MD Explorer

[MightyGem]

We are in the early stages of looking for a replacement for our Police twin squirrel.
We can get good and bad feedback on the 135 from users, but asking questions about the 902 brings blank looks and a change of subject from anyone involved with it.

Would anyone care to comment?? :)

[hydraulicpalmtree]

MightyGem :

Wiltshire Police have a 902 which is shared use between themselves and the Ambulance service. It flies from Police HQ in Devizes, and I think it's operated by PAS out of Staverton - sorry Gloucester. Perhaps worth speaking to them to see what they think.

[Marco]

Mighty Gem:

West Midlands ASU have just taken delivery of a 902 and I'm sure they would oblige if you have any queries. As to comparisons the 902 can give you Helipad performance at MAUW up to +26 deg C which I know the 135 can't.

[PurplePitot]

The EC135 is an excellent police machine and is very similar in performance to the Mk9 Lynx - with which I suspect you are well acquainted! - AUM is never a problem and the only draw backs that are worthy of note are; the 17 hour service bulletins on the drive shaft which should be resolved this summer, the high skid which can (and does) get in the way of the camera and the poorly positioned SX5 which, again, is limited on occasion by the high skid position. These limitations can be easily overcome by the pilot.

I have just remembered the biggest drawback of all, the EC135 is restricted to 1000 ft cloudbase at night due to a lack of AP and despite what MACS say about this CAA regulation, it’s going to be a long time before it is resolved.

I have not flown the 902 but from looking inside I can tell you that its looks mighty chummy!!

[Zeusman]

Mighty Gem,

A new helicopter will look nice outside your new portacabins!!!! Thought you lot were short of money or are you keeping up with the Joneses.

You already know who and where I am. We have just put the names in the hat to choose between the two above helicopters. The UEO and most of the staff here are well versed in the facts, lies and counter-lies regarding the 135/902. Get your UEO to speak with our UEO and I'm sure he will discuss the boxes and boxes of information he has gathered researching the topic.

Be aware that when £2-3 million is on offer peoples ability to give a clear, concise answer to tricky answers can be affected. :rolleyes:

Best of luck. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by Zeusman (edited 12 February 2000).]

[Skycop]

One unit flying one of these two types has had two replacement main gearboxes so far (luckily for them inside the warranty period). Unlucky?

[Tipstrike]

Zeusman
I thought you were buying a fixed wing not a new chopper - why the change of heart (and wings)?

[leading edge]

I have flown both and from a piots point of view I liked the MD902, lots of power and not too sensitive to wind direction.

From an operator's point of view though I would go for the 135 as it will probably have better support from Eurocopter (at least in Europe) Residual values should be better as well. I really hope the 902 does well as it is a great idea but it is going to be a brave commercial operator who buys a fleet of them.

I also flew the EC 155 recently and it is an impressive machine from a pilots viewpoint. It should give the 76C+ some stiff competition but it needs a higher TOGW to really compete in the offshore market.

[Hoist-to-Crew]

What has happened to the problem of cracking on th e135 that caused the North Wales one to place a concrete weight in the bay at the back of the fuselage?

[Chip Lite]

I thought North Wales usually put a local scroat in the aircraft while they went for a brew!

[ANOrak]

CAA's General Aviaton Occurrence list 1.11.99 - 17.1 00 reports a VSI and a laser beam problem with the EC135.

The MD900 has pitch link problems - would you trust a pilot to maintain your helicopter?

It also reports the MD900 having a double salko and triple toe-loop characteristic - worrying.

The Romney Marsh A109 Power looks interesting - or even more worrying.

[hydraulicpalmtree]

ANOrak :

Do you have the URL for the CAA occurence reports ?

[ANOrak]

hydraulicpalmtree (hope the spelling's right I find it difficult to spell aviatoin).

Sorry no URL but telex: 878753

Tel: 01293 573220

[This message has been edited by ANOrak (edited 22 February 2000).]

[Zeusman]

[This message has been edited by Zeusman (edited 02 March 2000).]

[MightyGem]

Many thanks for all your replies. Zeusman, your bit about extended range tanks reminds me of when we fitted them to a Mk 7 lynx in Detmold as a trial. There it was sat in the hanger with both extra tanks fitted and as much fuel as could be poured in. It was only then that someone had a thought, did some sums and found it was over MAUM!! Ah Detmold... those were the days :)

[PurplePitot]

Halycon days indeed. Wasn't that particular Mk7 called the flying bomb?

[Chip Lite]

Mighty G, Hadn't you better get yourselves a decent and permenant Gaff to live in before you purchase a new stead? :)

[MightyGem]

Just to say thanks for all your replies. CL, you don't need a nice garage when you're going to keep the ferrari parked on the drive! ;) ;)

[Chip Lite]

A 10 year old one at that with 2x V23's submitted!!!! :)

[JWP]

MD have issued a press release which states that the following UK operators have ordered Explorers for delivery near the end of 2000 or early 2001.
- Greater Manchester Police
- West Yorkshire Police
- unnamed EMS operator (anyone care to speculate?)
.
Bearing in mind past interest in the subject on this forum, I wonder what decided these units on the 902 as opposed to the 135 or the 109 Power?
.
GMP would also seem to be forcing the end of the NW consortium in its current format, as the current supplier of maintenance and spare aircraft is Eurocopter (wearing McAlpine clothing)....

[suckback 6]

the smoke looks a good bet

[ANOrak]

Suckback 6: Who has taken up smoking,the purchasers or the 902s - worrying?!!

[mogwai]

The ems operator might be a capital one...

[PANews]

The sale to Virgin HEMS is 100% certain - it was announced by the CP at Brighton recently, The suggestion [true or false] is that there is another sale but this may just be commercial confusion.

------------------

[inthegreen]

I fly for a EMS company in the US. Within the next year or so we will be replacing some of our aging Bell 222s, mainly due to the rising cost of Bell parts. We are seriously looking at the MD902 as a replacement and would like any comments from those of you flying one now or with recent experience on the type. I myself have some experience with the 900, dating back about four years, and was impressed with it. I'm wondering about the impact of the PW 207 on performance, range, etc. Anyone flying it SPIFR? Thanks in advance.

[Thomas coupling]

I hope one of the 902 operators responds to you. We have enough of them flying the beastie now however I,m not sure whether the 207 P&W's are installed yet...might be wrong though. Currently the UK operates about 6 HEMS/POLICE 902's a/c and by all accounts they seem to be producing the goods. No funny business from them that we have heard about.....yet! Try your post again and include the words "HEMS and POLICE" in the heading.. Safe flying


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/AnimatedGif/redstar.gif

------------------
Thermal runaway.

[tbc]

Try contacting Medical Aviation Services as they have operated the Explorer for a couple of years now in both the Police & HEMs roles. Try e-mailing '[email protected]' and hopefully someone will pick up on it and respond.

[Earpiece]

I have heard that the rotor blades have been suffering from cracks on the leading edges, that the fuel indication is suspect but it flies well on one engine and the ducted fan doesn't like rain.

Is this true or just hearsay?

"trying to listen out again"

[swerve]

All true from earpiece PLUS not cleared for SPIFR in the uk yet - nor in the near future I suspec. MAS talk a good talk but can't ofer the goods as advertised, maybe wait and watch a little longer

[Marco]

West Yorkshire Police (UK) are shortly to take delivery of a 902 with 207 engines as are Greater Manchester Police. Get in touch with Mark Woodward at MAS.
[email protected]

[Tail Skid]

I heard that the HEMS Explorer had an engine flame-out recently. Seems one engine simply ran out of fuel! The Explorer's fuel system leaves something to be desired, it has one tank split down the middle by a baffle. This can result in a fuel imbalance and, as each engine is fed from either side of the baffle ... you can work the rest out for yourselves. In addition it seems that the fuel gauge is pretty inaccurate!
So far the Explorer's problems have been kept fairly well under wraps, I think the lid may be starting to be prised off the can of worms. Good luck all you Explorer pilots.

[john du'pruyting]

The 902 is certified and legal SPIFR in the US and JAA countries (any delays in the UK are probably courtesy of the CAA). In its IFR version it is as well, if not better equipped than most of the IFR aircraft operating on the North Sea. I believe that Sussex Air Support Unit are happy with their aircraft which has a full Police and Hems fit,(although it has to be said that they do not operate IFR).
The lack of information about any potential snags with the 902 may be because there are few that cause any of the operators any real concern. The current rotor and wing magazine contains an unbiased report of the 902 which should convince you that it is a capable machine for HEMS work.
Personally speaking, I can't believe that I'm lucky enough to have flown in one!

[Intersection]

Anyone got any performance data or handling info on the explorer. Pilot comment etc..
;)

[HeliEng]

If I remember rightly (and correct me if I am wrong) was it not the "Explorer" that had problems with bits of the blades falling off?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ppheli]

Perhaps this thread can bring in some comment some UK MD Explorer operators from the meeting in the Humberside area last week? All UK Explorer operators met face-to-face with MD. Why was this meeting required? :confused: What views were being aired? What was the outcome? Will the Explorer be the better aircraft for it?

[Thomas coupling]

A great aircraft, worthy of holding its own with any other new generation helo. HOWEVER, there is an awful lot of secrecy surrounding anything to do with the 902 in operation...why is that? :confused:

[Bearintheair]

I've been flying the Explorer in Police & HEMS ops for 2.5 years and it's a great aircraft. It handles well and has stacks of power even with the 206 engines. It is Helipad capable at MAUW up to +26 deg and sometimes above dependant on QFE. The large boxy cabin is ideal for emergency services ops, giving room to work and great flexibility.
There have been anumber of maintenance problems, some down to PAS disorganisation and some down to the aircraft or more correctly to the spares supply from MDH.
The recent meeting at Humberside of the MD 902 user group was largely to address these problems rather than any gripes with the aircraft itself.
The specific engineering problems were largely inherited by MDH from Boeing who did little to sort them out or promote the aircraft.
The blade delamination has been solved by modded blades although not everyone has a full set of new blades yet. The MGBx oil system has been modded and new gearboxes are shortly to come on line. Notar out of balance problems have been largely solved by balancing the fan regularly pending modified blades.
None of these have caused a major problem other that the length of time that it has sometimes taken for spares to arrive which is a problem that MDH are also trying to solve. We have found that MDH have worked hard to sort out technical problems and provide a mod when required. Although these sometimes take longer to come through than the operators would like this may be a little unrealistic given that MDH was a brand new company 2 years ago and they seem to have inherited a disorganised and undeveloped programme from Boeing and that the MD 902 is only one of their products.

Hope this helps !!!

[sdoyle]

I can concur with Bear, but the most outstanding features are that there is virtually NO vibration, almost NO noise and more importantly its the first heli in which I can sit up straight and look around with plenty of headroom.
The instrumentation is quite intuitive but quite daunting at first to the analogue brains amongst us.
Its also nice to have plenty of power and a tail rotor (NOTAR) which is more efficient than it needs to be.
Even the seats are comfortable! ;)

[Thomas coupling]

Doesn't beat a 135 though :cool:

[CareBear]

The 902 gets my vote. A great aircraft that does the job extremely well. Any relatively new aircraft will have it's share of teething problems (Merlin !!!!!)- but at least MD do seem to be trying to resolve them.

[sdoyle]

TC

Might be a good time for your objective assessment of both types.

[Kipper]

Having the privilege of flying both the EC135 and MD902 in the Police role they both have their strong points and, as always, we could make a perfect Police machine by blending the two together.

Plus points of the MD902, compared with the EC135, IMOH:

Engine handling and EECs (FADECs), although why PAS had to put the wiper switch where it interferes with #2 manual throttle, I don't know.

Cockpit headroom and visibility (no overhead console) - for lanky people like me

Built in test and recording equipment - IIDS (CDS in 135)

Low vibration

Comprehensive autopilot but beware SAS dropping out on manoeuvring

Negative points:

Heading control - fenestron giving 50 kts sideways and backwards in 135 is MUCH more precise

Rear cabin space and visibility

Seating - OK once you're in but small door and diagonal seat brace make it impossible to look punchy getting in or out!

Intercom/radios on the machine I fly - difficult to achieve a good balance between i/c, ATC and tactical radios

Access for daily checks


It's a shame that both aircraft have been plagued by the rumour mill as they both do the job extremely well and, as has been pointed out, they are both immature aircraft which are getting better all the time.

Just a brief thumbnail - if anybody wants anymore, let me know!

[Autorotate]

Just a question for the guys flying the 902. Do you operate with the new upgraded engines or the original ones. I understand the new engines make it a dream machine. I had some comments from the Suffolk County Police in NY and they seem to think its the bees knees. Would be interested in your comments.

[inthegreen]

Try this link to MD Helicopters. You can access the performance charts (ie. IGE, OGE, OEI, etc). The chart performance is pretty impressive. Funny, I went to the Eurocopter site and they didn’t have any performance information about the 135, just dimensions and a pretty picture.


MDHC homepage (http://www.mdhelicopters.com/Rotorcraft/index.htm) :D

[inthegreen]

Actually, my apologies, on further review I found some performance information for the 135. follow this link, go to the bottom of the webpage, click on the tiny link and download the pdf file. It seems like the performance goes directly into the crapper above 6,000 lbs. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

Eurocpter Website (http://www.eurocopter.com/)

[The Nr Fairy]

inthegreen :

If I may, I'll put up the direct link to the RFMs :

MD Helicopter flight manuals (http://www.mdhelicopters.com/Pubs/PFMs/Rotorcraft%20Flight%20Manuals.htm)

[Thomas coupling]

Kipper, where do you fly the 135?

[widgeon]

from the HOGE charts EC135 at 5000 ft isa +10 ( 25 deg c) MGW= 6250 lbs Md902 = 6250

at isa +20 (35 deg c ) ec135 = 6250lbs md902 6200 lbs.

PW207 in Explorer 206B2 in Ec135.

If I am reading the charts right there is not much between the 2 , what is criteria for CAT A performance is it OEI ?.


Ec135 has lower empty weight but carries more fuel.

it is not clear in either doc what the empty weight of the helicopter includes , is any mission equipment included or is this bare bones weight ( excluding radios, autopilot seat cushions etc ). Can any of you guys give actual weights of your equipped aircraft ( including Flir , searchlight etc). You could then compare performance between two equally equipped helicopters.

[inthegreen]

Hi Widgeon,
The reference numbers you chose at 5,000 and ISA +10C on the HOGE chart do show the same weight capability since they are limited by Maximum gross weight and not aircraft performance at that altitude. I would like to mention though that your calculation of ISA +20 at 5,000 ft may be in error at 35C. Standard temperature at 5,000 ft is only 5C, therefore the figure should be 25C. Here again we have the gross weight limit line interfering, so never mind that either. I propose to go to 7,000 ft and ISA +20, which should be 21C. The 135 will do approximately 5,800 lbs with the P&W engines (which seem to give a few more lbs), the MD902 will do 6,250 lbs. That's 450 lbs. Now you have an excellent point. Maybe that extra performance is taken up in airframe or equipment weight. At this point we really don't know, but Eurocopter is listing the 135 empty weight at 3353 (1524Kg) and MD is listing theirs at 3375, a pretty nominal difference on the surface of things. You have to assume that both companies have done an equally misleading job of estimating empty weight, so they're just about even. I'd also go out on a limb and say that the installed equipment you would want on either machine would be equal too. That brings us back to the 450 lbs of difference in performance. Then again, I still may be reading the charts wrong, I usually do.

