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con-pilot
3rd Nov 2005, 16:51
What on earth is going on in Paris?

Dear Mods, if this needs to be in the “hamster wheel” thread please go ahead and move it there, however this is more on the lines of trying to receive information rather than politics.

It has been reported over here that there has now been 7 days of rioting in the Northern suburbs of Paris and that last night shots were fired at police. Are things really that bad, or is this more of typical over reaction by media?

Grandpa, are you still around? Can you shed some light on this subject?

Thanks

flapsforty
3rd Nov 2005, 16:54
Connie was just in my car listening to the news on the radio and wondering why no one had brought it up on JB yet.

Seems pretty serious, let us hope some of our French ppruners will be kind enough to shed some light. :uhoh:

Parapunter
3rd Nov 2005, 16:58
My experience of the banlieue is that they're pretty dreadful places, I understand the recent unpleasantness is based around a couple of fleeing youths getting electrocuted escaping les flics. The wider context I believe is the high unemployment amongst the immigrant French population & the feeling of isolation and disenfranchisement they suffer.

Paris is about 4 square miles of beauty & a whole lot more of dingy, dangerous & not nice suburbs.

ORAC
3rd Nov 2005, 16:58
See here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1855202,00.html) and the links at the bottom of the page.

Parapunter is right, the centre of Paris is ringed with slums full of towerblocks as bad as anythink found in the UK in the 60s & 70s. You can also google for several recent fires where there were heavy immigrant casualties as they were trapped, packed like sardines, in even older buildings without adequate fire precautions. Paris is not the place to be an African immigrant.

G-CPTN
3rd Nov 2005, 17:00
From the Beeb:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4401670.stm

con-pilot
3rd Nov 2005, 17:09
So sad, it reminds me of the race riots in the US back in the 60s. Paris is such a beautiful city. One can only hope the riots can be restrained and not spread to the rest of the city.

G-CPTN
3rd Nov 2005, 17:15
From French daughter-in-law (parents living in Paris, father works for Chirac !):-

I have no idea what's going on. But I do know that:
1. that's a really horrible suburb of paris
2. morale is very low in france generally about unemployment and
everything else.
So I supposed I'm not that surprised.
I haven't spoken to my family recently so I haven't heard their account
of it.

Squawk7777
3rd Nov 2005, 17:30
As previously mentioned, this is a result of a mixture of unemployment, social unrest due to isolation of immigrants, drugs, gangs, general hopelessness and out-of-touch politicians.

My impression is that this might happen in other Euro cities as well. Berlin shocked me, the gap between immigrants and "society" is scary :uhoh:

CWL2YOW
3rd Nov 2005, 17:39
From CBC.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/11/03/paris-riot051103.html)

Youth gangs set fire to dozens of vehicles, fired on police and pelted a commuter train with rocks in the seventh straight night of violence in poor Paris suburbs.

Police poured into 10 Parisian suburbs but were unable to stop youths from setting more than 300 vehicles and two buses on fire. Nine people were injured overnight.

Traffic on a train line linking Paris to Charles de Gaulle airport was halted early Thursday after young gangs attacked two trains at Le Blanc-Mesnil station. They smashed windows and forced one conductor from a train, said rail officials.

In Aulnay-sous-Bois, rioters briefly laid siege to a police detachment, while rioters also damaged a school, a shopping centre and a Renault car dealership.

French radio reported that shots were fired at police in La Courneuve.

The suburbs are home to mostly poor immigrants from North Africa who are frustrated at high unemployment, poverty and a feeling that they are not embraced by French society.

Rioting started one week ago when two teenagers from the suburbs were electrocuted while running from police. Police deny the claim.

The riots have created a crisis for the government, with French President Jacques Chirac pleading for calm. French leaders are promising law and order, but are split over how to deal with poverty and crime in the affected areas.

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who cancelled a visit to Canada to deal with the violence, has called a number of meetings with government officials throughout the day.

He told the Senate his government won't "give in" to violence.

"The return to calm and the restoration of public order are the priority – our absolute priority," said de Villepin.

He'll also meet with his political rival Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who has called the youth gangs "scum."

BenThere
3rd Nov 2005, 17:40
Ben There
- from the thread starter:
Dear Mods, if this needs to be in the “hamster wheel” thread please go ahead and move it there, however this is more on the lines of trying to receive information rather than politics.
At least I shall respect these wishes, and - even if you don't want to - so will you
Attempts by anyone to turn this into a back-biting session and it will be merged with the Hamster Wheel.

airship
3rd Nov 2005, 18:38
So sad, it reminds me of the race riots in the US back in the 60s. Paris is such a beautiful city. One can only hope the riots can be restrained and not spread to the rest of the city. I don't believe that the current riots are "race-riots" in the stricter sense of the term. That is to say, there have (not yet anyway) been any episodes of one race battling another race in the streets. Also, the burning of vehicles and property has been quite indiscriminate. It would be more accurate to call the current rioting the response of mainly youths of N. African origin to what they perceive as their "second-class citizen status" sparked off by heavy-handed policing. And aimed at all those representing the Republic but especially the police.

So it's not quite Rosa Parks time yet over here, though that may come later con-pilot. :uhoh:

tony draper
3rd Nov 2005, 18:46
Tear gas is no good, what you need is 400 mounted Dragoons with drawn sabres.
To quote Don Vito Corleone
"Then they will fear you"
:E

G-CPTN
3rd Nov 2005, 18:55
It's the cold steel.
They don't like it uppem.

tilewood
3rd Nov 2005, 19:21
Orac writes:- " Paris is not the place to be an African immigrant.;"

I couldn't agree more.

African Tech Rep
3rd Nov 2005, 19:24
What is the correct term for these riots – “race” isn’t right – maybe “social” ? maybe “immigrants”? :confused:

Lets hope one of the French politicians doesn’t mention “cake”.
On the other hand lets hope they do.:E

Paterbrat
3rd Nov 2005, 19:33
Yes it is sad. The poorer areas do tend to become areas of sadness discontent and misery. Flash points that will ignite wherever country and wherever they may be. With less to lose they will unfortunately be far more ready to creat havoc mayhem and destruction. They burn and destroy because they themselves have little or nothing and feel disenfrachised and dispised.

The student riots in Paris the 60's were no less violent and that wasn't the N Africans then. Having said that I regretfully and respectfully would beg to differ with airship. They are race riots. It may be politicaly correct to try and duck the issue however that is what these are. Just as no matter how much the BBC ducked dived and contorted when they were reporting, the rioting in Birmingham recently between the Asian and Afro Carribean communities. That was a race riot plain and simple though for once thankfully the Caucasian/ Anglo's appeared to be onlookers.

con-pilot
3rd Nov 2005, 19:42
Airship I was referring more to the blindness burning and mayhem rather than to an actual race issue. Even during the race riots that so tore apart the United States during the 60s it was really not a race war as in white against black. It was the Afro-American citizens of the Unites States that perceived they were being treated as second class members of their country. Whither this perception was correct or not is being debated to this day.

I can only assume (and yes I know how one spells ass-u-me:)) that the riots are not in fact race based, rather a case of immigrates perceiving that they are being denied the full rights of citizenship. This is the reason that I started the thread, my lack of information on the cause of these riots.

This brings up additional questions. Are these African immigrates asking for French Citizenship and are being denied? Or are they already French Citizens as they came from a former French possession? Or are they just living in France waiting to go back to their home country?

Thanks

Paterbrat
3rd Nov 2005, 19:47
I would imagine Con that many as in many European countries quite a lot are economic immigrants and or illegal, which makes it more difficult for them to get into the system and therefore potentialy very frustrated. I suppose 'race' has become so sensitive one could say 'ethnicaly different' which to me smacks of PC.

con-pilot
3rd Nov 2005, 19:54
At the risk of being very un-PC could one infer that the areas that these people are living in Paris are more akin to ghettos rather than suburbs?

Rollingthunder
3rd Nov 2005, 19:55
I don't think multi-culturalism works very well, particularly when immigrants - legal or illegal are ill-educated and ill-prepared to fit into the society or working life of any given country. To immigate somewhere and then depend on the state for substenance without striving to make one's own way is a recipe for disaster. (Speaking as an immigrant who never depended upon the state for anything).

Are they running out of cars in Paris?

Davaar
3rd Nov 2005, 20:04
Is anyone really surprised? Come off it.

Paterbrat
3rd Nov 2005, 20:05
Think you may have hit the ten there Con.

And yes Rolling thunder as un PC as that was I am 100% with your assessment on that. As for cars the last time I drove there I estimate they could do with a lot more cars being culled before it is a safe place to drive, though that applies to many cities nowadays. Parisien drivers did actually remind me of Jeddah drivers, they had a lot in common.

airship
3rd Nov 2005, 20:21
They are race riots. I would beg to differ Paterbrat. You can't just lump what went on recently in Birmingham together with the ongoing situation in the Paris suburbs and simply call them both race-riots. The N. Africans here aren't attacking their neighbours, though they have been burning (everyone's) cars and making life generally miserable. But I think that after due regard, you will see that there is a huge difference between the current Paris rioting and real race-riots. And there is little to do with political correctness or ducking the issues in the reporting thereof.

