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Sensible Garage
6th Nov 2005, 07:42
from FAA's prelims:

11/03/2005 2325 COLORADO SPRINGS, CO UPS28 B757 I UNKN 0 ACFT, UPS28, A B757, ENROUTE FROM SDF TO MHR, STRUCK A GOOSE AT FL360. ACFT DESCENDED TO FL280, DUE TO THE WINDSHIELD BEING CRACKED AND CONTINUED ON TO DESTINATION. PILOT DID NOT DECLARE AN EMERGENCY. OVER COLORADO SPRINGS, CO

is this actually possible?

Halcyon Days
6th Nov 2005, 08:30
I can remember years ago a 1-11 hitting a large bird at 31000 feet and while filling in the birdstrike form I asked the Captain what type of bird he thought it might have been he said
quick as a flash " Couldnt tell old chap-it had an oxygen mask on!!"

ZQA297/30
6th Nov 2005, 10:23
S'obvious, innit?

Had to be a turbo-goose.:ok:

Jump Complete
6th Nov 2005, 10:40
Continuing with a cracked windscreen after hitting a large bird does not seem very sensible.

G-CPTN
6th Nov 2005, 11:03
Was it head-on or catch-up?
The witness mark should confirm.

ATN
6th Nov 2005, 11:07
What happened to the goose ?

G-CPTN
6th Nov 2005, 11:08
>What happened to the goose ?

Presumably it changed to a lower cruising height.

sinala1
6th Nov 2005, 11:21
Presumably it changed to a lower cruising height
:E :E

click
6th Nov 2005, 12:34
Musta've been a Canadian Goose...catching up to the gander...:E

Brain Potter
6th Nov 2005, 14:42
I heard a story of a Nimrod that hit a rather large bird just after take-off. The captain informed the rear crew that they had hit a goose and asked for a damage report. One of the signallers replied "Well put it this way Captain - I don't think it will fly again!" :O

Oshkosh George
6th Nov 2005, 15:41
Continuing with a cracked windscreen after hitting a large bird does not seem very sensible.

He has surely to fly somewhere,and it could very well have been the nearest airfield. Without information,yours is a nonsensicle reply!

Farmer 1
6th Nov 2005, 15:53
"Nonsensicle."

Now, that's a nice word. I really like that word, it's a word I could look at all day and never tire of it. It lets my imagination wander at will, allowing all sorts of images to flutter in and rest awhile before fluttering out. A bit nonsensical, I know, but it's a lovely word.

stue
6th Nov 2005, 16:04
Dont get out much Farmer 1 do we??:)

Oshkosh George
6th Nov 2005, 16:04
Yes,I'm sorry,you spelt it correctly,nonsensicAL.:*

African Tech Rep
6th Nov 2005, 16:16
Without wanting to start a fight – it seems it happened over Colorado and he was going to Sacramento, California, - to be more precise
Name: Sacramento Mather Airport
ICAO / IATA: KMHR / MHR

I’ll let others decide how sensible the decision was – only noting that I don’t think he had LOTS of pax to worry about and could determine the size of crack a bit better than us.

Oshkosh George
6th Nov 2005, 16:32
and could determine the size of crack a bit better than us.

Now then,let's try and keep our mind on the subject!:cool:

Jetstream Rider
6th Nov 2005, 16:33
In the 757 a cracked front pane does not affect the structural integrity of the widscreen. Carrying on may well have been a very sensible thing to do.

wdh
6th Nov 2005, 17:22
Goose vs B757 at FL360
...
is this actually possible?

It would be possible, over the Himalayas, but it'd be setting a new record for the US of A, and nearly for the world, if it were true.

I must wonder as to the basis of identification.
Which of course would become important, if there were records being set...
I had thought North American Geese were pretty rare above 10,000 feet?

I see from http://magazine.audubon.org/birds/birds0011.html that Bar Headed Geese migrate annually over Mt Everest... they are approx 5lb birds btw, small for geese.
That article gives the US record as a Mallard Duck, struck at a mere 21,000 ft. Whereas the World Record is a 10ft wingspan vulture, hit at an awesome 37,900 ft...

So, it IS a very good question as to whether a Goose could have been at 36,000 over Colarado Springs...

JW411
6th Nov 2005, 17:41
Apart from the major fact that I have absolutely no idea as to whether or not a goose can breath at 36,000 feet without an oxygen mask, why should a goose not be at that height over Colorado?

