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shiftkeying
6th Nov 2005, 19:54
Seems like 2 Jags/3 houses wants to claw back Gordon Brown's 10 billion quid black hole all by himself,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/06/ntax06.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/11/06/ixportaltop.html

I've already been dicked as I live in Wales but if I lived in England I'd be bricking up my windows and removing chimney stacks asap!

Astrodome
6th Nov 2005, 23:28
This is possibly a little 'kite flying' which the Bliarites are good at, however one nevers knows.

One fact is absolutely certain and without dispute, and that is that the amount of tax we ALL pay will rise, sooner rather than later.

We already are now almost the highest taxed Country in the EU, but much of the tax we pay is 'Stealth Tax'.

G-CPTN
6th Nov 2005, 23:46
Previous Rateable Value considered items such as central heating as assets and meritted a higher rateable value (and a higher payment). Property values (according to Estate Agents parameters) recognise the benefit of such things as outlook (rural views) so it isn't beyond comprehension to tax these.

Jerricho
6th Nov 2005, 23:46
Will trees count? What if you plant some trees in front of your windows that block the view? What if they were ugly trees?

Astrodome
7th Nov 2005, 00:00
The situation is that for years now Bliar and Brown have been increasing the amount of service provision required of local authorities whilst reducing central Government support.

They have also capped Conservative authorities by diverting funding towards Labour Councils.

Add to this the pensions fiasco, and there you have it...in a VERY simplified summary.

Do you realise that since coming to power Council tax has DOUBLED under Bliar's Labour ?

G-CPTN
7th Nov 2005, 00:18
>Will trees count?

No, it's just the tobacco that counts . . .

Marvin the Robot
7th Nov 2005, 06:42
What if the air around your house is fresher than elsewhere?

woptb
7th Nov 2005, 07:32
Go back & take a look in which 'newspaper' this was published,if it happens you can have my view!

Momo
7th Nov 2005, 08:24
The UK is in fact among the lowest-taxed countries.

Here is an extract from the article at http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/europeanuniontaxationstructuressystems.htm


Noticeable differences in the tax-to-GDP ratio and in the tax mixes are also present among the EU- 15 Member States. Regarding the total tax burden from the first (Sweden) to the last (Ireland) of the rank there is a difference of 22 percentage points. Highest tax ratios are found in Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and Finland whilst the lowest appears in Ireland, the UK, Spain Greece and Portugal. Some of the Nordic countries (i.e. Sweden, Denmark and Finland) have relatively high shares of direct taxes in total tax revenues, whereas some southern countries (in particular, Portugal and Greece) have relatively high shares of indirect taxes compared to the EU average. In Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland the shares of social contributions to total tax revenues are relatively low, whereas these shares are relatively high in Germany and, to a lesser extent, in France. More details on the structures of the taxation systems (by more detailed type of tax) in individual Member States are given in the country annexes in part III of this publication.

Tricky Woo
7th Nov 2005, 08:27
How about a brick tax?

What a boon for the quantity surveyor industry! And what a great way to measure personal wealth! Say one tax quid per taxable brick, per annum. Not much to discuss if yer apply a brick tax, is there? Also this would be a good excuse to get around to unbricking all those windows, and knocking down a few crumbly garden walls, oh and go through yer garden removing half-bricks from those rusty prams.

Sometimes, I have to admit it. If there were more people like me running this world, it'd be a far more sensible and logical place.

TW

acbus1
7th Nov 2005, 08:30
Would that come under joint tax?

tony draper
7th Nov 2005, 08:57
One has made this suggetion on previous occasions but tiz worth repeating for its stunning cuningness,tax blokes on willy length, let then self assess, one tends to think chaps would finish up paying much more tax to the exchecker than is neccesary.

:rolleyes:

Tax inspector
"Mr Woo we have our inspectors report on your taxable assets,you will be pleased to hear you are entitled to a large rebate"

:E

surely not
7th Nov 2005, 08:59
Momo how can you introduce facts into this thread?:E Don't you realise that the truth has **** all to do with this thread, it is merely an excuse to have the usual rant and bu!!sh*t at the P.M. and Labour. This has to happen as the Tories don't have any policies worth talking about other than the perenniel fairy story about how all services can be improved by giving them less money.

I don't support Labour, but find them less odious than the Tories overall.

Tricky Woo
7th Nov 2005, 09:25
Would like to continue to contribute to this thread, Herr D, but as you know there's a super pirate thread running at the mo', and one can never resist a good swashbuckly pirate thread.

Shiver me timbers! Avast ye! Shoot below the waterline, lads!

A-har!