There are some very serious issues behind the current rioting which need to be addressed though. In my opinion, N. Africans in France are discriminated against, all the mass "touche pas à mon pôte" demonstrations of the past notwithstanding. There is a quite sinister form of racism in France, one which rarely shows its head. But it's there, just under the surface, everytime a N. African applies for a job or tries to rent an apartment. I don't believe that the average Frenchman has yet opened their hearts to their newer compatriots. Ordinary people go about their business, yet it's acknowledged that there are far greater "summary" police checks made on those who look of N. African origin than others - perhaps a valid source of irritation in light of recent events don't you think?

Added to all this are the ever-growing disparities in incomes and future prospects - issues which more and more affect ordinary French "de souche" ("of the soil"). No, the N. Africans are not (yet) attacking their fellow citizens. And long before that happens, it'll be ordinary Frenchmen of a blander hue who will be rioting against social injustices... :uhoh:

flapsforty
3rd Nov 2005, 20:26
Airship it's good to have someone 'local' to share with us both facts and opinions.

con-pilot
3rd Nov 2005, 20:29
I don’t know Rolling, multi-culturalism (is that really a proper word?) seems to work here. When one looks at the Asian communities and the vast majority of the Hispanic communities and how they have intermingled with society after a few generations. In my neighborhood (that I humbly consider upper-middle class) there people from all cultures, Afro, Asian, Hispanic and others I don’t even know or care about, we are all neighbors.

However, as you pointed out when it comes to ‘illegal immigrates living off the state’ it is an entirely different matter. To be sure we do have a very small minority of these types of people here, however they usually do their best to keep out of sight and not bring any attention to themselves. Let alone riot.

If they are getting low on cars in Paris we have lot just sitting around on the Gulf Coast that nobody wants.

Edited to say; Thanks Airship for that insight.

reynoldsno1
3rd Nov 2005, 20:36
The suburbs are home to mostly poor immigrants from North Africa who are frustrated at high unemployment, poverty and a feeling that they are not embraced by French society.
....whilst this may be true, they also have to embrace French society...

airship
3rd Nov 2005, 20:48
People in the SE of England are closer to the troubles than I am falps! :(

c-p, I don't believe you mean't it the way it came out: It was the Afro-American citizens of the Unites States that perceived they were being treated as second class members of their country. Whither this perception was correct or not is being debated to this day. I would have thought that having to ride at the back of the bus was a very apt way of demonstrating different classes of citizenship...even if the back of a bus was safer in a head-on collision?! But as I already said, your average Frenchman would never dream of being so blatant in the manner he organised things... :O

And you can't always just simply jump on the "immigrants are a load of work-shy, benefit-scrounging layabouts, who you wouldn't want living next door because of the smells coming out of their kitchen" type bandwagon. That idea's becoming so dated. Someone will have to come up with something else quick. And then ...they also have to embrace French society... But how close do you have to get? "If I kiss your a$$, will you kiss mine?" There might be the odd Englishman here on the Côte d'Azur who goes round shouting "Vive de Gaulle! Vive la France!" on the 14th July, but they'd be in a very small minority I reckon... :rolleyes: ;)

Capt.KAOS
3rd Nov 2005, 21:27
Seems many Paris suburbs are only inhabited by (N-)African immigrants. When I travel from Paris Nord with the RER, 80-90% of the people in the train are non-Caucasian. Unemployment seems to be the biggest problem.

Grandpa
3rd Nov 2005, 21:34
What could I add?

Race riots?............Not quite, but the discrimination factor is present, not allways, not everywhere, but present for sure, and when you add the ressentment of the youth after searching for a job, for housing or after police checks, you realise our society built an explosive cocktail.

I learned recently a well known pharmacy firm refuses any employee, at any level, who hasn't got the right profile (white European).

You have also to keep in mind our passed and present authorities didn't allways adress the problem.............but prefered to use it as a tool to win elections on the fear factor.
This has been seen a few days ago when Nicolas Sarkozy - Ministre de L'Intérieur - used the word "racaille" and managed to reject a number of young immigrants and make them sympathise with young gangster defying police, burning cars and shops.

This being said, I refuse to consider "immigrants" as a whole concerned by these riots: the vast majority is living peacefully and trying to raise their children so they can find a job.
( a personnal clue: I know a Morrocan bricklayer who lives here since years, working hard, and friend with many French people.
His daughter is Math teacher since this year. Her first employment is in Paris suburbs city where many cars have burnt, and she fears to go there after present holidays).

Poverty, unemployment and lack of education are three plagues mostly thrown to young immigrants
The present economy rules based on "free market", destruction of social protection and public services is the real cause of these events and of unrest in emigration countries.
Hope we can turn in the good direction (which isn't the right's one)

airship
3rd Nov 2005, 21:45
Grandpa says it best. With that quintessentially French touch... :ok:

There must be someone reading these forums who could help Mr. Sarkozy obtain a green card?! I believe he has a reasonable command of the English language. Also, he comes from Polish stock. Uhmmm, his wife also has a nice ass. All that should count for something... :D

Grandpa
3rd Nov 2005, 22:06
Sarko (or "Iznogood" as we name him....) is from Hungarian stock.

airship
3rd Nov 2005, 22:07
You have to admit, I was quite close. It's like comparing N. Dakota with S. Dakota... :O

con-pilot
3rd Nov 2005, 22:28
Thanks Grandpa, as stated earlier I didn’t think it was a ‘race war type riot’ as such.

Thanks Airship, I could have phrased that better.

Grandpa
3rd Nov 2005, 22:39
I flew a number of hours in this one, north and south....and even east and west of France in the good ole times of "Postale de Nuit"!

Hungarian language isn't slave as Polish one.

Paprika isn't growing near Warsaw, and what about wines?

Guess why Sarko's father chose France?

Farrell
4th Nov 2005, 00:36
There is huge animosity amongst a lot of French people when it comes to "les racailles" - you will usually just get the classic shrug if you ask about it, but if you dig deep you'll find a lot of hatred and anger.

I have only been living in France for a few years so I still don't have a full appreciation of the history surrounding them.
But I will however, give you the slant on what I have experienced since I have been here.

French teenagers of French origin go out, have a few beers and go home. I have walked down the street at night amongst these groups and you get the jovial banter that comes from say a rugby international, especially when they hear my Irish accent.
It's a good laugh and I feel at ease.

If that group of teenagers is made up of North Africans (and I am not speaking for all but the fact is that in my experience it is the majority) - they will be drunk, they will openly smoke cannabis on the street and they will be armed with the usual "Opinel" pocket knife or a matraque (a steel baton). They are abusive to all and sundry. They will line a path from facade to curb and then bump you as you go past and this will normally result in threats and possible aggression.

Having been well trained by the French military - I have no real problem with handling aggressive behaviour, but there are others who are not so fortunate - and who usually end up in Lyon's Eduard Herriot hospital.

Do some research or talk to a police officer here - be they Municipale, Nationale or CRS.....and they will give you the majority crime figures - or even stand outside the courthouse in Lyon, and have a look at the ethnic background of those being prosecuted.

For a group that are so poverty ridden by the way, they all seem to have shiny new cars! These of course are driving at high speed around town with North African rap music pumping out of the open windows - the lyrics leave a lot to be desired, and the police ask them to switch it off as it filled with racist content.

Some French people say that it's down to how they have been brought up.....Me, I just don't understand it at all.

brain fade
4th Nov 2005, 00:50
It's simple.........but true.

People like people who are like themselves.

Unpalatable? Yes.

Inconvenient? Yes.

Racist? Yes

TRUE! Yes

Sad? Yes

A solution? No.

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2005, 01:15
Farrell (and others)
This is not specifically a French or North African problem, but a situation that arises when the national economy sinks.
When we first moved to Denmark there was full employment, and the Danes were pleased to welcome refugees (from Vietnam) to add to the Turkish workforce (referred to as 'guestworkers') to mop-up the menial and labouring jobs that were difficult to fill with native Danes, however as the economy began to fall, the unrest began as resentment at 'foreigners taking our jobs' met-up with natural selection of employment (or unemployment) with the brunt being taken by the 'guestworkers'.
After all, if you were hiring, who would you rather employ, a native who speaks the language, or an immigrant with 'language difficulties'? It's not racism, it's human nature, so the non-natives are the ones who suffer first (and most). Without gainful employment, the devil makes work for idle hands, and the situation escalates.
It happened in the UK with 'Pakkies' becoming a common expression for any non-white immigrant resented for their presence when unemployment was high. It was a different matter just after the War when Jamaicans 'ran' London Transport . . . .
The thing is that it's enough for folk to be 'different' in whatever way for the situation to fester as soon as times get difficult. In buoyant times no-one gives a stuff what colour you are or where you come from.

RJM
4th Nov 2005, 01:16
I can only agree. People are fundamentally tribal - possibly even hardwired that way.

IMHO, the only solution is to find a way to turn that tribal tendency inside out, if you like, and use it to embrace difference rather than reject it.

Whether it's possible to do that, or how it would be done, I have no idea.

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2005, 01:24
Ask a Geordie what they think about a Mackam . . . (and vice-versa)
There IS a colour difference - Black-and-White or Red-and-White.
That's tribal . . .

Elsewhere there's a thread about keeping Mexicans out of the USA. Surely they're all AMERICANS?

Farrell
4th Nov 2005, 01:28
It's just all so confusing.
Would lead some people to think that this whole "race" thing has been engineered by the Illuminati as a way of using differences between people to start wars and then financially gain from it.

brain fade
4th Nov 2005, 01:37
Step one.

Recognise the problem.