That neck of the woods is renowned for standing wave and I'm sure the wave there goes much higher than that. The UK gliding record is near 34,000 feet in wave (Aboyne) and we don't have anything like the hills they have in America.

Why would a goose be in standing wave I hear you cry? It is very simple. The more you have to flap your wings the more tired you become and therefore the more food you have to find to stay alive. Therefore, assuming your body is capable of surviving at such altitudes, can you just imagine how far a goose could glide without even twitching its a*se from 36.000 ft!

My highest bird strike was at 19,000 feet over Germany at night descending into Cologne. We were between 8/8ths layers above and below so whatever we hit (with a very large and loud bang) was not map reading or using a sun gun!

My biggest bird strike was on finals at Masirah. We hit a sea eagle (2 metre wingspan) and it went right through the d - box back to the mainspar.

Check 6
6th Nov 2005, 17:57
I believe that it did have a down jacket on.

:E

Farmer 1
6th Nov 2005, 18:04
I wouldn't say No to a goose at FL360.

singpilot
6th Nov 2005, 18:37
The wave over the Rockies has been strong the last few days. Would not be surprised to discover that a goose had ridden up that high. I would say twice a year we have to disconnect the autothrottles due to the severity of the wave. Yesterday was the first time this year.

JW411
6th Nov 2005, 18:42
Check 6:

I would say that that is eider here nor there!

lomapaseo:

"All high altitude bird strikes have been disproved".

Where are you when we need you?

Oshkosh George
6th Nov 2005, 19:18
I would say that that is eider here nor there!

ROFLMAO! I can see "Jet Blast" looming!
Oh,that really made me quack up!

sikeano
6th Nov 2005, 19:24
_________________________________________

I wouldn't say No to a goose at FL360

_________________________________________

i wouldn't say no to any bird at any fl they are good fillings of course
:ouch:

Ranger 1
6th Nov 2005, 19:29
Sounds like a lucky escape to be striking one at 36,000, strike one at ground level can cause a great deal of damage, strike more than one it could be your last Birdstrike.:(

wdh
6th Nov 2005, 19:52
JW411Apart from the major fact that I have absolutely no idea as to whether or not a goose can breath at 36,000 feet without an oxygen mask, why should a goose not be at that height over Colorado?

Bar-headed Geese (Anser Indicus) *do* go above 30,000 feet.
But they live in India and migrate over the Himalayas to and from Tibet.
Not North America.

The Canada Goose (Branta Canadensis) is a rather different beast. Its about double the weight of the Bar-Headed Goose for a start, and doesn't have its very high altitude adaptation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3755960&dopt=Abstract

Canada Geese are said to have been seen "as high as 9,000 feet" when migrating. Which seems to say that they have *never* ever been recorded above 1/4 the height of this incident.
Since they famously migrate in tight V-formations for aerodynamic efficiency (rotating the lead position like racing cyclists), isn't it *un*likely that you'd suffer a *single* strike, if you ran into migrating geese?

cwatters
6th Nov 2005, 20:16
Anyone collect DNA from the impact point?

smith
6th Nov 2005, 21:31
The highest bird strike reported to date occurred on November 29, 1973, at 37 000 feet. It involved the collision of a commercial jet airliner and a Ruppeli's Griffon Vulture which was flying over Abijan, Ivory Coast. Another reported bird strike occurred at 33 000 feet involving a goose and a Pan Am Boeing 747.

Source: http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/aerodrme/birdstke/manual/d/d11.htm

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Aerodrome/WildlifeControl/menu.htm

PAXboy
6th Nov 2005, 21:57
Looks like the goose missed the first RA and then ... Could the pilot confirm it's registration number, so that it can be reported?

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

Jerricho
6th Nov 2005, 22:51
Stupid non RVSM equipped geese, ruining it for everyone else.

G-CPTN
6th Nov 2005, 23:30
>Since they famously migrate in tight V-formations for aerodynamic efficiency (rotating the lead position like racing cyclists), isn't it *un*likely that you'd suffer a *single* strike, if you ran into migrating geese?

If there was just one then it was a swan . . .

wdh
6th Nov 2005, 23:31
OOOOPS smith!

