Ozjet is an airline! [Archive]

waav8r

6th Nov 2005, 06:54

By Scott Rochfort
November 5, 2005

The fourth domestic carrier, OzJet, might gain regulatory approval to launch services within days, after conducting its much-awaited "proving" flight with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority on Friday.

Under the eye of CASA inspectors, OzJet conducted a return flight between Melbourne and Sydney to prove it is capable of safely carrying passengers - and responding to inflight emergencies - between the cities.

CASA said it would be able to assess the results of the flight only on Monday. But if all goes well the airline, backed by ex-Formula One Minardi team owner Paul Stoddart, could have its Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) within a week. From then on, it would be able to start selling tickets and give a starting date for its eight return daily services between Sydney and Melbourne.

"It [the proving flight] could all be OK but we don't want to answer until Monday," CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said. He said the results of the proving flight could range from OzJet getting the green light to fly to the airline being forced to start its AOC application all over again. Qantas's low-cost carrier Jetstar, for one, failed its first proving flight when it introduced the first A320 to its fleet.

After repeatedly talking up its plans to get an AOC and begin services as an all-business airline, in June, then October, then November, OzJet was uncharacteristically quiet on Friday.

OzJet spokesman Geoff Harris said: "We weren't going to make any noise about what is happening today because we don't think it's the sort of thing that we think we ought to be talking about."

He declined to give any date for when OzJet planned to sell tickets. But even with the airline on the verge of getting its AOC, there are still sceptics who doubt OzJet's ability to take on the might of Qantas and Virgin Blue. This is despite speculation Mr Stoddart will funnel some of the proceeds from the recent sale of his F1 Minardi team into the airline.

CommSec analyst Matt Crowe said: "One of the things that business customers value the most is the frequency of flights, and Qantas have a real advantage in that market. It's going to be very hard for OzJet to match that frequency, even if the inflight service is as good and their prices are competitive."

OzJet will have to contend with Virgin Blue's increasing attempts to poach business passengers from Qantas. It also could face much higher operating costs than its competitors, given its 737-200 fleet is more than 30 years old.

Enema Bandit's Dad

6th Nov 2005, 07:18

Legal_Counsel, where ever you are, it's getting closer!

amos2

6th Nov 2005, 08:16

Oz Jet spokesman Geof Harris? From Adelaide?

Please,somebody,tell me It's not true!

planemad2

6th Nov 2005, 09:23

According to their web site, they are now taking applications for Captains. ;)

Calligula

6th Nov 2005, 12:40

Hey Amos, why dont you offer to undercut all the guys that have already accepted jobs with Ozjet - you might be able to get back in the saddle and impress us all with your expertise ?

nomorecatering

6th Nov 2005, 18:47

Well a big Bravo and a Hearty Ha Ha to the guys n gals at Ozjet. Makes the market more interesting and hopefully will give some more people a shot at the pointy end of of jet.

Hopfully a good number of business punters will go for the cheese n bikkies think with leather seats.

Sunfish

6th Nov 2005, 19:46

Now wait for the dirty tricks to start.

Clogged phone lines.

Denial of Service attacks on their website.

Ground handling "problems", including difficulties with fuel, parking, catering, spare parts, baggage and maintenance.

QF suddenly dropping the price of its business class seats through "special offers"

An orchestrated series of public complaints about noise.

An orchestrated series of media attacks courtesy of QF and Channel Nine on "safety of old jets", "Aircraft Noise" etc. etc. Unfavourable "reviews" by less than disinterested passengers and also difficulties in placing advertising anywhere.

Good luck OzJet. Kick em right where it hurts!

Howard Hughes

6th Nov 2005, 20:18

Enema Bandit's Dad

6th Nov 2005, 20:25

Sunny, are you going to give them a go?

elektra

6th Nov 2005, 21:01

HH

Fair, robust, even bitter competition is one thing. Dirty tricks from a war chest built up over 50 years of priviledged monoploly profits....that's another thing. In Europe, Branson and Laker showed in landmark legal battles, that the big incumbent carriers are capable of completely unacceptable and illegal dirty tricks.

Though at least anecdotal evidence exists of such dirty tricks campaigns here in the past, our anti-trust, pro-comptetition laws have yet to be seen to support new entrants. Hopefully this supposedly 'pro-competition" government will do something WHEN (not if) the dirty tricks start.

Good luck OZJET.

Sunfish

6th Nov 2005, 22:12

Don't expect the Government to lift a finger. The Nine network and the Packer Press would dump on them if they did.

What you will reead in the press is a delightful article about QF dropping its business class fares in a sudden spurt of generousity to the poor bloody consumer.

This will be somewhat surprising since I was led to believe that QF was breaking even or less on domestic economy and Business class was the icing on the cake.

Furthermore, way back when Compass 1 was starting, I asked the ACCC how long it would take to investigate the issue of predatory pricing if an accusation was made.....I was told a minimum of 6 months.

Considering the huge cashflows necessary to run any airline that is unacceptable.

BAE146

6th Nov 2005, 22:19

Qantas will hit OzJet with everything available in it's arsenal to put them out of business, don't worry about that.

In Europe, Branson and Laker showed in landmark legal battles, that the big incumbent carriers are capable of completely unacceptable and illegal dirty tricks.

True and they were successful because they gathered evidence that stood up in court. Cost BA a bit of money in the end.
OzJet will have to do the same. We've already seen how dirty Dixon plays with his own team members (staff) so can't imagine what he'll try with an adversary.

There's going of be plenty of heat in the kitchen if OzJet get up and running but it won't be one sided like the Compass vs AN/TN stoush of the early '90s ! :ok:

F111

6th Nov 2005, 22:33

Well done to Gordon and his team. Look forward to seeing the 732 in Brisbane in the new year:ok:

Choice bro

6th Nov 2005, 23:47

Schotty, We done mate...........................JC

gaunty

7th Nov 2005, 01:20

and hopefully will give some more people a shot at the pointy end of of jet.
nomorecatering no disrespect intended and i'm all for people following their dream, but there is this distressingly familiar theme that runs through Oz aviation and forever damns it.

It is that aviation businesses are promoted and started for the sole pupose of employing pilots and engineers, usually by those unemployed as such or to use fuel, a rapidly dimininshing resource and maintenance, there are warehouse full of obsolete parts as a substitute for real capital.:{

It seems that Governments, airlines and manufacturers have been going down the wrong path all these billions of dollars and years later. Car manufacturers have even been able to get to the California "zero emmission" standards and fuel consumptions half that previously, at a cost of several gazillion, billion, million dollars.

Anyway I'll be gone for a bit while I round up some DC-8-73s for an assault on the Kangaroo Route. I reckon with a 100 pullman berths I rescued from some old 1920s trains, disco and hot tub, we could make a motza.

Heck I could even get amos2 as Chief Pilot.:}

Sunfish
Now wait for the dirty tricks to start. what? do you mean VB and QF kicking into gear to meet the new competition?

BA deserved everything they got and more AND funded their new competitor to a level that may not have occured "naturally' for some time if ever. Poetic justice on a grand scale.:E

That was the this is now.

So, any moves by the incumbents to protect their market will be "dirty tricks" then? :rolleyes:

I seem to recall the same treatment towards VB, now they are allies against the new "enemy".

Sun Tzu would be savouring the exquisite deliciousness of it .

I've been wrong before but IMHO this will be a brutally short war.

They only have to turn the basic premise of the business plan against them by claiming the environmental high ground to put the guilts on the user. Sun Tzu!

Make no mistake whatever most people might think about the apathetic Aussie he does, or at least his adult children do take the environment seriously.

Which brings me to the real question all "old clunker" arguments aside.

How have the Government and regulators acquitted the "environmental impact" issue required by law in this regard.

Swanrider

7th Nov 2005, 01:30

You're right Keg: another QF LCC crewed only by pilots who are prepared to undercut the J* pay and conditions ... those Impulse guys did F/A duties while waiting for their call up (after not getting into EEA) didn't they?... perfect!

Good luck to Ozjet!

:ok:

Sunfish

7th Nov 2005, 03:44

Gaunty, there is a law in this country about "predatory pricing" - being one of the tactics firms with market power are not allowed to use.

Simply put, the law states that if you have substantial market power, you are not allowed to sell goods and services at less than the cost of their production as a tactic to undercut a competitor's prices.

If Qantas does decide to "match" Ozjet, I think a few injunctions might start flying about rather quickly.

I suspect that the reason he is using an old aircraft is to make it as bleedin' obvious as possible to the ACCC that the only way Qantas could be matching his prices is by predatory pricing.

Uncle Festa

7th Nov 2005, 04:20

Sunsfish, determining the "cost" of providing a service for a given route is, at best, problematic given the mix of fixed/variable and direct/indirect costs incurred in operating an airline.

If an airline can demonstrate that its revenue from a given route is exceeding that route's variable costs (in other words, the route is making a contribution towards the airline's fixed costs), I suspect that the ACCC will have some difficulty in arguing the existence of predatory pricing.

elektra

7th Nov 2005, 05:09

Maybe the ACCC doesn't have to work it out all by themselves. Fortunately, US anti-trust law is full of case studies relating to abuses of market power and entrenched position. Have a Google look at the Reno Air vs. Northwest case where in 1993 Northwest decided to re-enter the Minneapolis-Reno market after abandoning it years before. magically at the same time new competitor Reno Air opened up the route.

Airlines who have ignored or gouged a particular route or market segment for years then only "discover" it when a new competitor comes in....thieves and rogues whose only purpose is to deny consumers their choice.
ONE DAY...new competitors in Australia will have some US style protection.

Our American brothers don't do so many things well...but building Boeings and managing anti-trust are a couple of the things they do really wonderfully.

gaunty

7th Nov 2005, 06:18

Sunny

Where did I say anything about predatory pricing??

It's much simpler than that.

As JetA_OK say's he don't have any new ones and the main motivation is that his oldies are no longer acceptable in Europe and will be mandated so before very long at all, so why not send em to a third world country for a bit.

The Oz "give the battler a break routine" is super cynical BS.

I would be prepared to listen to his story were he prepared to stop treating us like a third world peanut republic.

It wont be hard for QF/VB to kill that without moving their prices one little bit.

OZBUSDRIVER

7th Nov 2005, 06:47

200s are "old world" for sure. However, a punter isn't going to know unless someone tells them:E Business class is a funny animal. From what I can make of it 5% of the load returns about 25% of the revenue. Extrapolating this, Does that mean Oz only has to run 20% or better to show a good profit?

Methinks OzJet will be hunting for the people who actually pay for their own seats. It will be a cruel hoax on the business community if the Rat suddenly finds excess capacity.

PPRuNe Towers

7th Nov 2005, 08:40

Genuine question - how long is it since anyone conducted regular ops in OZ in jets of this vintage?

I cut my teeth on them but now euro pilots cringe, shrink a foot or two and try to become invisible when one of the very few remaining 732's or 1-11's gets airborne here.

We all used to make that noise but once it has gone from peoples' lives for a few years they won't put up with it again.

The environmental impact issues are significant.

Regards
rob

Mr.Buzzy

7th Nov 2005, 08:56

Who cares about fleet age, types, fuel burns blah blah blah.
With Dicko flogging up and down the J curve all day, every day at times that suit every "important" business meeting; at prices that can be propped by the other 200 punters aft of the snob divider: Does anyone really think it has a chance?

Sadly loads for the first couple of weeks will comprise the fatties that have a QF grudge and can't fit in a VB seat.
"Enthusiast" types will have a crack to get a free sticker to put on the fridge next to the Compass stickers.
The remainder will be journos, freebies, F1 fans and retirees that have just "experienced" The Ghan and now looking for a new adventure to boast about at bingo.

I also wish those at the coalface the best of luck.

I just wish more would wake up and see this as a tax/legal dodge for our rogue ozmate.

bbbbbbbbzbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Torres

7th Nov 2005, 08:59

Yes Rob. It's going to be an interesting concept! Our average airline fleet will slip from being one of the youngest in the world to something approaching the age of our GA fleet. And if "tech delays" with old equipment upset his premium business class passengers - the most discerning of the lot - he may not hold their support.

He won't be short of drivers. If they are not here now they will flock home.

I wish the guy luck - I have a feeling he's going to need it!!! And with the current level of capital city/trunk route service frequency in a country with a population of only 20 million - not quite three times the population of London but only marginally more than the population of NYC - he going to have to fight hard to carve himself an equitable and viable share....... And Ozjet want to fight it out initially on a city pair with a combined population of 7.3 million.

