also up against thousands of Brazilian pilots with plenty of time of the Airbus who have been getting paid GBP10,000 a year....

Sadly guys, this is reality. But I would encourage you to discuss your options with Frances at Contractair.

purple head
27th Nov 2005, 11:03
1. You don't need to speak Chinese to pass this exam, you need to be able to read the symbols. Easier than it sounds at first, for example you see the symbol for a woman and you read it in your head as woman. It quite hard at first but with practise you soon start remembering the symbols.
2. In my experience simply not true. Most young Chinese pilots have trained in USA, so there English is pretty good. Yes there are some problems with the old pilots but if you’re going to live in another country why not make the effort to learn the language.
3. Again in my experience simply not true. If you want you can eat silk worms, scorpions etc and yes I tried them and even had a mouth full of dog (could not eat more than one mouth full) but even the small cities have McDonalds etc and the Chinese and other regional restaurants are pretty good food. I.e. chicken, beef, lamb etc and if you want yes they have chicken feet on the menu.
4. Can't comment directly on Hainan (probably one of the worst chinese airlines to work for and with the worst base/place to live), but in my case after reaching 300 hours, flying 90 per month, I’ll be in the right hand seat with out a training FO with me.
5. Compared to a local this is a big salary, enough to live well and more than a UK flying instructor would get paid. It’s also a starting salary and after 3 years, in my case, it will rise to £2600 per month, ok for the UK and very good wage for china.
6. In my case yes but China is not for everyone.

I know a Brazilian pilot who gets over twice the £10000 you have said.
The main thing is about China is it is different to Europe, if you're thinking about going there it must be for other reasons than simply to fly. But with the right mind set, you can also find that it is a very enjoyable place to live and when you make local friends, they are nice people.
China does get a lot of bad press, some of which is deserved. But it also has alot of good things about living there.

Patty O'Furniture
28th Nov 2005, 06:20
Thanks guys for all the info!

I'm a ATPL holder in Australia and looking to move to China for a little while (I have lived in Thailand, Laos and the Phillipines so I am quite sure I can bare it, as long as the beer is cold). What I need to know is what type of type rating would benefit me the most in applying for an FO position somewhere, if they are even doing it for that matter...

Any help would be appreciated!

purple head
28th Nov 2005, 07:38
My airline is paying for my type rating, but if you want to take that road it would be the normal 737 or A320 as they are the aircraft the private companies use and thats who the ex-pats seem to fly for.