[Bearintheair]

Before our force bought their 902 we looked very carefully at the empty weights / fitted equipment in both the 902 & 135. At that time there was a considerable difference between the equipment fitted to the two aircraft with the 902 having a much higher spec (inc AP) included in the empty weight. It's fair to say that the role equipment fits should weigh much the same whichever aircraft you choose but look carefully at the standard equipment that you will need before role equipment is fitted. Both manufacturers publish a list of standard equipment fitted to their green airframes and of all the options (and weight thereof) that you willneed to add to bring the aircraft up to the spec you want.

[Skycop]

Basic airframe weight needs to be very carefully defined.

In the past one company appeared to think that engines were role equipment.....

(those that know, know what I mean ;) )

[Kipper]

Thomas Coupling

In reply to your post:

EC135 @ Central Counties & Chiltern ASUs
MD902 @ Manchester

E-mail me direct if you like.

Regards,

Kipper

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: Kipper ]

[Droopy]

Both manufacturers disappointingly seem to use takeoff power ratings for OGE hover figures. How do the two compare at max continuous ratings? [I don't want to get into the old argument of how frequently takeoff ratings can be repeated]. I've heard "not a problem" from exponents of both types, but what margin is typically in hand at MTOW? 5%? 10%?

[FLIR]

MD902 for me I'm afraid - the 135 is a big 105 with a window at the back of the tail!!!
Autorotate - PW207E 's are the business, as much power as you can use.
Kipper - the 902 WILL drop the SAS if you hack it around the sky, try a little trim in the turn and the system will beep at you less!!!!! :cool: :cool: :cool:

[widgeon]

Arent the 206B2 and the 207 virtually the same engine ?.

I actually remember seeing pictures of the BO108 prototype many years ago and it basically looked like a 105 with a fancy nose ( no fenestron though )

The EC135 became a very different machine after the merger.

[Thomas coupling]

Kipper, your e-mail was a red herring, no?

What's new from an old trout :D :D :D

[FLIR]

Psyclic,
having the SAS out is a brill idea - if you have time drop it before the aerobatics start!! our observers are not the vomit kind - sad but true (but if you try you can get them to FAB!) fill a bag!!
Did prefer the 105 for the twisty bits though.
FLIR. :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Grey Area]

I'd be grateful for any top tips on said MD 902 esp VSCS and any handling quirks. Thanks


[email protected]

[Marco]

Try Paddy Connelly at PAS or alternatively there are several police units operating the 902, in the UK, who I'm sure would be more than happy to help.

[coley chaos]

Watching the Dorset police Explorer ( notar ) out of the office window and wondering what speed the rotors are doing as they seem to rotate excedingly fast. Just a though,as it`s a beauty of a day :cool: and i`m bored! :zzz:

Regards to all.:)

[Hilico]

Reckon it's not that blindingly high rpm, more that there are five blades to create a feast of blurred visual interest.

[tbc]

From the research that I have done for the MD 902 (Explorer) Pilots Manual that I have written:

Engine output: 6000 rpm
Main rotor: 392 rpm
NOTAR: 5412 rpm

AS 355 rotor rpm is nominally 393 and the BO 105 rotor rpm is nominally 424, I believe.

[Hilico]

I'll take that as "yes" then.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Paddy, you need to get out more. I'd recommend a nice OU Summer School like the one I've just been to in Sussex :8. Only problem was this infernal 902 which kept pitching up and hovering over the campus for ages... Bloody police pilots, eh?

[No Notar]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-liheli1230,0,4668169.story?coll=ny-topstories-headlines

Choppers on the shelf


Officials say the aircraft were grounded due to cracked parts, but the manufacturer disputes the claims


BY RICK BRAND
STAFF WRITER

December 30, 2004

Two Suffolk police medevac helicopters -- purchased three years ago for just under $5 million each -- have been grounded because their financially troubled manufacturer is balking at replacing cracked parts.

Police officials say the loss of the two choppers, built by Mesa, Ariz.-based MD Helicopters, forced the county to shut down the air unit at Gabreski Airport in Westhampton earlier this month, adding 15 minutes to East End rescues.

The county's lone remaining A-Star B2 helicopter, made by Texas-based American Eurocopter, will stop operating out of Long Island MacArthur Airport on Saturday during a week or two of routine maintenance. As a result, the entire Suffolk aviation unit will be shut down for the first time in decades, according to police officials.

As an emergency replacement, state police have agreed to supply a medevac helicopter and pilot to the county for two weeks beginning this weekend.

County Executive Steve Levy blamed the problem on cracked rotor hubs and called the grounded choppers "clunkers." He said the county is investigating whether it can file a lawsuit to recoup its money.

"Helicopters that cost millions should have a shelf life of a decade or more, not just a few years," Levy said. "It looks like the state may have to pass a 'lemon law' for medevac helicopters."

The county legislature last week approved an emergency resolution to spend $3.1 million for a new helicopter. However, it cannot be delivered until at least May at the earliest due to county bid procedures. Levy said its "highly unlikely" Suffolk will buy the new aircraft from MD Helicopters.

Dale Christman, the MD Helicopters salesman who handled the Suffolk purchase, said his company is aware of the county's complaints. But Christman said MD Helicopters does not agree there are cracks in the rotor hubs.

Nevertheless, Christman said the company is trying to obtain replacement hubs for Suffolk, which will not be available from suppliers until after Jan. 1.

The county purchased the problem helicopters from MD Helicopters in 2001 for $4.9 million each. Levy said one of the MD 902 medevac helicopters has had continuing maintenance problems since he took office last January.

Police officials said the first aircraft was grounded in September when mechanics found hairline cracks on the rotor hub, which connect to the large blades that provide lift. Police officials took the second chopper off-line Nov. 22 for the same problem. "We've been sending the hubs back and forth to the company trying to get replacements," said Robert Anthony Moore, chief of department. "But they keep sending them back saying they are good."

The county then sent the cracked part to an independent laboratory, which not only confirmed the existence of two cracks that police mechanics found, but a third as well. Moore said the county has filed a complaint to the Federal Aviation Administration.

MD Helicopters, formerly part of McDonnell Douglas, has experienced continuing cash flow problems causing difficulty with suppliers, according to a report in Flight International, an aviation industry trade publication.

State police officials say they will send a medevac helicopter -- now stationed in Albany -- to operate out of Long Island MacArthur airport for the next two weeks. County police say a state trooper will pilot the aircraft.

Levy said it is an "open question" whether the problem helicopters can be used again.

And Legis. Angie Carpenter (R-West Islip), who sponsored the emergency measure for the new chopper, said, "I think it would be a good idea if the county just traded them in."

[jayteeto]

I may be wrong and will accept the criticism if I am, but haven't we had similar problems with police 902s in the UK? I know that there have been rotor head cracking problems.... they may not be related????

[HeliEng]

I have certainly known of cases with cracked Main Rotor Hubs, and I believe it is a "known issue".

From an engineering point of view if MD are saying that they are O.K, what is the problem. If the hubs are being returned as "cracked" on the paperwork I can't see what the problem is if MD assess them as being serviceable. Obviously I don't know the whole story or the details of the cracks, but that would be my initial reaction.







"Mad as a mooing fish!"

[Nigel Osborn]

Hi

Could any of you 902 drivers give me your impressions about the machine, i.e. what are the good & bad points both from a pilot's point of view & an engineers if possible.
If you don't like the 902, what machine would you prefer to fly?
Please email me if you don't want to bore the other ppruners.

Many thanks.

[HeliEng]

From an engineers point of view, the aircraft is great. There are few crappy jobs, but aren't there always!! ;)

The biggy is the time spent AOG for spares. MD, going though the troubles that they are, are unable to provide spares, and at present, no-one knows of a solution in the pipeline.

All the guys I've spoken to that fly them, have only praise, except when it is AOG!!!






"Mad as a mooing fish!"

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Thud's "I've-got-an-opinion-on-everything" perspective:

I flew the 902 for 2 years, and now operate the 135. Pilot points can be summed up as follows:

902 has good cockpit layout, with no roof-panel switches and logical positioning for just about everything. Good, simple FADEC and manual engine control. Rotor brake works, and can be used without fear of bits coming off. As my instructor was wont to say, "the pilot was definitely in the office when the 902 cockpit was being designed" - Eurocopter probably sent theirs on leave. Large cabin with ample headroom & good access.

902 yaw control is not as good as the 135; easy to reach torque limits with pedal input, and downwind hover/ backwards orbit are often a handful. AFCS/ AP can be a hindrance in police work, but lovely for point-to-point stuff. Only one AHRS, a subject the UK CAA get very excited about for single pilot IFR. I can see their point - obviously I'm not going to notice deviations from my intended flight path as I sit there reading the newspaper or eating my breakfast during an IFR transit :cool: :hmm:

Not qualified to talk from an engineers perspective (there are some in the company who'd query my ability to talk from a pilot's, come to think of it...). The 135 is definitely more solidly-built; cockpit windows and doors tend to stay in their intended position (ie on the aircraft) with the Eurocopter offering. Access is definitely better on the 135 - the 902's flimsy panels all have to be removed to work on the engine, and those Camlock fasteners on the 902 often used to give me opportunity to practice my Anglo-Saxon.

Despite Eurocopters claims, I can vouch that the 902 is the quieter of the 2 aircraft when they're operating overhead. Neither is as loud as tail-rotor aircraft though.

Overall? I'd love to go back to the 902 from a pilot's point of view, but the spares/MDHI situation sounds as if it's reached PNR.

[Bearintheair]

I've been flying the 902 in the Police & HEMS role for 6 years now, and love it to bits. From a pilots point of view it does exactly what it says on the box - easily.

The major problem is not the aircraft but the support from MDH. Their problems are well known and the cashflow difficulties really hit in two areas. Their ability to quickly develop fixes to known and ongoing technical problems by developing modded parts, and their ability to hold an adequate stock of spares.

If, and its a big if, the much promised refinancing of MDH happens and they support the aircraft properly then it should go from strength to strength.

Keep an eye out for announcements from MDH at HAI - maybe !!!!

[Nigel Osborn]

Many thanks for these replies & the private ones.
The overall opinion is that the 902 is a great machine with lousy back up & support. Unfortunately operators do need good back up, so lets hope this improves.

[Thomas coupling]

I thought once the MD900 series was sold off, the MD bit was kept by Mesa (McD).
The new owners from Holland (is it?)...don't they supply the spares now? If so..aren't they the fly in the ointment?

Today, one isn't allowed to call it the MD902, I've been told?

[HeloEagle]

When Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, they did not want to keep the civilan helicopter line, so they sold it to RDM Holdings, the Dutch company of which you speak. Boeing took over the Apache, but RDM holdings created MD Helicopters. It is not McDonnell Douglas and more, just MD. They kept the name MD for continuity, but they are not associated with the old McDonnell Douglas or Boeing. You are also correct in the fact that RDM has ran MD into the ground with lack of support, but all products are still refered to as MD's, i.e. the MD500 series, the MD600, the MD900 series, etc. Hope that clears it up for you. The ironic thing about the whole deal is that the U.S. Federal Trade Commission had no problem with Boeing buying up McDonnell Douglas and creating one of the world's largest defense contractors, but when Bell helicopter wanted to buy the MD civilian helicopter line from Boeing, the FTC said no way, it would create a monopoly. All it really did was weaken Bell, MD, and help Eurocopter gain more U.S. market share.

[Heliport]

From the Yorkshire Post US spare parts crisis could ground Yorkshire's police helicopter fleet

POLICE helicopters used by forces across this region are at risk of being grounded because the American manufacturer is in trouble and struggling to supply spares.

Helicopters are regarded as one of the most valuable tools police now have and the situation could create a huge embarrassment for senior officers who have spent about £3.7m on each aircraft.

About half of England's police forces operate the Explorer aircraft, built by Arizona-based MD Helicopters, including South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Humberside and Greater Manchester.

South Yorkshire's Explorer, unveiled in December 2003, has regularly been out of action, including one recent two-week stretch, because of a lack of spares.
Humberside and West Yorkshire police denied the situation had affected them.

MD Helicopters builds the Explorer specifically for police use. However the company has been unable to source spares from its suppliers, according to Bryn Elliott, editor of Police Aviation News.
The situation is so serious Dutch police have scrapped an order for eight aircraft.

South Yorkshire Police accept their aircraft has been in service for only 75 per cent of the time over the last three months, compared to an expected availability of 95 per cent.

Mr Elliott said that nationally, forces were experiencing availability between 50 and 80 per cent, way below the record for the other obvious choice of police aircraft – the Eurocopter – which has an availability record of about 98 per cent.

In South Yorkshire senior officers are trying to minimise problems by buying a stockpile of parts. But although they have set aside a six-figure sum to buy them, they are struggling to spend the money because items are impossible to source.
South Yorkshire Police Insp Clive Marsden said: "I am trying to negate events outside my control. The public pay for this and expect to see it in the air. It is a very, very important part of the whole policing picture.
"I cannot think of a single policing activity which would not be enhanced by the use of air support. MD is going through a period of change and that appears to be affecting parts supply."

British supplier of MD police helicopters is Police Aviation Services in Gloucestershire and a spokesman admitted MD had experienced parts supply problems.
They had now turned their primary attention from producing aircraft to supplying parts for the existing fleet and he insisted that the situation was improving.
"The South Yorkshire aircraft has been down for longer than any of us would like," he admitted.

[Eurobolkow]

Whilst it is clear from various sources that there is a problem with supportability of the current Explorer fleet, as usual these types of reports tend to get facts wrong and make misleading statements and conclusions.

As far as I am aware the Dutch Police cancelled their order as a result of a long delayed performance increase and certification thereof.

What are the 50 to 80 % availability statements based on? I doubt that any force would accept operating an aircraft which is on average only available every second operational duty day that it is required!!!

And finally we have 'the obvious choice' which apparently is 'the Eurocopter' (EC225 perhaps??) but it would be coming from that source!!!

All in all more than a hint of a staged report by 'Le Bleu'

[What Limits]

Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!

Police aircraft are often grounded due to role equipment problems as well. The "recent two week stretch" (of downtime) could have been due to the upgrade of the Police Tactical Radio system, something that all police units in this country are looking forward to in the next year or two or three.

The MD900 is a much better aircraft than the EC135 in all respects. Sadly customers are being discouraged by the spares situation. Having said that, the supply of Eurocopter spares is not always as good as it could be.

[widgeon]

Hmmm remind me what happened to the technically superior video recording technology that Sony developed .
Unfortunately it is not always the best that survive.

[PANews]

Unfortunately the report - not wholly accurately reported in that anything I said that was positive about the aircraft [as opposed to relating to the spares] was left out of the 10 minute conversation I had with the Yorkshire Post last week - was instigated by Mr Whitehouse.

It seems he was aware of the grounding from local sources before calling me. I guess they sort of missed the Explorer attending calls perhaps? But by then I think it was a story pretty much on the grapevine a week ago.

My information is that it was nothing to do with role equipment or radio upgrades but just down to the problem that we all know is there. Spares availability.