CASA have not yet announced whether Ozjet has been awarded a HCAOC.

:ugh:

amos2

7th Nov 2005, 10:19

Err!...this Chief Pilots job you're offering me Gaunty...would this be an award postion or on one of Honest Johns new AWAs? :p

gaunty

7th Nov 2005, 14:08

amos2 eerm I was thinking of something along the line of "profit share". :E

I take the profit, you share what's left over in the galley with the crew.:p that's what Little Johnny has in mind I think.:ok:

Of course just the sheer fun of it is usually sufficient reward for most Oz pilots.:{ and we can work out way up from there.:sad:

Rob back in the seventies, I think it was.

I dont think their competitors will have to do much in the way of pointing out the environmental isues, the aircraft will do it for them.

As you say We all used to make that noise but once it has gone from peoples' lives for a few years they will more than notice its return.

I live about 10 miles from Perth Airport and the departure North from 21 takes em around to the south of my house .

In days of yore on a still night or in the morning with an easterly you could hear the "oldies" landing and taking off (including the compressor stalls in the strong easterlys) and you would wait for them to come crackling overhead and get the TV picture jittering away. The Speys were the worst for noise.

Nowadays with the modern kit you can't, at least not easily and in any event the superior performance has em overhead and going through FL150 plus quiet as a mouse.

Most now are so quiet you don't even know they are there.

Occasionally we'd get the odd US military B707, RAF VC10 and the like then they stood out like the proverbials.

And if my memory serves me right they wont be hard to find out the window, you do what you do with the PC3 Orion and C130 look for the grey smoke trails and follow them to the aircraft.

Ah well back to the future.:sad:

OZBUSDRIVER

Does that mean Oz only has to run 20% or better to show a good profit? no, just maybe if he wasn't booting it out the back in truckloads as smoke, revenue is not profit.
And the manufacturers haven't been searching for fuel economy just for resource and environmental reasons, it is a huge percentage of the total cost.
And we have not yet begun to pay anywhere near the real price of fuel.

Escape_Slide

7th Nov 2005, 15:46

I am sure Geoff Dixon will have already thought about Ozjet being a trojan horse and have planned for such a move.

The trojan horse concept is not new in aviation. It is a strategy that diverts the attention of competitors from immediately deploying counter measures. So far this seems to have worked for Ozjet by changing the product from economy to business class, changing base and so on resulting in quite a bit of confusion. The chaotic approach of Ozjet appears to be favouring its survival - at least at this stage.

However, I think the market will react to Ozjet and, because the market is not large in Australia by world standards, Ozjet will be forced to change and, that decision, which needs to be made soon, is crucial for its survival.

Having attended an interview with them, they are very professional in their approach but I declined their offer of employment because it appeared to me they don't have plans beyond the next 6 months and for me that is too much of a risk to take. It just reminded me so much of Compass 2.

But, they are at least trying.

:ok:

Sunfish

8th Nov 2005, 03:30

Last 737 200 would have been? I remember Boeing selling us a stack of them to replace the DC9's but I can't remember if they had JT8's or if the CFM56 hadn't already come in. That was about 1980.

Uncle Fester, I think you will find competition law treats marginal pricing (selling at a price that still provides a contribution to fixed costs) as predatory, but I'm not entirely sure.

ur2

8th Nov 2005, 05:05

Hope they get some punters.
Last figures I saw it was $650 return SYD- MEL, sure want to give good service.

BankAngle50

8th Nov 2005, 06:08

anybody taking bets? Less than a year i reakon:O

404 Titan

8th Nov 2005, 06:29

Sunfish

All 732 had JT8’s. As a kid I flew on them a few times to Cairns. As for the predatory pricing debate I think you will find that if QF matches the price of its competition instead of undercutting them then the ACCC wouldn’t see a problem with this. It’s when you deliberately undercut your competition or dump capacity on a sector that the ACCC will take them to task.

Zigzag

8th Nov 2005, 07:22

IIRC, Ansett had 737-200's up until '86/'87, when the -300's started to arrive.

Air New Zealand didn't dispose of their last one until '02 or something. One of them is still flying around with Airwork over there.

elektra

8th Nov 2005, 08:26

Let's get over the "old" stuff please. Its about as relevant as the offensive "4 engines 4 long haul" BS I see on some -600s around the place. There are aircraft as "old" as the 737-200s all over the developed world. Including the Chieftains that many young Prune cadets are earning their spurs on as we speak. Older a/c are noisy...thats all. Whats the average age of the 10 oldest QF 767s? The RAAFs F111s? The "remanufactured" Chinooks? The KC-135s that support the USAAF bombers and fighters that keep our underdefended part of the world safe? Let alone the B-52s!!!

Those that are drooling at the thought of the glorious demise of Ozjet should remember that there was a time when Hudson Fysh, Reg Ansett and Frank Ball etc all were "new boys". By the time TAA got going the Convair 240 had already made the DC-3 obsolete. They flew on for nearly 30 more years with TAA and many still fly. Antiques...or well maintained aircraft that did their job well? Or both.

Deregulation creates jobs. Three words...a world of truth. Get over the hatred and bias...newcomers change things and we're all better for it.

Aviation history has always been made by people willing to give it a go. I always liked David and Goliath in Sunday School....never quite saw a reason to change that view.

Safe flying

PPRuNe Towers

8th Nov 2005, 11:12

So you haven't listened to them taking off all day in recent years then elektra?

Forget economics and your pocket MBA stuff - when folks hear them launching they will be pilloried and shouted out of the skies. Populist press/TV will grab onto the coat tails. Target pax will fire up tall poppy syndrome.

This is really simple stuff - it's just that it appears to be 15 or more years since your folks have heard a civvy smoker for the 3rd time that day laying down its fabulous phonic footprint. Then we can look at your first paragraph again in its glory.

Regards
Rob

Buster Hyman

8th Nov 2005, 13:19

The sheer matter of age is perception really. It doesn't matter how many military types are quoted, would those crews pay to fly them if they weren't ordered? Would they pay for their families to fly in them?

The perception that OzJet need to overcome is the publics, not the industry types that know any well maintained contraption is as reliable as a new model.http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/fly.gif

elektra

8th Nov 2005, 13:23

Rob,

Thanks for that...but it is only partly true. The people whinging about the noise (did they ever hear a real turbojet 707 or DC 8 take off?) are not necessarily the ones with bucket and spade paying the lowest fare to get where they want to go. An "old" 737 may still be legal and if so, can still fly when needed. And those on board wil care less....others may gurgle their chardonay and frown....but big deal. I've been a Captain for 20 years but there are an awful lot of a/c in the US and Europe- and maybe even Australia-built (and still in service) before I got my four gold bars.

Safe flying

OVERCHINA

8th Nov 2005, 18:23

I was told that the hushkitted engines would not be allowed to fly in Aus by 2007. Is this true ?
Anyone ?

Shagtastic

8th Nov 2005, 19:56

The more opportunities downunder the better however could anyone fill me in on ozjets' type rating-recruitment policy?

Are they going to follow 'industry practice' to quote Eastern's/Sunstate famous insult and get pilots to fund the employee training bill or will they be bold enough to break from the industry wide cancer and provide ratings.. live in hope eh?

Shags

rescue 1

8th Nov 2005, 21:08

Shags, I hear that they have returned to the "old fashioned" bond!!

If so, this company should be applauded and encouraged, instead of being lambasted by nay-sayers on this forum.

MrWooby

8th Nov 2005, 21:24

Unfortunately old airplanes do cause problems. You can maintain an old aircraft as much as you like but there are still areas were age problems can be catastrophic. Think back to the roof peeling off the Aloha Airlines 737-200. What about the miles and miles of old brittle wiring that cannot be inspected, just waiting for a chance to short out and cause a fire. Having flown many an old aircraft, the older they get the more unreliable they get.
RIP Ozjet.

waav8r

8th Nov 2005, 23:21

Mr Wooby - with all respect - that's a load of bollocks! The cause of the ceiling rupturing open on Aloha Airlines was found and has issue has been resolved, evidenced by it never reoccuring on a 737 - the biggest airline fleet in the world!

With regard to electrical wiring - you probably have not been near an airliner when it is undergoing a D-check, have you?

And you are saying that B732 is unreliable?? I don't think so mate -they operate with a dispatch reliablilty better than 99% in Europe and most crew having operated the 200 and the 300-500 with tell you that the straight forward and uncomplicated engineering and systems on the 200 makes for an aircraft that is ready to go when you are!

Old airliners fall out of the sky not BECAUSE they are old, but because dodgy outfits in the third world lack proper regulatory oversight and can get away without maintaining them properly.

Stoddart is only the second owner of his 732's, the first owner being the Belgian national airline SABENA. After being purchased by Stoddart, they have been operated in the UK under under what is most probably the most stringent airworthiness requirements anywhere in the world, and they arrive in Australia with a fresh D-check. Simply put - they are absolutely immaculate inside and out. Do you really believe CASA would grant a CofA if there was any doubt regarding these aircrafts airworthiness?

Further - I do not believe that you will ever hear QANTAS officially using the "old airliner" rhetoric, as they themselves operate and have operated 747's for nearly twice the number of flight hours as OzJet's fleet average.

SMH this morining:

OzJet close to selling first tickets

By Scott Rochfort
November 9, 2005
AdvertisementAdvertisement

OzJet could start selling tickets as soon as Friday after Australia's fourth domestic airline cleared its final major obstacle in gaining an Air Operator's Certificate (AOC).

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority said OzJet's successful "proving flight" between Melbourne and Sydney last week meant the airline might gain permission to fly as early as Friday. After gaining its AOC, OzJet will be allowed to sell tickets.

"It all went well on Friday," said CASA spokesman Peter Gibson. "It's all hunky-dory, everything's fine," he said, noting that only several minor issues remained to be dealt with.

Mr Gibson conceded the timing of an announcement that OzJet had been awarded the certificate might now depend on the airline's publicity strategy.

"The other factor we need to consider is what OzJet may want to do," he said.

There are hints the announcement will be made late this week. OzJet declined to give any timing but conceded that it might have problems attracting publicity if it made an announcement at the weekend, given the world's biggest airliner - the A380 - is due to make its first visit to Australia on Sunday.

"That would be a pretty big thing to be running up against," said OzJet spokesman Geoff Harris.

In any event, it is expected the airline - which is already running five months behind from its initial timetable - will waste little time once it has its AOC.

OzJet had previously flagged it would give itself two to three weeks from when it started selling tickets to when it started its first flights between Sydney and Melbourne.

MrWooby

9th Nov 2005, 00:10

Waav8r,

"With regard to electrical wiring - you probably have not been near an airliner when it is undergoing a D-check, have you?".

Actually my friend, not only have I been near an aircraft undergoing a D-check, I have actually done them, being an ex E & I ame. Just as the reason for the Aloha airlines accident was found so will others be found. As aircraft age, problems develop, new areas of concern are found.

ys120fz

9th Nov 2005, 01:30

So now we have a pi$$ing contest between Mr Wooby and Waav8r.

Sounds like KaptinM versus the rest of the world......again.

elektra

9th Nov 2005, 01:38

Mr Wooby...the Aloha aircraft was a 737-100, much much older but more importantly the problem there was very very poor maintenance. Ditto the Alaska Airlines MD-80 stabilizer failure near LAX.

Poor maintenance would frighten me way more than an old airframe. Ansett's 767s weren't that old were they?

gaunty

9th Nov 2005, 02:31

google "aircraft noise"

The world is interested in noise, here's but one of thousands of studies. (http://www.techtransfer.berkeley.edu/aviation05downloads/Barrett101.pdf)

And this little bewdy (http://www.techtransfer.berkeley.edu/aviation05downloads/Kirk.pdf) and so on.

It's from the US so it must be true/good for us/work here.:}

Bentleigh

9th Nov 2005, 03:30

Girls calm down!!

Am I right in thinking that the B737-200's which are being put onto the Oz register cannot fly within Europe at night because they are too noisy?

Are they being "dumped" in Australia because our noise restrictions are not as severe?

waav8r

9th Nov 2005, 03:50

Hi Bentleigh,

The 737-229's in question can operate in European airspace until 2012 at this stage.
They are actually not THAT noisy, it just depends on what you compare it with.

