PDAs and Net access

[Telstar]

Hi, I need to get a PDA to run some software I need fr work. I have had Palms in the past and would prefer one of these as they are a lot cheaper and I like them. However they are out, as the software I am obliged to use runs on windows pocket edition only.

Now, I have a decision to make. 1)I buy a secondhand and/or very basic one just to run the software on.2) Buy an all singing all dancing £600 one with Sat Nav and cell phone built in with 1000 functions I know I will never need or use 3)Get something like an O2 XDA

I wouldn't be against having an XDA/Blackberry type of thing. But to be honest I don't want such a big and bulky thing with me all the time. But I would like occasinal access to the net to check my e-mails.

What I would ultimately suit me is a basic enough PDA with wireless utilities.

So assuming I have a bluetooth cell phone on a standard 02 UK pay monthly number, what is required in getting the PDA and phone to connect to the internet?

I am thinking of going for something like this:Dell (http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/axim_x50_416?c=ie&cs=iedhs1&l=en&s=dhs)

Any other reccomendations or things to look out for?

[Conan the Librarian]

Guess who got the one two up from there? My own Dell X51V arrved this morning and still works! Wireless coverage is very good and am just about to try and Bluetooth up to the phone now. Will get back to you tomorrow and let you know how it goes.

Conan

[Telstar]

Thanks you Conan, I will be eagerly awaiting your "findings" :ok:

[Conan the Librarian]

More research needed, as I have had a bit of fun bonding the two devices on Bluetooth. I cannot currently get the right passcode for the phone, but all looks quite good really, other than that.

I am quite impressed with the Dell in other areas though. The GPS receiver arrives tomorrow if it can find its way here, but for multi media use it is doing very well indeed.

Will come back later on when I have sorted out the bluetooth.


Conan

[Conan the Librarian]

Seems so! First time I have really had any need to use Bluetooth and now, it is all tickety boo. Just have to get the dial up settings from my ISP which I was hoping to do today, but time has run away... I must be really having some fun somewhere and if anyone knows where, please send a postcard, to



Conan

PS I will revert once the thing is working ok, but I have watched surprisingly good quality Television on the thing last night via the web. Funky :-)

[Telstar]

Conan, so you have to have a dial up account with an ISP? IS there anyother way to check e-mails on the go with a PDA?

[Conan the Librarian]

Exactly what I will be finding out tomorrow. I use broadband at home and can access easily enough there, but when ut and about, I suppose I will have to see what the ISP says for procedure when dialling in through a mobile/pda setup.

I know I am being slow on this one, but haven't done anything remotely like this before and so need wisdom form Ppruners just as much as you do :-) In the mean time though, I shall call them tomorrow to see what is what.

Conan

[SyllogismCheck]

When I spoke to Orange about net access via my mobile (from a laptop in my case but still connecting to the phone via bluetooth etc) they told me the only solution was to use the GPRS modem in my phone on a £ per megabyte basis. I asked if I could use a conventional 'penny a minute' or '£X a month' type dial up number but they said that mobiles were incapable of moving data from these in the way a landline can.
Now, this may be their standard response so that they get a nice little income from data connections and I haven't actually tried a low rate/free phone dial up number as I don't have a dial up account to give the phone a number to dial into but if it is possible it would certainly be a cheaper option to pay for the duration of calls to such a number than the £3 per megabyte that Orange charge for GPRS data transfer (Not an issue to me as I rarely use it).

Anyway, to get to the point. If you can't use a conventional dial up number and have to connect via GPRS then you'll need to the number to command the modem in your phone to dial. I don't know about other networks but this is *99# for Orange, with no username and no password, all the billing information is sorted out by their end seeing your phone connect.

The one piece of information they didn't give me, and which took me an age to figure out, well about an hour of Googling, was that there's a command line needed for the GPRS modem in the advanced tab of the properties for the GPRS modem (once installed) under modems in control panel. In my case the line is

AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","orangeinternet"

I've no idea what this line does or what it means. I found it on a forum on which there were different lines for different mobile networks. Unfortunately I'm unable to remember which forum, but perhaps a Google of the line itself will turn up the page and hence those for other networks.

Hopefully, even if the information itself is irrelevant for other networks, just knowing you may need such a command may save you some of the frustrating head scratching I did when all didn't spring to life as it should have.