The highest bird strike reported to date occurred on November 29, 1973, at 37 000 feet. It involved the collision of a commercial jet airliner and a Ruppeli's Griffon Vulture which was flying over Abijan, Ivory Coast. Another reported bird strike occurred at 33 000 feet involving a goose and a Pan Am Boeing 747.

I thought this was supposed to be a *professional* rumour site...

If you are going to simply re-post something that appeared on another forum nearly 4 years ago,
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-53144.html
it is incumbent on you to at least check that the associated link still works.
Your first one doesn't.

Oh, and if you do plagiarise something, its inaccuracies will come back to haunt you!
It was a Ruppell's vulture, NOT a Ruppeli's vulture... which makes the source easy to track.


Now - where is the Pan Am Goose story? I haven't found it yet.
Apart from that 2001 forum posting, that is.


As far as I can tell, the US Record height for a bird is the Mallard, I referred to previously (when I also indicated the Ruppell's vulture story)
The Mallard is documented here: -
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v075n01/p0092-p0092.pdf

Altitude record for Mallard.
Recently the Operations Division of the Air Transport Association submitted for identification
one feather salvaged after an aircraft-bird strike.
It was a right primary, in good condition, and was determined by Mrs. Roxie C. Laybourne,
of our Bird and Mammal Laboratories, as coming from a Mallard (Anas platyrhynchos).
The strike occurred at 4:15 PM on 9 July 1962, between Battle Mountain and Elko,
Nevada. The plane, a Western Airlines 6188 Electra, was cruising at an air speed of
345 knots and an altitude of 21,000 feet. The bird was not seen by any of the crew, all of
whom were looking outside at the time. The pilot, Captain Markle Sparks of Los Angeles,
believed the bird was at a higher altitude than the plane, that it attacked the plane as it
approached, and lost control just before impact. He suspected an eagle as the only bird in
that area that could climb so high.
The pilot reported that he felt a light thud and about a minute later the stewardess came
forward and said that the passengers in the rear of the airplane felt a small explosion. Upon
landing, there was a dent in the leading edge of the right horizontal stabilizer about the
size of a football. It hit just at the side of a rib and there was a tear approximately 9 inches
long beside the rib. There was down around the tear, and the feather inside. There was no
blood nor any other indication that it was a bird that we had struck. The strike did not
cause any immediate change in the flight procedure, but did necessitate replacing a 5-foot
section of skin on the tail assembly.
Richard H. MANVILLE, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service,
Washington 25, D.C., 17 October 1962.


Now, smith, your link to the Transport Canada site *did* lead me to some migration maps.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Aerodrome/WildlifeControl/AIPHazards.htm

These suggest that the species expected in the area in question at the time of this incident would more likely be the 4lb Ross's Goose and the 8lb Lesser Snow Goose - and *not* the 14lb Canada Goose.
However, their flyways are indicated as being "up to 12,000 ft".

For this thing to have been at least 3x the expected altidude, is, ummm, rather surprising.

Its well-known that Bar-headed Geese routinely fly at 30,000 ft. But equally, its known that this is not just unusual, its unusual for geese.

So what IS the story about the Pan Am 747 and an FL 330 goose? True or internet myth?

G-CPTN
6th Nov 2005, 23:37
>So, it IS a very good question as to whether a Goose could have been at 36,000 over Colarado Springs...

It was white? It had wings? It was at 36,000 ft? You've hit an angel, mate!

Loose rivets
6th Nov 2005, 23:51
I wouldn't say No to a goose at FL360


Boo!


Boo is what you wouldn't say to a goose:}

Ranger 1
6th Nov 2005, 23:56
One thing for sure it was not under Swanwick's control.

OK, I'll get me coat :ouch:

Freeway
7th Nov 2005, 00:14
The first case this year of bird flew at 36,000ft!!:}

Jerricho
7th Nov 2005, 00:42
PANDEMIC!!! PANDEMIC!!! PANDEMIC!!!!

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

LuckyStrike
7th Nov 2005, 04:15
The only thing I have hit so far while travelling at 100mph is a bat flying at 4ft... Now beat that :}

Blacksheep
7th Nov 2005, 04:26
...that it attacked the plane as it...Not a Mallard then. With a temper like that, it sounds more like Daffy himself.

Check 6
7th Nov 2005, 05:11
Jerricho, if it was not RVSM equipped how was it able to maintain FL360? I will grant you it probably did not have TCAS.