We could of course follow the tree-huggers back into the caves we once emerged from, and sit there quietly until NASA has produced the aircraft depicted in Gaunty's brochure. Cheers.;)

Bentleigh

9th Nov 2005, 03:57

Waav8r

Not, lets not follow the tree huggers, I just thought that the B737-229's were banned from night flights within Europe due to noise.

VH-OZQ is still an aircraft manufactured in 1974, and according to the UK CAA's website, had flown over 61000 hours by the end of last year!!

I assume that these aircraft are Chapter 3 compliant?

Either way, these -200's are old, and bloody noisy if you compare them with later versions of the B737.

Business travellers demand punctuality and serviceability. Surely this will be harder to provide with a 31 year old airframe, when the competition are using newer aircraft.

gaunty

9th Nov 2005, 06:28

Can anyone explain why, when I point out some significant environmental trade offs in the pursuit of low prices and doubts about the basic premise of the business plan use of what are "superannuated aircraft" by any measure, I and others are automatically pilloried as anti-competition and anti-job creation.

Far from it.
elektra says;
Deregulation creates jobs. Three words...a world of truth. Get over the hatred and bias...newcomers change things and we're all better for it. :rolleyes: so lets start the same race to the bottom in the airline industry that cruelled the GA industry. More jobs in the short term less in the future and while we are at it, we can tell the airframe and engine manufacturers to quit this all this expensive modernisation and fartarsing around, sack the hundreds of thousands of aerospace workers so we can employ a dozen or so extra pilots, go back to the desert and refurbish the thousands of airframes we once thought had passed their use by date and lets get on with it shall we.:rolleyes: I always did have a bit of a hankering for the CV990.:rolleyes:

Sunfish

9th Nov 2005, 06:54

Gaunty, the capital cost of the aircraft is a factor in the total cost per hour. If the reduced (or zero) capital cost offsets the fuel and operational cost penalties then you can have a go.

I don't think the Comvairs are coming out or retirement just yet, unless the price of Jet A1 drops to 10 cents a litre. :ok:

Zigzag

9th Nov 2005, 08:54

gaunty wrote: google "aircraft noise"

The world is interested in noise, here's but one of thousands of studies.

And this little bewdy and so on.

It's from the US so it must be true/good for us/work here.

If you're so fair dinkum about this, then why aren't you holding banners at Sydney Airport protesting against:

The AAE/NJS 727's ?
The DHL 727 ?
The Airwork 737 ?
Any KC-135 etc, that may visit?
Even JT's 707?

Why is this SUDDENLY relevant now???

Just wondering :suspect:

3 Holer

9th Nov 2005, 09:05

Can't protest against 727's.

They are "Whispering T Jets" !

gaunty

9th Nov 2005, 09:07

Sunny mate, tell me something I don't know. :rolleyes:

I'm trying to lift the debate beyond the here's a few jobs for the boys.

Yes but at what cost?

My point is, that this form of business case is in itself predatory in exactly the same way the GA operators have worked themselves out of business, as well in this case an irresponsible use of non renewable resources and an unnecessary impost on the environment.

Try and put the old 70's diesel buses back on the road and see how far you get.

No wonder we didn't sign up to Kyoto we would have to trade a heap of credits won by efficient users to offset the extra carbon load.

Which is exactly what it going to happen before too long. An operator using high emission products is going to have to pay an additional carbon tax. That'll take the fun out of it.:oh:

The CV990 BTW was still in commercial ?? service until the mid eighties.:ooh: It was very quick but not realy competitive in airline service.

ZigZag quite so and it is not suddenly relevant it remains so. You know very well the circumstances and history of those types and they, JT and the military are hardly running hourly schedules between city hubs.

Barbossa

9th Nov 2005, 09:47

In response to zigzags post; because none of them are operating high capacity RPT operations.

Fact - the AAE (NJS) 727's are responsible for 90% of the noise complaints at MEL and BNE. They would have been phased out by now but for the lack of an immediate alternative.

Just as with the OZJet 737-200's they are chapter 3 compliant by aggragate only - that is, across the 3 phases of measurement they comply, but fail individually. Chapter 3 compliance in Australia is at each point; these current aircraft operate, and OZJet will be allowed to operate, because the legislation to boot them all out was delayed following Ansett's collapse and the industry upheaval following 9/11. All these current dinosaurs will be required to leave the country once Chapter 4 is adopted.

And Bentleigh is right - these 737's have been banned from nightflights in Europe - hence their introduction down here.

They may have an AOC, but they aren't an airline. You who have worked hard for your qualifications, and who suffer so unmercifully in this harsh competitive environment must understand that this is going to further destabilise the local aviation market and put more pressure on your salaries and standards of employment. And all for what? So this Stoddart (who already has a poor reputation in Europe) can take advantage of a cheap and cheerful opportunity that we all know in our heart of hearts is not sustainable on the Australian domestic trunk routes. It will hurt QF, it will hurt VB, and eventually it will destroy the aspirations of its own employees as it implodes because the model is basically bankrupt. Remember (and you engineers should know) old jets can be made safe, but only heaps and heaps of money and time can make them reliable. Any claims Stoddart makes about being low-cost because he is not paying aircraft rentals is absolutely drowned out in the exponential costs he will have to contribute to maintain reliability. And if there is one thing that he is known for in Europe it is that he does the bear minimum of maintenance requirements. You can get away with it as a charter airline - you cant get away with it on the 3rd busiest domestic air route in the world!

Saying OZJet is an airline is like saying Mindardi is a Formula 1 team!

waav8r

9th Nov 2005, 09:54

Gaunty - I'm somewhat puzzled as to why yourself joining the greenies in a crusade against aviation is "lifting the debate beyond the here's a few jobs for the boys". First of all - do you seriously believe that OzJet is started in order to provide "jobs for the boys"??

Secondly if this is an "irresponsible use of non-renewable resources" - where exactly do you draw the line between what constitutes responisible vs. irresponsible use of our natural wealth. You seem to share the "cock-suredness" approach of Greenpeace and others that YOUR definition is the one and only quantification of where to draw the line. (think burning massive amounts of petrol in your rubber dingie while protesting in an attempt to prevent resupplies to an oil exploration platform). You alluded in an earlier post that it was morally wrong to fly an aircraft the size of a 737 with only 60 people in it, but somehow fail to realise that the logical progression of your moral definition, is that it is indeed "immoral" to have a business class (with ample legroom) at all! Indeed - following on, it is positively wrong to even contemplate taking off with an empty seat in an all-economy lay-out, so lets just keep 'er at the gate until every last cattle-class seat is filled - bugger them if they're in a hurry, they should have driven their ox-cart along the Hume highway between SYD and MLB anyways. Oh, and once the A380 is operational with capacity for 880 economy seat passengers, it would be "immoral" to fly anything else wouldn't it, as any other aircraft than this is less efficient with fuel burned per seat/kilometre??

I suppose it may not surprise you by now that I happen to believe that NOT signing the Kyoto agreement is of the few "gutsy" decisions our esteemed government has made in recent years.
With respect and regards:ok:

puff

9th Nov 2005, 09:54

Not that it effects the arguement elektra but the Aloha 737 wasn't a 100, it was indeed a 737-297 N73711. It and 2 others were the fleet leaders for cycles in the world. The accident aircraft was the 2nd highest cycled in the world.

After the accident the other 2 were found to have the same problems and both of them were soon scrapped as well. They all had somewhere around 40,000 hours but about 90,000 cycles. I believe N73711 was 19 years old when the accident occured

waav8r

9th Nov 2005, 10:33

NOTE TO SELF

Don't be quite so quick to turn on "rant-mode" in the future.:O

OVERCHINA

9th Nov 2005, 19:20

Barb with all due respect "SO WHAT".
To take you up on some of your points:-

Noise is relative .Cities are noisy .You dont like noise you dont live in the city.The world will not stop rotating because of a couple of 737s flogging about. Chainsaws /mowers/ hot cars boats and motorbikes are all accepted but a 737 flying overhead for 30 seconds God forbid.
A dog barking next door in the middle of the night is noisy.

What do we all know in our heart of hearts ? Tell us because Business model airlines are doing really well . This should be no different.Because he is running over the 3rd(your quote) busiest route in the world he should have reasonable traffic .

This will hurt Qantas and Virgin . Oh in that case Stoddard better not open an airline.... because it might hurt the big two. AND your point about Stoddart being of poor reputation ? Do you see GEOFF and RICHARD as nice guys.................... please.

This Airline has only done one thing differently to catch my attention.They have broken the chain of pilots paying for jobs. A lot of very fine pilots simply through cost of living cannot afford $35,000 to buy the qualifications.

For that I stand ,clap and say "well done and good luck OZJET ."

Tickle Me Pink

9th Nov 2005, 22:45

So then.
does anyone know what the going rate is to be for a Captain?

huntsman

10th Nov 2005, 00:08

and, ummm, do they intend to run the 200's long term, or upgrade if/when they are successful?

Bentleigh

10th Nov 2005, 00:51

Tickle me Pink

A little bit of digging on the Ozjet website http://www.ozjet.com.au/employment/PilotTC.pdf reveals:

You have to provide a $30,000 bank guarantee to cover the cost of training if you stay (or they survive) for first 3 years.

Captains $100,000 per annum plus super, until check-to-line when it goes to $120,000 per annum plus super.

F/O's $60,000 per anum plus super, until check-to-line when it goes to $75,000 per annum plus super.

$75 if you have a lay-over greater than 8 hours away from your base.

Cheap aircraft, cheap crews

polemic

10th Nov 2005, 03:16

5 airlines paying that amount give or take, it is only going to get harder to push the rates up towards those that qantas enjoys.

Tankengine

10th Nov 2005, 04:41

With that pay I hope the fuelburn kills them quickly!:mad:

I hope the crews get into QF with the endorsement without having to pay!

Anyone know if that is a set salary or if more pay for higher hours? For eg QF base pay is on 55 hours per month but crews do 65-90 and icrease takehome way above the "salary" in the CA! :ok:

A pommy mate of mine is delivering #3 shortly!

gaunty

10th Nov 2005, 05:47

waav8r me a tree hugger, nah! doesn't mean I am not sensitive to the environment nor a champion of progress. And I have an uneasy relationship with Greenpeace, but you cant deny they certainly get out the message.

Ozjet certainly wasn't started to provide jobs for the boys but listening to what's going on here you would think so.
It was started to find work for aircraft that are no longer welcome in the more sophisticated parts of the world.
And to capitalise on the "Aussie battler syndrome", sorry but we have grown past that and are way more sophisticated than they imagine.

Oz has a nonpareil reputation for technology take up and leadership in all manner of world issues including Kyoto.

I agree with you on Kyoto and so does my environmental scientist and policy advisor elder daughter.
I also believe that the carbon tax concept is a good start to focussing the world on who is profligate or not and a means of fixing it.

But that doesn't mean we should tolerate a giant leap backwards in the use of aircraft that we have spent several decades growing away from in the hell bent pursuit of "business".

All Australian businesses who consume resources and produce emissions are now required to comply with all manner of codes and regulation, why not this one.

As I write this I am looking out my home office window over the valley, at a sparkling, gin clear day and I can smell the jasmine and rose bushes flowering outside.:ok: and I live inner city.;) Notwithstanding enormous growth it is "cleaner" than it was decades ago....hang on there goes one of the new H2 fuel cell powered buses.....

OK so how many of those do we need to "pay back" the extra over emissions of a B737-200 against a B737-NG, or why should we not bank the difference.

Where do you draw the line? easy peasy, where it is NOW and keep the pressure on to raise it as fast as is practicable . We should not tolerate any degradation of it.

That sorta handles you point about business class and not leaving the gate unless you are as full as a goog.
Business class is market driven and an additional source of revenue to mitigate the high cost of the modern technology.

Overall it is the benchmark fuel burn per pax using modern technology that is the point. Significantly higher fuel burn with an artificially reduced load is what is unfriendly.

Cheers in heated agreement :ok:

chimbu warrior

10th Nov 2005, 10:29

Boy those smokin' JT8D's have sure sparked some smoke on this thread!

Might it have occurred to anyone that the 732's are an interim aircraft to get the show up and running? Just curious, because Ryanair and Easyjet also kicked off with 732's, but once they gained momentum quickly moved to a more modern fleet.

Tankengine, I seriously doubt that Geoff Dixon is just waiting for the demise of Ozjet so he can get his hands on some current 732 drivers.