TW

mccdatabase
7th Nov 2005, 09:31
If you want to talk about odious I do not think that you could do better than the lying, cheating, stealing bunch of con men that we call "The New Labour Government". Taxation has soared under this bunch of incompetents, not income tax or anything so transparent, but the relentless rise of the insidious stealth taxes that Comrade Gordon is so fond of, pensions are in crisis because of Labour, Council tax has doubled because of Labour, driving your car costs more(and just wait until they bring in road pricing!!) because of labour , the whole economy of the UK is based on personal debt and before too long the we will all be forced to pay the price of the economic mismanagement of a truely shameful government who will go down in history as the biggest bunch of LIARS who have ever "conned their way into power!!

Rainboe
7th Nov 2005, 10:46
.......and Old Labour is waiting in the wings itcghing to take over when Blair is finally forced out! We are doomed. Taxation like nothing we have seen will be on the way then.

surely not
7th Nov 2005, 11:18
and the Tories don't know whether they are new or old!!!

So let me think back............. Thatcher encouraged people to buy their council houses then did nothing as interest rates climbed and repo's soared; the tories introduced stealth tax (VAT) on childrens clothing and so it goes on.

Neither Tories or Labour can claim to spend the money without waste, and both need to raise money to keep the country ticking over, and that method is called taxation.

Please enlighten me, which taxes do you consider to be 'stealth' taxes, and which are new, because it seems to me that the term is used frequently without any defining limits.

Nick Riviera
7th Nov 2005, 12:11
surely not

Children's clothing is VAT free. Any more falsehoods you would like to spread?

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 12:23
Well depends on whose having the kids. The most seem to be produced by the kids on benefits who learned about sex homosexuality and oral sex at school at the age of about seven and eight, then found out about council houses and the ammount of beni's having kids could bring about. All good government policies. Beside can't have the government annoying potential supporters and voters can we. Voters who surprisingly will not be paying any tax themselves. Oh dear so sorry does that sound a tad predjudiced, un PC, or even gasp slightly Con.. con.. con.. sorry sorry please excuse.

Leftpedal
7th Nov 2005, 12:54
mccdatabase - that would be 'bunch of incompetents' not 'incompetants'..... nice balanced post by the way.

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 12:57
Smacks of the sort of rant one used to hear yesteryear from those presently in power when they were the opposition. Has a certain reminscent ring to it doesn't it.:ok:

mccdatabase
7th Nov 2005, 13:15
Spelling correction noted ! sorry about that but I was the product of Labours failed education policies in the 70s before they were booted out as failures then, hope its not too long before this lot are sent packing the same way !! The electorate surely cannot be hoodwinked ever again by the "New Labour " spin and lies

woptb
7th Nov 2005, 13:22
Suggest thread title change to - Margaret's unrequited sex slave love bitches! OR Re-writing history,a Tory perspective.

surely not
7th Nov 2005, 14:09
you must have had a very short time in education then mcdatabase because the 70's was shared.

Edward Heath, Conservative, 1970-74 and Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan, Labour, 1974-79, then Margaret Thatcher, Conservative, 1979- too long, were the main players...............so at 5 years each you should blame both parties!!

The 60's were also pretty much a draw in terms of years in office for each party. So any failing you have is probably down to you :E

mccdatabase
7th Nov 2005, 16:45
I just remember my Grammar school going comprehensive when I was in the third year and the school went downhill because all the best teachers left, if my memory serves me correctly I think Comprehensive schools were a Labour idea

woptb

I believe the great Lady T was probably the best prime Minister this country ever had (after Winston C) things were much better in her era so show some respect !!

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 16:52
Sorry woptb your suggestion "Suggest thread title change to - Margaret's unrequited sex slave love bitches! OR Re-writing history,a Tory perspective." is unfortunately not accepted as you are presently a fluffy little hampster running round and round in an icle wheel. With us of course.:ok: :p

acbus1
7th Nov 2005, 16:57
thing were much beter in her era
Unless you needed a job.

Or fell ill and weren't in BUPA.

Or had toothache and needed a dentist without taking out a mortgage to pay the theiving :mad:

Jerricho
7th Nov 2005, 16:58
Will you get a rebate if you have butt-ugly neighbours?

mccdatabase
7th Nov 2005, 17:05
acbus 1 I fell into all those categories at some time during her term of office and things were still better than now!!

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 17:08
Bloody hell Jerricho that was enough to get the PC PC down on you.

Please remember to use the term 'attractivenousely challenged" a huge contortion I know however it just is totally unacceptable to call them butt-ugly. Just remember there are hoops to be jumped through contortions to be performed and spines to be bent in this 'Brave new World' of ours. And if it isn't there invent it.

Astrodome
7th Nov 2005, 21:02
From elsewhere on that website.
On the other hand, Denmark (60.5%), the United Kingdom (44.2%) and Finland (42.9%) had relatively high shares of direct taxes.

Surely Not So let me think back............. Thatcher encouraged people to buy their council houses then did nothing as interest rates climbed and repo's soared; the tories introduced stealth tax (VAT) on childrens clothing and so it goes on. Do yourself and everyone else a favour and actually do some research first before making comments that make you look stupid eh??