:E

Lon More
7th Nov 2005, 06:51
how was it able to maintain FL360
Its wings were a blur. and it was obviously not maintaining a listening watch.
It wasn't squawking so no TCAS warning

BTW How do they know what sort of bird it was - beyond a dead one?

criticalmass
7th Nov 2005, 08:29
Given the sound and temperature insulation that goes into a 757 flight-deck, it might be a little difficult to actually hear a goose that was squawking, at any altitude. It would presumably need to squawk very loud, and besides, I seem to recall that geese prefer to honk rather than squawk anyway.

Which raises the question of just how noisy is a 757 flight-deck in cruise anyway, and should the FAA mandate a "757/767 flight-deck noise-abatement & amelioration program for enhanced auditory goose-detection" so any geese encountered squawking at any flight level have a better chance of being heard?

A program like that could conceivably keep an entire FAA section occupied for decades!

Jerricho
7th Nov 2005, 08:43
Who said it was maintaining? Probably going the wrong way as well.

Jhieminga
7th Nov 2005, 09:13
Has the Goose been linked to any revolutionary groups yet? Surely it must have had special training to get to that altitude! ;)

Anyway, he's stuffed now.

The Invisible Cat
7th Nov 2005, 09:23
Geese in wave at 18000 over the Rockies (http://www.silentflight.com/geese_at_18000ft.htm)
esp pic #385 & 386

ATN
7th Nov 2005, 09:26
The goose was not maintaining FL 360 ?

It was descending from FL 450 then ?

G-CPTN
7th Nov 2005, 10:16
>BTW How do they know what sort of bird it was - beyond a dead one?

On arrival, the pilot clearly reported that he had been goosed at FL360. Usual media hype thereafter.

Jerricho
7th Nov 2005, 10:20
Page 3 and not one joke about Dubya :E :E

757manipulator
7th Nov 2005, 13:28
Has all the hallmarks of it being one of those super-secret UAG's....(Unmaned Aerial Geese)...a product of americas military industrial complex, designed to penetrate defended airspace (but not aircraft windscreens)

This being most certainly the case, we wont know anytime soon if its true...two simple words gentlemen....PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY

:}

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 13:41
Ethiopian Airlines 727 hit a vulture at altitude. The bird smashed though the radome into the cockpit and almost severed the co-pilots leg.

Canada geese, vultures, pelicans have all been observed at extreme altitudes in the upper twenties low thirties often. Wondered at their lung capacity and ability to fly at these altitudes myself.

Farmer 1
7th Nov 2005, 15:45
A few questions being asked about how they manage to breathe up there. I was hoping someone would come up with the explanation, but decided to do a bit of research myself:


The bird that flies highest most regularly is the bar-headed goose Anser indicus, which travels directly over the Himalayas en route between its nesting grounds in Tibet and winter quarters in India. They are sometimes seen flying well above the peak of Mt. Everest at 29,035 ft. Birds have some natural advantages for getting oxygen at high altitudes, in particular an arrangement of air sacs that allows them to circulate inhaled air twice through the lungs with each breath--much more efficient than the in-and-out system used by mammals. Bar-headed geese have special adaptations that make them even better at high-flying than other birds. They have a special type of hemoglobin that absorbs oxygen very quickly at high altitudes, and their capillaries penetrate especially deep within their muscles to transfer oxygen to the muscle fibers.


Clever little blighters, aren't they?

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 17:41
Certainly makes human aviators look a bit underdeveloped. Lucky we got large brains Pratt & Whitney and a few other ancilliary devices to assist us.:ok:

The Invisible Cat
7th Nov 2005, 19:42
Glider pilots (http://records.fai.org/gliding/history.asp?id1=DO&id2=1&id3=98) don't need no shtinkin' P&W donks

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 19:46
Agreed, a Blannik would do just nicely.

The Invisible Cat
7th Nov 2005, 20:06
one thunk 'tis spelled Blaník

Lon More
7th Nov 2005, 20:18
Ethiopian Airlines 727 hit a vulture at altitude. The bird smashed though the radome into the cockpit and almost severed the co-pilots leg

I hate to think what meals were served that day

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 20:32
In First Class; Wot and a spicy meat sauce, to drink, Tej.
Wot is a grey foam rubber looking kind of 'bread' the meat sauce is like a bolognaise and very tasty. Tej is a honey type of mead, really great and very potent. Vulture never made it that far back.

smith
8th Nov 2005, 11:07
wdh

The web site did open for me!! I remember the Pan-am goose strike in the newspaper many years ago, the picture showed a large dent in the nose cone. This thread reminded me of it and I typed in Pan Am Bird Strike in google and this was the web-site that came up.