What Limits. If you you had read the Yorkshire Post article properly before going off in a blinding rage just because I was quoted you may have noticed that the South Yorkshire UEO was also quoted at greater length and it seemed to me he was not disputing any technical grounding and was less than pleased with the situation. Check your facts. Accuracy might help.


Eurobolkow accurately noted that the quote about the Dutch Police cancelling their order was as a result of a long delayed performance increase and certification thereof rather than the suggested spares problem. I do not know the Post author but I would guess that next week he will be reporting on a Womens Institute meeting... a traffic court case etc... so he at least is allowed to misunderstand the odd bit on this article.

The same general defence of his article can be applied to the thrust of the down time numbers and the 'Eurocopter' option .... this is a very concerned Yorkshire Post not Flight International.

What Limits .... 'Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!'.......... check your facts on both accusations. Accuracy might help.

B

[Notar fan]

Don't think I have ever seen Bryn Elliot say anything good about the MD 900. This may or may not have anything to do with the fact that Eurocopter are big advertisers in PA News!

FINALLY!! Someone else agrees with me. :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[jayteeto]

"The MD900 is a much better aircraft than the EC135 in all respects. Sadly customers are being discouraged by the spares situation."

Yawn, what have the romans ever done for us?? (watch Life of Brian for full explanation) All respects means ALL respects, so the spares situation is pretty important to a unit like ours with only one helicopter. 135 operators think that their heli is better than the MD900 series, so what you mean is: 'In my opinion' the 900 is better........

This argument has been done over and over, again and again. I like Eurocopter products with over 4000hrs on Gazelle/Puma/350/355/135. I have sampled the american products available and find them just as capable, but not as simple in design and operation. We generally get spares quite quickly, with the odd glitch. We got a MRGB in 2 days, and it wasn't cracked.........

[PANews]

'FINALLY!! Someone else agrees with me.'

Believe me Notar fan you never were alone...


But deciding that one lone journo was consistently saying nasty, unpalatable, things [that he thinks were regularly close to the truth] did not alter the situation did it?

Perhaps you should change tack and now claim that the whole situation was actually created by my news reports! I stopped parts deliveries, I emptied the bank I told the KLPD to cancel .... I made Eurocopter what they are ...... I can destroy aircraft companies .....

Now that degree of power would be SENSATIONAL!

If it were true.

Meanwhile I will report what I see. It is for you to accept or reject...

You do not believe everything you read in your daily paper do you? Surely helicopters are not bought on the strength of a Flight International test report or a free offer on a breakfast cereal packet .... are they?

Well may be they are.

[What Limits]

PANews, I read PA News regularly and I do not recall seeing anything good about the MD900. Please put me right. I also recall seeing many adverts for McAlpine Helicopters which I believe to be 49% owned by Eurocopter. Please put me right on this as well.

Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story". I do not dispute any of the facts of this story but as soon as some journo or politician starts spewing out statistics, I know (as a former student of statistics) that they are only used to support an agenda.

As a journo, does it hurt when you use the words "facts" and "accuracy" in the same paragraph?

BTW, helicopters are often purchased by people who believe what they read / see/ hear in papers / tv / pprune / cereal packets.

Nothing personal my friend, but I don't like journos.

[Head Turner]

I don't like jounos either, but they are a fact of life, but unlike many diseases there are no known cures so we have to live with this curse.

Back to the thread:- I also find the MD900 concept very good and a superb logical approach to helicopter flight operations in all respects except that the range is pretty poor.
I just hope that MD can get the funding to put it's self back up where it belongs amongst the top boys.

[Buitenzorg]

Having translated the article announcing the cancellation of the Dutch police order for Explorerers, I remember that while the delay in certification allowed the Dutch authorities to cancel without having to pay a cancellation fee, and indeed to demand a non-performance fine off MD Helicopters, the main reason stated as to why they didn't want to wait any longer was that on a visit to the MD factory, they'd observed work had all but halted, casting severe doubts on MD's ability to deliver the balance of the order (the other 7 ships) and most certainly on future support of the fleet. The impression I got from the article was that they would have waited a little longer for the certification if the future of MD had not appeared so insecure.

[ppheli]

Buitenzorg > yes, and particularly as MD is owned by a Dutch company. But MD _did_ sign a contract committing themselves to a greater MTOW than turned out to be feasible, even with a boom extension. If they ran out of money, then why would the bank (or funding source) forsake them if they had an order for 8 in the bag which could see them back on the road to recovery? It points to the MTOW being impossible to achieve

Where now for MD? Obvious severe financial pressure, and the only likely buyers of the company will be interested in the 500E/530F line for the Little Bird contract. Note the NOTARs though, sales oif which have not exactly been spectacular, with none of the 520N, 600N or Explorer lines yet delivering 100 airframes to customers. Put that alongside their competitors sales figures and you have a company in serious decline.

So, it's no surprise that there are stories like
- Sussex Police (UK) down for 5 weeks (14 months back - 2nd Dec 03 to 6th Jan 04) awaiting spares (not the Tactical Radio thing)
- Suffolk County PD (New York State, US) - grounded both aircraft late 2004 due to spares difficulties, and County have approved money to buy something different.
- a US EMS program have paid $1M+ deposit and aircraft stuck on the line - they fear they will never see their money or aircraft. Same program has another Explorer leased from Japan in mothballs due to lack of spares
- In Nov-04. Kaman announced a $21M write-off of investments in contracts with MD
- the MD Sales/Marketing Director (one time Air Hanson ops department) now on "garden leave"

The everyday situation now is spares availability. This seems to have been caused by financial difficulties, which in turn must have had something to do with lack of sales. For products of roughly similar cost (comparing the EC135 which I believe is slightly cheaper, and the 109E at slightly more), the implication has got to be that the product is less sale-able than its competitors.

Note, I am not saying it is less ABLE, just less SALE-ABLE. Is it possible for the NOTAR products of MD to exit this spiral?

MD600 Driver, what's your take on this?

NOTAR Fan, have you changed your defiinition of "fan" from supporter (like soccer) to air-pump yet, or were you always the latter?

[Thomas coupling]

What Limits:

Let's see, so far we have comments like:

Poor logistics.
Cancelling customers.
MD of MD on gardening leave?
Poor endurance.
No future proof weight increases.
Cracked MGB's
Poor heading hold out of wind.
Poor crew ergonomics.
Can only fly 1 x patient.

All the above taken from previous posts every time someone talks about MD900's.

I suspect your casual comment: better in ALL respects...just flew out of the window:yuk:

Ask yourself this question:

If you knew then, what you know now, would you go out and buy another 902?
{Cambridge beign the exception:eek: :eek: :eek: ]
QED

[PANews]

I guess I am tiring of this already...

OK What Limits...

Thanks for reading PA News regularly you are not alone. And I guess your failure to see anything good within its pages about the MD900 is not because it does not exist, more that it is pretty well overwhelmed. Perhaps you can recall when there was good news about MD and the Explorer? I cannot say I can since the KLPD and Cambridge orders. Its sad but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good barney!

And I guess this is what its all about. Colin Whicher [where is he these days?] once said to me that no one else [in the journo industry] is interested in what I wrote and in particular what I wrote about the Explorer.

So five years on.... whats changed? Now everyone is writing about it... perhaps the real journos have been asleep .... along with a few others I guess. If what I wrote was crap why are we here now talking about the danger of the demise of MD and excusing the problem by blaming it on a passing journo?

Bit late waking up now!

You may recall seeing many adverts for McAlpine Helicopters but do you remember the ones for MD? PAS? PWC? FSI? BMS? An advert is an advert and provides NO special favours. I guess that is why you will not find an MD, PWC or Bell advert now!

And I think you are VERY WRONG in your memory again about your percentages on having Macs owned 49% by Eurocopter. It is a much lower figure. Which makes the earlier assertion that 'Eurocopter' advertise with PAN absolute rubbish. Macs used to advertise in PAN. FSI used to advertise in PAN. Things move on.

Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

In which case its down to you to point out the errors. I was brought up as a cop over 30 years so equally 'hated' journos, now I changed hats through choice the old habit of 'telling the truth, the whole truth....' is pretty difficult to duck. But there are precious few facts flowing from you. Insinuation is not truth.

I can recall the absolute furore from the 'Explorer camp' when I reported the fact that some EC135 units had released figures that they were experiencing availability of 98%. Not my numbers. They were provided by the units concerned. That was a time when rumour suggested that some Explorer units were returning 74%. Around the time when Sussex were twiddling their thumbs for a month. But although I asked no-one replied to a direct question what the figure was.

Again around the same time there was a round robin E-mail making all sorts of accusations about my reporting of the unpalatable - that only died away when I suggested I had perhaps better report the public domain story about Dorset going cap-in-hand to ask the Police Authority for another £120,000 to tide them over after a shortfall in the unexpected spares fund....

At times it seems that there have been just too many bad stories to use. So [aside from on the Dorset Police web site] that stayed off the public agenda.

MD returned a 1% market share last year, so what you are saying is that they are far more important than Eurocopter - the choice of a significant WORLD majority - and that I should report only the bad bits about Eurocopter and the good bits about MD? Oh and maybe a bit about fixed wing to keep me busy?

EC has broad shoulders. There have been digs about their products, but not a murmur.

So PAN should shrink from 28 pages to just 5?

You should be a journo! Have you no shame!

'BTW, helicopters are often purchased by people who believe what they read / see/ hear in papers / tv / pprune / cereal packets.'

More fool them then. Perhaps they should spend more time in their own product research and believe less in the saleman. You know what they say about Estate Agents, car salesmen and the like.... We have choices, and if we make an errors we ought to have broad enough shoulders to carry them.


Only an opinion of course!

Phew!

PS. While I was writing this I had a very supportive phone call .... it seems not everyone in Explorer land has their head in the sand..... whats out is out ......... and about time too?

PPS. The South Yorkshire Explorer was not flying last night. That makes a month. Is that good for public safety? Enough is enough.

[Thomas coupling]

PANews: well said, that man.
The proof of the pudding's in the reading.

The 902 is a very capable aircraft - of that there is no doubt.

The problem is that there are MORE capable aircraft out there with the additional back-up to support their product.

Which is more than anyone can say about the MD902.

Watch what happens when current police a/c are due for replacement, ask ANY police operator what products they are looking at to replace their existing one?

It must be very difficult fighting a constant rear guard action with your bosses when you know you've bought a bentley but can't drive it because there are no spare parts?????

Wake up and smell the coffee what limits.

[Phoenix Rising]

What Limits and Head Turner:

Just because you dont like journos would appreciate you not putting us all in the same catergory.

For your info I have spent the last six years publishing my civil helo trade mag and have ALWAYS given a fair and accurate report in each of the stories we have published. Classic example we did a feature on the piss poor customer service that Turbomeca had, AND they were an advertiser in the magazine.

I have, and always will, promote the positive sides of this industry as it needs all the positive PR it can get, BUT being classed in the same catergory as your local Daily Mirror journo is something I do take offence to.

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

[jayteeto]

Further to my last post, we are suffering servicability problems at the moment with our 2600hr EC135. This includes a MRGB and an engine, plus various autopilot and camera problems in the last 2 months. This happens in the real world and I am sure MD products are just as reliable as ours. The difference is that we got a gearbox in 2 days, an engine the same day, actuator in one day. We are grumbling because a cockpit display is taking a whole 3 days due to a software fill being required!! Spares and maintainance back-up cannot be brushed over by stating your product is better. Imagine a car manufacturer doing that, Clarkson would screen a one hour special!! The coffee smells lovely here.......

[Head Turner]

'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story' as quoted above and before.
Therefore the fact that one journo is different to another should be discarded to fuel the flames of discussion.
So what's the truth in the rumour that the Brazillian airplane maker is looking at MD.

[metric]

Little seen on this subject is entirely objective but even the most enthusiastic MD902 operators in the UK have to admit that there have been major issues on the supply of key spares including main rotor gearboxes.

The current MDHI company is nothing to do with Boeing or MD and has little to fall-back on when commercial and technical issues arise. I suspect that had MD (the real MD) or latterly Boeing retained control of the programme, things might have been different and the logistic and developmental issues of the MD902 may have been squared away...but this is not what has happened. One wonders why Boeing sold the company if the risk perception of the product was anything other than as a low reward/high cost civil helicopter programme.

The Dutch Police contract is difficult for both the Dutch Police and for MDHI. The police made a call and as it turns out made the wrong one (we all do that from time to time)...on the basis that the MD902 has not been able to deliver what was promised. MDHI made valiant technical and commercial efforts to deliver but ultimately the MD902 could not deliver. I might take a view that nothing was going to deliver what was demanded of the MD902 with the Dutch role equipment in the sub 3000 kg category. Gravity does not change and the laws of aerodynamics have been soundly tested.

So I would say, my opinion of course, Bravo for trying MDHI, bad-luck Dutch Police - do not always believe what salesman promise even if that is what you want to hear, and good news for UK based MD902 operators who may see some improvement in support now attention at MDHI is on other things.

Incidently, if you think objectivity is short in this, I also take the view that threatening to sue, or indeed sueing your potential customers when you loose a competition is not the wisest thing to do. If the customer eventually needs you, in these circumstances it is difficult for them to say 'hi' a year or two later on. Mnaufacturers need to learn that customers are also in the market for the long-haul and have memories of how they are treated.

Just some thoughts.

[quichemech]

Valid point, but did not most of the lack of back up start with boeing who did no development of what is basically not a bad product. The machine has improved dramatically over the last few years. The Dutch Police contract has probably caused more problems than it has solved with the diversion of resources that could have been used else where, just my opinion of course, but as said earlier, the amount of equipement they expected to hang off the machine was incredable. The ideal aircraft was something in the 365B3/76C+ class if not a 332

[Hilife]

The MD902 competes well in the ALE/EMS market and for good reason. But uncertainty over the future of MDHI must surely be the biggest cause of poor sales over the last few years and the cancellation of eight 902’s by KLPD earlier this month can only add to their cash flow problems.

Money alone may not save them and in the absence of any success in the ARH/LUH competitions, the acquisition of MDHI by a well respected and well funded helicopter manufacturer may be the only viable future.

Just a thought…..

[PANews]

Potentially the biggest worry faced by MDHI is the uncertainty of the Boeing money.

Although lauded as the answer to most of their problems the little I have noted on the military programme [Little Bird] suggests at least the danger of Boeing ceasing payment/support as soon as the result of the competition being announced if that result finds against the Little Bird. I know that these programme decisions keep slipping but the last decision date I am aware of was June 2005, just around the corner. Two months.

In all cases I suspect that wherever the final financial solution comes from [Little Bird/China/Brazil etc] it will be a year before any end user relief is visible [in terms of spares freely available]. And then of course there is the little matter of catching up with all that difficult to fund product development.

We are three months on from each of the rescue plans that failed to appear on cue ... the Sikorsky, Bell, China options .... and time is pressing. Kaman needs to be sweetened and parts production [again a year] restarted to get Explorer back on line.

Even the 'acquisition of MDHI by a well respected and well funded helicopter manufacturer' is likely to face a year in the relative doldrums. In a way it is potentially fortunate that delivery lead times in the industry are of a similar order [12 months+].

In the meanwhile operators are having to make decisions that may lead to a section of the current fleet [under 100] being parted out to support the rest. Recent accidents may be having a small positive effect on supply and demand on the type. Such pressures will inevitable lead to some operators failing to even consider operating the Explorer in future if only on the grounds that an existing fleet may not be able to grow using a common type.