Anyway I suspect that an alternative for the business traveller is a positive thing, and I applaud the good-old-fashioned bond approach as an alternative to the buy-a-rating trend. I wish them well.

Capn Bloggs

10th Nov 2005, 11:05

Gaunty,

the extra over emissions of a B737-200 against a B737-NG
Apart from a bit of smoke from maybe 4 x 200s, probably the same?

Both probably pump out less noxious gases than your D!@#$%&h Rickshaw! :p :}

Meeb

10th Nov 2005, 18:04

Might it have occurred to anyone that the 732's are an interim aircraft to get the show up and running? Just curious, because Ryanair and Easyjet also kicked off with 732's, but once they gained momentum quickly moved to a more modern fleet.

That was 10 years ago mate! :rolleyes:

If they want cheap airframes then the -300 would have been the way to go, cheap to buy, better fuel effeciency and nearly as quiet as an NG.... but that would have meant the backer of this 'airline' having to put his hand in his pocket, something he is adverse to... he has a few old clunkers knocking about and FR is looking for a scrap yard to park their -200's... :rolleyes:

apacau

10th Nov 2005, 21:25

Looks like they launched and are now open for booking. Press release below!

ALL-BUSINESS-CLASS AIRLINE OZJET

GETS GREEN LIGHT TO START OPERATIONS

New all-business-class airline OzJet has been granted an Air Operator’s Certificate to fly scheduled services in Australia.

OzJet, founded by Australia’s international aviation and motor racing identity Paul Stoddart, announced today that it had received its AOC from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority after an exhaustive application process.

OzJet intends to start flying scheduled services between Australia’s two biggest cities, Sydney and Melbourne, at fully-flexible economy prices from Tuesday, November 29, 2005.

It will start taking bookings though its Customer Contact Centre on telephone 1300 737 000 from 8am today as well as on its new website, www.ozjet.com.au

From Tuesday, November 15, bookings can also be made via travel agent global distribution systems. In the meantime travel agents can book via the special travel agent section on the OzJet website.

OzJet passengers in the first three months will have the chance to win rides in Formula One Two-Seater racing cars built by the Minardi team that Mr Stoddart owned for the past five years.

The airline’s advertising will feature Murray Walker, the much-loved Voice of Formula One motor racing commentary.

Mr Stoddart said that OzJet receiving its AOC was “the best day” of his aviation career, which includes operating the British-based European Aviation charter and spare parts business for almost two decades.

“To get the licence to operate an all-business-class airline in my home country, after many months and countless hours of hard work by what started as a very small OzJet team and has now grown to a size ready to start commercial operations soon, is very satisfying indeed,” Mr Stoddart said from Bournemouth in England.

“The application process with CASA has been rigorous but enormously professional and I now look forward to being in Australia for our first scheduled services between Sydney and Melbourne – one of the world’s busiest air routes – from November 29.

“OzJet intends to change the nature of business travel in Australia by offering a high-quality, time-efficient service at modest cost.

“We will offer travelers great space, comfort and service.

“The 60 business-class seats in each OzJet Boeing 737 are luxurious, there is an abundance of room to stretch your legs and read a broadsheet newspaper comfortably, and our customers can take three pieces of hand luggage, up to 20kg in total, with them in the cabin.

“We will have proper hot meals on fine chinaware and complimentary beverages with friendly and consistent great customer service.”

OzJet’s standard fare between the two capitals will be $325, with the return trip $650.

The airline intends to extend its services during 2006 to include Brisbane, Adelaide, Canberra and Perth as it increases its fleet from three to up to 10 aircraft.

All OzJet planes will have seats configured 2x2 either side of the aisle, eliminating middle seats.

OzJet’s economy fares should meet the best-fare-of-the-day requirements of many business travelers, while allowing them to travel business class with a service level they could not otherwise expect.

OzJet aims to save business travelers as much as 20 per cent in time

with its Internet check-in facility, because of customers not needing to be at the airport as early,
by allowing three pieces of carry-on luggage, meaning many passengers can avoid baggage queues, and
by having the quickest disembarkation from aircraft with a maximum of only 60 passengers.
OzJet customers can also avail themselves of the most convenient and time-efficient parking options at Sydney and Melbourne airports – at Airport Valet in Sydney and Business Park (South) in Melbourne.

The airline will have check-in counters at Terminal 2 in Sydney and Terminal 3 in Melbourne.

In Sydney it will use primarily Gate 39 in Terminal 2 but also gates 38 and 40, while in Melbourne it will use Gate 12 exclusively in its initial phase.

In Melbourne it will have a ground-level Customer Service Office in front of the Business Carpark (South) and almost directly below Gate 12, allowing for quick and easy check-in and exit on return.

OzJet chief executive Hans van Pelt said the carrier wanted to become “a unique networking opportunity in the Australian skies on an airline that means business”.

“We offer compelling value by providing business-class travel for no additional cost and with a suite of additional benefits,” Mr van Pelt said.

“We have the ability to offer a different product and service to a large and growing market that is becoming more concerned with service and on-time performance.

“We have a commitment to deliver great service and to treat our customers with respect and as friends.

“Come on board to experience a business-class jet at flexible, economy prices.

“The greatest long-term advantage for OzJet is operating in an environment which other Australian airlines cannot.

“Even if our competitors try to discount fares they simply cannot match OzJet’s product.”

OzJet is fast approaching 100 staff and yesterday presented “wings” to 24 cabin crew graduates. The Customer Contact Centre staff have also completed extensive training and are on duty today to take the first bookings.

Ejector

10th Nov 2005, 21:57

OzJet to fly on November 29

11nov05

THE newest domestic airline, OzJet, expects to begin flights by the end of the month.

The new all-business class airline has been granted an Air Operator's Certificate today from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

"OzJet intends to start flying scheduled services between Australia's two biggest cities, Sydney and Melbourne, at fully-flexible economy prices from Tuesday, November 29, 2005," OzJet said in a statement today.

The airline, run by former Minardi Formula One racing team head Paul Stoddart, said it would start taking bookings today and plans to run eight flights a day, in each direction, between Melbourne and Sydney.

"Our point of difference is going to be price," Mr Stoddart said.

OzJet's standard fare between the two capitals will be $325, with the return trip $650. p>The airline will have check-in counters at Terminal 2 in Sydney Airport and Terminal 3 in Melbourne Airport.

OzJet intends to extend its services next year to include Brisbane, Adelaide, Canberra and Perth as it increases its fleet from three to up to 10 Boeing 737 aircraft, each of which will have 60 business-class seats.

MrWooby

10th Nov 2005, 23:06

Will Ozjet survive ? I don't think so ! However Qantas will need to pick up its game to combat them. I recently flew to Melbourne on a 767, business end full of suits, after 20 mins standing at the baggage carousel with still no sign of our bags I approached baggage services and said "you've got 200 pissed off people waiting for their bags where are they". They replied that it had just landed. When I replied that is just bull****, I have been waiting for 20 mins at the carousel with not even an announcement, they said that they would look into it, the bags appeared about 5 minutes later.

Maybe QF management could employ a few of the people that they will use to stand around at look at how many passengers use Ozjet to actually monitor their own performance.

It so frustrating when the aircrew do a great job only to have passengers get pissed off because QF managment won't employ enough people to do the basic ground jobs.

waav8r

10th Nov 2005, 23:54

Congratulations again to the OzJet operations team with the issue of an AOC this morning! Great work and further - a mate in CASA tells me that the level of professionalism that permeates the OzJet organisation is second to none in Australia.

On a side note to Barbossa - please do us the courtesy and check your facts before posting. On question from Bentleigh as to whether these aircraft (737-229) are banned from nightflight in Europe - you responded with conviction:

"And Bentleigh is right - these 737's have been banned from nightflights in Europe - hence their introduction down here."

You are positively wrong on this account - so go to the back of the class and wash out your mouth with Pine-O-Clean.

This aircraft is NOT -I SAY AGAIN, NOT banned from flying at NIGHT or day, rain or shine anywhere in the so-called civilised world (except the normal curfew regulations applying at selected airports to ALL aircraft in this category - including 300/500 and NG's).

Sure the 200 haven't been seen much in Australian skies for a number of years, but they do in fact operate extensively and successfully throughout Europe and North America, flown by very mature and professional airlines as well as a number of start-up's.

So GAUNTY - I appreciate your position but suppose where I differ in opinion, is that I acually consider the 200 to be a contemporary aircraft, even though it obviously has come towards the tail-end of its economical life-cycle. Clearly - OzJet will not fly them forever and my prediction is that once the concept is validated and proven a success, a fleet renewal program will be initiated. It is only prudent business practise to limit capital costs for a start-up airline, and seeing that Stoddart owns a number of them, he would be mad not to use them for this exciting start-up.

Also - a last chance to enjoy (for a couple or three years) the crackle of a pair of JT8D's taking off over Botany Bay is hardly going to alter our planet in its orbit now is it?;)

gaunty

11th Nov 2005, 02:20

waav8r I doubt very much that anything I say here will ever change the course of history, but it needed to be said.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

IF they last long enough it is possible and who can tell what the Gods have in store for us, after all they gave VB the Ansett collapse, that they may have enough shekels to upgrade the fleet maybe to -300s.

The numbers simply dont add up for a transition of the existing concept to modern equipment.

the crackle of a pair of JT8D's yeah, for an occasional treat.
It must have been a runway change at Jandakot this am but I was awoken from a really deep slumber about 5:45 by the unmistakeable sound of a pair of Lyc IGSO-540-A1Ds, always just a teensy bit short of self destruction ;).
Thought I was having a dream about the good 'ol days and the CFS/Southern Airlines Rotto run at first.:} With 10 minute sectors "twas very hard on super and turbo charged steeds.
Same vintage I 'spect.:p

BTW: as I said before if young Bretag is around it will be professionally operated.:ok:

Capn Bloggs

11th Nov 2005, 06:09

young Bretag
He'll have a few grey hairs now I suspect! :p

Chimbu chuckles

11th Nov 2005, 06:53

Gordon is a top fella and very professional to boot....I suspect the crews at Ozjet will have a wail of a time for as long as it lasts.

I did a sim check once with a very (and openly) gay captain and GB as the checky...GB gave us a quadruple engine failure over the GAFA at night and while the captain busied himself gliding to Alice I busied myself trying to get 4 relights...after many failed attempts had all 4 running and turned to my crash buddy with the words..."There...fixed!" to which he replied "Ohh Chucky I was going to do a WONDERFULL glide approach":( ...with heavy 'listhp' engaged I replied "Listen bitch I just saved your arse...say "thankyou Chuck" "Ohh...Thankyou Chuck".

Poor GB didn't quite know what to say...god did we laugh!!!:ok:

Personally I hope it lasts a very long time....it is after all what we all would like to be doing...providing a top notch product and friendly service in a small friendly outfit....and in an aeroplane that still needs a pilot to fly it yet:ok:

As to the noise issue...we'll see I guess....I like jet noise:E

You think the old JT8s are noisy?...you wanna hear a TU154 takeoff from inside your 767 cockpit at the holding point at DXB.:E You can still here them clearly when they reach Vr....man's aeroplane:ok:

ys120fz

11th Nov 2005, 07:42

"Young" Gordon is a very professional chap, somewhat moreso than the former CP of Pacific Blue.

Incidentally, the parent organization seems to have overlooked his major indiscretion in the land of the long white cloud and reinstated him in BNE. I guess they see the fact that he will have to tolerate the Virgin Joke Book, and the corny Brisvegas crap, not to mention the air-robics as sufficient punishment for his foolish behaviour; whilst that may be punishment bordering on driving him off his nut, it doesn't seem enought to this PPRuner..

It seems it may be time to give the press a call on this one.

I hope they last as well. I might even give them a call as 16 years away from home is a long time. I even promise that if I am given a checking position I will ensure the check is done BEFORE writing it off!

amos2

11th Nov 2005, 09:34

So, tell us, those of you that know Gordon Bretag and Geoff Harris of Ozjet, a little of these two. Put us in the picture!

Dehavillanddriver

11th Nov 2005, 10:42

ys120 fu

You obviously have a serious problem, I strongly suggest that you seek counselling as you are just going to put yourself into an early grave!

This thread is about Ozjet and I can't see why you need to inject your particular brand of invective here.

As far as I am aware the "CP" of Pacific Blue - which there isn't one, but the Flight Ops Manager is still there.