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 11:20
I stand corrected Glass Pussy, I have very little doubt that my spelling of the meal and drink served in First Class is wrong as well, since I was three bottle down I paid no attention to the spelling, nor was I on that particular flight. Pendantacism catching, darn it.:p

visibility3miles
14th Nov 2005, 03:14
Cannonical bird story:

http://www.snopes.com/science/cannon.htm

Farmer 1
14th Nov 2005, 16:22
I’ve always had a fascination for the natural world, and in particular, evolution. While I would never disagree with or say a word against Darwin, I’ve long felt that in some cases natural selection is not so random, or so slow as is the accepted norm. Natural disasters on a global scale are not all that rare in the history of the Earth, and in order to survive them, animals and plants must have had to adapt very quickly indeed. Changes over a period of thousands of years, even maybe tens of years, would simply not have been quick enough, I am convinced.

Anyway, that’s my four pennorth on the subject.

So, how did these geese manage to make the necessary changes? Did the Himalayas grow up between their long-established winter / summer living areas, while they carried on doing what they'd always done? If so, then they are an extremely ancient breed – those mountains don’t exactly gallop along, after all. Or maybe one of them was out on a recce one day, got a bit blown off course, and found an excellent place for winter fodder. When he reported back, the local commander realised what an opportunity this was to the whole wing. A few modifications would be necessary first, of course.

I imagine the scenario was something like this:

With sincere apologies to Jimmy Perry and David Croft.

The scene: Captain Mainwaring of the Walmington-on-Lucknow gaggle of the Home Guard is briefing his geese on an impending operation.


Capt Mainwaring: “Pay attention, geese. I want you to study this map carefully. We are – Here, and in order to get to our winter rations, we need to get – Here. Unfortunately, as you can see, there are these mountains in the way – the Himalayas.”

Fraser: “And whit’s wrrang wi’ goin’ rroond the side, might ah ask?” [Sorry, the only accent I can do is Yorkshire.]

Mainwaring: “I’ll tell you whit’s wrra- er, what’s wrong, Fraser – it’s a jolly long way round, and we are already running desperately short of rations.”

Godfrey: “I say, I’d really rather not have to go too far round, you see –”

Mainwaring: “Yes, all right, Godfrey, you’ll just have to do the best you can. So, geese, it seems we have no alternative but to go over the top.”

Fraser: “Overr the top, mon? Which warr d’ye think werr in?”

Mainwaring: “I’m referring to the mountains, Fraser! We’ll have to fly over them.”

Sgt Wilson: “I say, Sir, do you think that’s wise?”

Mainwaring: “We have no choice, Sergeant. Wise or not, we have to go over the top.”

Pike: “I don’t think my Mum would like me flying over the mountains, Mr Mainwaring. She doesn’t even like me climbing trees.”

Mainwaring: “What your Mu- er, mother wants, Pike, is neither here nor there. We have a job to do, and it is up to us to do it. (Aside – Stupid boy!) Now, geese, I’ve done a little research into the Himalayas, and it may surprise you to know that they rise to a height of almost 30,000 feet.” (Gasps of amazement from the gaggle.)

Jones: “30,000 feet! Don’t panic! Don’t panic! Don’t panic!”

Fraser: “We’rr doomed, ah tell yerr, we’rr arrll doomed.”

Mainwaring: “Please be quiet! And so, geese, we need to do some tough training to get you all into shape, and in addition we need to make some modifications to our bodies, and the way in which they act, especially as regards the shortage of oxygen at such an altitude.”

Walker: “I can lay my hands on a couple of dozen oxygen masks, Sir. Cheap – ten bob each.”

Mainwaring: “No, Walker, they would be too heavy for us to carry at that altitude – how much did you say?”

Walker: “All right, Captain Mainwaring, to you, eight shillin’ each, and I’m cutting my own throat.”