When we've accomplished step one above, then we can move on.
For clarity I think step one evades us.

reynoldsno1
4th Nov 2005, 02:16
People like people who are like themselves
mrs r1 isn't much like me - different race, different culture, different language - and we are both immigrants to the country we are glad to call home.... :hmm:

mooguy
4th Nov 2005, 02:19
Exactly, its so obvious that people do overlook that simple human fundamental...for whatever reason, be it genetic or otherwise, we dont like people who are different to us.

And most countries dont like their neighbours too, thats a given, its human nature. ONce we all accept this as truth, then we can clarify and move on as to what to do best about the negative situations that then arise.

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2005, 02:21
From the Mexican thread:-
What we need is a great big melting pot - big enough to take the world and all it's got. Keep it stirring for a hundred years or more, turning out coffee-coloured people by the score . . .

West Coast
4th Nov 2005, 06:38
"Keep it stirring for a hundred years or more, turning out coffee-coloured people by the score"

So much for celebrating differences.

A-FLOOR
4th Nov 2005, 08:18
West coast: He has a point though. In a globalized world there is no place for this tribal thing. It has got to go. Celebrate differences all you want, but when it amounts to "in" and "out" groups and people suffering as a result the drawbacks outweigh the advantages as far as I'm concerned.

First step to accomplish this great feat is of course to marry interracially and breed :ok:

Davaar
4th Nov 2005, 10:07
............... and then live in tranquillity like all the other coffee-coloured people in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Fiji, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Syria, the Lebanon, Colombia, the Philippines, India, Pakistan, Africa of course, the range from cafe au lait to cafe noir.

Telstar
4th Nov 2005, 10:40
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40981000/jpg/_40981834_blaze_afp203body.jpg

French riots spread beyond Paris

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm

ORAC
4th Nov 2005, 10:41
If everyone was the same colour, we´d do it based on religion, or height, or nose size. Face it, its an evolutionary thing, you can´t get rid of it.

Though it might be fun trying....... ;)

Paterbrat
4th Nov 2005, 10:41
Be it a club, a neighborhood, a unit, a branch of the service, a state, a country, an ethnic group, there is an instinctive herd instinct, almost certainly a protective hard wired instinct, that is after millions of years is very hard to remove in a few generations.

When that grouping is largely ethnic, for whatever reason the word race is not incorrect airship, however distressing this may be to many. That a particular group has been to an extent been disenfranchised for whatever reason, and has now banded together and is expressing that resentment and anger in the present rage and fury is unfortunately what is happening now. There will be many links and poverty, amongst others, will certainly be one of them. Those who have escaped those links will not be amongst those who are presently protesting and they will have assimilated. It tends to be the remainder who either do not wish to assimilate and feel more comfortable amongst those of their own kind or those unfortunate enough not to be able to escape

What we percieve to be ideal fair and desirable is not always what happens. Nature instinct and the reptillian brain lying beneath the reasoning brain become evident at times and it comes as a very unpleasant and unpalatable shock to those who do not see it for much of the time.

bear11
4th Nov 2005, 10:48
Subtle note to the French government: MIGHT the problems you have be even vaguely connected to annexing a large chunk of Africa a long time ago, ie; you reap what you sow? I'd never claim to be an expert on France, but looking at old maps of Blue Africa doesn't require one to have a PhD on the subject.

In fact, continuing on the theme of that which you create potentially consuming you in the long-term, surely the old cold and steel union which mutated into the EC and then the EU has now turned around into something that is biting the French bum with a vengeance? The end of Grandpa's post may offer some support for this.

- and not at all to appear anti-French: I think it's a fabulously unique country, and respect their intent on not being swallowed into the characterless, globalised MTV generation that the rest of the world seems to be intent on embracing.

ORAC
4th Nov 2005, 11:01
Hard Life in the Suburbs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm)

tony draper
4th Nov 2005, 11:39
When we existed as small and extended hunter gatherer family groups everything was just peachy,we were all ot the same bloodline,once we expanded to small tribes then larger tribes split up and bifircated the trouble started, tribalism,territoriality,then once agriculture kicked off and we commenced to produce surpluces of foods,that all she wrote,
Why sweat yer bollix off tilling the soil when you and a few of the other chaps in the tribe can form a army overwheld those feckers across the river steal thier harvest.

One typed out all that just so one could get the word Bifircate into a post,one has a liking that word.
:rolleyes:

ORAC
4th Nov 2005, 12:57
Does one mean bifurcate Mr D, one believes you are speaking with a forked tongue...... ;)

con-pilot
4th Nov 2005, 17:29
After the eighth night of rioting it seems like the riot area is spreading. From the reports we are receiving over here it look as soon as the police move into one area the rioters move into a new area. So I have some more questions.

Is the number of rioters getting larger? (As in more people are starting to riot.)

Is the area of rioting getting larger or just moving to different locations as the police end rioting in the current riot areas?

Will the government be forced to send in the French Army to end this mess?

If the Army is used will there be any serious political fallout for the current Government?

Just a personal observation, but it seems to me that before the cause/causes of the riots can be addressed the rioting must be stopped. What do you guys think?

Grandpa
4th Nov 2005, 19:04
.................but, as the main cause which triggered the riot was irrelevant words in our Ministre de L'Intérieur's mouth, guess what is the solution?
(you should know that we have a law here, compelling municipalities to build low price housing.................and Sarko, as mayor of Neuilly sur Seine allways refused to do so and paid the fines for it : POORS HAVE TO LIVE ANYWHERE BUT NOT IN HIS TOWN!)

tony draper
4th Nov 2005, 19:14
Its the one thing Orwell got wrong, the Prols will not be kept quiet with just drugs and pornography.

El Grifo
4th Nov 2005, 19:28
It has to be said that this is very likely the shape of things to come. In fact, in my humble opinion, it is well overdue.

Best get used to it folks.

con-pilot
4th Nov 2005, 19:30
I understand Grandpa, we have that same problem here on many subjects from poor people housing to oil refineries.

It is called NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

West Coast
4th Nov 2005, 21:17
Gramps
If this was going on in the US (and it has) how much coverage would you be giving to it here? You and your ilk have got off pretty easy from the usuals here.

Davaar
4th Nov 2005, 22:01
Well, West, I too was awaiting the link to President Bush as prime cause, but I see Grandpa attributes the developments to the Minister of the Interior, a man of such power that his unguarded word can set the Republic ablaze.

Words, words, words. What the French have is the predictable and predicted result of the forced juxtaposition of great numbers of antipathetic people in limited space. The multiculturalists knew better, for Truth had been Revealed to them, and it was Good.

Now they, and unfortunately others who were more sceptical, are beginning to reap their annual harvest as it will continue in perpetuity. Grandpa should accustom himself to honour killings, husbands beating wives with the approval of their society (which is now Grandpa's), rigid adherence to violent religion, infant female circumcision without anaesthetic on the kitchen table (as practised round the corner from where I write, so my doctor tells me; he is called in to fix up the amateur work), and, -- who knows? --, a return to suttee and thuggee.

I remember as a boy going out for a day's playing and rambling. If the day was warm, I might take off my pullover and leave it at the roadside, in the sure knowledge that it would be there when I came for it in the evening. Not now.

African Tech Rep
4th Nov 2005, 22:06
A misreading of West Coasts post started me thinking – how much are people outside Europe or even outside France seeing / hearing about this ?

Until Mr Farrell mentioned this on another thread and kindly posted a link – I didn’t know about it – VERY little on TV here about it.
That is Local TV – if I had satellite I could watch BBC – but that would only show how much airtime it’s getting in the UK – not SA or USA or UAE etc etc.

A-FLOOR
4th Nov 2005, 22:09
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5393406,00.html

[...]

Attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns.

[...]:(

Capt.KAOS
4th Nov 2005, 22:22
It is turned into which gang burns most cars, police cars getting bonus points. Meantime Islam extremists trying to hijack the riots for their own case. Throwing teargas grenades into a mosque during ramadan prayers doesn't help either...

Farrell
4th Nov 2005, 22:47
Throwing teargas grenades into a mosque during ramadan prayers doesn't help either...

Very true - and that's why it didn't happen.
Just the usual propoganda trick. The canisters were lifted off the streets and placed in the mosques by those who wish to use the riots for their own agenda.

Capt.KAOS
4th Nov 2005, 23:50
"Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy confirmed that the grenade was of the type used by riot squads, but said "that does not mean that it was fired by a police officer.""

I guess in this turmoil nobody can say exactly what happened.

tony draper
5th Nov 2005, 00:16
Do not the French possess Tanks?,or indeed whats wrong with the foreign Legion chaps,one has heard one does not **** about with those blokes, turn em loose Mr Chirac.

chiglet
5th Nov 2005, 01:14
con
Ithink that the acronym [sp] is NIMBYY...Not In My Back Yard YET
watp,iktch

West Coast
5th Nov 2005, 04:57
"how much are people outside Europe or even outside France seeing / hearing about this?"

On the NBC network news it was the second item after Bush's warm welcome down south. Extensively covered by the print media as well.

Kaos
This could be an ominious sign for the Netherlands. Fires tend to spread.

Mac the Knife
5th Nov 2005, 05:55
It's hard to employ someone who is difficult to understand.

We have a lot of francophone refugees from French Africa in SA, and the majority are charming and generally educated people.

However, most of them speak French with a heavy accent which is very difficult to understand even for a native French speaker like myself (completely fluent classical French). Incomprehensible on the phone.