[Phoenix Rising]

It wont matter if a company sinks a trillon dollars into MD, as long as the same management is there it wont make any difference.

I heard throught the grapevine that one of the major reasons the Sikorsky deal fell over was because the owner in Holland wanted Schaken there no matter what and that was part of the deal. Right or wrong thats the rumour.

PR

[Thomas coupling]

IF the company goes to the wall, and there are no takers..what happens to the existing users?
Say another year for the company to fold, a year after that for operators to grind to a halt without spares.
Where will the Home Office find the money to bail them out. Could a worthy competitor cope with demand for trickle feeding 11 operators (in the Uk alone) with replacement aircraft :eek:

Very brave decision by Cambridge, to buy a new 902 NOW:confused:

[mctavish]

Maybe Cambs know something that the rest of us don't - if not then it was a 'brave' decision

[quichemech]

The spares situation on the whole is improving, AOG spares have been arriving, granted not in a 24/48 hour period but they have been arriving none the less, with regard to MRGBs, the boxes are being upgraded by Kawazaki, not minor mods, quite major ones, and the boxes are doing a lot better with life limits going up towards what they should be.

South yorks may not have flown for the last month but you may find that is due to it having been on annual and periodic inspections, checks that will keep it down for at least 3 weeks. They are being provided with spares as soon as reasonably possible by both MDHI and PAS.

The uncertain future is not good but constant comment by people who have their own adgenda doesn't help those of us who rely on the 902 to pay the bills.

[jayteeto]

3 weeks for an annual?? Good God Why???? As a 135 pilot, I have no desire to put 902s out of business and affect liveleyhoods. We are not rivals, we are in the same job against the same criminals. However, if something isn't working properly, you cannot just ignore it because it might upset people. You are paying a LOT of good TAXPAYERS money for these aircraft. I don't want you all to have a 135, I want the 902s to work properly with the backup we all deserve. PLEASE don't take the comments personally, as fellow pilots we want you to be happy as well.....

[Thomas coupling]

concur jayteeto.

When the police buy their aircraft, I often wonder how many of them seek 'independent' advice on which a/c to put on the short list. Ideally that would be the CP's remit if he was directly employed.
I suspect, many forces went into this business being driven by bean counters who havent got the faintest idea what they are up against.
I can think of atleast 3 forces who have purchased helicopters because the UEO thinks he knows best or has a personal prejudice against either a company or a helo, without an iota of evidence to back his views up.
They're paying dearly for it now with downtime alone, never mind what the future holds....

Some people never learn from others do they..

I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from...sorry...that's too logical, I know.:ooh:

[EjectEject]

My thoughts exactly re 3 weeks for annual!!! 135 users are now experiencing 5 days for 400, 7-9 for 800. With the prospect of 50 and 100 hr inspections to be removed, the 135 remains available more and more.

Questions are and should be asked as to why the 902 spends more time off-line due to lack of parts, when your using TAXPAYERS money. The CC, more importantly the bobby on the ground in any Police force expects their aircraft available to provide air support. When they see theirs is not, lots of times, for long periods, questions start to get asked as to why. AND - can't we have one of those types our neighbours are using, they are operaional most of the time. That is begining to happen.

I know of one force that wants to get rid of their 902, not because its not a capable aircraft - because it is, but because its just not available for the force to use. And thats not due to role equipment faults, as we all have those, but due to the aicraft spares situation.

[PANews]

'I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from..'

The HO and PITO did try that logical step with a document that listed all the salient numbers ... it was not the first of its kind, such a deal started in the 1980s, but there were complaints over the new document that covered all the new generation helicopters [fixed wing were dealt with in a separate document]. It was not Conkin & Dekker but it went a way towards meeting a need.

Unfortunately, although given numerous extensions, one company was unable to submit the flight test numbers in time and complained... as a result the HO walked away from the idea ... although an initial version appeared it showed big gaps for that one type [presumably for filling in later when the numbers were available!] and they quickly dropped the document so as not to offend! They never tried again.

So, with the lack of information, who is offended now?

Gearboxes
I am unsure of the exact situation currently but I believe that because of the spares supply situation gearboxes were being overhauled in Mesa rather that being sent to Kawasaki or offered as a straight swop. Part of the reason for that is/was the credit situation between MD and Kawasaki. The result is that a major gearbox fault can lead to the operator waiting for the gearbox to travel to Mesa, be rebuilt and returned. It all takes time. Maybe someone can update that information.

There are Explorer's out there with original and long time in service gearboxes but I am aware that at least one operator likens the situation to a cat on a hot tin roof....

Will it or won't it ....

[Cyclic Hotline]

This is just the same old crap we used to put up with when I had the misfortune to operate MD 500D's. I suspect that for the majority of you operating the 900/902 it is your first experience with this manufacturer.

The current problems seem to be even worse, but the basic problems have existed throughout the history of the company whether it was MDHS, Boeing or MD Helicopters. Terrible product support and parts availability. Problems that go on for decades and through a vast number of modifications, redesigns and poorly thought out fixes. A massive collections of AD's. And yes, annuals that take longer than any other helicopter that has ever been built!

I wouldn't operate any of their products if you gave it to me for free. The happiest day in my career was the day the last of the little POS flew away to become someone elses nightmare.

[Notar fan]

I am unsure of the exact situation currently but I believe that because of the spares supply situation gearboxes were being overhauled in Mesa rather that being sent to Kawasaki or offered as a straight swop. Part of the reason for that is/was the credit situation between MD and Kawasaki. The result is that a major gearbox fault can lead to the operator waiting for the gearbox to travel to Mesa, be rebuilt and returned. It all takes time. Maybe someone can update that information.

PANews, I suggest that if you are "unsure of the exact situation" that you keep your mouth shut!! Once again you post bogus, misleading information. Main Rotor Gearboxes were never overhauled in Mesa, and, were always offered as an exchange item. All gearboxes are overhauled at Kawasaki.

With the highest density of 900s in your area, there is absolutely no reason for you to be posting vindictive, incorrect rubbish. Go talk to the operators, before you post such c**p.

[zorab64]

JTT & others - how right that the taxpayers & ground troops should be questioning the availability of their local machine. As a 135 jockey, I 'm also keen to see the 902 cut it with the rest in the same role - in terms of capability, my 902 investigations came out fairly even (good view, clever IIDS, noise sig etc) but I'm pleased we're now a lot more "S" than we might have been!

More importantly, TC hits the nail on the head (not for the first time) re "independant advice" when procuring Police aircraft. The "system" means that individual forces & UEOs often have neither the knowledge, ability, humility or remit to accept advice, or collaborate with each other, when buying aircraft. The framework allows companies to sell what they want to sell, not what the customer wants. Get it all under one (HO & PITO) roof & I reckon you'd get a better product at the end of the day. . . I know how I'd like to improve my 135 payload by 100+ kgs, tomorrow!

P.S. Again TC, concur with your "personal prejudice" comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a recent decision (as yet un-delivered & already delayed) now that a "person" has moved on!;)

[PANews]

Thank you for your precise [insider] clarification of the situation relating to the long gestation period surrounding gearbox changes on MD Explorer's Notar Fan.

I think you answered the question quite clearly with your post.

As to whether asking a question [I never stated at any point that I knew the whole answer] is attempting to mislead is debatable.

I have pointed out before that asking a question [yes, even here] is never the same as going into print with misleading information in the wider world.

As the world of MD [the old guard and the new] continues to be like some secret society at times it is often difficult to get any answer never mind the correct one. Unfortunately in the main the high density of MD Explorer operators in these parts tend to hold similar views and run a tight ship that ensures that only rumours leak out.

The Yorkshire Post article will, I suspect get everyone involved in aircraft selection checking their spec notes, 'hunkering down' and looking over theirs shoulders........ for a while anyway.

Going back a few steps it seems that it OK for anyone but a journo to pose an apparent scenario and ask a question on Pprune.... But I should not be surprised, that is the reaction I have received to most questions posed towards Mesa in the last 8 years. For the record, my statement was based on information circulating [but never published at the time] at the time Sussex were stuck on the ground for a month 'awaiting a gearbox' ...... Perhaps it was erronous, if so better out than in perhaps?

Perhaps in the world inhabited by some the lengthy Sussex grounding was also a figment of someones imagination.

Still, thats another one clarified! I think.

[EjectEject]

Guess What - West Mids 902 is off line - Again. MRG required I believe.

[crouch&hold]

I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest as it's rather close to home...... I have resisted posting anything so far but I think the record should be set straight about a few misunderstandings:

1. FACT - The South Yorkshire a/c has been on the deck due to component failure and the subsequent problem in obtaining a replacement part.

2. FACT - It has nothing to do with an annual or other scheduled engineering.

I personally do not have 'prejudices' against any type as the main objective is to provide a service to the public. If a balloon did the job as well then I would operate a balloon.

As for the Yorkshire Post article.. a reporter just doing his job and nothing to do with a smear campaign or whisperings in his ear.

I guess each operator has their own experience when it comes to parts availability. Mine has been.......frustrating.

I remain an optimist and do see some positives although I am realistic enough to realise there will be further bumps in the road ahead but such is life.

But for now....availability is but a few spanner turns away so must dash.

[metric]

Once a helicopter ( or car - think about it) becomes stigmatised for whatever reasons, the value of pre-owned examples will suffer. The UK reader only has to think of the one remaining UK owned (at the moment) car manufacturer. However you polish the car - sorry - helicopter - the stigma will stick. The car - sorry helicopter - might be the greatest thing since toast and have bags of potential but its manufacturer's suppliers are simply no longer interested...they have moved on.

So you own an MD902 and would rather not. What is the best exit strategy? Well...I guess you extoll the virtues of the bird, tell the customer the wonderful job it does for you but also add that your role has changed....you need a bigger aircraft to embrace 'homeland' security or somesuch and just hope that your politicians will agree.

If it all goes the way it loos as though it will go, you will see a small specialised group of companies or even one company doing what Erikson did to the Skycrane...and what a job that was!

Its really difficult to sell something where everyone knows there is an issue but cannot admit it as doing so will dig an even bigger hole to the one they are already standing in. I've seen it in the corporate market where individuals stand to loose their own money if they pass ships on too quickly. So if you operate an MD902 with the police, take comfort that a least you personally do not bear the ownership costs - unless you are a community charge payer.

Another point you might dwell on. The MD902 was developed by a risk-sharing group of 20 or so in the Blue-Team. So what do they think (those who are left)? Kaman's position is fairly easy to read from PLC-type reports but what about Kawasaki who make the gearbox....and all the other suppliers.

So....get writing your new business case for that bigger helicopter with new capability and get those celebrated brokers out there to earn their not inconsiderable commission and sell the beastie before you get caught in the rush.:ok:

PS...Someone earlier said "smell the coffee...." That light at the end of the tunnel...its a train.....

[diethelm]

It should be no surprise to anyone in the industry that MD lacks the liquidity to support its products. It is common knowledge that the subcontractors which make the parts to support MD products are not being paid on a timely basis. Further, the basis for this statement is not only supported by the marketplace, but have been supported by public filings with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission by Kaman. These are public documents.

With respect to 500's, there are a few parts which are difficult to attain (heads, verticals, sheet metal) but the balance of parts can be found in the marketplace as there are over 3,000 still flying and over 5,000 manufactured and a volume of aircraft necessary to support PMA. With respect to 520's, 600's and 900's, it is clearly much worse as there is not the volume of aircraft to pick parts from, nor is there necessary volume to justify PMA. Although some people, like Cyclic Hotline, beleive 500's are junk, I personally like them.

New parts in sustainable volumes will not be available from MD to the civilian market until MD is recapitalized which will in my opinion take a bankruptcy. Absent unsecured creditors forcing an involuntary bankruptcy (costs about $1,000), it is unlikely MD will file on its own.

All operators of MD products should accept the situation and plan accordingly.

[QTG]

How about the pilot's eye view then? I fly both 902 and 135 regularly and therefore feel capable of an objective view.

1) There is no doubt in my mind that the 135 cockpit was designed by a designer when the pilot was off sick - just look at the number of knobs and switches, and more importantly, their locations (eg the altimeter setting knob).

2) In controlled training conditions, I have yet to see anyone lose less than 10% Nr when counted down into a practice double engine failure. I would suggest that the situation would be impossible to recover from were it to happen for real. By the way, the landing light goes out as well, and where's the switch to get it back (the shed bus switch)? You guessed it - right at the back of the overhead switch panel.

3) Management of the EFIS and autopilot is done exclusively from the centre console and not from within the pilot's natural field of view - not very sensible for a single pilot IFR aircraft.

4) The 902 cabin is bigger, but overall length is less.

5) You can't argue about the 902's high tail and lack of rotating components at the back - a huge plus for HEMS ops.

You will be gathering that I'm not a huge fan of the 135, and you'd be right, though it has to be said that, when set up to best effect, the toys are more advanced than the 902. However, from a pilot's point of view the 902 is so much more intuitive and simpler to manage - 19 "silver switches" compared to 33 in the 135 (trust me - I've just counted them), and all AP and EFIS controls on the instrument panel.

Having said all that, there are weaknesses. The 135 is much happier hovering out of wind, and if it all went pear shaped down the back end, I think I'd probably find it easier to get a 135 back on the ground in one piece. Also, the T2 "Training mode" is sensational. Finally, and significantly for a man of my advanced years, when the 902 design team were doing "getting in and out of the front", the pilot was on a day off, and the result is catatrophic.

At the end of the day the industry needs competition, and if MD could find a way to put its troubles behind it, ECD would have that in spades.

[jayteeto]

Its good to see some positive press for the 902, I would love the AP switches to be in a better position on the 135. I think the crux of the argument is still: Better to have 33 switches I can use, than 19 in the hangar. What about a merger between EC and MD to get the best of both worlds?????;)

[Geoffersincornwall]

jayteeto

That would just confine the 902 to the dustbin as they would kill it off rather than see it compete with one of their product lines. Let's just hope that Colin and his team can still keep selling them whilst somebody stumps up the dosh to keep it solvent.

[zorab64]

In controlled training conditions, I have yet to see anyone lose less than 10% Nr when counted down into a practice double engine failure. I would suggest that the situation would be impossible to recover from were it to happen for real.
There was a thread running a month or more ago in which Nick Lappos (I believe) very capably explained the whys & wherefores of designing twin engined helicopter rotor systems that are maximised for "powered" operations, rather than single engined machines that tend to make more compromises towards power-off flight. I would not chose a twin engined helicopter based on its double engine failure characteristics, nor do I fly with thought of such infrequent failures on a daily basis - yes, of course the mind becomes more focussed in the event of any emergency or system failure.

I would concur, however, with the switch comments - how, especially, it was decided to put the Cat A switch so far from single pilot reach, I cannot fathom. (For those unaware, this requires hand off collective at 55kts / 100' or so, on take off or approach, unlock seat harness, reach forward, make switch, re-sit & continue). Why one of the unused buttons, on either collective or cyclic, can't be used is anyone's guess!

There may be plenty of things to improve on the 135, but as JTT says, better be able to use working bits, in a fiddly fashion, than just fiddle with a few bust bits in a hangar queen!

[metric]

I've tried to be very balanced about my comments on MD and I could not agree more with those who say we need the competition out there. The MD 902 forced ECto get the EC135T2 to where it is now in the UK, and I think the Uk users should be pleased about that.