[Telstar]

So, GRPS, I am not up on my wireless terminology. How do I know if my phone is GRPS? Whats the difference between 8011b and "Integrated Wireless Bluetooth 1.2" which is what the PDA I have borrowed uses?

[spannersatcx]

8011B is wireless Bluetooth is bluetooth which is different to 8011B.

Bluetooth is an industry wide communication system that enables laptops to commumicate with phones and phones to communicate with headsets etc etc.

8011 is a pc specific wireless protocol, a wireless network at home would use this.

Most new mobiles have gprs, check with the manufacturer if your phone has it. As far as I know it is a system that mobiles use to hook up to the internet.

[Telstar]

Ok I geddit now. I looked up the services offered from my service provider. Bluetooth from PDA to Phone and then GRPS to the net.

Thing is its pretty damn expensive 1 Cent per Kilobyte. Well it sounds expensive but I suppose a few e-mails aren't going to use up more then a MB a month?

[SyllogismCheck]

Yep, the GPRS bit is how the phone communicates with the mobile network and transfers data to and from same. It's much like a phone connection only it remains open, not tying up the phone line and only moves data as and when demanded to, remaining idle, but standing by, the remainder of the time.

It's pretty safe to say that any mobile phone recent enough to have bluetooth will also have GPRS capability.

As I said in my previous post though, do look into the dial up option to a low rate/free phone account though as I'm sure this will prove cheaper, if it is in fact possible.

There are only really two steps to getting the set up working. The first getting your PDA talking to your phones built in modem by bluetooth and the second getting that modem connected to the net via either GPRS or dial up (?if it's possible?). You may also need to contact your phone service provider to activate data calls on your talk plan. Whilst talking to them get as much info on settings from them as you can.

[Conan the Librarian]

Thanks chaps! Hot footed it back here and find that you have saved me a load of typing. GPRS rates on Virgin mobile (UK) are a ridiculous .5p per KILOBYTE!!!!!!!!


Think that although I have a very good little PDA, that I will use available wireless networks to get my email through the ISPs Webmail facility. Seems the best route for me, especially seeing that mobile phone coverage here is, erm, rubbish.


Conan

[SyllogismCheck]

I must have been typing my reply as you posted Telstar. I wasn't intending to reconfirm what you'd already stated.

As a rough guide, if I connect via my mobile, read and reply to two or three emails, then read a good few internet pages whilst I'm at it I generally shift about 1/3 of a megabyte. So it costs around a £ to do so. As I say it's too expensive for heavy use, but the facilty to do it maybe twice a week or so (on those rare occasions when turning the laptop on doesn't result in it accidentally finding a wireless connection) is handy to have and worth the £8 or so it adds to my bill a month.

Must try the dial up option to see if that works soon though as call time is cheap by comparison.

[Telstar]

I looked at the "Extras" you can add on to your bill with O2, you can pay an extra tenner a month for a MB and a reduced rate for the KB there after. Its something I would only occasionaly use anyway.

A PDA/Phone would be nice, but they are just too big and too expensive. I think its a better comprimise to split the two.

[FJJP]

I bought a HP iPaq, with all the whistles and bells - well, at least wireless and bluetooth capable. Sitting in a hotel the other day, I idly selected wireless and got the hotel network, offering me internet connection, payable by credit card. As easy as that. It also connects through my home wireless network onto the net.

I also bought a bluetooth dongle but I haven't yet connected it all together yet...

[Conan the Librarian]

Yeah, it is all great. When you balance the benefits against the cost, you have to ask "Was it all worth it?" or "Are the telecom peeps taking us for a ride?"

If your comm is of strategic importance, then go for it. For those of us who need connectivity on an ad hoc basis, it is robbery.

hate to say this, but unless others are paying for it (strategic importance) then a hop onto an available wireless network, seems very good value. The device itself might be all capable and come with pleasing bells and whistles. For the occasional user, we are pointed towards piracy. There is something wrong here.

Waiting for the flak,

Conan

PS somewhat "Challenged" at present.

[ExGrunt]

Basics you need to know (Simplified):

There are two ways telephones transmit data:

a. Circuit switched This is the traditional method of using a telephone where you get a dedicated connection between the caller and the receiver and it is charged per time period.

b. Packet switched Here the data is split into packets and mixed with other users packets on shared circuits and reassembled at the receivers end. It is charged on a per packet, measured in kb, basis.