I'd guess there is the same problem as Afro-Americans with the "homie" dialect and Ebonics as well as Afro-Caribbeans with "patwa" and Rasta (I-I-I) speech (though these last are more self-inflicted as a means of cementing group identity).

Unwell_Raptor
5th Nov 2005, 10:27
There was a serious riot in Perpignan when I was there in May. 50 cars torched, 100 shop windows put in, one shot dead, and a city full of CRS. That was the result of ongoing hatreds between the Gypsies and the North Africans, fuelled by a belief by each group that the other is getting preferential treatment from the authorities. I was back in France two weeks ago, and as on my earlier visit, the one thing that the French wanted to talk about was problems with immigrants. "La France est devenue la poubelle d'Afrique" was a pretty typical remark.

Stafford
5th Nov 2005, 11:29
We shouldn't be too complacent in UK.

Birmingham is a disaster waiting to happen and the inner cities of the UK are all suffering the same problems as France, on differing scales and timelines but it's there nonetheless. Riots, grave desecration, honour killings..................

Welcome to the "multicultural" diversity that uncontrolled immigration of hundreds of thousands of illegals / "asylum seekers" has bred, particularly under Noo Labour's incompetence and abject failure to secure our borders. We need to know who is here in the country to secure it.

By inheriting the third world's problems at home, we have invited groups like Al Qaeda to exploit the grievances of first, second and even third generation non achieving immigrants who have failed to find the promised Utopia here as in the dumps surrounding Paris.

brain fade
5th Nov 2005, 13:33
I'm no fan of 'multiculturalism'.
What really ticks one off tho' is that to make any sort of criticism of our 'celebrated ethnic mix' is to be branded as some sort of National Front extremist.

The problems need to be identified before they can be addressed and this just is not going to happen until we abandon PC-speak.

We need a basic, no holds barred, thorough assessment of everyones position as it is, not as we wish it. And we really need to control and limit immigration to the UK.

Once this sort of 'race' violence gets going, it spreads and is plainly hard to stop.

Paterbrat
5th Nov 2005, 16:55
I read the previous two posts and indentify with both...to an extent.

Having been branded as a closet racist, colonialist, and general ' Alf' as in Garnet I would venture that the rioting in France was initialy racist, despite what airship says. Born of desperation, isolation and discrimination, it has now spread and is being exploited by the generaly disaffected, criminal element, those whose aim is anarchy in any form together with the yobbishly inclined youth who are all for what will offer them in adrenaline and kicks.

Birmingham; just wait and see. The recent desecration of the Muslim graves by the Black Power movement, will in the words of a young Asian 'Be remembered'. It does not bode well.

Multiculterism is in itself a laudable and worthy goal, when however it is accompanied by stupid and needles political correctness accompanied by a spine bending pandering to sensibilities on the one hand; suspicion discrimination and hostility on the other, it becomes a sop to the foolish and an irritant to the sensible. It becomes an encouragement to provocative behavious in those who would better served by care and thoughful behaviour, and a red rag to those who should know better.

Dangerous for all concerned it is a growing phenomenon in cities round the world and a powder keg that has, and will claim more lives in the coming years. :{

bjcc
5th Nov 2005, 19:44
Much doom & gloom and dispondency...

And, more to the point, me agreeing with Brain Fade...(Pauses while I take a few deep breaths!!!)

Can't speak for the French problem, only seen whats been reported, and it was hardly in depth.

In Brum, IMHO, the problem was caused by treating 'Ethnic Groups' differently in the name of equaility. Now, the greed has set in, one ethnic group wants more than another, who they never really liked anyway.

To some extent Birmingham has happened for a very long time, but on a much smaller scale in London, and probably in lots of other multi ethnic areas. It doesn't get reported, I would assume because it would be seen as racist to do so. Then along comes a big one like Brum, which you can't ignore, and shock horror!!!!

The answer in the UK? Probably too late, but withdraw the ability to play the race card and watch everyone fall over themselves to give. In other words treat EVERYONE equally

con-pilot
5th Nov 2005, 22:11
Things are not looking any better tonight sadly. We are now hearing reports of rioting all around France.

What are the chances of this rioting spreading all over Europe?

The French government needs to do something and do it fast.

tony draper
5th Nov 2005, 22:20
Chiracs chaps are out of practice, he may have to ask GW and out Tone for help, after all, our lads have been keeping their hand in at arse kicking these last few years.
:rolleyes:
Seriously I think the next few decades are going to be troublesome ,the have nots are going to try and take rather than to be given, gird up your loins people, beat your laptops into swords, or we shall finish up in a world with no third world and no developed world, just a miserable grey universal 2nd world,
:cool:

Farrell
5th Nov 2005, 23:08
whats wrong with the foreign Legion chaps

Very rarely used for "home affairs" -
Last time was to assist in setting a security perimeter around the airports in Paris.

The difficult part about using the Legion in circumstances like this is that there are some North Africans in there. The Legion itself has a very long history in Algeria - where headquarters used to be.
Nevertheless, if the call comes, it will be happen. In fact, the situation does seem to be calling for a heavier hand.

http://i18.hotobucket.com/albums/b140/quartermilefinal/le.jpg
A younger 'Farrell' in costume ;)

Grandpa
5th Nov 2005, 23:22
Those who are not able to be clever enough request a heavier hand to correct their passed mistakes............

But, when "heavy hand" is thrown without precision, it can only make the problem wider.

Did I read about "nuke"?

Not yet...................

G-CPTN
5th Nov 2005, 23:38
Rivers of blood is a coming. People, get on board!

pigboat
6th Nov 2005, 01:09
People Get Ready/The Walker Brothers

mutt
6th Nov 2005, 05:14
Is this the solution?

Some are even calling for the areas where moslems form the majority of the population to be re-organized on the basis of the "millet" system that was in force during the Ottoman Empire. Under this system each religioius community is regarded as a community and enjoys the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs

Interesting to see that they havent mentioned job creation or economic improvements!

Mutt.

ORAC
6th Nov 2005, 06:31
La Haine (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article325153.ece) And on a slightly lighter side - a very suburban affair... (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1859241,00.html)

Davaar
6th Nov 2005, 06:31
Interesting system:
_________________________
Under this system each religious community is regarded as a community and enjoys the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs

_________________________

What under this system is the tax base, and who pays the taxes?The system goes by any of three, or possibly more, names:

1. Stay-at-home: Enjoy all those good things where you came from and save the fare;
2. Apartheid; unpopular with the better sort of late years, but here it is proposed by .................? The better sort?
3. Reserves or reservations: Not without their very own problems where, as here, they have reserves or reservations. The latest is to call for recognition of "nations" of a handful of people. And then there was Oka a few years back, and now Kaneschewan (I may be loose on the spelling). But these were all problems we already had and were trying to resolve without importing all the others.

Where are the multiculturalists, so vocal, so recently, to insist again as they did a few months ago that the One True Way is the reverse of what is proposed above?

African Tech Rep
6th Nov 2005, 14:33
This “millet” system – does it involve building specific schools or moving pupils of minority religions (in that area) to a different area ?
What’s the criteria for “religious community” – there are different sects in each religion – do we put them all one heading or set up special areas for each sect.
(size of are based on ?)
Are we now supporting “honour killings” and public stoning – after those who do these claim they are part of the “culture” and “in accordance with their religious beliefs” – don’t they?
Who decides who is a member of which group ? Suppose you could have “community council” whose permission is needed before you can move into an area.

tony draper
6th Nov 2005, 14:39
Buggah that,the Scots and the Welsh would be demanding their own homeland.
Of the Irish we shall say naught.
:rolleyes:
How about a Geordiestan.:E

African Tech Rep
6th Nov 2005, 15:09
Too right Boyo

Thought you Geordies already had independence – and your language isn’t banned – sometimes as understandable as Kurdish but at least your allowed to speak it.

LuckyStrike
6th Nov 2005, 16:05
I agree with the idea that in order to solve this problem one needs to put an end to rioting. If it is not done decisively and promptly, there are going to be growing number of problems with each hour. Different groups are going to use this to their advantage to create elements of propoganda, fueling new torches for a new riot...

Every hour that the French government is not stopping this thing is backfiring on them as decreasing credibility in the eyes of people of that region. It is not the most favorable thing to do to use force against force but at least gives one the opportunity to show who is in charge and reassure those minds who started suspecting it... I think, without any "heavy blow" to this riot, it can gain all the momentum to go beyond even what was planned by the rioting people.

Now, having said this, I find it truly hard to believe that these people can demand something from the society or government or whatever place you might call it... It was their choice to immigrate with the hopes of better lives than they had before. Basically it was a dream and not a single one of them who are rioting paid attention to the flaws associated with it. I hardly believe anyone was dragged out of their countries to the place they are currently living in with promises from the authorities they are rioting against.

Second issue is this, a small group of people are joining a larger group of people with previously established social behaviors. I do not think anyone from the larger group will have a word of smaller group's practices until they force their kind of living. But smaller groups always tend to gang on to the larger group for the fear that they will be discriminated. And the problem escalades from there on. If one is not willing to embrace the basic morals why should the society embrace him/her??

I always think that either small or large, if you make a comment about differences then you are acting racist. What difference does it have talking for a majority or minority? At the end you are factioning crowds...

effortless
6th Nov 2005, 16:26
I was kicked by a Policeman and had a machine gun shoved in my face in Paris back in '68. I only asked him directions. Not the most tactful police in the world. :confused:

PS I still have the scar on my face.