Mainwaring: “No, totally impractical. No, geese, here are the things we must do: first of all, we must make some kind of arrangement of sacs within our bodies that allows them to circulate inhaled air twice through the lungs with each breath. I think you’ll agree, that will give us twice the energy we have now, and set us off in the right direction to accomplish our task.”

Corporal Jones: “Permission to speak, Sir.”

Mainwaring: “Yes, what is it, Corporal?”

Jones: “I should like to volunteer to be the first goose to make some kind of arrangement of sacs within our bodies that allows them to circulate inhaled air twice through the lungs with each breath, Sir!”

Mainwaring: “Thank you, Corporal, but we’re all in this together, you know. And to continue, geese; in addition, we will need a special type of haemoglobin; one that will absorb oxygen very quickly at high altitudes; and our capillaries are going to have to penetrate especially deep within our muscles to transfer oxygen to the muscle fibres.”

Godfrey: “My sister, Dolly, could make us some packed lunches. I remember one time when we had to patrol around Lucknow, her packed lunches turned it into a jolly nice evening.”

Jones: “Yes, you’re right, Mr Godfrey, I remember, we were -”

Mainwaring: “Pay attention! I’ve drawn up a training schedule, and I’ve made a list of all the modifications that we need to make to ourselves. So, there’s no time to waste; take-off is scheduled for, er 06 and a – er, zero six past, er, half past six tomorrow.”

Wilson: “Zero six thirty, Sir.”

Mainwaring: “Yes, I know Wilson, thank you! Right, geese, at er -”

Wilson: “Zero six thirty.”



If you’ve never heard of Dad’s Army – no apologies.

G-CPTN
14th Nov 2005, 16:43
>http://www.snopes.com/science/cannon.htm

I suppose after reaching (and flying for some time) at 36000 feet any bird would surely be frozen solid? Especially a chicken!
:ok:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Nov 2005, 17:12
My highest bird strike was at 19,000 feet over Germany at night descending into Cologne. We were between 8/8ths layers above and below so whatever we hit (with a very large and loud bang) was not map reading or using a sun gun!

Which also raises the question - how did it get there, and (until its untimely demise) how was it planning to get down? Or can birds fly in IMC, and if so (lacking a gyro of any kind) how do they do it? Anyone hit one in cloud?

SSD

G-CPTN
14th Nov 2005, 17:17
>how was it planning to get down? Or can birds fly in IMC, and if so (lacking a giro of any kind) how do they do it?

Well you certainly upset it's gyro!

Darth Nigel
14th Nov 2005, 17:24
Yeah, birds can fly in clouds....

They fly quite slowly, and are nimble little tweeters so can usually descend into terrain somewhat fearlessly. Of course, this assumes yer actual terrain is stationary relative to the ground, and not thundering along at Mach 0.71.

G-CPTN
14th Nov 2005, 17:33
Have you noticed that at dusk the birds still flying (locally) fly closer to the ground? I'm talking about blackbirds and the like flitting to and fro just as it's getting completely dark. I suppose they're staying in 'contact' with the terrain. Migrating birds presumably do not fly VFR anyway, but use dead reckoning.

ExSimGuy
14th Nov 2005, 18:08
Farmer - Great adaptation, and true to the original (human variety) characters :ok:

henry crun
14th Nov 2005, 21:43
Of course birds can fly in IMC Shaggy Sheep Driver.

That is why the sensible early flyers always carried a bird with them when they ventured into the sky.
Chickens are hopeless flyers so the bird of choice was always a duck.

If our brave pilot was unlucky or stupid enough to go into a cloud he just threw the duck out and followed it down.

Jerricho
14th Nov 2005, 21:53
I believe the same thing can be done with a Kiwi :E

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Nov 2005, 22:09
I believe the same thing can be done with a Kiwi

.....Or a boat anchor. Certainly get you down quickly. ;)


SSD

seacue
14th Nov 2005, 22:23
Small birds like hummingbirds migrate nonstop across the Gulf of Mexico - surely well over a 24-hour sector.

"Among the many species that migrate, there are a few whose feats are, in a word, astonishing. When blackpoll warblers leave New England for South America in the fall, they begin a nonstop flight that takes a minimum of 72 hours and covers 2,000 miles. The tiny ruby-throated hummingbird uses less than one gram of fat from its four-ounce body to complete a 500-mile flight across the Gulf of Mexico. That's energy efficiency!"

answer=42
14th Nov 2005, 23:15
dash it, cq, you've done it! you've found the solution to Global Warming!!