Sunfish

11th Nov 2005, 18:26

On a slightly ominous note, it appears from the Pprune rumours and news page that Mr. Stoddart's european operation has closed up and the affected pilots are not pleased. They believe the airraft involved will be coming here.

Barbossa

11th Nov 2005, 21:40

Sunfish points out the bleeding obvious that most of you "dreamers" seem to want to ignore. I say again - check out the European forums and you'll see what type of operater this bloke is. And talk about a mediocre (read lame) interview in the press "to Dixon and Godfrey - please leave us alone - we're just little guys".

Remember this is a market that VB needs to survive - and it is going to move heaven and earth to get a part of it. This is also a market on which QF domestic deeply depends - and it will use every card in its hand to play it.

Waav8r - your comments re-"professionalism" of their AOC process are laughable.

Lets look at the facts;
1. Stoddart is targetting the high-end business market with 33 year old aircraft. That is an oximoron. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Over the past 5 years the business market has woken up to being ripped off - you don't think that they are going to see it and feel the rip off with being asked to pay very high fares with a product which in essence is "mutton dressed up as lamb"?
2. The business traveller wants frequency and flexibility above all else. Then its network, then its product. OZjet has a questionable product only.
3. Unless I am mistaken they are paying the lowest pilot rates outside of GA in Australia. Your ignorance of this is breathtaking seeing as it has to be the most frequently raved about issue on PPRUNE.
4. You applaud them paying for endorsements and hiring crews from GA. Well, der! What pilot (even GA) is going to outlay $A30K of his own dosh for an endorsement that he can only use in a declining number of 3rd world countries?

Inevitably I will be attacked for knocking down the tall poppy. Really I could care less about OZJet - personally I wont fly anything but QF. They may not be the best airline in the world but they are the best we've got. Most often cheaper, significant network, frequent flier prog, etc etc.

What bothers me most is the continuing bastardisation and degradation of the airline industry in Australia. Even in India, where we would expect to see cheap start-ups, every one of the new airlines is either buying brand new or leasing nearly new aircraft. Stoddart's model ignores all the basic lessons of modern aviation sustainability. As you all know, the new benchmark for pilot salaries when you come to negotiate with your airlines will now be OZJet's level. What he saves on lease costs on newer aircraft will be drowned out by the high cost of maintaining them reliably, or, as is undoubtably the case given Stoddarts European history, the even higher costs of repairing them after the fact. This guy is demonstrating to you, as he did with Minardi (and in particular the debacle during the 2005 MEL grand prix) that he does not outlay a single cent in strategic planning. He will only spend if he has to and if he can get around that he will. Read the history of European.

Absurdly you applaud him for being smart in starting with these crappy 737-200's to prove that the model works and then upgrading later. You can't save your way to success. This very strategy will be his undoing. When the product (cabin) starts to look tatty (that'll take about a month), and reliability starts to bite, and the punters who travel on OZJET to send a message to QF realise the reality, then this little venture will struggle. And a la Godfrey during the first few years of VB Stoddart will be out in the media bleeting and moaning about how the poor Aussie battler is getting a rough ride.

All I hope is that their existence is brief; and that their inevitable failure is quick and painless for all the staff involved, unlike the poor bastards in European who have been dragged through the Stoddart circus for years.

VH-Cheer Up

11th Nov 2005, 23:14

Sounds like OzJet is a starter with the 200's.

Anyone know if they are still planning to add services using flying gas-chambers (146's)?

Or is "planning" not the operative word?

BusyB

12th Nov 2005, 11:11

You really should look a little closer at Stoddarts record over the years with EAC/EAL. He's shafted his staff regularly.

cunninglinguist

12th Nov 2005, 11:33

P.Stoddart = W.Seymour = G.McGowan = crap pay and conditions working for a shonky :mad: :{

lame1

12th Nov 2005, 12:29

little birdy suggests the joys of offshore maint recently came home to roost.Is there any truth in a hyd line bursting recently.I personally cant imagine the Romanians dropping the ball,after all we all know that Romania is the centre for engineering excellence.

RENURPP

13th Nov 2005, 02:41

I am not taking sides here, just pointing out that you may be a lttle out of touch.What pilot (even GA) is going to outlay $A30K of his own dosh for an endorsement that he can only use in a declining number of 3rd world countries?

There are plenty of guys actuall paying $30K for a 146 endorsement in NJS!!

I suspect Alliance is the bottom of the barrell by a country mile when it comes to pay, not sure about sky west, how ever I would be supprised if they were much higher.

Woomera

13th Nov 2005, 05:22

The thread title is Ozjet is an airline - please adhere to the title, play the ball, not the man.

Some of the posts here concern me - cunninglinguist's for example! I will let the posts stand for now, but one sniff of the usual lawyers letters and the thread will be gone.

Please refrain from any reference to individuals, whether derogative or other wise!

:*

Woomera

cart_elevator

13th Nov 2005, 06:47

Mr Wooby

you've got 200 pissed off people waiting for their bags where are they". They replied that it had just landed. When I replied that is just bull****

If any person approached me in that manner, I would give them the fobb-off too. Ground staff aren't there to take abuse !

Regardless of who you are, you cant speak to people like that ....give it a rest .... have you tried waiting for bags at places like LAX or LHR ? My last pax into LHR I was in First, and still waited for almost an hour for my bags.... its part of the airline game - get over yourself

:mad:

MrWooby

13th Nov 2005, 07:11

Cart_Elevator, I have no problem waiting for bags, if you read my previous post you will see that it is written from the point of view re concern for the passenger not myself. Standing around seeing passengers getting angry that their baggage hasn't arrived and ground staff showing no concern at all, is not a good way to run an airline, especially when you're trying to compete against a new business class airline. You will also see that I lay the blame at Qantas management understaffing critical areas. However, I will not accept being lied to by ground staff.

Capn Bloggs

13th Nov 2005, 10:37

You're out of line, Cunning: if it wasn't for one of those gents, you wouldn't be where you are today...

gaunty

13th Nov 2005, 13:16

And having said that, go to the PPRuNe search and enter European Air Charter.

He is not even in their class.

And the training bonds? Unless I am mistaken and I hope the pilots concerned have done their homework, because if it does turn to tears they are an asset the Liquidator can come after for the unexpired portions to repay the creditors.

Eyes wide shut.:rolleyes:

Still, they are born every minute.

Todays Sunday Times reports 60 odd Perth wannabe FAs paid $1,000 up front for "training" to work for "Antipodes Air Charter".
The airline "owned" by a Glen Poulton an ex BA FA whose last known address was a boarding house in the UK.
No AOC, no British Tourist License, not anything a cursory search would throw up and many warnings on PPRuNe to boot.:{

Still they all fell for Alan Bond, Christopher Skase, John Elliot et al.

Pilots, FAs and techies should not be allowed to enter any aviation contractual arrangements without a note from a responsible non aviation person.:p:*

BAE146

13th Nov 2005, 20:20

Spot on, as usual, gaunty . I shared THIS (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171767) with fellow Ppruners a while back and still stand by it !

TIMMEEEE

13th Nov 2005, 22:49

Spot on BAe146 and Barbarossa

I agree with many others here that something is smelly about this new start-up.

In my opinion (as well as many others) Mr Stoddart hasnt got the formula right at all.
Firstly old B737's that are not fuel efficient at all when compared to the B737-800.
This will deter many an astute business person.

Secondly, lack of flexibility in timetables - businesspeople both want and need this!
Thirdly, no seamless capability for connections.
Fourth, no lounges such as the Qantas club for the travelling businessman.
Lastly to top it all off, if there is a breakdown they just cant get you on the next flight and your day will become very long and unenjoyable.

Reading about how the staff are treated overseas and owed alot of money (shafted was one word used by an employee) then I cant believe there are people waiting to queue up, only to be rogered royally!

I just hope it doesnt all end in tears.

elektra

14th Nov 2005, 02:49

Must tell the folks who started TAA with a bunch of civilianized ex WW2 C-47s that they were wrong. Especially given that they started passenger ops. from a tin shed at Laverton! They should have waited for a new terminal then started with the shiny new DC-4s that they did in fact get not a long time after start-up. Having got the ¡°proof of concept¡± they went on to be first in the world (outside US) in getting the Convair 240, then the Viscount, Electra, 727 and DC-9, on and on in excellence until ¡°smart¡± businessmen got involved and stuffed it royally.

There is no suggestion that the OZJET operations will not be safe. As to whether they get the marketing mix right, time and the marketplace (and hopefully not needed the ACCC) will tell. TAA started with the phrase ¡°one fare for all-the lowest¡± which was not widely agreed with at that time when the likes of ANA (a QF style powerfully entrenched operator) were only selling first class.

The whole point of deregulation is that the market decides. That is a wonderful and long-overdue step forward. Wartime aside, all pilots and cabin-crew are volunteers. If they don¡¯t like it they¡¯ll leave and go on to greener pastures. As with the SLF. For every peoples Express that don't make it there's the odd Southwest that does.

I once flew with a great outfit in Eurpoe that started with a clapped out Caravelle and the pilots wives as cabin crew. That¡¯s the stuff of dreams. Safe? Yes. Business risky? Hell yes!. Fun and a creator of new jobs and concepts? Sure thing.

I am not an investor, will never fly with them and may never even see one of their aircraft. But as I hope we all do I wish them:

Good luck.

And, lest the odd reader hasn\'t seen this quote which I\'ll bet has supported more than one of we fools who have started airlines.....

\"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.\"

Theodore Roosevelt

VH-Cheer Up

14th Nov 2005, 03:09

Firstly old B737's that are not fuel efficient at all when compared to the B737-800.
This will deter many an astute business person.
What makes you think that?

Most business people couldn't give a rat's about how efficient their supplier is.

They only worry about the price the pay for the service or product they receive.

Give them on-time, high-quality, J-class service for a less than Y-class price, and some of them will give it a go. I don't think they'll be sitting there sipping their Seaview worrying about the J8TD9's gulping down the A1.

But if the age of the aircraft means reliability problems which lead to the schedule getting disrupted too often, then the innovators will soon go back to where they feel better served.

That's the marketplace at work...

waav8r

14th Nov 2005, 04:12

Barbossa, I don't know your agenda and I don't really care, but i would respectfully suggest that you retire your identity in these forums as your credibility is currently at an all time low. You say in your last post that my

"comments re-"professionalism" of their AOC process are laughable"

and go on with your drivel about the age of the OzJet aircraft, while offering no comment whatsoever regarding the experience and skills of the people in the organisation:confused: :confused:

Am I wrong in suggesting that the proper context for the word "professional" is the PEOPLE in an organisation and not the machinery or equipment that they happen to work with? If it is otherwise - please elaborate.

You go on to say;

"Unless I am mistaken they are paying the lowest pilot rates outside of GA in Australia. Your ignorance of this is breathtaking"

Well - you ARE mistaken and you know nothing about my ignorance or lack of such, so you can take a deep breath now.:}

Oh, and GAUNTY, as you have suggested yourself - GB is indeed a true professional and the point you raise -

"And the training bonds? Unless I am mistaken and I hope the pilots concerned have done their homework, because if it does turn to tears they are an asset the Liquidator can come after for the unexpired portions to repay the creditors."

- have been covered by him in writing to the satisfaction of all the pilots who have joined this new airline. The intent behind the bond is ONLY to ensure that the pilots getting the opportunity to fly a BOEING will return the service back to the airline who have made the capital outlay in endorsing them on a new aircraft type. So no, - there is not a chance that the newfound skills of the pilots can become an asset for the liquidator if it all turns pear-shaped.

I am sure that the concern from some of the posters in this forum, regarding the possible heartbreak it would cause the people who have joined OzJet is appreciated, but I doubt that there is a single person who have joined OzJet up until now, that would not have evaluated their own staus quo compared with the possibility of this new outfit not working out, before deciding in the favour of taking the plunge.

Nothing ventured - nothing gained - we would all be sitting around bitching about the lack of customer service at QANTAS forever, if it wasn't for people like Stoddart and the team who believe that his assessment of the level of discontentment among QANTAS frequent business flyers on domestic services in Australia is indeed correct, and that there is room for a niche market airline catering to people willing to pay a little bit extra to be given good service, good food and have room to stretch out or get a bit of work done while travelling.

Either way - this thread on PPrune will be interesting reminiscing for some of us a few years down the track:ok:

gaunty

14th Nov 2005, 08:18

elektra the world has actually moved on a bit from all of that and Teddy Roosevelts homily is true but wildly out of context.