G-CPTN
6th Nov 2005, 16:33
>I was kicked by a Policeman and had a machine gun shoved in my face in Paris back in '68. I only asked him directions. Not the most tactful police in the world.
>PS I still have the scar on my face.

You were obviously a feelthy foreigner.
Had you been playing games with their lettuce?

I agree that the French have allowed this to get out of hand. I thought they had water-cannon? Surely deploying these could have tackled the disorder AND the fires?
I doubt that they have sufficient resources available to stop it now (900 cars torched in one night). Though apparently a 'typical' New Year will see 300 cars set on fire
(throughout France). The 'Minister' seemed unphased by 'burning cars' when interviewed on BBC Radio. His attitude seemed to be 'burning cars is nothing unusual . . . '
?

Paterbrat
6th Nov 2005, 21:14
Unfortunately the trouble is both continuing and spreading. It is a serious situation and I would imaging many Western countries who have had generous immigration quotas, and or, totaly uncontrolled open gate policy like the UK under the present Government, will be watching closely.

The uncontrolled influx of illegals who then find it difficult to enter the work place will create situations like this. Luckily in UK there seems to be no problem for them to both stay and to claim benefits. The rioting anticipated here is therefore from the middle class whose back is breaking under the rising taxes to provide the seemingly limitless rise in both benefits and immigrants.

Davaar
6th Nov 2005, 21:21
Yes:
___________
the seemingly limitless rise in both benefits ....
___________

with which politicians buy the votes of
___________
immigrants.
___________

Grandpa
6th Nov 2005, 22:22
For the moment, riots seem to be a teen occupation, in which a minority of delinquants managed to take young angry protesters.

Immigrants above twenty five consider this "game" as stupid : burning schools, buses, shops....is only a way to increase poverty and stress in the area.

We are paying now for recent and old politics and economic choices, and the very Ministers who paved the way to destroy social link are in charge to solve the problem and take us out of this mess:

One example: the not so brilliant Socialist government who was in charge before Chirac won the presidency had at least one merit, they organised police on local scale and funneled money to allow them to lead positive action aimed at unoccupied youth to prevent them sliding to delinquancy.

It had just worked a few years when Sarko was appointed by Chirac and cancelled everything, even insulting the police officers assuming this kind of duty "You are not paid to manage kindergarten" resumed Sarko's spirit.....

Another: Socialist government hired hundred of thousands youth
as "Emploi-Jeune" , a contract which prevented the low qualificatied young workforce to live on allocation staying at home unoccupied: they were usefull giving a hand in schools, shops, administrations, earned some money in an honest way, got integrated in the work circuit, and had a chance to have a better life.
Then Raffarin, Sarko § C° came and sacked them....... Wonder what they are doing now?

In the present Government and majority, there are people with a clear conscience of the problems.............but for the moment they are not free to launch a project which could seduce the young and the poor: it's so much easier to organise the flow of money to come allways in the rich's pocket ( please note Chirac and Bush agree on that§)

Davaar
7th Nov 2005, 00:11
To put it succinctly, Grandpa, Charles Martel saved France in 732. Your lot gave it away, and to the same enemy, from 1960 to 2005, and now it is irretrievable. Felicitations!

Le Pen
7th Nov 2005, 06:24
I guess my car insurance will go up after this.... :(

Grandpa
7th Nov 2005, 07:22
.....your post is showing your intelligence of the problem and generally speaking of social and politics.

Thank you so much.

Capt.KAOS
7th Nov 2005, 09:41
Nice weather forcasted this week in France, so the riots will continue. Only rain or tears can stop the riots for now. It's long past immigration an other issues now, just juvenile gangs (17-22 year, sometimes as young as 10) protecting their turf.

ORAC
7th Nov 2005, 10:01
Late last night rioters shot and injured 10 police officers, two seriously, when security forces confronted 200 stone-throwers. One officer was treated in hospital for shotgun wounds to the throat, and another for leg wounds. The gunmen were among crowds attacking police in Grigny, south of Paris. It was the first time police were injured by weapon fire since the unrest started nearly two weeks ago.....

In a sign of the little-reported permanent insurrection on the estates, the police said that more than 30,000 vehicles have been burnt in France so far this year....

Over the ten days, the wreckers’ tactics have changed, the police say. To avoid pitched battles with the CRS riot police, they are moving fast in small groups, sometimes by scooter. “They smash the window with a hammer and throw in petrol and light it and the whole thing goes up,” a police officer said. “Sometimes they put a firelighter on the seat, which has a delayed reaction, letting them get away before we arrive.” The police are using seven helicopters in the Paris region, trying to track the youths, but they admit that they are unable to keep up with the little groups of hooded youngsters who flit among the dark streets.....

One interior ministry official admitted it was "very hard" to counter small, highly mobile bands of youths, who communicate by mobile phone and are intent on causing "maximum material damage" while avoiding "all confrontation with the police".....

Evidence emerged that the rioters, if not organised on a national scale, were coordinating locally: police in Evry, south of Paris, found a petrol-bomb factory.....

brain fade
7th Nov 2005, 13:39
True 'Multiculteralism' is a lovely concept, as someone above pointed out.
The management of society in order to bring it about is no simple matter.
What we have been sold as 'multiculteralism' is simply slack control of immigration followed by a singular disengagement from the areas which have been ghetto-ised.
For this sort of thing to work there needs to be large and expensive involvement by our 'leaders' at local, regional and national level.
Without this work being done the seperate minority groups simply seperate into a variety of strata and of course each concentrates within their layer and with minimal involvement with the neighbours. Tension inevitably builds up.

The riots in France and elsewhere are a result of this simple lack of effort at integration. It's about as far from true 'multiculteralism' as you can get.

The situation here (the UK) is suffering from the same lazy situation. We can't expect people to simply 'mix in' with each other on their own. There has to be active effort to mix people of different cultures together. Not easy to do tho' especiallyas it's a truism that a lot of 'white' people simply don't much care for 'coloured people' and vice versa. Yes, obviously not me or thee, but undeniable and uncomfortable nonetheless.

Wish I could think of a solution.

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 13:48
Controlled immigration. Tighter policies on integration. Less ghettoisation. Requirement on learning the language and obliging immigrants to learn local culture. Would be but a very few it might be worth persuing perhaps.

Grandpa, Davaars comments simply are about what is actualy taking place in Paris. Perhaps your attention might be better served in analysing the quote
"intelligence of the problem and generally speaking of social and politics." of your very own politicians!!
:hmm:

G-CPTN
7th Nov 2005, 14:39
The problem with all this is generalisation.
All "Certain race" are "*******". I have found that acquaintances are either desirable or undesirable, regardless of race (or creed). I don't like ALL of my own race, and I don't dislike all of other nationalities. Of course, there are some nationalities who seem more content with others of like thinking (we found the Danes to be generally ageeable - we are white English). Our conception of the French was negative. Our son married a French girl, and with great trepidation we met her delightful parents. No problem - some of the nicest people I've met. In the 70s I worked with a black Kenyan asian who is also one of the nicest people I know. Mrs G-CPTN worked with a gorgeous black (gay) who we meet occasionally. Great guy. OTOH, there are white straights that I detest and would avoid like the plague. Yet 'we' form a collective opinion of the Irish, (the French), Pakistanis, Jamaicans, etc etc. No doubt this is detected by the other people and reflected in their response, so that all 'foreigners' (of a particular race) respond 'predictably'. Scandinavians (we are lead to believe) are all into Free Love, yet living in Denmark I found them to be more moral than the Brits. (as a youngster I'd go to a party hoping to score. If successful, the following day there'd be regrets. In Denmark, couples would meet, be attracted, then discuss 'doing it' and arrange a date for the deed, after which 'no regrets'.) Perhaps times have changed in the UK? Oh, and all Swedes are blondes, right? Wrong!
We concentrate on visual characteristics (such as football strip) and decide what the individual is like, and classify all such as identical. Are all student nurses a 'good bet'? Do all North Africans riot, or just the ones living in France (or maybe it's the young ones?). Maybe it's the UNEMPLOYED young North Africans living in France. Perhaps it's because the Minister has called them 'rabble' (not scum BTW). If President Blair decided that all pensioners were rabble and should be treated as such, I guess there'd be a revolution here (in the UK).

>Tighter policies on integration
Allocate every immigrant to a native household as a lodger, then we could get to know each other's ways . . .
Then we could start with Jews, Christians, Catholics, Travellers, Youth, Pensioners, Gays (sorry, Homosexuals), Taxi drivers, Policemen, Pilots, Stewards, LAMEs, . . .

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 15:02
Tomorrow's French Forecast

http://www.fototime.com/%7B730BC2C9-C69C-4ACE-BF0E-BAA61F18E820%7D/picture.JPG

I have no idea why she only has one leg.

Squawk7777
7th Nov 2005, 15:26
All this reminds me of my days listening to "Demain, c'est loin" by IAM rapping about the life in the suburbs. That was over 10 years ago. :(

allan907
7th Nov 2005, 15:38
Having escalated to seriously newsworthy proportions we are just starting to get this in Oz.

Forgive the simplistic view of things but it seems that western countries (ie the 1st world) take in enormous amounts of economic immigrants (for that is what they are), whose aspirations are then not achieved and they repay the hospitality by vicious rioting??????