MD sold off their Civil helicopter programme and then joined Boeing. Why? There is not much money in developing and selling new helicopters in today's litigous and highly certified and controlled World. Ask Eurocopter for a special MOD these days and see what reply you get there.

The money is not in making civil helicopters and it remains a mystery (I won't even start to guess where the money comes from) why individuals choose to buy helicopter companies. Frankly they must be mad or keen to make a tax-loss. How does it go? Want a small fortune! Start with a big one and buy a helicopter (company)!

Yup we need competition and it would be really nice if some rich gent dipped into his pocket to pay MD to be some pace-setting hare! Well, maybe someone will want to buy MD....look where the money comes from in Football these days.

'33 switches in the air versus 19 in the hangar' - good phrase and just about sums it up!

hmmmmm

[TeeS]

Have to agree with previous comments on the Cat A switch. I find it difficult to believe that it could not have been made as an 'arming' switch, allowing the Cat A mode to be activated by IAS data.

Other than that (and the shed bus switch) though, it's the dogs danglies!

TeeS

[Nail The Dream]

EjectEject - any update on that replacement Gearbox issue message ???

... any other updates on spares issues, Company issues ???
:rolleyes:

[PANews]

Rumour has it that when undertaking major work on one of the Explorers [possibly the West Midlands airframe] at PAS in Staverton trouble was found with one of the new design securing pins. It 'just fell apart' .... [ouch!].

These are the redesigned 'fit and forget' pins not those that resulted in a short term general grounding last year.

That was a week ago and so far nothing has leaked out of the 'tight ship' to confirm the story.......

.... or otherwise.

Unless you know better?

[volrider]

Unless you know better?

Your scources have not given you the full truth or your putting two and two together and getting five:=

[dr atkins]

Your right Volrider, Looks like PANews is getting increasingly desperate to try and bully the Explorer fleet by pushing out inaccurate rumour and since when did this thread turn from a spares problem rumour to a 902 bashing thread.
As if PANews doesn't waste enough time on his monthly work of fiction that he has to spread his one sided views here. Still I can't blame him for clutching at straws. He knows as well as all the police units do that the end of the Dutch contract will free up masses of R+D for the Explorer which will blow the 135 and 145 out of the water.

Dr A

[PANews]

As I said it was a rumour, so .....

1. It does not get into print in the magazine unless substantiated.

2. It's open for correction.


If it is substantially wrong [and it was not ME that invented the rumour upon which I based the post] I guess there may be a need for someone out there to put out the correct version.

I like Dr Atkins prescription for putting everything right in MDs camp .... freeing up some research money thanks to the KLPD cancellation .... but MD have gone on public record saying that they are carrying on with certification of the KLPD standard.... so this may take some time.... 3 months Dale said ....

Exactly where the Dr will get '... masses of R+D for the Explorer... ' I would be interested to learn. MD are in a very poor financial state - have you not been listening?

'... which will blow the 135 and 145 out of the water...'

Good.... it would be great to see substantial competition but the 135 is JAR27 and the 145 is JAR29.... perhaps you want to add the EC155 ... 225... and the Tiger to the list....?

Seriously, in its current parlous financial state, even if it happens it will be a long time before MDHI and the Explorer are in a fit enough state to merely pull themselves together let alone blow anything out of the water. Wishful thinking will not magic the spares [the core of this thread] from out of the ether.

There are plenty of operators out there that are publicly ditching the airframe because they claim they have reached the end of their particular tether. Case in point is Suffolk County Police NY. This is not something I have created, I just report what appears to be going on based on their statements in the public domain.

Here? Well fishing for the truth on an incomplete storyline ... just like many others who hide their identity.

I know many have labelled me as a 100% Explorer hater but just reporting stories in the public domain does not mean the stories themselves are without substance.

Volrider.... Accuracy - if you know it as you claim .... can be entered in your next post..... Inaccurate rumours, like the one I picked up, will still wizz around damaging the Explorer unnecessarily unless they are comprehensively put down.

And it its not enough to just say WRONG... You are clearly saying there is something .... and not even that its unimportant.... That is probably worse. You may keep 'the truth' within the UK community but how might that help other operators out of the UK?

As for me being 'increasingly desperate' ...

No, the Explorer is just one [very interesting] aircraft in my domain. Even on a real heavy news day on the type it is just one page in 26, that's nothing.

You want to talk Cessna Caravan?

[Coconutty]

"Inaccurate rumour" - here - REALLY ?

PAN may have assumed it was the West Mids a/c with duff blade pins, as there hasn't been any info to say if their gearbox problem has been sorted, and you you would need to get the blades off before working on the gearbox - WHEN WAS THIS PAN ?

Surely PAS are working on other a/c that also need the blades off - so why else would he assume it was the West Mids one ?

Anyone confirm if that ship is back on line yet ???

[SilsoeSid]

PANews,

I think your sources need tweeking a bit.
WMID hasn't been to BJ for a while now, as I think you are aware!

Still, truth - good story and all that :ok:

SS

[jayteeto]

Arguments about single and individual problems won't help here. The thread will turn into a "lets slag off any problem the 902 has" and people will switch off. The questions on downtime and repeat snags are valid, the press have EVERY right to ask what taxpayers money is doing. The arguments should not get personal either. Remember 902 people, we actually want your product to be good. We are brothers in arms who do the same job. We are not in competition, if the 902 'blows the competition away', then brilliant!! Eurocopter will need to keep up with them and we will all get a better product as well. (T2 upgrade is great). However, you should not put up with crap customer support. Big companies will take you to the cleaners if you just roll over.

[PANews]

In view of the previous post I will keep this short....

My post of...

... Explorers [POSSIBLY the West Midlands airframe] at PAS....

assumed [as in POSSIBLY] that there might be only one airframe currently needing major transmission related work at PAS at this time. Obviously wrong.

I did not know, do not know [or care?] where WMID is on a day-to-day basis. Neither do I know where any of the 30 other UK police helicopters are day-to-day.... why on earth would I?

[Notar fan]

If it is substantially wrong [and it was not ME that invented the rumour upon which I based the post] I guess there may be a need for someone out there to put out the correct version.

PANews,
How sad a world is yours when you have to resort to posting on a public forum to gather information worthy of you monthly rantings, and then just don't seem to get why MDHI nor PAS will give you the time of day. One of your problems is that when you can only get one side of the story, you fabricate the other.

On a more technical note, the "redesigned 'fit and forget'' pins were never ever that. The design has hundreds of thousands of hours on them with problems limited to one customer.....but your journalistic expertise in research probably would never show you that.

[SilsoeSid]

PANews,

With respect, you did say;Unless you know better? I do, and thought you'd like to know.

Sorry for trying to help you get your facts right.

SS :ouch:

[PANews]

Notar Fan.

Welcome to the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

Why are you here?

How do you know about my monthly rantings?

How do you know they are monthly?

Sad place to be every month I reckon.

Nuff said.



Silsoe.... yes, sorry you are right I did ask .... but that did not exactly provide an answer!

[Coconutty]

jayteeto - Quite right too - next thing you know "someone" will be trying to hijack this thread and go into sales mode for suitable 902 replacements !

So before he does - BE WARNED that you will hear "FACTS" quoted that, for example :rolleyes:

the EC145 can carry up to 12 passengers for three hours. ( April edition of PAN ) - the EC145 being the chosen new aircraft for UK Met. Police,

While the Met. Police themselves agree that :
Just in case anyone is in any doubt, an EC145 fitted to the 'normal' UK police role equipment spec is NOT capable of carrying 12 pax for any length of time - never mind 3 hours
and in case there was any doubt at all the Eurocopter Web Site says:
Thanks to its spacious cabin and flat floor, the EC 145 can be configured for a multitude of missions such as passenger transport (up to 9 passengers) VIP transport, SAR and EMS missions, law enforcement service operations.
So even quoted facts from PAN aren't always what they seem , never mind the rumours ! :suspect:

[SilsoeSid]

In the words of the great someone or other;

The truth is too precious to tell every fool who asks!

Thats why we have sites like this, :ok:

[PANews]

Coconutty that quote ascribed to me was quite clearly a precis ascribed to the Metropolitan Police newspaper The Job. [As quoted, April edition page 7 right at the bottom. The last two words?

[The Job]

Many items in PAN are clearly labelled as to source and errors not necessarily edited out. Errors in the italics I may well plead to.


As far as claimed performance goes professionals know that every airframe has trade-offs.

You can probably go to every UK air support web page operating the Squirrel and read that the AS355F has a 'two hour' patrol time.... uh.... since when?

Shall we tell them off?

I guess that the 145 [which is considerably bigger overall than the 135 and the 900] could quite easily pop a squad of 10 plus the crew across Brixton prison wall but as we all know perfectly well it isn't going to do it non-stop from Glasgow....

The EC Tech Data sheet actually disagrees with The Job. It states '1 or 2 pilots + 7 or 6 passengers....' But I think its likely it means in proper crashworthy seats in that configuration....

Operators such as the French Gendarmerie POSSIBLY where that 12 comes from would not necessarily worry about proper seats for a tactical mission.... so might it be 14?


The truth is too precious to tell every fool who asks!

True!

[Nail The Dream]

Aww shucks - just when we were starting to believe PAN ( yeah right ) when he said 1. It does not get into print in the magazine unless substantiated. ... he goes and spoils it by trying to blame it on someone else - so much for the "news" in his "news"paper :yuk:

Anyone else thiink he ought to butt out of this thread unless he's got something useful to say about the topic - SPARES AVAILABILITY ??

[EjectEject]

I have been told that West Mids having had their MRGB replaced recently, are off line again. I am told that this latest MRGB only lasted a few days. This time I believe they may be AOG for even longer. I feel really sorry for what they are having to put up with.

[Notar fan]

Its called EjectEject. .........unless they have the same sources, .....cos the sure talk the same :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[quichemech]

Having stood between a Bk117(basically the same cabin size as a 145) and a 902, I was surprised at how small the 117 interior is considering it's higher weight. Old technology I hear some of you say, but then is not the145 just a 117 with an undated nose and avionic pack( a little too simplistic I grant you but close enough for you to get the drift).

As for fitting 12 or 14 blokes in it, you're having a laugh! Not the size most coppers are.

PAN, who's your source, he doesn't feed you accurate enough information, hope you're not paying them.

[jayteeto]

Notar Fan, EjectEject was back on thread with rumours about downtime. You say he is talking :yuk: so thank you for telling us that west mids is not actually u/s with another gearbox problem. Is that correct??

[volrider]

PAN said Inaccurate rumours, like the one I picked up, will still wizz around damaging the Explorer unnecessarily unless they are comprehensively put down
But you report these inaccurate rumours ie the comment about the passenger abilities of the 145, I know as well as most that you are a Eurocopter fan not sure if that is a"paid" occupation. However it seems you are not on many peoples Christmas card list on this forum:E

the MD902 is a fine helicopter in fact I would go as far to say its a better helicopter than the EC135 we all know its quieter and the rear cabin has more space, ergo friendly for the drivers.
Sadly this helicopter is heading in my eyes for a Rover/MG fate. Due to MDH and their problems I fear the Emergency services will lose the best equipment they could get for the money (oh the $ makes the 902 cheaper as well!)
I will rue the day if my fears come to fruition, it will be a sad day when Eurocopter have the field the ball and the goalposts all to themselves, don't kid yourself PAN that this will be good for everyone, less chioce means less competition end result the customer gets shafted:sad:

[the_flying_cop]

i graduated from twin squirrel onto a 902. it looks the part, it sounds (quietly) like the part, a very capable airframe. sure it has had problems, but i challenge you to put your extensive (?) knowlege to name any aircraft type that has not.

sure you cant throw the 902 round like a squirrel and yes its like a large bus in a crosswind but it does exactly what we wanted it to do and more.

one of my colleagues prints out your propaganda every month and leaves it lying round the office. every month i resist picking it up but find myself having to read it to see what nonsense you are spouting this time.

i dont mean to be rude but personally i dont think your mag. is up to much, generally has the same bland content each month. i also chuckled quite heartily to see you dominating this thread trying to justify your existence.

i also understand why many units dont like speaking to you.


regards

TFC.

(ps) imagine if there was another magazine that wrote about the deficiencies of police aviation journalism. i think you would get pretty tired of him ringing you once a week and making up a load of nonsense !

these are my personal views not the view of my employer.

[Coconutty]

Sorry PAN - must have dozed off reading your last post, and sorry also for not knowing the abbreviated names of all the different Police publications you get your "quotes" from. You see not being a Met. Police Bobby I had no idea that "The Job" was their magazine - I thought it was something to do with "The Job" :8

I'll refrain from passing comment about EC135 Arris Pot or Skid Mounting Rubber reliability as this post is about 902 spares :\

[noooby]

quichemech,

the cabins are in fact different between BK117C2 (EC145), and BK117C1/B/A series machines. Cabin has been stretched quite a bit, enough for another row of seats, and is a bit wider too. A company I used to work for takes the maintenance step off of the BK and puts in an extra window for the pax in the very back row (8 pax) for tourist work.

noooby

[quichemech]

noooby,

thanks for that, I stand corrected.

Not quite 12/14 yet, is it.:rolleyes: ;)

PAN, have you asked West Mids or PAS to comment?

[jayteeto]

Coconutty, read the thread again..... Downtime problem?? When the u/c rubbers or a vibro pot go u/s, they get fixed pretty quick. If 902 gearboxes or whatever go u/s it is a long wait. That is what a downtime problem is. Repeating myself again (and again), I know it is a brilliant machine, that has never been in question, but it is no good to anyone sat in a hangar.....
Flying Cop, why cant you throw it around like a squirrel?? and you want me to name an aircraft that hasn't had these problems???? eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, can you name an aircraft that HAS had these problems you mean?

[EjectEject]

NOTAR FAN - I have no association with PAN who I thnk I can work out who he is. I have never spoken to the guy and have no desire to either, not even by using a mirrror when shaving in the morning. My last post is based on fact. I am interested in the unfortanate operators of a good aircraft for its role, when its flying. The thread is about 902 downtime. If PAN and others want to bash each other off the thread, then count me out.

So to clarify and to keep things on the thread - my post on the 29th March using a 902 user as an example about 902 downtime - re West Mids 902 MRGB having to be replaced was fact. It was off line for some time. My post yesterday 11th April - I was told it came back on line last weekend. I was told it lasted about 3-4 days before its started showing metal again. It was certainly yesterday back at PAS. The signs were not looking good again and they expect to off line for some time. Lets hope not.

NOTAR FAN - if you think I am talking whatever, get the phonebook out, ring PAS and find out. Its that easy. Even I can do it.

[PANews]

Ah, you carried on without me...

Well, on balance, it looks like there isn't a clear story relating to pin trouble.... certainly no SB's yet... and that surprisingly enough is all I dared to ask.... so I guess I can leave you to it for a few days and when you have pulled each other to pieces a little bit more .... I can decide whether I need to follow up with a call to PAS or West Mids. [i.e. whether I care]. Run of the mill Explorer downtime is no longer news to any of us I am sorry to say.

I would have thought that anything serious to do with pins would have surfaced by now, so we are just back to those 'usual' servicability problems.