VH-Cheer Up I'm sure the business people he is aiming at do give a rodents thingummy.
Our company has won two separate industry "Excellence in Customer Service", decided by clients, both three years back to back and "Excellence in Practice", decided by our peers, likewise. To a man, they insist on best practise with the most efficient in an extremely competitive market.

What we are talking about here are market barriers to entry, you wanna play with the big kids with the real money you gotta do better than warmed over.
If you lock yourself into a market on price with a flaky capital base and with a cost base consisiting of predominantly fuel crewing and maintenance , then you are at the absolute mercy of your competitors

I guess we'll see, I read the market in a totally different way and we turn over around $120 million a year.

waav8r right pleased am I to hear that young Bretag has not forgotten his lessons.:ok:

But their success will NOT be decided on the level of the professionalism of the tech and maintenance crew, by definition this should be a given and be invisible.
It will be fought out in the marketing strategy and the depth of the pockets.
The pressure will be on the aforementioned pros when it gets tight, the tech dragon rears its head and Stoddart has to come good on his promise in keeping the schedule intact.

Leaps of faith for the pilots getting the opportunity to fly a BOEING ? I don't think it is useful to go there.:uhoh:
It might qualify as such were they to have to pay up front and I have a suspicion that the company did not have any options were they to get the numbers of crew they needed.

I, like you watch with much interest.

BTW
The A380 tour thread threw up the Clay Lacy website, I had a gander and there it was, "The Mission Statement". I met the gentleman many moons ago he may not remember me, but he has remained engraved on my memory.
His way of dealing with people was to me an inspiration.
Here 'tis.
Clay Lacy Aviation exists to provide our clients superior aviation services when and where they are needed worldwide, to establish long-term business relationships, and to serve the greater community through an honorable, socially conscious and financially strong company. Copyright Clay Lacy is exactly how I remember him.

Barbossa

14th Nov 2005, 11:02

Waaver8 - laughable again. Keep posting; your rhetoric is breathtaking. Don't know GB; sounds like he's quite a guy. So was the captain of the Titanic from what I have read.

Setting aside discussions of how they got to where they are today, the point remains that it is an ill-conceived and structured venture. The punters might not care about how much fuel the engine's are burning, but they will care about reliability. They will care about a limited schedule. They will care about no network, they will care about no lounges, etc etc etc. Given their only offering MEL-SYD at this stage and then..what is it next, er...MEL-ADL, then they are basically asking QF corporates to give up the QF discounts for the sake of one route; so, they pay more on all other routes. Makes a lot of sense, eh?

They will also care about the fact that these are old aircraft. They look old - they've so much "steel plating" riveted over damaged and tired areas that they look like battleships. The cabin will look good for a little while, but in an ageing airframe it wont be long before things sag...then it will be just tired old rubbish. Then we will see the mutton currently dressed up as lamb.

And you can have all of the professionalism in the world, but if the model wont work it wont work.

Oh, and by the way..administrators, or liquidators, couldn't give a sh*t about promises made by chief pilots. If its a bonded asset, which is in essence a financial obligation, then they'll go after it.

Suggest you take off the rose coloured spectacles mate - you can't see the wood for the trees, or, more pointedly, the sh*t from the shinola.

Seriously though, are there really pilots in Australia flying jets on high-capacity RPT operations earning less than OZJet??

waav8r

14th Nov 2005, 11:47

Barbossa

- as you clearly have comprehensively lost the plot, I suggest we just call it off and leave it to the market place to decide whether OzJet is a good idea or not.

You really ought to have your respiratory system checked before your next medical though - sounds like you may be anemic as well...

stillontheground

14th Nov 2005, 15:58

:eek: Does anyone else on this thread seem to think that BARBOSSA is actually Legal Counsel??? I am starting to think that now :E

S.O.T.G.

elektra

14th Nov 2005, 16:59

Gaunty

In one of the first comprehensive studies of the effects of the 1978 deregulation of the US domestic aviation industry, the General Accounting Office found (I think in 1984, haven’t got the original document here) that the real benefits to the consumer and the industry came from new entrants. They didn’t even have to last that long but the fact that they could enter the market made it contestable and kept the “big guys” on their collective toes. That’s where the Teddy Roosevelt quote comes in. People willing to give it a go. Many lose, some win. Some like Compass 1 and 2, People’s Express, Laker and many many more show great promise and then fail for reasons other than the “model”. OK….that’s Capitalism 101.

The point is that we in Australia (though I don’t live there now) haven’t really ever seen the benefits of deregulation in the wider sense. Sydney airport is still curfew bound and dominated by a single major carrier. Had Sydney West (Badgery’s Creek) got up a la Gatwick or many many other second airports…then we might have seen domestic and international competition on a scale common in Europe but unknown in Oz. At any major European airport (and more especially the second airports like Gatwick and Ciampino) you can see daily carriers operating, some flourishing, some not, with names totally unknown in the narrow world of stifled competition that is the Australian industry. There truly is a world beyond Qantas dominated skies. But due to the direct but unpublished subsidies given to Qantas by virtue of continuing decisions to constrain the infrastructure and route access required for real competition thousands of jobs are not so much lost as never created. That’s why Ozjet is so important. Giving it a go is not just an Australian concept, it is the universal cure for the ills of monopoly domination.

I have no brief for Ozjet and know of them only through what I’ve read on Prune and the Ozjet website. But they are keeping the industry vibrant and allowing a few pilots a fresh chance to enter the industry. That’s why I have on the rose-coloured spectacles…I simply wish them well and yet know that their fate is in the hands of the market. They may well not last…..but their impact will.

Sunfish

14th Nov 2005, 17:36

Well said Elektra. Barb, I think you have lost the plot a little.

There are plenty of business travellers who don't give a flying **** about frequent flyer points because they are inconvenient to use, especially for a hard pressed businessperson who can't always plan their holidays three months in advance.

As for lounges, they are another waste of time, especially the Qantas ones. Sure, they are pleasant enough, and I note plenty fo people dutifully tapping away on their laptops. However when I travel, business or privately, I do not wish to spend my time waiting for an aircraft reading businessporn, watching stock tickers, planning next years sales budget or negotiating deals. I just want to switch off, people watch and relax.

It will be interesting to see how Ozjet goes. Let the market decide.

TOPC

14th Nov 2005, 18:41

Yeah yeah it wont work we get it (Legal council BARBAROSA)/Gaunty Timmee Amos 146 etc. The sky is going to fall down .
Anyone can have a guess!
It is one thing to speculate ,it is a totally different thing to HOPE it wont succeed.A trait all to common on this forum.
AS PILOTS we all hate(with a passion) the new era of pay for a job/endorsement.$35000 for Jetstar ,$30000 for virgin , $20000 for Jitconnect ,Eastern Airlink need I go on. There are threads by the VERY SAME doomsters here that detest the latest Airline practices

HERE is a new airline saying WE WILL BREAK THE CYCLE. Pilots DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR A JOB HERE....
YET As pilots you totally sh!tcan OZJET.

Unless your posts are politically motivated or you have something to fear from this Airline .How can this be bad for the industry.

PPRuNe Towers

14th Nov 2005, 18:53

Unless your posts are politically motivated or you have something to fear from this Airline .How can this be bad for the industry.

Quite simply - the noise.

Regards
Rob

TOPC

14th Nov 2005, 19:32

No arguement there Rob.
However they cant be as bad as the old 707s DC8s F28s VC10s 727s DC9s etc that used to blast around the Aussie skies. otherwise.
Quite simply ;-
OZJET would not legally be allowed to operate the noise modified type in Aus. CASA would see to it Pronto .

Cheers.

PPRuNe Towers

14th Nov 2005, 19:51

Time will tell TopC. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong but you already have a very noise sensitive population - our archives regarding runway use in places like Sydney give ample proof of operational preferance succumbing to the local population, media and pollies. And that's when they've had 10 or more years to forget the sounds of the past.

My judgement is that they will freak. Stage 3 conversions are a scam and a sham using tuning for monitored frequencies rather than significantly reducing the, err, crackle of freedom. My shoulders stretch from horizon to horizon but I have the fingers of a whore house pianist. That's from years of hand pumping de-min water into Speys and playing an SP177 like a Strad. We were driven out of the skies. 15 years ago Innsbruck banned us outright and it spread from that day. Certification acceptance claims are cynical sophistry - instead have a look at the landing charges thoughout Europe.

That's the real story - anything up to 500% surcharge for these beasts depending on time of day.

I suspect there are a lot of heads desperately shoved in the sand.

Regards again from the Towers.

Edited to correct the 1st Austrian field to kick us out

Buster Hyman

14th Nov 2005, 20:24

Perhaps this is why he was going to use the 146's? Use them into SYD & the old Fat Alberts into the rest of the network...just a thought.

waav8r

14th Nov 2005, 22:02

Hey S.O.T.G Good to see you around here again. Not so sure about the identity of the poster(s) in question though. There are many multi-headed trolls out there, but i think L_C was a bit less anemic than our new friend;)
Speaking of identity - you really have to get serious about changing yours as well - less than two weeks and counting, ehh:ok:
:D

ELEKTRA - your comments are very incicive and you are spot on in your analysis. Your quote from Roosevelt is amazingly appropriate (amazing in this context - perhaps because when you look at todays US president it is wonderful to be reminded that there was a time when a US president actually HAD a brain and could use it. Heck, the one before this last one, even had a good head, just a shame he occasionally used his little one instead of the one on his shoulders...)

Sometimes a situation can get so stale and the position so bogged down that ANY change, in EITHER direction will be of long term benefit. The QANTAS board and senior management have abused their market dominance for too long, to the detriment of their employees, customers and sub-contractors. I shall welcome increased competition in the international arena as well, and hope for the sake of the Australian economy that our pollies wake up and look at the real consequences of propping up and protecting one private company to the detriment of others.

Sunfish

15th Nov 2005, 02:17

You just watch. Qantas will make a donation to the airline noise local protest group and they will wheel out Harold Scruby, Clover Moore, John Laws and all the rest of the Sydney pack over the question of noise.

Gomam

15th Nov 2005, 05:17

apparently 767 are being deployed on CBR routes..

anyone know if this is true?

gaunty

15th Nov 2005, 06:30

elektra with respect 1984 was a looooooong time ago and I think you wold find most observers of and participants in the industry will agree that the long term washup is a complete disaster.

And in any event despite what our friend would have us believe, the only things demographic we have in common with our US cousins is McDonalds and Coca Cola.

And we don't even need to start on the AT&T breakup into the Baby Bells and the deregulation of utilities to see that there are just some things that need to have some form of overall government "protection" for good of the common wealth.
Tell me what is good about needing up to three different telecom provider accounts to ring from Perth to Sydney.

In Australia, the airlines just happen to be one of them.

I dont give a rats bottom what they do in the US and Europe.

I have not seen ONE example of the headlong rush of Govt, both State and Federal to liberalise/deregulate, that has not seen the export of Australian jobs capital and profit overseas.

Try just for example Western Power in Western Australia not being able to provide the base load for a hot summers day AND the Government threatening to sue any organisation ($100,000 a time and Western Power customers to boot) who ran their air conditioners or machinery. :rolleyes: They then turned around and spent several gazillion million dollars hiring/buying DIESEL peak load gennies and still can't gaurantee that this year it will not be repeated.:mad: :mad: :mad:

They'd sold OUR farm just like they did OUR Qantas/Australian and OUR Telecom.

What's this got to do with airlines, the US and Europe have a very sophisticated road and rail network as an alternative. And the Atlantic has several ships a day between.

We are totally reliant on air services to be competitive in the world, it's part of the national estate.

The ONLY people who have made any money out of the aviation infrastructure is the Govt when they sold off anything not nailed down and Maquarie Bank who organised it.
The Sydney toll roads are a monster debacle and guess who pays for it in the end and guess where all the money goes.

Ex NSW Main Roads chief on the ABC the other day, says NSW citizens are now paying interest on interest with no end in sight and 5 to 10 times as much for their "private roads" than if they had been built by Govt, and there is a real chance the NSW Govt might just have to buy them back, because the citizenry cant afford the tolls. :{

elektra

15th Nov 2005, 06:56

Gaunty,

All good points, especially the telecom issue. What a real disaster!

Yet I doubt many would say that Southwest and Jet Blue are disasters. Lumbering great dinosaurs like USAir, PanAm, Eastern United, Delta etc etc (and their bloated pension schemes) were only ever propped up by the CAB and "cost-plus" airfares and are now propped up courtesy of the banks and the ever dwindling shareholders funds, a situation which cannot last much longer.