The UK has seen a little of it so far but the Enoch Powell "rivers of blood" will surely come about. Hopefully, Australia is managing things a little better but, with the increasingly strident statements of the 'huggy fluffies' swaying the immigration policies I rather think not.

What the bloody hell happened to my world?????????

airship
7th Nov 2005, 15:52
I do believe that the French government's patience in dealing with the rioting is finally reaching its limits. There have been massive arrests over the last few days. Too late for some on this forum perhaps, who might have preferred curfews and "shoot to kill" orders from day one.

But France is unlike many other democracies. Many governments would have needed far fewer excuses before taking a very tough stance. But this is France. Where blockading fuel depots or ports, dumping tonnes of vegetables at the entrances of government offices or destroying imperialist fast-food restaurants hardly raises any eyebrows in consternation.

I can only applaud the government's reaction to date. They have so far avoided an escalation in the general level of violence. It would have been so easy to allow French police who are armed, free reign to remonstrate. One could only shudder at the consequences. The "hard" elements behind the rioting have until now been able to hide amongst the mostly juvenile rioters. Old enough to cause mayhem, but you still wouldn't want to be caught in bed with one of them. But some here would anyway argue that it's OK to shoot them...

Or use as excuse to explain why multiculturalism doesn't or will never work, anywhere. As far as I can see, the cités from which the problems have their origins, are most often a monoculture. That is to say, those huge '70s multi-storey concrete housing developments, built as convenient dormitories in which to house mostly immigrant populations when labour was short, without the amenities of the small towns they really were, have come back to haunt France. They've become non-Jewish (sic) ghettos. Where the monoculture is poverty, high unemployment and lack of hope. Up until now, the French government's policy has been mainly to try to improve the look of these enclaves, sometimes by destroying whole tower blocks, or just remodelling the others. But little real effort has been expended in ensuring that the 2nd or 3rd generation of immigrant's offspring can escape their surroundings. After all, the government can only institute laws against discrimination. They can't actually eradicate it. That last bit depends on the French who are employers, owners of apartments to rent etc... :zzz:

PS. The most efficient way for those wanting "rivers of blood" IMHO is for them to prick themselves repeatedly with sharp objects. There might be some anti-coagulatant drugs they could take at the same time too... :yuk:

tony draper
7th Nov 2005, 16:03
Mr Le Penn must be rubbing his hands together.

Ozzy
7th Nov 2005, 16:15
They have so far avoided an escalation in the general level of violence. Eh? What news reports are you reading airship? Now there has been the first fatality (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/) and there most likely will be more unless something is done to stop it.

Ozzy

airship
7th Nov 2005, 16:23
After 10 nights of rioting and (how many?) thousands of burned cars, government buildings, schools, creches etc. I'd have thought that the 1st unfortunate casualty...proves that the event is an exception to the rule?! :sad: nevertheless...

Ozzy
7th Nov 2005, 16:29
airship, the point I am making is that the French government has not avoided an escalation in the general level of violence by their current stance.

Ozzy

Davaar
7th Nov 2005, 16:37
Grandpa, Paterbrat is quite correct. I am offering nothing new, save a cold appreciation of what is happening, and could be and was foreseen to happen. I am indulging in: “I told you so”, very bad form of course, but true.

Recall the tale of Cassandra. She offended Apollo, who condemned her forever to tell the truth, but never to be believed. She told the Trojans what would happen if they admitted the Wooden Horse, but they knew better. They were wrong, but I believe they did not later go to Cassandra and ask her to fix things. Why ask me how to fix what the politicians and the wets here have brought? As little as a year ago they hurled abuse at the slightest hint that France should tread softly in the matter of the chador. You remember them? The reason I gave at the time was simple honesty. If you invite them in, accept them as they are. If you do not like them as they are, do not let them in.

Cheerio says we have only ourselves to blame. The Hell we do. I blame all those who promoted this looney multiculturalism. I recall many of their names from here, and how arrogantly they would write. We can’t generalise, say some. Of course we can. That is how insurance works. We call it statistics and probability. What we cannot do is particularise from the generality. We can say that 100,000 German soldiers are likely to be a tough crew. We cannot in advance say that Hans there is a hero or a coward.

Even more obvious is the case of the people who tell you frankly they hate you. It is not just a few “bad apple” Moslems who dislike the West. Leader after leader says so. They prove it by aeroplane bombs and suicide bombs. That gives me a hint they mean it. Those others whose customs routinely involve maltreatment and mutilation of women and girl children, them I can do without.

Until about 300 AD the Christian church was a refugee church, in back rooms and so on. Then Pope Silvester and the Emperor Constantine united in what came to be the Holy Roman Empire, that lasted 1000 years. It gave us law, literature, civil organisation, diplomacy, an internationalist perception. In thread after thread here some scholar comes up, as if it were new, with a doctrinal point that shows the Virgin Birth has a long tradition shared with other religions, or that it’s hard to prove Revelation, or that Sister Full of Grace clipped him up the side of the head when he was eleven. So see! Christianity is claptrap!

Forget Christianity. I agree with all those clever reservations that I read here and few more they have not found out yet. Let’s find a new name: How about “Paris”? No, with all respect not big enough. How about “France?”. No, it is bigger, with a wonderful and ancient history of scholarship and ideas and adventure.; but No, still not big enough.

How about: “Western Civilisation?”. Yes, that would cover it, and Western Civilisation is in deadly peril, and some posters here are the source of many of its dangers. We have no direction and a declining birthrate, but they sure do have direction and a soaring biurthrate. Get used to them. Thank God I'll be dead soon.

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 16:43
Britain has had it's fair share of riots as well, there were riots in Notting Hill, London and Nottingham in 1958.

Then there were the riots in 1981, in Mersyside, Bristol and London.

More recently, this year, there have had riots in Yorkshire towns.

The common threads throughout all these riots have been youth unemployment, a feeling of being discriminated against and in general by second generation immigrants.

I am sure I remember reading about riots in 19th century London involving Irish immigrants, whats the betting they were second generation and suffering from unemployment and discrimination? I would be willing to wager this sort of discussion was happening in the smarter coffee houses of London at the time.
"Damned Paddy's coming over here and taking our jobs and women. If we aren't careful we will all be Catholics before you know it!"

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 16:52
Destroyed from within. By those who were invited in and those who held the doors wide without let hindrence or reservation then watched the abuse of the systems, and errosion and destruction of the values and traditions which had been built up over the centuries to make the economic havens and culture of tolerance and freedoms which are being abused.

Why pray tell is the immigration generaly only in one direction?

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 16:55
This from a Brit who give his location as being Jeddah, Saudi Arabia? :rolleyes:

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 17:03
An unashamed economic immigrant who makes no pretence of being anything other than exactly that. One who satisfied stringent requirements to enter, recieved no handouts, followed the law, never rioted complained held demos, openly criticised the authorities, complied with the draconian religeous laws, was obliged to do without any place of worship, funnily enough Flypuppy I do worship, and generaly complied with each and every regulation of my host country.

I then come back here to find that the precise opposite happening. Open derision and hatred preached by Muslim clerics in Londons streets and being told that this is acceptable. Seeing riots happening here by huge sections of the population who have come here frrely yet seem to wish to create small facsimiles of their homecountries. Quite frankly it bemuses me.

G-CPTN
7th Nov 2005, 17:05
>Why pray tell is the immigration generaly only in one direction?

Because the reverse is called emigration?

>never rioted complained held demos, openly criticised the authorities,

But YOU were FIRST generation. These are second generation, by which time they've discovered how the system works.

Caudillo
7th Nov 2005, 17:15
Perhaps this view is not correct, but having observed the distrubances in paris and elsewhere, for instance the UK - is it unsafe to begin to assume that a given country should perhaps discriminate on the origin of an immigrant? After all, there are differences between villages, towns, regions and countries - and in many cases, they can be very wide.

France is a liberal, western European country - and although by no stretch of the imagination do you see all her north african and muslim immigrants and descendents rioting - neither do you see anyone from well represented immigrant communities from more culturally similar countries such as portugal and spain, even britain, rioting.

The same goes for everywhere in the world to a greater or lesser extent.

Whilst it isn't said that all England football fans are thugs, there is a well recognised hooligan element amongst the supporters that is not perhaps present amongst, say, swiss fans - this football phonomenon is acknowledged and nobody makes any bones about it. Has violence at the grounds not decreased since the 80's?

Therefore, is it not true that people from certain countries may generally be more disruptive and subsequently less desirable as citizens than others?

Grandpa
7th Nov 2005, 17:18
...........Another time I agree with Tony!

Yes Le Pen is rubbing his hands together......

And he isn't alone.....I can read a lot of posters trying to make this conflict bigger and bigger, as if their only hope was an escalation toward civil war....No!.....Toward "Civilisation war"!

My opinion about our authorities isn't very positive, but I think they aren't stupid enough to adopt this suicidal attitude.

I heard to day Mohamed Kaouane interview (sorry for racist anti-Islam righty haties, he is Police Officer and delegate in their union): he emphasized about police restrain to avoid pushing their neighbours in rioters arms.

I heard Fwad Allaoui President of Musleem association calling for respect of law and police and for dialog about integration.

Even Sarkozy came paying respect to policemen and policewomen wounded, and insisted on their sense of discipline, not any shot was fired.


I heard catholic bishops : same words.