Please enlighten me, which taxes do you consider to be 'stealth' taxes, and which are new, because it seems to me that the term is used frequently without any defining limits. My pleasure.
Almost a decade ago, in the long run up to Labour's landslide 1997 victory, Tony Blair told us he had “no plans to increase tax at all”.

Since 1997 Labour has brought in 157 tax-raising measures. That's according to economic think-tank The Institute for Fiscal Studies.

The Government is scooping an extra 2.1 per cent of national income in revenues than it was when Labour came to power, equivalent to £26.4 billion. (2005 value)

These stealth taxes are so called because they allow the Government to raise billions of pounds, while still making ministers appear at first glance to be cutting tax.

Many stealth taxes can be slipped past because of their complexity, with politicians relying on the fact that most people won't understand the effect of technical tax changes.

A classic, and early, example came in Chancellor Gordon Brown's first budget in July 1997, with the abolition of the so-called ACT tax credit. This change meant that personal and occupational pension funds could no longer reclaim advanced corporation tax, costing them £5 billion a year. It slipped past most pension savers unnoticed, but its effect has been to slash the future retirement incomes of almost every one of us with pension savings.

Other stealth taxes are even more cunning, and because they result from the Government failing to stop the tax-take rising, rather than actively snatching it.

The failure to increase income tax thresholds in line with average earnings means there are 1.3 million more people paying the top rate of 40 per cent tax in 2004-5 than there were in 1996-7, when only 2.1 million paid it. Instead the threshold has been uplifted only in line with inflation, which tends to rise more slowly than average earnings.

By the 2009-10 tax year, for example, the higher rate tax threshold is predicted to be only 133 per cent of average earnings, pulling 4.2 million people within the higher-rate net.

Another move by Brown was to freeze the personal tax-free allowance at £4,615 from 2002-3 to 2003-4, effectively setting back even inflationary increases by one year.

When Labour came to power stamp duty was charged at 1 per cent on all properties costing over £60,000. That starting threshold remains unchanged, even though figures from the Halifax bank show the cost of the average property has shot up by 139 per cent per cent, from £68,085 in May 1997 to £162,816 today. If it had been uprated in line with house price inflation, only those buying houses worth around £143,000 or more would pay stamp duty.
Stamp duty now affects three quarters of first-time buyers, according to the Council of Mortgage Lenders, compared with around a quarter when Labour came to power.
In addition, Labour has increased the stamp duty for properties costing over £250,000 to 3 per cent, and bumped the duty up to 4 per cent for properties costing over £500,000. The duty is paid on the whole cost of the house, and not just the part falling into each band.

Inheritance tax is another tax which was once only of concern to the rich, but which now threatens many ordinary families, as a result of the threshold (now £263,000 ) failing to keep up with house prices.

Council tax has been the fastest rising tax over Labour's first two terms, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, with the average household almost £232 a year worse off, compared to 1997.

Other stealth tax tricks include announcing tax-cutting measures a couple of years early (that way you can announce them twice!), while replacement tax increases arrive sooner.

Brown's 1999 budget, for example, announced that married couple's allowance would be scrapped, but that a new children's tax credit would be introduced. But while the married couple's allowance was to go in April 2000, the children's tax credit would not be brought in until a year later.

In addition, millions of married couples would not receive the new tax credit, either because they failed the means-test, or they had no school-age children.

In 1996-7, the main rate of employees National Insurance was 10 per cent, paid on earnings between £3,172 and £23,660 a year, with those earning over £3,172 paying 2 per cent on that first chunk of their income. Because any earnings over £23,660 a year did not attract national insurance, it was effectively capped at a maximum payment of £2,112.24 that year. Today the lower 2 per cent charge has gone, but the main rate is charged at 11 per cent on a much wider band of earnings - between £4,732 and £31,720 – and is no longer capped, with a 1 per cent charge on everything over £31,720.


If you want the full list of 93 (current) stealth taxes please ask.

woptb
7th Nov 2005, 22:30
"I believe the great Lady T was probably the best prime Minister this country ever had (after Winston C) things were much better in her era so show some respect !!"

WOPTB doffs his! cap, backing away from mccdatabase smiling obsequiously, "Sorry for slighting the old girl" 'he mutters nervously licking his lips', all the while reaching for the silenced Makarov that all reds keep tucked in a sock - "LOOK OUT OLD MAN!"
Mccdatabase never hears the gentle sigh of the Makarov.
In true Citizen Kane style his last whispered words are "Maggie.....".
WOPTB turns up the collar of his Mackintosh, walks away tunelessly whistling the Red flag,his evil work done!

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 22:37
"I believe the great Lady T was probably the best prime Minister this country ever had (after Winston C) things were much better in her era so show some respect !!"