Its not a case opf black or white, regulation or no regulation. If the industry is not effectively contestable...due to infrastructure constraints or monoploly power or economic regulation...the consumers and jobs suffer. It is that simple. The fact that governments have stuffed up both the infrastructure and monopoly issues doesn't mean it can't be done.

The truth is that it is only newcomers (or the threat of them) that change the industry for the better. Keeping things the way they were in the name of stability or maintaining current salary levels is a fine high-minded goal...but it does involve a net transfer of income from consumers (and potential employees) to those currently employed by the "Legacy" carriers. The fact that this subsidy is not readily visible doesn't mean it's not there.

Right now if you and I had the money (and were perhaps foolish enough) we could invest $100 million and start a factory exporting boots, or engines or indeed almost anything else to the US. What we CANNOT do is lease a couple of B777LRs and try our luck on the SYD-LAX route. Exactly in whose interest is that?

stillontheground

15th Nov 2005, 07:58

:) Hi Waav8r,

I totally agree with you, but will change my name as soon as I have had my check as CM, which will be next week on the promo flying; and maybe even change it on November 29. Do you have any suggestions???? :confused:

I am leaning towards finally_off_the_ground... but I'm not too sure yet. :p

Looking forward to November 29. ;)

Still On the Ground...
(soon to be OFF THE GROUND)

Buster Hyman

15th Nov 2005, 10:47

Is "Screwed like everyone else in the Australian Aviation Industry" too long for a user name?:} :ouch:

Waste Gate

16th Nov 2005, 00:02

Gomam. . .

The 767 is doing MEL - CBR - MEL.

WG

frangatang

16th Nov 2005, 23:24

I thought stoddart would have learned his lesson with airlines after his disaster with those 747s in bournemouth england

gas-chamber

17th Nov 2005, 00:02

Back to ozjet. Plan A - convert serious sums of cash amassed over the last 20 years in to a dream and watch it all go up in smoke as kero converts to noise on empty planes. Every successful aviation entrepreneur needs to do this at least once just for the experience of being stony broke. Builds character, especially in displaced employees who are then forced to go on to do things they would never have dreamed of.
Plan B - cash and dream bit as above, but find that of 14 million people living on the SE seaboard, there are just enough who will pay for kero and don't care as long as the noise is no worse than the neighbours harley, which is legal, right? Guvmint don't care about noise either, as they can tax it. Despite kero consumption and noise tax, airline breaks even. Pilots come and go, using it as a stepping stone to better things. Everybody is having fun, nobody getting rich, nodody on the dole. Owner doesn't care he's not getting rich as it's considered cool to have an airline and just how much money does one person need anyway?
Plan C - two years into plan B, along comes stage 4 noise rules, surprise surprise. No choice now, have to re-equip, but not enough money in it to justify going to the banks. But, being just a teensy weeny bit pissed off with the loss of at least some revenue, qantas or virgin figure another jetstar or njs type deal would not be a bad idea. So, flog old planes off to indonesia, lease newer ones at mates rates via customer airline. Or sell aoc as going concern to highest bidder, retire to spain, write memoirs.

elektra

17th Nov 2005, 00:34

Some people’s desire to take joy in the prospect of failure, even lust after it…frightens me.

Everything we fly, the aircraft, the engines, the airlines, the air-routes, came because someone put on their rose coloured glasses for just long enough to say “why not”.

I’ve been a captain for 20 years and every time I see a slush covered runway, and a 15 hour flight ahead, with crummy en-route alternates to some over-stretched and under equipped US mega-hub….I can think of 20 reasons not to go. Yet, balancing it all, I go. I just don’t see unending cynicism as being part of the required mindset for an airline pilot.

I’m glad, some days, that PPrune didn’t exist when Reg Ansett was getting started, or Hudson Fysh at Qantas, or Lester Brain at TAA, or the guys who started ETOPS with the 757s…or the folks who put together the first Airbus A300 (against the “might” of Boeing, Douglas and Lockheed) ……they’d have NEVER started. And at what cost?

Mr. Stoddart may well be a rich egotistical knave, but if rejecting such folk was ever made a retrospective filter in our industry there’d be few airlines, few airlines and, dare I say it, few pilots!

stillontheground

18th Nov 2005, 13:36

;) Electra, Well Said!

I am so glad that someone said it. I am sooooooooooo sick and tired of people having a go at Ozjet! Trying to predict how many years or indeed months it will last! I bet that not one of these "fortune tellers" predicted the collapse of Ansett, or the success of Virgin Blue. Yes; we all know about the noise and age of the aircraft, and yes, we are all aware that it is a start up airline and that there are no reward systems yet in place... but honestly guys, Rome was not built in a day, and Virgin just announced up ITS plans for a reward system just a few days ago - but that didn't seem to stop anyone from travelling on Virgin until then!

I just would like to see more people trying to encourage the success of Ozjet as Australia's fourth carrier rather than constantly put it down. As Electra said, thankgod you lot weren't around when anyone came up with the concept for a new airline! You've got to be in it to win it! Come on guys, lets be more Australian about the whole thing. Give Ozjet a fair go!:ok:

Still on the Ground
(looking for a new name though)

Normasars

18th Nov 2005, 22:14

Electra, outstanding comments from somebody that has obviously been around a while and not just a flash in the pan.
There will always be the vocal few that spruik off and sling mud from afar, but one can guarantee that those few would never put their HARD EARNED(?) up in the pursuit of a vision. It's far tooooo easy to mock and throw abuse while riding on the coat tails of others.
Very UNAustralian.
BTW the only ones to benefit from B777LR SYD-LAX would be the engine manufacturer and Boeing as correct me if I'm wrong ETOPS would be a major hurdle on that one.

Tankengine

19th Nov 2005, 04:42

Normasars,
I am not sure what it has to do with the topic but SYD/LAX will be a A380 route, not a 777-200LR type. Regarding ETOPS, there would be no problem, 767s can do the route @180mins [empty] while 777 is over 200 mins. :D

404 Titan

19th Nov 2005, 11:44

I believe the B777-200LR will have 240 minute ETOPS approval on entry into service. With this there is nowhere on the planet the plane cann't reach flying in a straight line.

Barbossa

21st Nov 2005, 20:02

anyone see the OZJet TV ad during Business Sunday last weekend?

I think that just about sums it all up.

waav8r

21st Nov 2005, 22:11

The Age this morning:

History suggests Paul Stoddart is used to competing on just a wing and a prayer, writes Ian Porter.

FIRST Paul Stoddart once bought Minardi, the world's least successful formula one team. Now he plans to enter the Australian commercial aviation market, where the corporate graveyard is bulging with companies unable to handle the pace of the opposition.

And if OzJet — the new business-class airline — flies in a business sense, Australian investors may get a chance to own some shares in a public float that could be less than three years away.

Stoddart may not have a death wish, but he certainly likes to take on a challenge. And he is not afraid to put his money where his mouth is.

Minardi was the poorest-performing team in F1, but Stoddart's stint as owner was a success. At the back end of the grid, you don't measure success in wins and championships. Stoddart's feat was to keep the team alive when others were failing all around.

What's more, he says he made "quite a healthy profit" when he sold out of Minardi on October 31, and the sales proceeds form a large part of the $100 million he can draw on to get OzJet into the air.

As with his Minardi experience, Stoddart does not expect to win the airline race outright. Staying alive and achieving modest goals would fulfil his OzJet plan.

The new airline has $40 million in issued capital and Stoddart does not intend, or expect, to call on his "fighting fund" because he believes Qantas directors and management are "too sensible and too responsible" to come after OzJet with loss-leader pricing.

"The management know me well enough to know that there's no winners in a situation like that," Stoddart said from England on Friday.

He agrees that aggressive pricing by Qantas was what undid Compass, Compass Mark II and Ansett, but he argues that there are several critical differences between the situation then and the one OzJet will face when it launches its first flight on November 29.

"Things have changed since September 11, 2001, and the demise of Ansett," he said. "Virgin Blue and Jetstar have filled the low-cost hole, but not the business class hole."

OzJet will not take a big part of the Melbourne-Sydney market, which is one of the world's five busiest air routes. The initial schedule of eight flights a day between Melbourne and Sydney will represent around 1.8 per cent of the total market or 10 per cent of the business market — but that estimate is flexible.

Stoddart believes OzJet could expand that business class market because its fares will be within reach of people such as public servants and other business travellers whose employers send them economy.

The plan is to put 60 large leather seats into Boeing 737 planes, which usually carry 130 people, and let passengers carry on three pieces of hand luggage. Fewer passengers and carry-on baggage mean faster loading and disembarkation.

OzJet will also offer meals served on china crockery, and all for a return fare of $650. That's equivalent to the Qantas fully flexible economy air fare.

The Qantas return business class fare to Sydney has recently been cut from $1150 to $811 and Stoddart is banking on Qantas not being able to go much lower. "If Qantas dropped its business class fare to match us, then they'd have to price below their own full flexible economy price of $671, so what are they going to do with that price? Lower it to Jetstar prices?

"Then what are they going to do with Jetstar ? It could start a downward spiral and there are no winners out of that."

If that were to happen, OzJet would not be the sitting duck that Compass was because OzJet owns its own planes and will not have massive monthly lease payments to make. "If we are having a hard time, we can just adjust our schedules and contain our overheads."

Besides which, Qantas would not be able to offer the same sort of room or time savings even if it did match OzJet prices, he said.

"In any kind of a price war, we will stand our ground and appeal to the public to support us because they're not stupid," Stoddart said.

"They'll realise that, if we're gone the prices will go back up, and then some, to make up whatever they lost defending their market."

Stoddart owns the European Aviation group in Britain, which operates a large aviation spare parts and engineering business as well as charter flights. European Aviation has fitted out OzJet's 737s with their unique all business class interiors.

Despite the Australian graveyard of aviation operators, it was a simple decision to start an airline in Australia, he said.

"European has 300 competitors in Europe. There's a new airline opening almost every day," Stoddart said. "At full strength we are only going to have 10 737s, so we're not going to be this massive threat to Virgin Blue and Qantas.

"This is a nice market, the kind of market we can service and service well without getting such a foothold in market share that we are a threat to our competitors."

MELBOURNE-SYDNEY BUSINESS CLASS RETURN TICKET

OzJet $650
Virgin Blue $530
Qantas $811-$1133

Standard business class fare. Prices calculated on leaving in the morning and returning the following night.

amos2

22nd Nov 2005, 08:00

So this Virgin B/C ticket for 530 bucks...tell me more waver 8!? :confused:

Mr.Buzzy

22nd Nov 2005, 20:11

"In any kind of a price war, we will stand our ground and appeal to the public to support us because they're not stupid,"

bwahahaaaaaaa!

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Pass-A-Frozo

23rd Nov 2005, 07:03

They using the Callsign OZ501?? Saw a 737, OZ501 doing what looked like a local flight around Sydney or a trainer.

wessex19

24th Nov 2005, 00:05

my better half went on an agents "Jolly" yesterday out of Sydney down towards Cooma or thereabouts, said the service was great, seats were very comfortable, staff polite and friendly, only small downside was that she could notice slightly higher noise levels inside the aircraft!! Otherwise, she said they put on a great show. Good luck to all involved.

Mr.Buzzy

24th Nov 2005, 19:59

I'm yet to hear of an agents jolly that provides bad service.....

bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

ExEKWench

27th Nov 2005, 07:07

I've read all the preceding posts with interest.

I knew a lot of Compass Mk1 & 2 'victims' in the "sandpit". I hope Ozjet doesn't go the same way.

Does anyone know anything about the CC deal? Could be an interesting gig.

Personally, I'm all for shaking up QF. Ansett knew about service. VB is all very jolly, but frankly if you sling the punters a feed, at least they stay out of your hair for a while. The majority of QF crew wouldn't know good service if it bit them....and this applies to all classes of travel. Their catch phrase should be " Would you like some attitude with that? Or would you rather a large serve of patronizing condescenion on the side?". So there is definitely a gap in the market. Good luck to them....I hope they suceed.

VH-Cheer Up

27th Nov 2005, 08:31

I think there's a niche as long as the product stays reliable, too.

They have just announced a $200 one-way seat deal all this week. Obviously trying to encourage the punters to give it a whirl. $400 round trip makes it cheaper than DJ fully-flexible fares. Will be interesting to see how good the load factors are in the first few days.