.....................and more: saturday night riots stopped at 08.30pm in many cities ( an important soccer match was on the air on French TV!)

skydriller
7th Nov 2005, 17:25
You are being way too soft on these rioters airship, as is the French government IMHO. 1400 cars burnt so far according to TF1, Police openly shot at in the streets. Its been going on a week now!!

Grandpa, I also cant believe how restrained the Police/Gendarmerie are being, though Im in two minds as to whether or not it has helped.....

I just dont buy the whole no hope/job/money, oppressed by society etc arguement..... How does the logical thinking of such a person go, is it :- "I dont have a job 'cause Im from morrocco (right, its not 'cause of the 'attitude' is it? - see an earlier post by Farrel), so I know what I need to do, I'll pull some poor old dear out of a bus, pour petrol over her and set light to her"...............:mad: :mad: :mad:

There can be NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS!!!!

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 17:35
And yes there will always be generalisations. It is true these are not accurate, yes they do tar many innocents with the same brush. But it is done and broadly, sometimes, does appear to cover what particular subject is being discussed 'generaly'. There are and will always be exceptions.

As for football Grandpa that is followed avidly by many nationalities does indeed trascend race religion and rose to it's present emminence from England along with the soccer thugs also from England. Now that was a generalisation.
Actualy someone the other day said soccer was started by the Incas?? Balls were kicked through hoops. Oh...yes, and they killed the losers afterwards.

ORAC
7th Nov 2005, 18:00
Problems spreading?

Nov. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Arsonists who burned five cars in Berlin today may have sought to imitate rioters in France, police in the German capital said. Another three cars were set alight at a car dealer in the northern German city of Bremen. " .... unidentified arsonists also set alight a disused school building late yesterday, the Bremen city's police said on their Web site.....

In the central Brussels area of Gare du Midi, five cars were burned by vandals, Agence France-Presse cited police in the Belgian capital as saying today. Belgian officials downplayed any connection with the French violence, saying the unrest was a local incident, the news agency reported....

BERLIN, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Berlin authorities believe arson attacks that damaged five cars on Sunday night were set by copycats of the violence in France and were not organised, Berlin Interior Minister Ehrhart Koerting told Reuters. Koerting, who is responsible for the police in the German capital, said he did not believe Berlin would be hit by the level of violence that has plagued France for the last 11 nights. Nevertheless, he said police would reinforce their patrols.

"We assume that these were copycats who are taking advantage of the situation in France to do the same thing here," Koerting said in an interview. He said, however, he could not imagine the attacks spreading the way they have in France. "I believe we have a sufficient social security network here for immigrants that prevents anyone from falling into any level of despair," Koerting said. "As a result, I think there are no reasons for the situation among the immigrants to erupt here."....

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 18:01
There is no justification for it, but in the UK it seems to happen every 20 years or so, following the last wave of immigration from whatever racial/ethinc group.

So unless we are willing to become devout European Christian warriors and get [email protected] for the Lord we are doomed, it seems.

Paterbrat, while you were unable to openly worship in your chosen country of employment, you knew the score before you went and were paid for your discomfort. You also knew you could return to where you call home whenever you felt like it. Let's face like most ex-pats you never call your host country home, do you?

My deep hatred of right wingers/xenophobes/neo nazis/ racists is somewhat coloured by what has happened to myself and my family recently. For the past 2 years we have been subjected to abuse (physical and verbal) by our white, Dutch next door neighbours and their friends. They support the Holland for the Dutch way of thinking. If it was just me they were attacking that would be ok, I am big enough and ugly enough to live with it, but my 5 year old daughter has been bullied by both the children (16 and 14 respectively) and the parents that live next door. My wife has been spat upon, and abused at school where she is a primary school teacher and the lovely people next door refer to her as a traitor. This is only a small sample of what we have endured.

Since we are the only people who have had to put up with this sort of behaviour we have toughed it out and sold our house and will be leaving the Netherlands. If there was a group of us who were being abused this way, I can well understand the need to group together and either commiserate with each other or maybe "do something about it".

Maybe you can undertsand I get a littled miffed by certain comments. I now know what it is like to be a victim of this sort of behaviour. It's not much fun.

This is in no way to excuse the actions of these rioters, it's just that there is always two sides to every story.

G-CPTN
7th Nov 2005, 18:07
>five cars were burned by vandals,

Now THAT'S a generalisation! Who said that they weren't Goths? Vandals are ALWAYS getting the blame these days.

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 18:19
Indeed Flypuppy, I sympathise entirely with your plight. Yes I did know exactly what I was going to and made no pretence of taking the nationality, using their system to my advantage abusing their hospitality or trying to fight their system. If I didn't like it I could leave when ever I liked. And so can many of these people. I have seen countries former colonies where long time residents from the Colonial country stayed and became, surprise suprise very second class citizens. Shock horror gasp. Riots, protests, appeals to the judiciary??? you must be joking. They would have been set upon and killed in the streets had they ever dared to even think about such things. In fact in Rhodesia they were killed on their farms simply by being there. Not much fuss in the west when that happened. Tell me about racism tell me about second class citizens, tell me about immigrant and foreign workers rights; been there, seen itand done that, and have I got the T shirt yes I as a matter of fact I do.

Davaar
7th Nov 2005, 18:37
Ah well, Flypuppy, you write:
_________________________
So unless we are willing to become devout European Christian warriors and get [email protected] for the Lord we are doomed, it seems.
_________________________

Did you really so misunderstand what I wrote?

And Grandpa:
_________________________
(sorry for racist anti-Islam righty haties, he is Police Officer and delegate in their union)
_________________________

Just for the avoidance of doubt, do you include me in this racist anti-Islam righty hatie class?

El Grifo
7th Nov 2005, 19:15
Expanding slightly on the North African Immigrant theme for a moment, let me tell you what is going on here in my adopted home of Lanzarote.

Day after day, week after week, for several years now, illegal immigrants from both North Africa and the Sub Saharan region arrive here, mainly at night and mainly via the island of Fuerteventura, which is only 60 odd miles from the African Coast.

The number that do not make it and end up washed up on the beaches can only be guessed at. I have seen as many as three helicopters fishing out the cadavers, before they reach the tourist beaches.

The Sub-Saharan, black Africans that make it, if not caught and repatriated, usually end up working on road gangs or construction sites, for very little money.

The North Africans on the other hand, survive mainly by thieving.

The level of break-ins has soared over the last year, to a point where the Guardia Civil tell us that "It is out of control"

In my street alone 25 houses have been hit in the last few months. My house was hit twice in 8 days both times whilst we were sleeping.

The North African thiefs normally take only cash and mobile phones. it has reached epedemic level.

How do we know that 99% pf the robberies are being carried out by Moroccans and Algerians? Simple, any phone calls that appear on the phone bills of the stolen phones are made to Morocco or Algeria.

We cannot tar all of the North Africans with the same brush, but there is for sure, a recurring theme.

A neighbour of mines was recently heard to say " Its ok for these feckers to believe that allah will provide etc etc, but eventually I end up with the invoice"

I have now armed myself with a fairly menacing looking BB pistol.

Next Morro I see anywhere within by boundary will get it in the neck. Simple as that !!

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 19:29
Hmmm, but just a thought El Grifo. He may well come back with some of his mates. What sort of car did you say you drove?

El Grifo
7th Nov 2005, 19:39
Silver Mitsubishi 4 x 4 with my company name splattered over the back !! Bring the Feckers on !!!!!

Seriously tho' Paterbrat, what is it about these people.

I keep thinking back to Churchills well worn statement, relating to "Mohammedanism" and realise how true it is.

Desperation is one thing, it drives people to incredible extremes. For these guys it is simply a way of life. It is in the blood, there is something broken in the machine room.

Think I will start parking the truck in the garage for a while :suspect: :suspect:

con-pilot
7th Nov 2005, 19:46
I’ve just heard on the news that the Prime Minister of France state that he will allow local governments to implement curfews to stop the rioting.

Well maybe this will work, seems a little late, but I guess later is better than never. Nothing else the French government has tried to do to stop the rioting have worked.

Another question, is there a law that prohibits the use of the French Army in domestic matters?

Edited to say; I feel for you El Grifo, good luck.:ok:

Paterbrat
7th Nov 2005, 19:50
Sadly having watched McIntyres toughest cities, this behaviour is by no means confined to N Africans or Morroccans. The inner cities around the UK have loads of candidates neither Muslim, Arab or African.

G-CPTN
7th Nov 2005, 19:57
Thread drift:-
>is there a law that prohibits the use of the French Army in domestic matters?

What is the situation in the USA? Police, National Guard, Marines, Army, USAF. Were any/all permitted to help in New Orleans, or did they have to be directed by the Senate?
In the UK we had Military volunteering resources during recent flooding (Carlisle), but it wasn't a formal involvement (ie rescue operation).

OFBSLF
7th Nov 2005, 20:20
What is the situation in the USA? Police, National Guard, Marines, Army, USAF. Were any/all permitted to help in New Orleans, or did they have to be directed by the Senate?The situation in the US is rather complex. The drafters of our constitution had a great distrust of a standing army having seen abuses first hand. In addition, our nation is a federation of "sovereign" states. Add to that the passage of Posse Comitatus after the Civil War, which places limits the use of the military in performing law enforcement functions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

I certainly don't claim great knowledge of this area laws and regulations. Here's my understanding:

A US governor can give orders to the national guard of that state during an emergency (provided those units have not already been mobilized by the President). National Guard troops from one state cannot be deployed into another state unless they are invited by that state's governor. Similarly, federal troops (active duty Army, Marines, etc.), can't be deployed into a state unless the governor asks the federal government for assistance or the President declares martial law.