It is difficult to know whether to laugh or cry at that one. :confused:

surely not
8th Nov 2005, 07:36
MacD it might surprise you to learn that I agree with your comment re the Thatch if we are talking about her first term in office only.
However IMO she lost the plot big time during her 2nd term, and believed the adulation of all the sycophants she had around her after she had disposed of any dissenters in the ranks. She lost a lot of floating supporters for the Tories in her 2nd and 3rd terms, and these supporters are not showing any sign of wanting to rejoin a Tory party that is marginalised in its policies.

Ok, I made a mistake re childrens clothing, but I think I am right when I say that there was a plan to tax childrens clothing but it was abandoned when it became clear that this would be hugely unpopular.

Astrodome, I will post as I please thanks. I thank you for the list, and I am working through it slowly as I have a job to do as well :D I take it you are politically active to be able to reel these off, but that doesn't mean that there isn't another angle to them.

acbus1
8th Nov 2005, 08:21
Mega post. Astrodome! :ok:

Labour....bunch of theiving :mad:

Conservatives were no better when they were in power. I distictly remember all the media outcry about stealth taxes at the election they lost.


The problem is, a big chunk of the UK population are oblivious to this theivery, the electoral system is rubbish, there's no accountability, no incentive, so the whole sorry mess just rumbles on.

We need some French rioters to pay a visit to Downing Street. :mad:

mccdatabase
8th Nov 2005, 08:38
WOPTB

The evil agent of the "Grinning Monkey Blair" and his Sinister Organ Grinder "Greedy Gordon" with henchmen Two Jags Fat Bas*ard and Mandy Pandy ooh get you ducky. WOPTB would be happy to hand his ?? "hard earned" cash (only WHY should he have to work??) to these "Good Fellows" who will re dstribute it to the "More Needy"who flock to our shores to spawn their illegitmate offspring with "Father Unknown" and collect their weekly pocketful of "Rights" kindly donated by those of us fooish enough to still believe that work = dinity and "SELF SUFFICIENCY"
WOPTB laughs at these mugs and sets off for the benefit office for another fortnights worth of beer and fag tokens life is sweet under the Grinning Monkey as long as the organ Grinder plays WOPTB s favourite tunes

Zoom
8th Nov 2005, 09:39
Taxing the view, eh? So presumably tenants on the upper floors of council high rise apartment blocks will pay the most, then.........not!

Nice post, Astrodome. Good to see some facts rather than the usual pro-Labour 'it was cr*p xxx years ago so we'll just make it worse' theme.

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 10:06
A view from a council property cannot be taxed since the subsidised property has free view as part of the perks. All part of the service.

Nick Riviera
8th Nov 2005, 12:09
surely not

You can condemn a party for wanting to do something but not actually doing it? Fantastic! That gives us all countless ammunition to lie about anything we want to concerning what the government is planning.

Seriously, I have rarely seen a sadder attempt to smear a party than this.

simon brown
8th Nov 2005, 12:44
Its the same with any party they are all the same shower of incompetant shisters whichever their colour. Just swallow the bitter pill and increase our income tax. We are not stupid we all know the score.

It easier to swallow than paying another tax just because I can view the "Hanging Gardens of Babylon" from my living room or have the audacity to have a large patio or a few trees in my garden which , as we know has absoloutely nothing to do with funding policing, local education and rubbish collection. You might as well tax someone on whether they have hair or not ( thats me in for a rebate)
Besides the view is reflected in the houses value...which has a bearing on the size of the stamp duty which a is tax for the government so we would be taxed twice.

Its all Daily Mail bull anyway.

I know one thing, if bullsh1t was taxed, Prescott would be in trouble.

If the govt spent less time giving handouts to the lazy, feckless chavs who want everything done for them ..bang out chavvies 10 to the dozen even when they are on benefit, then taxes could be spent elsewhere.

I resent my hard earned going towards funding such types as well as bumbling incompetents with fat salaries and expense accounts at local and national level bleeding us all dry.

Get rid of half the lard arsed, incompetent institutionally complacent civil servants and that would save a few quid too.

This is what happens when a once proud industrialised nation whos wealth depended on manufacturing becomes a poxy little has been island owned and run by foreigners whose government has to fine and tax all its citizens in order to fund the feckless and incompetant

Rant over

G-CPTN
8th Nov 2005, 13:36
Just WHAT does the Fat Controller DO?

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 13:58
The concept of tax has been accepted for centuries, it is what is done with those taxes that is contentious. The policy of the present government to pad the voting roles by flooding the country with those who owe their daily bread to benefits and public service employment is one bone that sticks in the gullet a bit.

Both these percentages have increased sharply since they came to power. Surprise, not at all. It was as inevitable as the rise in taxes of those who are expected to fund this wheeze.