The TV ad is pretty dire though. You'd have thought they could have done something better than "Do my ears deceive me or do those engines sound magnificent?" I'm sure they'll sound great to the residents of Rockdale, Redfern and Randwick, as well as Digger's Rest, Sunbury and Lower Plenty...

Their e-mail marketing is pretty primitive too. Still, they obviously aren't wasting any money dragging in experts to help them on non-core components of the business! Stoddy's even an extra in the TV advert!

Good luck, and to all who fly on her.

VHCU

gaunty

27th Nov 2005, 10:45

"Do my ears deceive me or do those engines sound magnificent?" sounds like he's using his Bartercard to pay for his "market positioning".

If QF or VB can be bothered responding he has just handed them an own goal

Geez as far back as the seventies even, Capt Bristow Stagg was pushing "cabin quiet" hushpower of the VC10 for BOAC, and it was a fantastic passenger aircraft. Made the pax feel warm and fuzzy but the ears of the people on the ground would ring for days after a departure or arrival with the sound of those magnificent engines. :rolleyes:

Beer Can Dreaming

27th Nov 2005, 22:36

Was this the same Captain Bristow that did adverts in Australia for Ronson electrical products back in the early seventies?

The add concluded thus, " And to the thief that stole my daughters Ronson hairdryer, I admire your taste, I dont admire your habits".

Yeah......that add worked a treat!!

As for the article quote:

"Australian investors may get a chance to own some shares in a public float that could be less than three years away."

Thats really comforting seeing as Virgin Blue shares are down over 35% since its float and in that same period they could have almost doubled their money investing in companies such as BHP or CSL.
Now Richard Branson is furious they paid a dividend to the shareholders that have lost so much!!!

On yer Dicky !!

Buster Hyman

28th Nov 2005, 01:01

I think Murray has saved his funniest quote till last! Classic stuff!!:ok:

relax737

28th Nov 2005, 04:34

BCD, I'm not sure when VB floated, but if you bought BHP shares in April 2003 at low $8's then you would have almost trebled your money.

Fortunately I did, but as always never nearly enough of them. Imagine if a punter had the balls to put his entire super into just one share, BHP, and 2 years and 7 months later took out almost three times the initial investment, less 15% tax of course.

Woodside has been almost as good.

I hope they make a go of it. All the best OzJet.

SkySista

28th Nov 2005, 07:11

Seen the shiney new web site? (notice the employment section is gone...)

Had a look-see, still a zillion tix for the flight tomorrow, so wonder how many are going on it then??

amos2

28th Nov 2005, 09:22

Whilst I would never dare contradict Gaunty...

I must say that I was sure that Capt Bristow, of the BA ads a trillion years ago, was one Capt Norman Bristow!

What do you think G? :confused:

Oh! and by the way R737...

that was a joke on the other thread...

I rather thought you, of all people,would have picked that! :ok:

Escape_Slide

28th Nov 2005, 09:35

I have had an interview today with a recruitment agency representing the interests of a new Melbourne Domestic and International start up. I have been sworn to absolute secrecy.

They are going to operate A320, A350 and A380 aircraft and the orders were placed at the Dubai airshow by their agency partners.

F***k what's happening ??? Are they loaded or what?

Gee wiz I hope Ozjet gets more than just a few passengers, but look, give them time it takes time to build traffic. $200 is not a bad deal although I would prefer the secuirty of back up aircraft any time because nothing more boring than getting stuck due to breakdowns. I think he has far too many flights for the start up. I reckon 1 in the AM and 1 in the PM is enough for the first month. OK so maybe I am not an airline brain but remember good old Jet Air that purple DC3? It went belly up because it couldn't attract the custom.

Wirraway

28th Nov 2005, 18:43

Tue "Herald Sun"

OzJet boss fires salvo
John Masanauskas
29nov05

OZJET owner Paul Stoddart yesterday lashed out at the Ansett administrators on the eve of his airline's maiden flight.

Melbourne-born Mr Stoddart said administrators KordaMentha had rebuffed his bid to buy two former Ansett properties now being leased by OzJet.
"I'm sick to death of them," he said. "They are doing our head in."

Mr Stoddart said he had offered KordaMentha an above-market price for OzJet's corporate headquarters in Garden Drive, Tullamarine.

The administrators had also proved difficult in talks to buy the former Ansett maintenance base at Melbourne airport, Mr Stoddart said.

But KordaMentha partner Mark Korda denied the claims.

"We have had talks with various parties and if we did receive above-market offers, we'd be delighted," Mr Korda said.

OzJet, aimed at business flyers, was to start services today between Melbourne and Sydney.

It is offering a special launch fare of $200 one way, but a standard one way ticket will cost $325.

Mr Stoddart said bookings for the first week had passed break-even point, but he had expected more support from the public.

"I'm amazed that Qantas has cut their business fares by a third recently," he said.

Qantas executive general manager John Borghetti said while he didn't want to put OzJet out of business, Qantas would keep up the pressure on fares.

"We will do what is legal and appropriate, and do it in a competitive way," Mr Borghetti said.

==========================================

Sunfish

28th Nov 2005, 19:15

Qantas will buy the Ansett properties just to keep potential new entrants out.

Buster Hyman

28th Nov 2005, 19:42

Let's hope there's a bidding war then...:E

relax737

28th Nov 2005, 20:11

you'll have to enlighten me amos2. On the joke I mean. I don't recall the thread, but haven't been here for a while until a couple of days back.

Let's hope there is a bidding war for former AN properties, and the price may go up, thereby benefitting those former Ansett people needing cash.

And I still say Go OzJet

SOPS

28th Nov 2005, 23:10

:) Escape Slide, by looking at the Gold Airway forum, from another link, I would assume these are the people you had secret talks with. I wish them the best, but I have my doubts......?????

gaunty

28th Nov 2005, 23:17

amos2 me old.

You are of course quite correct.:ok:

'twas indeed Capt Norman Bristow, aka Captain Hushpower, I'm not even sure the ads weren't in black & white. :{
Cant think where I got the Stagg from 'cept there area number of families of the B-S name in Perth.
That magnificent aircraft was my favourite steed as a pax and it wasn't any noisier than it then competitors. Last commercial flight in Oz was 1976 methinks BNE/SIN.

Nice bit of media manipulation by Stoddart on the Ansett Tulla site there:rolleyes:

relax737

28th Nov 2005, 23:34

Let's hope Stoddard isn't going to be a Branson/Godfrey clone and whinge about every perceived injustice at the hands of the established operators.

Beats paying for advertising though.

I'd like to see him make a go of it though.

VH-Cheer Up

29th Nov 2005, 09:12

Anyone know whether OzJet got good load factors today?

Did their flights run on time?

VHCU

Barbossa

29th Nov 2005, 10:58

ABC News tonight said today's inaugral flight today had 57 people on board but said that most were on freebies, invited by Stoddart. They also said that the response had not been overwhelming and that most of next week's flights had loads in single digits. Its gonna be a long hot (dry) Christmas methinks. Looks like Stoddart will be delving into his "war chest" earlier than he thought (history has shown that he has never had one).

Makes his article yesterday look disingenuous eh? "loads at break even" - bullsh*t.

Someone should teach Stoddart some basic rules for start-ups; you lead with the low-fare (i.e. $200 o/w), you don't aim high with the high fare (i.e. $300+) and then back down later and send a clear message to everyone that no-one is buying your tickets.

"expected more support from the public"! - Why? You've got crappy old aircraft aimed at the top end of the market when even the bottom of the barrell leisure carriers are carting everyone around in brand spanking new A320's and B737-NGs. You've got a flight every 2 hours, when your competition is running every 30 minutes - surprisingly enough delivering to the markets needs.

This clown has overestimated the average business persons support for the "aussie battler".

Escape_Slide

29th Nov 2005, 12:00

Just going back through some of the threads I think some of you are proving right in your estimations. This is exactly why I was uneasy about working for them. they didn't seem to have any nous.

Does any one know if the last flight from Sydney got clear of the curfew on 11/29/05 ?

rescue 1

29th Nov 2005, 13:36

Sadly business traffic is starting to reduce as we approach Christmas, and will not bounce back till late January early February.

Now I know everyone's an expert, but I would have started in February if it was me...

missy

29th Nov 2005, 14:03

Pretty tough first day, RWY 07 only for two periods during the afternoon and then a thunderstorm into curfew with massive delays all round adn curfew dispensations through to 1:30am. One of their jets was towed from bay 39 to domestic 6 apron around 8:15pm. Didn't see another flight after that.

Wirraway

29th Nov 2005, 16:51

Wed "Melbourne Age"

OzJet means business as new class takes flight
By Ian Porter
November 30, 2005

IT WAS always going to be a bit of a circus with the media along for the ride, so it was no surprise the first scheduled flight of Paul Stoddart's new business class airline, OzJet, was late taking off.

Despite a lack of automatic boarding pass readers at the gate, passengers were on time. It was the runway that was not.

"I don't know what those last 10 minutes were about, something on the runway I think," Mr Stoddart said after the Boeing 737 had left the ground 27 minutes after the scheduled time.

In a tie adorned with flying pigs, Mr Stoddart received a round of applause as Flight 74 left the ground. Much has been made of OzJet's 30-year-old 737s, but the plane used yesterday flew as well as a new one and was more comfortable than most thanks to a new fitout.

Chief executive Hans van Pelt said Mr Stoddart's European Aviation had maintained the planes from new, when owned by Sabena, and when they moved into charter work. "Usually, at this age, planes have done around 70,000 cycles (take-off and landing is one cycle). The planes we are using have only done around 40,000¡_"

He said each had a "de-check" ¡ª 18,000 man-hours and the examination and replacement, if necessary, of virtually every moving component.

There are 60 seats on a plane that usually seats 120 people, giving more width and leg room.

The second flight from Tullamarine to Mascot left on time with about 30 passengers, enough to break even at the full one-way price of $325. OzJet is feeling its way into the business class market. Lesson one is that business flyers tend not to return in the middle of the day, judging by bookings on those flights.

Australian Airlines, Qantas' low-cost offshore carrier, will take over the Cairns-Tokyo route from its parent from mid-2006. It will also offer 28 premium economy seats on planes from July, its first move away from an all economy configuration.

=========================================
Wed "The Australian"

Bumps as new airline takes flight
Blair Speedy
November 30, 2005

OZJET'S maiden flight was 40 minutes late leaving Melbourne, half an hour late getting into Sydney, there was no champagne and the exit sign fell off the emergency door when it landed.

But chairman Paul Stoddart said he always expected a few hiccups on the first day of operations for the all-business-class outfit - the first major airline launched in Australia since Virgin Blue in 2000.

And so there were.

The first was with the check-in system, which refused to issue boarding cards for the queue of passengers assembled for the 6.30am Melbourne-Sydney flight.

When this was sorted out, Mr Stoddart rolled a chequered-flag ribbon across the boarding gate to ceremoniously mark the opening of the first flight.

But as scissors aren't allowed past the security checkpoint, he was unable to cut it, instead lifting it above his head and waving passengers down the walkway.

The cabin crew then proceeded to show passengers to the wrong seats.

To be fair, the seat numbers were placed on the overhead compartment in line with the headrests, making it unclear whether the relevant seat was the one in front or the one behind. It turned out to be the one in front, but not before several people had already been told the opposite.

The plane, a 30-year-old Boeing 737-200, was fitted out with 60 new and comfy leather seats, offering generous legroom.

Having just been through a complete rebuild, the plane seemed to fly well enough, and was no noisier or bumpier than the brand-new aircraft flown by Qantas and Virgin Blue.

But there were telltale signs of the craft's age - small chips in the plastic trim, drill-holes in the overhead console and, of course, the self-detaching exit sign.

The cabin crew struggled with the service level of business class, and, inexplicably, champagne was not offered.

The flight eventually touched down in Sydney at 8.25am - 30 minutes late and just five minutes before the plane was scheduled to head back to Melbourne.

Anticipating some teething problems, Ozjet yesterday brought in a "spare" 737 to service some flights, but by lunchtime the airline was running a full hour behind schedule.

Mr Stoddart, who owns 80per cent of Ozjet, said he was confident of ironing out the kinks.

Ozjet isn't the only airline to have a rough debut. Virgin Blue's inaugural flight in September 2000 arrived half an hour late.

===========================================