All we have to do to save the planet is to replace our RollsRoyce /GE/P&W aeroengines with gigantic sacks of hummingbirds.

It's so crazy it might just work.

ExSimGuy
15th Nov 2005, 03:41
replace our RollsRoyce /GE/P&W aeroengines with gigantic sacks of hummingbirds

Small technical detail here . . . Humming birds have wings, so you wouldn't need to have the wings on the aircraft. But engines are hung off the wings, so nowhere to hang the humming birds?

I suppose we could go back to the good old system where the engines are hung in pairs on the outside of the rear fuselage? Could even go bigger than the 380 and make a 5-holer by adding another sack of humming birds on the bottom of the vert stab

This would be quite safe as, without wings, you'd have no "wing shadow" and no risk of starving the power units of air during stall approach - BRILLIANT :E

African Tech Rep
15th Nov 2005, 07:38
Of course if you do that the CAA will classify the birds as flight crew and limit their hours or make them LLP’s 20,000 cycles and scrap them.
First way and we’ll have the problem of how many gold bars their entitled to – second way and we’ll have a “Save the Hummingbird Society” problem.
;)

Farmer 1
15th Nov 2005, 08:54
Small birds like hummingbirds migrate nonstop across the Gulf of Mexico - surely well over a 24-hour sector. 24 hours? Luxury!

The humble swift gets ready for its first flight - no instruction from Mum and Dad, by the way. No maps, just a quick "Straight on at Gibraltar," type of briefing, and that's his lot.

Anyway, off he takes, and lands two or three YEARS later. I wonder how he enters that in his logbook.

RJM
15th Nov 2005, 11:01
I've just done somesearching around re bird migration. It's incredibly interesting, as some posters here undoubtedly know.

Not only do migratory birds have amazingly well adapted physiology for the task, but they also have navigation systems and are superbly efficient aerodynamically.

An endurance bird like the swift has a high aspect ratio, lightly loaded wing, just like a U2, and even the detail design of their feathers and cardio-vascular system takes every opportunity to save weight etc. (That's not to suggest it's intelligent design of course :rolleyes: )

Amazing. Try http://courses.washington.edu/vertebra/451/notes/bird_flight.htm

Paterbrat
15th Nov 2005, 11:24
The longest migration being undertaken is Pole to Pole and is I think by the Arctic tern, since this is nearly 22,000 miles there and back it could be said to knock the humming bird's flight rather for a six. It can however feed along the way, while the humming bird has to guage it's fuel reserves rather closely being akind of high octane flyer burning off energy rather swiftly.

They are rather special aviators birds, closest I have ever come is freefall and that sadly is very limited in glide ratio :uhoh: Max track only got one so far in a simple jumpsuit, start adding webbing and or fibreglass wings and pods I suppose got one across the Channel but none of it gets close to our feathered mates does it, Dodo and one or two others excepted.
penguins under water are spectacular flyers in the somewhat thicker medium.

Farmer 1
15th Nov 2005, 14:58
While striving not to be pedantic on this fascinating thread, I'm pretty sure Seacue is out a mite in his estimate of the weight of a hummingbird. I would guess four ounces would cover a dozen or so of the blighters - the bigger ones, that is. If I am wrong, please correct me.

If you ever pick up your average common or garden type of flying bird, you will be surprised - nay, amazed - at how little it weighs. They have hollow bones, and save weight in many other ways, by not having any teeth, for instance. (Dedicated aviators, or what?)

I believe the lightest bird in the world is the male bee hummingbird, just before it takes a sip of nectar - that sip makes an appreciable difference. The birds weigh in at two a penny - and I'm not talking old money.

stuckbee
15th Nov 2005, 18:00
Some can...

http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/stories?14511

Have a good laugh!

FLCH
15th Nov 2005, 18:58
I thought Goose died in TopGun ??

Paterbrat
15th Nov 2005, 19:08
Run down by a cat... a Tomcat driven by :cool:

seacue
15th Nov 2005, 20:51
Farmer 1

Look very carefully and you'll see the second paragraph in my message is enclosed in quotes. I stole it.

Four ounces sounded like a lot to me as well, but I was lazy and didn't look further. And mixing grams and ounces in the same statement was a bit off as well.

Sorry to mislead you all.

seacue