Such is hardly news when Cessna have just flown a new bizjet... the AB139 has apparently been dropped from Deepwater ... and a bank has filed a lawsuit against Franklin County Sheriff.... meanwhile I have to balance two press releases sent in by two air ambulances in the UK [written by others of course] that claim they are the 'busiest in Britain' ... oh woe .... Now which one is telling the truth ... oh woe... I guess I may edit both claims out....

I suppose I could ask on Pprune....

Whaaat!

In truth this is all about nothing. PAN is, and always has been mainly about taking extracts of news from around the world [they call them press releases and news reports] and putting them together in one place. In some instances there is editing like when FLIR systems and Wescam both say their camera is the best in the World [that's the customers call] and some explanatory text .... interpreting media speak .... like adding information that The Met had not ordered their EC145s yet - contrary to what The Job article was suggesting ... [and I still believe they havn't]

So ... if you don't like the style don't read it ... but please don't expect me to bleed for you... those days were left behind on the streets of Kings Cross some 39 years ago......

[Notar fan]

Sincerest apologies EjectEject, the information in your last post was correct. It seems my source was a little behind the curve.

:O :O

Interesting situation, as its the only aircraft that has had the upgraded transmission removed for chips.

Once again, my apologies for my last post.

[Coconutty]

... getting back on track, what does everyone think might happen if all the rumours / scaremongering about MDHI came true and they actually went "bust" - which I sincerely hope they do not - ( it would be great to hear some reassurances from them ) but what might happen with the spares situation ?

As I see it the parts suppliers, e.g. Kawasaki and no doubt others, are probably already asking for payment for parts up front.

Surely these companies will want to continue to sell their parts and make a profit and there is obviously a market for them !

Could a situation develop where parts are supplied more directly, instead of via MDHI and then onto PAS ( or whoever is the local maintenance company ) before reaching the "end user" -
MDHI would be out of the loop and the parts supplied directly to the local maintenance guys ?

If this happened would the parts actually become cheaper ? - The more companies in the supply chain the more will be added to final price ?

Thinking of Kawasaki gearboxes - the topic of the moment, as has been rightly pointed out, the failure of one ( or more ) of these is not MDHI's fault, and Kawasaki will be providing replacements ( at their cost if under warranty, not at MDHI's cost ), and this probably applies to a lot of the other bits and bobs.

This of course does not mean that all 902 users have no need for MDHI to continue in business - they are obviously the experts in the design / modifications / development etc etc, I was just wondering with regards to spare parts supply - "What if......?" -

Over to you :hmm:

[PANews]

Dare I?

Ahhh what the heck.

Clearly I am not 'in' but from my sources it was my understanding that as the design authority all parts have to pass through MDHI ... however .... it was also my understanding that a significant number [perhaps all] of parts do [or can do] already travel direct to the customer in a real World scenario.

As far as future spares goes - if the worst should happen - I would not expect the situation to change apreciably. I have been unable to identify any specific items that are made by MDHI at Mesa [that does not mean there are none]. On the face of it the modern MD plant is a pure assembly plant [with a major spares holding of Kaman produced parts].

So if I am correct [wait for the howls!] it would seem that as long as the design authority paperwork can be finalised there is no obvious danger to current operators of 'running out of spares' - after an initial hiatus the system could actually be better for those operators not expecting to call upon Warranty parts.

It might actually be a straight commercial deal unhindered by any debt issues.

[huntnhound]

A fascinating thread, and some worthy contributions from all participants.....

And now some obvious honesty.

1.Its a fantastic aircraft when it is online.

2. Like any aircraft...its as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike when its broke.


3. MD helicopters are woefully inadequate in spares back-up.


Who, in their right mind would buy one from this useless american company? Let alone buy another?

I agree with Volrider. Its the Rover of the Helicopter world.

Let it R.I.P

:\

[Fortyodd]

"Who, in their right mind would buy one from this useless american company? Let alone buy another?"

Cambridgeshire Police - Apparently

:\

[Thomas coupling]

Now who in their right mind, persuaded Cambs to buy a 902 in this climate???????

Unless of course, it was the bean counters again.


Some forces never, ever learn do they. They have a golden opportunity to watch everything going on around them, right down to their immediate neighbours (with different a/c) and they think to themselves:

"we know better"

Well you lot over there in the flatlands......hope you've got your reasons in writing ready for the C.C...you're going to need them:eek:

[zorab64]

TC - I refer the Honorable Member to the comments made on 28th March - a result of your earlier opinions on why some forces make decisions that appear nonsensical to the community at large.

P.S. Again TC, concur with your "personal prejudice" comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a recent decision (as yet un-delivered & already delayed) now that a "person" has moved on!

I wonder if the remaining bean-counters at Cambs are watching this thread??

[diethelm]

PAnews:

Lets igonre MD specifically for a minute.

If a company's assets are far lower in value than the liabilities, nothing can improve significantly until that situation is rectified. In America, we have a bankruptcy code which in essence gives unsecured creditors very little power. So if you believe a company has assets that have value, by running the company through a bankruptcy, you can peel out those assets either through a reorganization or through a 363 sale. Once those assets are unencumbered by the previous liens, those assets can be utilized for the benefit of the new owner. Now remeber an asset includes not only physical assets but contracts and rights of which you can chose which ones to keep and which ones to disavow. Now the good news is that those assets which are valuable will be picked up, but the bad news may be that those which are deemed not that valuable would be left.

So, one could argue that the "worst" is the only way and the quickest way that a situation such as MD can be resolved.

[destructor]

Having had the pleasure of riding round in a 902 for the last 4 years I can say that has been enjoyable. Yes like all A/C it has needed spares but we have still clocked up nearly 4900 hours. Our engineers keep ontop of the machine and think ahead so we do not have too many periods of down time.
Having been flying for over 30 years spares for all makes of A/C have from time to time caused downtime. But I would never call the 902 a hanger queen. The 135 has had problem even recently with water in the blades so what the problem is sorted and we all keep on flying.

[Thomas coupling]

Whats the UK police 902 reliability record at, then?
The 902 User Gp should provide that.

For the record, the EC135 stats from 15 forces show:
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.

[SilsoeSid]

If the last hour is anything to go by, we have 100% :ok:

[Northskycop]

There is a recent police task where not one explorer in the North was on line and they had to bring in a 135 from the other side of the country.

South Yorks were off line waiting a part for nearly five weeks, no other reason.

Everyone gets defensive, but the reality is that the Explorer does not have the support, takes at least twice as long for servicing, is an operational risk - and is the worst possible operating environment for the rear police observer.

Other than that, it's fine.

[Nail The Dream]

We all know what they say about statistics ... here's another one :

( Depending on the day of the week and the Police force in question )
Approximately / rough average 25% of EVERY day, AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

and is the worst possible operating environment for the rear police observer.
http://www.essex.police.uk/memorial/images/mann3.jpg
Chief Inspector Manning pictured (2nd from right)
while working with the pioneering police helicopter unit.

Apparently the lattice work used to really cut into your knees. :)

[jayteeto]

Nail the Dream, interesting comment. Where does your stats come from? My maths are poor so can you just confirm how you are quoting this, as it is ambiguous. Are you saying 7 ac are u/s whilst the 902 isn't? or that 25% of the time, 1 of 7 EC135s are u/s? Or does unavailable mean in for servicing?

In other words 1 day in every 4, 1 in 7 ac is not available. Which means each ac is down for 1 day in 28. Seeing as we fly 100 hours a month, ie 2x50hr services at 1/2 day each. I make that we NEVER go u/s.

If servicing is not included, that still means approx one day a month, which is 96% servicable. I'll take that thanks!! If my maths are wrong, please accept my apology for being a w@nker!!

[handysnaks]

Jayteetoo

My hunch is that you are barking up the wrong tree...

I suspect that Nails point is about units that work 24 hours.

(Yours of course being one of them)

although that is not the point of this thread.

But you probably knew that anyway...

Now, where's gran, she needs another egg sucking lesson:bored:

[SilsoeSid]

Of course, it was obvious wasn't it? Statistics only tell us what you want them to. http://www.helitorque.com/portal/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

What use is an 'S' aircraft if it is in the hangar, lets say for 5 hours of a day. (3am-8am for example ). I must add that this is a BEST CASE as some units are in the hangar for more than an average 5hrs a day during a week.

In a normal month, with 100% servicability, 150 flying hours are lost in this 'best case'.

On these figures, losing 5hrs a day in the hangar, even with 100% 'servicability' the aircraft is at 79.2% availability. http://www.helitorque.com/portal/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif

A bit less than previous figures; For the record, the EC135 stats from 15 forces show:
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.which perhaps TC would like to adjust! ;)

[Nail The Dream]

Jayteeto,

Point is that stats can be produced to show just about anything :

7 seperate Police forces who all "use" 135's does not necessarily mean 7 aircraft ( consortiums ).
The ASU's for these 7 forces as handysnaks has hinted at, don't work 24 hrs a day, finishing around 2.30 - 3.00 am and not back on until 8.00 - 8.30 makes 6 hours ( 25% of a day ) unavailable. ( "Ball park" figures taking into account differing weekend working etc ).

One 902 based in the same region DOES provide 24 hr cover so is MORE OFTEN than not available to provide support to those other forces. ( Or at least while it remains servicable for at least 50% of the time :hmm: )

NOTHING to do with spares or reliability, just a talking point about "Stats" which don't always reveal the true picture.

Nothing wrong with your maths either - Apology not needed :ok:

[jayteeto]

Ok, ta!! But I think it is going off thread by saying the units are closed. Downtime in this instance is length of scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, ie aircraft servicability. If the engineers were working on the helis during 'closed' times, then it is fair game to call it downtime.
A question, we do the majority of our flying in the early hours and very little during the day. If we had a 6 hour window, I am sure it would be from 6am to midday. Why do units close at 3.00am? Is there different peak demand hours around the country?

[What Limits]

I think its more to do with FTL than peak demand. How this may change with the transition to EASA will be quite interesting. Although it may be the case that police ops are not regulated by EASA, FTL may be. We can only wait and see.

[Thomas coupling]

Nail the dream: You talk bollocks. Thats taking stats to the limit! Why not say that the GMP Islander can therefore cover every force in the country when that unit is not operationally on line???

Or any 24hr EC135 Unit can offer its services to all those 'Northern' forces (northskycop was on about) while they are 'unavailable'. :confused:

Silsoesid: To clarify:

I co-ordinate the stats on behalf of ALL the EC135 UK police units. The actual data is kept with the NE Unit as you may or may not be aware.

There are 2 sets of stats:
Availability to the police force they serve, including downtime due to sickness/maintenance/weather, etc.

Availability to the force based purely on serviceability of the helicopter (due to maintenance issues (scheduled and unscheduled).

I was reporting the latter.

The red herring Nail the dream was on about covers variables which are totally outside the control of any Unit (10,20,224hr shifts) and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the thread.

The really juicy bit in all this (be it 902/109/355/135) is:

What are the availability stats for scheduled and UNSCHEDULED maintenance. Scheduled downtime is (a) projected and (b) minimal.

My previous qoute encapsulated this.


Northskycop raised interesting issues - from the horses mouth too?

[Nail The Dream]

TC,

Maybe I should have put a bigger devil picture before that post !

I see you have managed to pick up the gist of what the message was saying, and for translating quite eloquently thank you :

"Stats = Bollocks" :E

[MightyGem]

AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist
Hmmm...by the Central region, I can only assume(by looking at my map of UK Police Forces and EC135 deployment) that you mean the Midlands, but I'm happy to be corrected. So that will be 3x135s(Cent Counties, East and North Mids), with West Mids and their 902 doing a bit of mutual support...when it's not getting a new gerabox.

[huntnhound]

Its interesting that the manufacturers never appear to defend themselves to countless attacks and allegations.

Perhaps they know there s no defence to ineffiency
:ooh:

[PANews]

_________________________________
Its interesting that the manufacturers never appear to defend themselves to countless attacks and allegations.
_________________________________

Not so.

They are here and have posted more than once in defence of the product.

As it is a 'Pprune-sin' to out the posters I can say no more.

[huntnhound]

Oh good I`m glad our American cousins are stayingin touch with current thoughts on their products.

Perhaps they would like to get in touch with the administrators at Rover , Longbridge, where there are a never ending supply of gearboxes.....unlike the present supply being offered....which extends to a run of .....er.....zero:uhoh:

[PANews]

Alas poor huntnhound you may be mistaken......

These 'American cousins' are frighteningly European - RDM is after all a Dutch company and the people who work[ed] there include representation from another Nationality whose mother tongue is English.

[Notar fan]

PANews,
I thought RDM was no more. I heard or read somewhere they went bankrupt last year. I did a web search and found this site.

http://www.rdmt.nl makes for some interesting reading.

BTW, what do mean by "frighteningly European" ? Aren't you proud of your European heritage, or is it just that the Netherlands was never colonized??

[PANews]

Well I'll be blowed! And RDM was so easy to remember! I guess I just am not close enough to the front as far as RDM was concerned. Lucky you are.

'Frighteningly Euro' ........... it was just that the Yanks were being blamed unnecessarily [for once!].

Bearing in mind that this 'new' situation relating to MD Helicopters owners has been in place for some six months now and during that time there has been a cash injection by Boeing does that mean the ownership change has altered nothing?

In fact do Nedefco own MD or have they now gained more independence than they had through the collapse of RDM? Is that good or bad?

With this - not so new - development it is perhaps easier to understand the venom detectable in the Dutch papers [well the Telegraf anyway] at the time of the KLPD cancellation. Now it seems there was a track record.

I must cancel the Daily Mail and order a Dutch paper!

[MightyGem]

AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist
Looks like it's a 135 covering at the moment. :rolleyes:

[Letsby Avenue]

Notar Fan - European heritage.....WTF is that?:confused:

[PANews]

Letsby Avenue I must admit that being expected to be proud of my European heritage was a bit daunting.

I thought we Brits had a bad name for shunning many European ideals .... but it bothered me less when I found that half the Germans and French of my acquaintance had similar Nationalistic thoughts not reflecting those of the politicians ....

Perhaps Notar Fan expects too much!

[PANews]

Today Rotorhub posted a new twist in the story relating to the future of MDHI.

It suggests ... no, it states as fact .... that the deal surrounding Boeing’s ARH proposal a modified MELB (Mission Enhanced Little Bird) ... resulted in Boeing buying out the line from MDHI.

Whilst this has removed a debt it appears that it also removes MDHI from a direct earning potential via Little Bird. In short MDHI now effectively has nothing to gain or lose from either Bell or Boeing winning the ARH competition. They will still be able to sell a civil version though and Kaman [who build shells] may have gains.

http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=b3678c7a-9868-454d-b0ba-a776f2bad55a

The latest on the West Midlands saga is that the Explorer remains grounded. After a couple of MGB changes 'made metal' it and a whole series of tests failed to show anything out of sync with the aircraft it was decided to await the results of a Kawasaki strip of one of the rejected boxes before risking another.

I am assured that there has been no shortage of gearboxes ... but just that it was time to call a halt to give this unusual situation time to be resolved.