So what

General Packet Radio Service (GPRS) uses packet switching and in my experience is over priced and very expensive.

I started using mobile data before GPRS was available. I have found that using a circuit switched data calls work out cheaper. Typically to download my emails takes a minute or so and costs 10p ish. For this I get a theoretical 9.6kb * 60 seconds = 576kb. Now the reality is that a fair chunk of this is used in message overhead, but even assuming half goes on overhead that is still 288kb for 10p or 34.7p per Mb.

So how do I set up an analogue modem?

To give exhaustive setup instructions for bluetooth PDA dialup would take too much space but nokia produce Support Guide for the Nokia Bluetooth Enabled Phones with Compaq iPAQ which is available here (http://www.nokia.co.uk/nokia/0,,20871,00.html?applicationId=274&prodSupAppID=1&productId=32&categoryId=17&languageId=1) which is a good guide - follow the set up dial up instructions.

You may need to data enable your SIM card, this will mean calling your mobile service provider and asking for the phone to be data enabled. (If they are ar$y about this say you want to send faxes from your laptop and it can only use an analogue modem). Symptoms of a non data enabled phone are once you are set up the connection is dropped just after the modem dials.

I hope this helps

EG

[SyllogismCheck]

So would that enable you to call into a freephone or low rate ISP dial up service from your mobile then, ExGrunt?
That's what Orange told me couldn't be done. If it can though, are you billed as per a conventional call (obviously mobile rates to freephone/low call numbers differ from those for landlines but that aside) or do you pay a different tarrif for a 'data' call? It seems to me they must be able to telll the difference between the two types of call or you wouldn't need the network to enable the function.

I do remember making a dial up data call years ago via a mobile and the phone displaying a 'D' icon as I did so, but that was on a mobile phone which had an analogue modem in it. Don't most current mobiles only have GPRS modems?

It's a bit of a minefield this area when it comes to finding the best value it seems.

[Telstar]

This is all very educational and interesting, I am learning a lot. Thanks everybody!

[ExGrunt]

@SyllogismCheck:

So would that enable you to call into a freephone or low rate ISP dial up service from your mobile then
Yes you can call them, but they are billed at a data rate which for me is 10p min. For example to call Demon I enter:

+44 845 212 0666

I have used this successfully all over Europe and from the UAE (But the price goes up!)

I do remember making a dial up data call years ago via a mobile and the phone displaying a 'D' icon as I did so, but that was on a mobile phone which had an analogue modem in it.
That is exactly what happens on my Nokia 6310i - whether it uses GPRS or analogue depends on how you configure the PDA.

Hope this helps.

EG

[Telstar]

Seems very cheap, and I don't need the cell phone function, for about $100 to my doorstep seems like a good deal, what do you think? Bear in mind I just need to run this one piece of software!

Edit: Link won't work, toshiba 2032 selling for about $70 on ebay. Worth it?

Item number:5826381479

[Wing Commander Fowler]

....... and if you happen to be based in Shannon, screw eircom as the hot spot there is free!!! Yippeeeeee!

[Saab Dastard]

I have recently been working on a mobility project for my company.

Using a Windows Mobile phone (PDA), I can access any Wireless Network (work, home or public hotspot) then connect through a secure VPN tunnel to our Corporate LAN.

This is incredibly cheap - Public WIFI hotspots (BT Openzone & affiliates in the UK) cost 1p per minute!

In fact, it is so cheap that our Telco division wants to use the WIFI connection to run VOIP to our corporate voice network as it works out CHEAPER than making a mobile phone call!

So instead of using a mobile phone to support data transfer over a voice network, we may soon be using the mobile phone as a data device to run voice calls. This is going to confuse the hell out of the poor end-users!

Of course, the device has a GPRS-enabled SIM card, so outside WIFI coverage it is possible to make ordinary mobile calls and use GPRS for data - but as others have pointed out, this is sickeningly expensive.

The reason that GPRS / 3G is so expensive is because of the vast sums that were spent acquiring the licences in the great Government auction a few years ago.

[SyllogismCheck]

Thanks ExGrunt. :ok:

That's what I thought. Shame such calls can't use 'free' inclusive talk minutes.
At the rate I type it'd cost me more to pay by the minute (since it takes me about 10 to type a short email) than paying 'by data' on GPRS as I do now.