[Vfrpilotpb]

I hope I dont sound picky or plain looking for problems, but I have just read what seemed to be a very well put together piece in one of my Shooting Mags concerning the
Great Northern Air Ambulance (GNAA) and its area's of operation in the North Eastern part of the UK it explains in good detail how everyone works as a team and how they decide what and where to take any sort of accident or incident victim,.. but then there is a small box placed into the general print which starts to give details of the actual Helicopter,

it explains that:-

" starting or shutting down in strong winds greater than 30Knts is very dangerous, as the rotor blades can bend considerably and could easily come into contact with the crew".

two questions from that statement.

Are the blades on the MD902 so flexible as to be able to bend that far ?

And if so, is there a better Heli with more rigid blades that would be more suitable for ops like this in one of the most windy areas of the UK?

Or is some one miss informed!

Vfr

[CRAN]

Vfr,

This is correct and quite normal, it's known as blade sailing. Rotor blades rely on centrifugal force in order to maintain sufficient rigidity in the flap-wise direction. As the rotor speed decays, the centrifugal force reduces more rapidly than the aerodynamic force and therefore very large flapping motions can result. The effects are most pronounced for ship-borne helicopter operations where high winds and the turbulence around the ships superstructure result in rather extreme conditions.

Hope this helps
CRAN

[Thomas coupling]

EC135 blades don't sail.................................enough to have to brief specifically about them.

[helicopter-redeye]

Don't these guys normally shut down or disengage the rotors before loading casualties?

I guess the medics can unload with the ship held at full power, which would not be right on top of a casualty site anyway??

h-r

:\ :8

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning Cran,

Yes I know about sailing, but what I was trying to find out was are those blades on the MD so flexible as to be able to actually come down far enough to make contact with any crew or ground crew, from the picture that I have been able to drag up showing the MD the blades look quite short and ridgid, and don't appear to be able to flex that far!

Peter R-B
Vfr

[whoateallthepies]

Vfr
The Explorer blades are no better or worse than other types. The max windspeed for starting/stopping rotors is 50 kts.

You can start/stop the machine so quickly, there is no benefit in loading rotors running.

In any case,crew should not be entering or leaving the disc whilst starting or stopping!

[CRAN]

Again it is difficult to answer properly without some sums, but my guess is that under the correct conditions all types of helicopter can experience blade sailing sufficient to harm by-standers. (Even those with hingeless hubs!) So in answer to your original question, yes I still think the report is credible and I don't think it is limited to the MD900 range.

Hope this helps
CRAN
:ok:

[Head Turner]

Rotor blades can flex sufficiently to endanger anyone under them when RRPM is less than flying rpm. There is, and unfortuately I do not have a copy, a photograph of a Wessex rotors running on a carrier with the forward rotor blade flexing to about 4 feet of the deck. Blade strikes of tailbooms are not uncommon during starting and particulary stopping rotors during windy/gusty conditions. Hiding behind a building to be out of the wind is not the best place to close down as eddys and gusts can be more destructive in these places - stay out in the open if possible where the wind is more constant.

[SilsoeSid]

This'll make your eyes water;

http://motty.hobbyvista.com/Helicopters/'Turtle'-69-01.jpg

Add a bit of rotation a sniff of wind and stand well back!!!


Ok so a bit of an extreme case the old Chinook, but I would hazard a guess that with a slow-med rotation speed and a reasonable wind, the blade sail for even something like the Lynx/135 types would still be a good couple or three feet.

Bearing in mind the original post relates to the GNAA which will be operating in, I would suspect, uneven ground a lot of the time, no matter which type of machine they use, the risk of a blade coming down to head/'arm holding drip up' height, would be reasonably high. Definitely high enough of a risk to warrant mention in a brief, it even if they had a 135!

Slow rotor speed + incoming crew/pax = high risk of mess!

[zorab64]

SS - I'd be reluctant to compare Lynx with EC135.

The Lynx starts with a lower head height and more flexible blades than the 135 and they can sail enough to remove an average head from its shoulders in the wrong conditions. When operating a Lynx at sea therefore (or any other navalised helicopter), one engine is started against the rotor brake - the other (in a twin) will have been started in accessory drive to power hydraulics, electrics etc. The rotorbrake is then released and the blades accelerated with some significant (60-70%) torque, to avoid possible blade sail. Stopping is the reverse, the rotor brake coming on at the earliest opportunity and stopping the blades significantly faster than any civil heli - full hydraulic pressure (103 Bar, if memory serves me right, in the case of the Lynx) applied at 47% Nr causes the whole aircraft to twist, with a torque reaction that feels as if it would tear the gearbox out of many lesser machines!

The 135, on the other hand, with it's higher head height and rigid head & blades, hardly sails at all and never (in my experience) enough to worry anyone at the edge of the disk on level ground. Whilst I would never allow anyone into/out of the disk whilst starting/stopping, (long established flight safety principles are worth sticking to), it is one of the few aircraft where it's theoretically possible without danger.

Concur with allthepies - when you can stop & start so quickly, there's no point in risking it for an extra few seconds.

I seem to remember an accident report, a year or five ago, where a B206 had landed rather heavily (Brazil, I think), pilot injured & unable to tell the pax to stay where they were until all had stopped. CEO & his PA (pax) jumped out, relieved to be alive, only to both be de-capitated by a decaying rotor which had been further lowered by splayed skids. A salutory lesson to all!

[FloaterNorthWest]

The head on the 902 is not semi rigid and employs a form of droop stop so there is always a danger of blade sail. I have shut the aircraft down in winds up to 50kts and there is a lot of movement especially if it is gusty.

The rotor brake on the 902 can be applied at 70% Nr which is as soon as you switch the engine control switches from IDLE to OFF. As there is no cooling period at IDLE with the P&W engines the aircraft can be shutdown within seconds of landing.

The rotor brake is one of the many good features of the aircraft and probably came off some American muscle car.

Having flown the Lynx and being current on the 135 and 902 I can safely say that the 902 is quicker to start and stop than either of them.

No doubt one of the 902 knockers will chip in that a good rotor brake isn't much use if the aircraft is always in the hangar!

FNW

[SilsoeSid]

The Lynx starts with a lower head height and more flexible blades than the 135 and they can sail enough to remove an average head from its shoulders in the wrong conditions.

http://www.eurocopterusa.com/Product/ec135/Specs_ec135p1t1.gif

http://www.agustawestland.com/dinimg/dim_superlinx.gif

Point taken, but I was wondering about the 135s forward tilt in the 'wrong conditions'!

Sods law states that when 'in the wrong conditions', the Lynx ACC/MAIN drive actuator will go u/s!

[helmet fire]

Disagree with you tc and zorab, I have seen a BK117 disc tilt down far enough to trim shoulder hairs.

IMHO there should be a simple rule regardless of type when blades are turning:
ALWAYS get a thumb up from the pilot monitoring the controls (or a crewman in comms with him). ALWAYS bow to the helicopter. NEVER go in or out of the disc when between engine shutdown and rotors stopped.
NEVER enter or leave a control seat with someone moving under the disc.

Best way to keep your head really.:}

[FlyAny]

The CH-47 can provide a very good example of this problem as a pilot induced problem.

While shutting down, with the RRPM getting slow enough that, with a little head wind, the blades of the forward rotor head that have been held up by the wind till about the 1 O’clock position, come down on the droop stops with some force.
The pilot, ever wanting to minimize the pounding of the droop stops, tries to "fly" the rotor blades off the stops by adding aft cyclic, which works very well, for a little while.
Then all at once, the blade is moving slowly enough the head wind no longer holds the blade up. The blade comes down with force and can flex low enough across the top of the aircraft to hit the tunnel cover over the drive shaft.

And another hard day of explanations has begun.

[zorab64]

Helmet fire - Disagree with you tc and zorab, I have seen a BK117 disc tilt down far enough to trim shoulder hairs.
I can't claim familiarity with the 117, so can't comment on the rigidity of either head or blades.
Please note that I said "theoretically possible without danger." - we still warn people about the dangers of entering & exiting the disc & follow the long established principles of obtaining permission from the pilot etc. No change just because we've got a machine that appears relatively risk free.



SS - Point taken, but I was wondering about the 135s forward tilt in the 'wrong conditions'!
It doesn't have any to speak of - & don't forget the high skids add another 300mm or so to your diagram. Rotors stopped, tip height above ground is around 3m, when running add another 300mm or so - I'm not volunteering to measure it! Any blade sail that I've seen is not going to come lower than 2.5m - anyone that size won't fit in the door & is likely to put us over MAUW!



Sods law states that when 'in the wrong conditions', the Lynx ACC/MAIN drive actuator will go u/s!
When this happens, there's a sodding great bang, the whole aircraft twists on the ground with an angry torque reation and the pilot will shut down immediately - and pray that it was a mechanical fault and not his carelessness with the switches! It doesn't happen often, but it has happened & results in a complete drive train change having overloaded the system somewhat - and normally rather a lot of humble pie/egg on face!

[SilsoeSid]

zorab64;

Point taken about the 135s skid height.
2.5m! About the same height as a hand holding up a drip. Ok a bit of straw clutching there as y'all shut down anyway.

Reading your choice of my quote;

"Sods law states that when 'in the wrong conditions', the Lynx ACC/MAIN drive actuator will go u/s!"

This would in fact be a good thing the way you quote it. Why? because if you had the ECLs in the wrong configuration and flicked the switch, with the actuator u/s, nothing would happen. No big bang, just stuck in the same mode (main/acc) as when you flicked the switch.

Apparently, even with an 's' actuator there is now a system of microswitches that prevent the change-over if the ECLs are wrongly configured. yea right! Lets test that one out then!


In the context of the quote you gave, if you were on exercise for example and the actuator went u/s, the aircraft would be operated with main drive starts/stops, thus preventing the ability of going to ACC drive, rotors stopped, for pax embarkation/disembarkation.



By the way, did you hear about the guy who sat on the pan at GT for over an hour early one summers evening, between end of play and start of night flying, for no apparent reason until the duty NCO, lynx jockey, investigated?
Apparently the actuator wouldn't motor over to ACC. He sat there burning/turning waiting for the fuel to run out until Duty NCO carried out a main drive shutdown! :ooh:

[MightyGem]

ACC/MAIN
2 forward, 1 back
both engines running and stable
No2 95% plus, No1 a positive split

Pretty simple, I always thought, but every now and then someone gets it wrong. :rolleyes:

[John Eacott]

HF,

I'd be interested in the circumstances behind a 117 disc getting that low: the MMI must have been firmly in the red :(

SS,

The Sea King Accesory Drive caught me (and the Boss: I was JJ, so his co pilot ;) ) when we opted to shut down blades spread in Denmark, without the tedious business of retarding engines, etc.

"Watch this, Boss. All you do is switch off the gens, shut down, then put the Speed Selects in the right sequence to allow the AD actuator to motor, fool the system and Bob's your Mother's brother"

Great idea: especially when the battery cable had broken, so no generator, no power. No self exciting generators in those days, no way to shut down without wiggly amps: even retarding the manual throttles didn't flame the blasted engines out!!!!

Eventually the C130 landed with the support equipment and a ground power unit, but (as always) it was all My Fault. We sat there that long, that I wish we had run out of fuel to get away from the frosty atmosphere in the cockpit :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

MightyGem;2 forward, 1 back
both engines running and stable
No2 95% plus, No1 a positive split

From memory, Not strictly true!

And as you say, "every now and then someone gets it wrong".

;)
SS



Isn't it something like;

Engines must be either both running or both stopped
No1 ECL must be at GRD IDLE
No2 ECL must be at MAX
If both engines are running, ensure No2 engine is above 95% Nf and No1 has a positive Nf split.

Post MOD 720, the Accessory drive switch can function only if the generators are both on-line or both off-line.

:ok:

MG;
Pretty simple, I always thought, but every now and then someone gets it wrong. Famous last words! :p

[What Limits]

I think that all EC135s in the HEMS role in UK are on the low skid. Add uneven ground and this could still be an issue for anyone. I fly a high skid machine and its one hell of a long way down! And one hell of a long way up to get a casualty into the side door - so we use the rear door.

BTW, MG was right about the acc drive checks on the mark 1 Lynx pre-mod, and I think SS was right about the checks on the post-mod mark 7. I never flew the 9 so can't comment.

You lot must be good to be able to remember that stuff, dumped it long ago to make room for later types! Still remember the downwind checks on the mighty De Havilland Chipmunk Mk 10 though!

MFFHHB

[SilsoeSid]

"Fuel on, Brakes on, Throttle closed, Switches off".

:ok:
SS

[MightyGem]

Engines must be either both running or both stopped
(Both engines running and stable.)
No1 ECL must be at GRD IDLE
(1 back)
No2 ECL must be at MAX
(2 forward)
If both engines are running, ensure No2 engine is above 95% Nf
(No2 above 95%)
and No1 has a positive Nf split.
(No 1 a positive split)

Post MOD 720, the Accessory drive switch can function only if the generators are both on-line or both off-line.
(Correct, some used it as a check, but it was never taught as one and IIRC never appeared in the FRCs)

I always used to teach that if you couldn't rest your hand on the No1 ECL as you touched the ACC to Main switch, then something was wrong.

[SilsoeSid]

MG;

I believe the 'Post Mod 720' part about the generators, was a note after the 'Warnings', wasn't it? :=

SS

[MightyGem]

Yes, but it wasn't an ACC to Main check, just a note that if both gennys weren't both on or off, then it wouldn't work.

[SilsoeSid]

That's cleared that up I hope.
I knew some, who called out the generator part before flicking the switch, in anticipation of it not working maybe!
Perhaps the guy sat on the pan at GT should have read the note. :)

FWIR from BiH, the Mk 9s were all Post Mod.

What was the title of this thread again?
Ah, a lovely machine, no ACC/MAIN switch, quick to start and shut down, No run down time, excellent vis, etc.

:ok:
SS

p.s. "Engines must be either both running or both stopped", is not the same as "Both engines running and stable". :p

[soggyboxers]

Sounds as if the Lynx has a similar accessory drive system to the old Wessex 2 and 5, which caught out a number of people over the years. Jolly good idea though and I wish a few more civil twins had it.

As for the EC135, I wonder if it landed on an unstable offshore helideck and was rotors running because of strong and gusting winds, if it would be possible for the blades to strike someone inside the rotor disc if the pilot made a control input to stop his aircraft sliding off the deck due to aq large wave causing a huge pitching moment? I know the S76 has a much lower clearance at the front and an articulated head, but it's been responsible for decapitating a few people over the years and a couple of S61s have removed their cockpit tops in similar circumstances.

[Nail The Dream]

Rumour has it that MDHI will be making a formal announcement at this year's ALEA conference in Reno, Nevada, announcing some long overdue good news in the form of financial backing from a seriously large investment company - and about time too !

... Now I wonder - If our intrepid P.A.N. reporter might have already heard this news, why he hasn't posted it here ?

... maybe he's just sulking if he didn't get his invite to this evening's Piano party that MDHI are hosting :{

Conference Schedule (http://www.alea1.org/conference/events/events_all_days.asp)

:ok:

( edited for typo's etc. )

[Hughes500]

I hear on very good authority that MD has been re financed by a large US investment house to the tune of 51%
Hopefully us MD operators will get a better spares support. So far had one 500 AOG for 5 months as there are no main rotor drive shafts

[Notar fan]

NTD,
Our Friend PAN is not quite the supersleuth some may think. I hope the current management changes or he will never get any scoop on MDHI. :*

[metric]

Well,

Lets hope the seriously large investment company understands the helicopter business. How does the saying go? 'Want to make a small fortune...start with a large one and buy a helicopter!'

Getting the product right takes time and shedloads of cash....with both anything can be made to work.

I wish anyone chosing to enter the World helicopter market lots of luck...I mean with only 20-30 companies out there and military business the only real way to major profits (and then with a lot of luck) you really are going to need luck.

I think a Dot Com business would be easier!

[PANews]

Ah mentioned in despatches again!

As Notar Fan states I make no claims to any highly successful sleuthing.... as most of us know 'sleuthing' can be just a matter of luck [good or bad] and then asking questions. No magic in this business.

It seems at times it is just that certain sections of the industry get in a bit of a tizz being asked questions. The more mature seem to take things in their stride. Mostly by just ignoring the question rather than jumping up and down on Pprune!

I await the unfolding of this latest development with interest.

Like Metric I would put quite a lengthy period of time on any improvements. You cannot just wave a magic wand over all that delayed development.

[diethelm]

Hughes500

I had no problem getting a brand new main rotor drive shaft. email me and I will forward where I got it. Would you happen to have a right front belly skin?

[Bearintheair]

MD HELICOPTERS RECAPITALIZES BALANCE SHEET WITH NEW CONTROLLING PARTY
PRODUCT LINE FUTURE, CUSTOMER SUPPORT ASSURED
MESA, AZ, July 12, 2005 - MD Helicopters, Inc., a manufacturer of light helicopters, completed a significant restructuring transaction on July 8, 2005. As part of the transaction, Patriarch Partners, LLC, a New York based financial firm with approximately $4.5 billion under management, acquired a controlling interest in MD Helicopters, Inc.
The restructuring ensures that MDHI will have adequate working capital to continue production of existing product lines, aggressively improve customer support and fulfill existing orders. Following the recapitalization, MDHI is an independent Arizona-based company.
As part of the recapitalization, RDM, a Netherlands-based group, has retained a minority interest through one of its operating companies. RDM purchased the light helicopter operations from The Boeing Company in 1999. I am very pleased with this transaction as it is fully in line with our efforts over the past years to support the company and its products, said Joep van den Nieuwenhuijzen, RDM’s owner.
This recapitalization assures our customers that MD Helicopters will have sufficient working capital to be a strong, viable company fully able to support its products and its customers in their operations, said Henk Schaeken, CEO of MD Helicopters.
We are proud to add MDHI to our company portfolio. We believe that the demand for MD Helicopters’ products is deep and strong. We are pleased to be part of this great product line’s future. The strength of Patriarch Partners and the depth of our asset base provides the long-term financial and strategic support that the Company needs to rise to its natural level in the light helicopter market, said Lynn Tilton, the Chief Executive Officer of Patriarch Partners.
MD Helicopters manufactures the MD 500®, MD 520N®, MD 600N® and MD Explorer® series of light commercial and military helicopters. MD Helicopters’ products distinguish themselves by the proprietary Notar® no tail rotor technology. Company operations will continue to be based at existing facilities in Mesa, Arizona.
Schaeken said MD Helicopters’ immediate goal is to restore customer confidence in the Company and in its ability to support its products. We will be meeting with our customers and suppliers as soon as possible to restore their confidences in our long-term viability and the solid working relationships we once enjoyed, Schaeken said.
MD Helicopters has ignited its supply chain and production line. The company has a backlog of 17 helicopters, including recent orders by the police departments of Houston, Glendale and Columbus and two private owners. MD Helicopters also intends to bid its MD Explorer® for the US Army’s Light Utility Helicopter program.
In light of ongoing product improvements, the product line of MD Helicopters continues to be a favorite with military, law enforcement, commercial and private helicopters worldwide. The addition of the Notar® no tail rotor system provides significant operating efficiencies that distinguish the line from those of competitors. After 13 years in service, Notar®-equipped helicopters continue to be among the quietest and safest aircraft in operation.
Our association with Patriarch Partners provides assurances to our customers, suppliers and our employees that MD Helicopters will, once again, be a major supplier to the helicopter industry, Schaeken said. Our new working capital facility and the strength of our investors, provides for all concerned the confidence that MD Helicopters is in the helicopter business to stay.
The MD Helicopters family includes the twin-engine MD Explorer®, MD 600N®, and the MD 500® Series, including the MD 520N®, MD 500E® and the MD 530F®.
Only MD helicopters feature the NOTAR® anti-torque system, which is standard equipment on the MD Explorer®, MD 600N® and the MD 520N®. NOTAR® system-equipped aircraft are more quiet and have superior safety records than helicopters with conventional tail rotors.
Contact MD Helicopters, Inc.
Debbie Jones
(480) 346-6474
Debbie Jones

[Nail The Dream]

... lifted directly from Air Beat Magazine -
Journal of the Airborne Law Enforcement Association -
2005 ALEA Conference & Exposition Air Beat Today 22/7/05 (http://www.alea.org/public/airbeat/back_issues/airbeat_today/2005/AirBeatToday_7_22_05.pdf)

MD Helicopters Get Significant Financial Boost

MD Helicopters, Inc. completed a significant restructuring transaction as of July 8, 2005.
As part of this transaction, funds affiliated with Patriarch Partners, LLC, a New York and Charlotte based investment firm with approximately $4.5 billion under management, acquired a controlling interest in MDHI.
The restructuring ensures that MDHI will have adequate working capital to continue production of existing product lines, aggressively improve customer support and fulfill existing orders.
Following the recapitalization, MDHI is an independent company, and will continue to be based as its existing facility in Mesa, Arizona.
“We are proud to add MDHI to our portfolio of companies. We believe that the demand for MD Helicopters’ products
is deep and strong. The strength of Patriarch Partners and the depth of our asset base provides the long-term financial and
strategic support that the company needs to excel in the light helicopter market,” said Lynn Tilton, Chief Executive Officer
of Patriarch Partners.
“This recapitalization assures our customers that MD Helicopters will have sufficient working capital to be a strong, viable company fully able to support its products and its customers in their operations and that MD Helicopters is in the helicopter business to stay,” said Henk Schaeken, Chief Executive Officer of MD Helicopters.
Schaeken said MD Helicopters’ immediate goal is to restore customer confidence in the company and in its ability to support its products.
“We will be meeting with our customers and suppliers as soon as possible to restore their confidences in our long-term viability and the solid working relationships we once enjoyed.”

So there you go :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

Does MDHI make the 900 model or is it completely separate and connected with the Dutch company?????

[Ian Corrigible]

MD900 aka MD Explorer is from the same company (Kaman does the blades). There's a rumor that MDH may team-up with a U.S. prime to offer the type for the LUH requirement.

I/C

[B Sousa]

The 500 series (with Tail Rotor) is still one of the sweetest things flying. Heres hoping we see a few more....

[md 600 driver]

great news


steve

[handysnaks]

F@*!!£g Hell TC, How many times do we need to tell you!!;)

MDHI = MD Helicopters Incorporated

MD Helicopters Incorporated IS NOT McDonnell Douglas Helicopters.
Any confusion is historical and deliberate
:p :rolleyes: :ok:

I really do hope that this is the news that all MD operators want to hear.......


The Horses Mouth (http://www.mdhelicopters.com/news/Current%20Releases/MD%20HELICOPTERS%20RECAPITALIZES.htm)

[MightyGem]

Apparently there's an Explorer for sale in the UK...

[ShyTorque]

About what? :confused:

Ah, MG, you might have edited it now but I was too quick, I saw it! ;)

[handysnaks]

Virgin Hems have had theirs up for sale for a while now....:rolleyes:

[jayteeto]

MightyGem, you bad boy, winding up the 902 people!! Again!!
Its not the virgin one, it is black and yellow...........

[MightyGem]

Sorry about the split post, but I kept getting "Network Access
Denied" web pages at work, when trying to post anything more than a
dozen letters or so. That first post took me three edits! Then I gave
up.

Anyway, to continue. Apparently the asking price is a paltry
£300,000, and no-one's offered to buy. You get less depreciation on a
Ford Fiesta!! :E

jayteeto: you've obviously not had a problem posting then.

[What Limits]

Whats the detail, I might be interested in buying it.

[quichemech]

Being quite serious, where is it advertised?

[md 600 driver]

300.000 who is selling that one is some one out of their minds you could get that for the donkeys and gearbox

can you post the seller or send pm
steve

[902Jon]

Unfortunately £300,000 is the price Eurocopter are offering as a trade-in price against a new EC135 or EC145.

MD600 The donkeys are usually leased from Pratt & Whitney so they could not be sold on as spares.

[Thomas coupling]

Virgin HEMS for sale 2004: £1.2 million

Virgin HEMS for sale 2005: £300,000.


Still no takers.........................

[MightyGem]

It's not Virgins. To prevent possible embarresment, I shall refrain from naming. However, one of the pilots is a keen pprunner, so I'm sure he'll post eventually.

[handysnaks]

Well if as you say, one of the pilots is a keen ppruner, you could either pm him or her to find out if there is any truth in the rumour.

Or show us the ad!! :eek:

[Thomas coupling]

Is the Unit the opposite of East...mids?

[MightyGem]

I would have thought handysnaks would know. ;)

[handysnaks]

I presume you like omlette?:p

[SilsoeSid]

A huge portion of Egg Fu Yeung coming your way MG.

If you contact Lincs and Notts AA (http://beehive.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=4781) or Virgin HEMS (http://www.hems-london.org.uk/career/careerHome.aspx) they will be able to sell you a new yellow or red 902.

http://www.secureonlineshopping.biz/papillontoys/site/richmond/images/rt_londonair.jpg

http://www.secureonlineshopping.biz/papillontoys/site/richmond/images/rt_lincsair.jpg

If you really want a blue/yellow one, contact the unit you may be thinking of and for a small donation to the Acorn Childrens Hospice Trust (www.acorns.org.uk) they will certainly provide you with one similar to the pics above. The price, minimum donation = £10.

As far as I'm aware, these are the only other 902s for sale and looking out the window, there aint no sticker in the windscreen!!

http://bestsmileys.com/cars/2.gif

SS

[quichemech]

902jon

Eagle plan is not the same as a turbomeca PBH. On a 902 the operator does generally own the engines and pays the eagle plan as a overhaul/repair type of cover. Or should I say that is the way I understand it :rolleyes: So md 600 has a point. :ok:

2 x 206. MGB.5 blades, MR head, Notar hub, Detent module, collective friction unit, that's just a start! You should make a profit! But then again Macs would would have worked that out:E

:{

[SilsoeSid]

Apparently there's an Explorer for sale in the UK... Is this the one?

http://www.geocities.com/pprunessilsoesid2/acornsmodel.jpeg

It would be in better detail, but I think this might identify which aircraft I think you think is being thought about being sold......which it isn't, I think !

:confused:
SS

[Simon853]

Silsoe,
Is that the varmit who likes hovering over my Oxfordshire home at 2 in the morning?

Si

[What Limits]

No, that's more likely to be the impossibly noisy EC135.

[Thomas coupling]

What Limits....you're right. It is now confirmed that the 902 is the class leader for minimum noise....................................................... ..................because there aren't any flying any more:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

I don't know which little birdie you are listening to TC, but I seem to be doing quite a lot of 5 flying hr night duties at the moment........and as for the locals, no complaints..( Apart of course from the bad'uns )...unlike the one from Simon853 which was a 135 anyway !!!!

We did have a phone call from a concerned citizen the other day, saying the aircraft had just flown overhead and sounding 'funny' making unusual noises. As it turned out it was our neighbours 135 on it's way back from somewhere else!

There seems to be quite a few 135s for sale around Europe, why is that?

http://bestsmileys.com/biting/5.gif

SS


p.s. Did you know that all male tennis players are witches?
For example, Goran, even he's a witch!

[MightyGem]

Is this the one
http://www.geocities.com/pprunessilsoesid2/acornsmodel.jpeg
Well, we had a visit from a gentleman the other day, and he left us a model identical to that one. He also confirmed the rumour that I'd heard, prior to his arrival, about the one for sale.

He could have been wrong I suppose...but he did say it was his. :confused:

[FloaterNorthWest]

Mighty Gem,

Is it a private or Police 902?

FNW

[PANews]

-------------------------------------------------------
There seems to be quite a few 135s for sale around Europe, why is that?
-------------------------------------------------------



Possibly because the are around 470 of them out there ..

Even taking off the few 135s donked that leaves a fair number for the industry to trade between themselves.

You may probably find there are a lot of 109s, 350s, 355s for sale too. Something to do with high production levels and a desire for trade.


For the moment, the 900 has not got the numbers, barely 100.

It may never make it of course, but if the Patriarch CEO Lynn Tilton has anything to say about the matter that MAY change. Nothing to do with the wringing of hands and wishing or lying about the Explorer to gain success it needs to be dragged kicking and screaming there on the back of its own success properly gained and with a good clean maintenance background.

As the best in many fields it could make it. But .... not until truth replaces the lies. There is a swell in that direction but can it keep flowing?

You can fool some of the customers some of the time but it is clear from that 100/470 disparity you cannot fool them all the time.

[Thomas coupling]

And that list of serial numbers 00 - 100 is not in fact continuous, over 20 of these numbers have not seen the light of day, certainly not flying.
So that leaves 80 ish explorers flying around the......................................world:eek:

And how many now in the UK?


[Again, I wish to add that this is NOT a slur on the machine. I have never slagged off the a/c...it's the infrastructure supporting this innovative product that deserves all the slanging. And justifyably too.

[PANews]

Slightly off thread...

There was me thinking [and writing as if] times had changed and the Explorer was again on the up when in comes a none too clear press release...


MESA, AZ, Oct. 6, 2005 – MD Helicopters (MDHI) is bidding its MD Explorer for the U.S. Army's $1.3-billion Light Utility Helicopter Program.

"From the beginning, it has been clear that the MD Explorer is the single helicopter that meets the specifications of the LUH program on both variables of performance and price," said Lynn Tilton, Chief Executive Officer and founder of Patriarch Partners, LLC, an investment advisor who manages the funds that own a controlling interest in MDHI. "And, there has never been any doubt that we were going to go all-out to win this program in order to deliver to the US Army a helicopter widely known for its safety features and price/performance benefit," Tilton confirmed.

MDHI had been paired with Lockheed Martin, but since parting ways has made the commitment to move forward..........



There has been no release stating that the previous LUH arrangement was over....

SO WHERE DID THAT 'since parting' COME FROM?

It looks as if Lockheed Martin [LM] has called time on going with MDHI in pursuit of the LUH program only weeks after setting up camp.

Now if LM, presumably in possession of the full facts rather than any public domain spin, are either walking away or are being pushed away perhaps we will have to look at the apparently positive scenario again.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

What, you sold up and moved on Si ?

[SASless]

I had the pleasure of flying a 900 recently....very nice machine once you figure out how to get into the pilot's seat. Absolutely the smoothest and quietest machine I have ever flown.

[magbreak]

Compared to a Huey Sasless ANYTHING is quiet and smooth :O

[TJF97]

Was just wondering what happened to the L.A.A (HEMS) yesterday??

I heard it clipped one or several of the rotor blades and was grounded in South London while new ones were fitted??

TJF97

[Hilico]

I've been wondering what's happened to it over the past couple of months - for example, seen a 355 on the pad rather than the 902.