In the aftermath of Katrina, it is my understanding that most of the LA National Guard had already been deployed to somewhere sandy, so they were not available for deployment by the LA governor. Even if they had been, there probably aren't enough of them for the situation at hand. After the LA governor belatedly requested troops from the President, National Guard and active duty troops were sent to the area from across the country. They were not enforcing laws per se, but they were patrolling.

Coast Guard units also deployed to the region as well and were some of the first ones in.

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 20:32
Davaar,

my comment was very much tongue in cheek, alas the limitations of the bulletin board.

I understood what you wrote but I also feel that religion is not playing as large a role in this plague of riots as some here may be assuming. Poor living conditions, perceived discrimination and base criminality are likely to be higher up the scale of reasons. If any religion is to be invoked then it is that idle hands make the devil's work.

If, as you assume Davaar, that religion is the root cause of these riots and France is lost to Christendom what is the solution? Go to war with Islam? Persecute all Arabs, Persians and followers of the faith of Mohammed until they are either wiped out of Europe/Western Civilisation or driven back to the deserts whence they came? Have we not moved on since the Middle Ages or must we descend to the level of barbarians? You absolve yourself of answers to these questions by saying "I told you so".

Many of these types of riots have happened throughout history, when cheap imported labour starts to feel a bit put upon. Were there not slave riots in ancient Rome and Greece? Were there not also bloody Slave revolts in Virginia in the 1820's?

I read recently this short article:
This report begins: 'Copy of a letter received this morning from an inhabitant of Lauder; containing a particular account of that dreadful Riot which took place there on Monday morning last, between a number of Irish shearers and the inhabitants.' The letter is dated September 26th, 1821.
The incident described was apparently provoked by a family of Irish gypsy origins, who had travelled to the Borders from Glasgow to seek work during the Harvest. It is alleged that having been deprived of work by local sheep-shearers, the Doughertys drunkenly recruited assistance from other Irish shearers and attacked the townspeople of Lauder. It is impossible to know how fair this account is. Religious bigotry and the issue of Irish Home Rule made anti-Irish sentiment common in nineteenth-century Scotland, and the prejudice of the letter-writer is evident in some places, such as the snide reference to the Irish shearers as 'the Pats'.

There were riots in London in the 18th and 19th centuries when large numbers of Irish soldiers also found themselves discharged on to the frequently unwelcoming streets of London at the conclusions of Britain's colonial wars.

Bigotry, fear of the unknown and those who are "different" to us all play a part in defining "whose fault it is".

In the late 1950's and the early 1980's the riots in Notting Hill, Brixton, Toxteth and St. Pauls were occasioned by those who were unemployed and living in poor conditions. They were not all black and they were not all Muslim.

In our modern 24 hour news channel society, images of burning cars and fighting with police are brought to our living rooms in real time. Youths with too much energy and not enough gumption see these images as exciting and adventurous. Much in the same way that a 19 year old is more likely to see the adventure and excitement of charging a machine gun nest, while a grumpy old sod like myself will call up air support or hide behind a rock and lob hand grenades at it.

In the UK, many immigrants do the jobs that others do not wish to do. Street sweepers, cleaners, cheap kitchen staff, these are just some of the low paid low esteem jobs that immigrants do.

Paterbrat, you say many of these people can leave whenever they like, but can they? If they are third generation are they not as entitled to live where they live? If they were to leave where are they to go?

As for Africa, I have spent many years there, and seen much inhumanity to man, Black on Black - tribe against tribe. I have seen dead bodies litter the streets, empty blackened villages where the stench of death lingers. I have suffered racism at the hands of Nigerian police and officialdom. Wars and atrocities occur in parts of Africa that we couldn't spell never mind find on a map and rarely if ever find their way in to the consciousness of Western Civilization.

I cant figure out any of the answers, my intellect far too limited but looking through history it seems we just cycle through same old sh!t again and again. I realise that humans seem incapable of learning from the past.

bjcc
7th Nov 2005, 20:32
While there is some merit, I think, to the suggestion that the French Police being restrained has stopped it from getting worse, there is a counter argumnet, that suggests that had it been nipped in the bud, with somewhat more robust policing, the French Insurance Companies would not be dealing with a great deal of paper work this morning.

Also, from my own experience, riots are great fun for rioters. You get to chuck things at the police, run round in a big gang, thus reducing the chance of being caught. You can set fire to things and loot.

Others see you doing that on the TV, and suddenly they are all doing it in Paris this year (so as to speak)......

My expeience of riots was on the recieving end of bricks, bottles and petrol bombs. And the so called race issue didn't seem to bother people of any ethnic origin as they relieved shops of anything they could carry, knowing that they could get away with it.

con-pilot
7th Nov 2005, 20:41
G-C to provide a simple answer the National Guard is under the direct control of the State’s Governor. The President of the United States can federalize the National Guard, or just select elements of the National Guard, during a national emergency.

The Coast Guard is a federal agency, however, except during war they are under a civilian agency and by law can respond to any emergency when call by local authorities without specific federal government approval.

No federal agency by law, including FEMA, can operate in any state unless the governor of a state request their assistance. The United States Armed Forces are prohibited by law to act as a law enforcement agency in any local matter even when requested by a local government. The only exception is in a declared state national emergency such as occurred during the late 50s and early 60s regarding integration of the school systems in Arkansas and Mississippi and the race riots in Detroit.

The reason I asked the question about the French army was to find out why the French has not used their armed forces to help end the riots.

Sorry I didn't see OFBSLF's reply before I answered.

Ozzy
7th Nov 2005, 20:44
While there is some merit, I think, to the suggestion that the French Police being restrained has stopped it from getting worse I don't understand why some people think that the riots did not "get worse". The first death has been reported, this from the 11th night of rioting. Why is someone dying somehow not worse than cars burning? Indeed the riots spread beyond Paris - exactly how is the spread in rioting somehow not "getting worse"?

Ozzy

bjcc
7th Nov 2005, 21:01
Ozzy

Not getting worse is perhaps a bad choice of words. By not being too heavy handed, the theory goes that it will die down as they get bored.

By going in heavy handed, it winds people up, and gives rioters justication (in their minds) to escelate things. In other words it has taken 11 days for someone to die. If the CRS had done their thing unrestrained then that first death could have happened earlier.

Davaar
7th Nov 2005, 21:49
Thank you for that, Flypuppy.

No, I do not know what to do. I suggested that no Trojans who survived the sack asked Cassandra they should do now. She told them before and they would not listen. Why should she tell them now? She knrew what they should not do. Why should she know what they should do? Would they listen any more? I thought the West should never have allowed hostile elements to flood in. I distinguish between the metred immigration that has gone on over the centuries to accommodate refugees, and the free-for-all that we have seen of late. The one can be absorbed, the other not.

You speak of the Irish. Having mixed Scottish and Irish ancestry I can see both sides to some degree. It is impossible to read with dry eyes of the famines, and of much that came earlier under the Normans and Cromwell. Still, I remember the construction of the hydro plants at Pitlochry after the war, and the Irish had the reputation described by el Grifo.

As you say, there have been riots through history. Many of the conditions that create them are known. Why set about to provide those conditions? Because multiculturalism is Good. Why is it Good? If races closely akin do not live all that smoothly, why should those vastly different? None of us in Canada is a racist, God forbid! Heh! Heh! But how many of the – Heh! Heh! – “average” Canadians want to live anywhere near a reserve? Damn' few. Between us girls, I can tell you one by name, and why.

You dislike “fear of the unknown”. What of fear of the known. I could tell some tales of religious bigotry. If from the other side I dislike some abuse, does that make me a bigot? There have been movements of peoples in all history. Huns, Goths, Franks, Allemans, Gauls, Celts, all coming and taking. That does not mean I have to give. Nasty and selfish? Possibly, but the territorial imperative is deep set. The next thread will be a return to the old favourite on the right to bear arms.

I am not much persuaded by the argument that we have to import cheap labour to do our dirty work. I’d rather do it myself or try by technology. At least make an attempt.

Now to Christianity and the Birth rate, two quite different topics.

For a thousand plus years the West built, trial and error, battles and wars, kings and chancellors, state and church, a system of law, society, care that still exists. The basis of much of our law was religion, in fact Christianity. Christianity as we know it was carpentered between a Roman Pontiff and a Roman Emperor as a union of church and state. It was blessed by the Council of Nicaea in 325, amended about sixty years later. If you think the church imposed this on the Emperor, you will believe in the Tooth Fairy. Some people actually did believ it, and that was a bonus.

Unfortunately it developed abuses, so it broke up in 1540 or so. Pity, really, and I am a protestant. Still, our law is still largely Canon law. I even used Canon law to support my case in aid of Nigerian tribal law for a little black lady who was found battered in a snow drift by her owner, here in Canada. Guess where her owner came from. If I could get that SOB out of here he would be gone before you could say “Human Rights”. With the disappearance of the Christian base, much of our law has become shaky.

As you tell us from time to time, Christianity has one or two weak spots. What is the alternative? The 18th century enlightenment? Does Rousseau’s theory work? Incidentally, since we all criticise bad clergymen, how about his bastards, each of whom he deserted to die so far as he knew? And I believe some did. Karl Marx, then. Not so good either. And what about the only slave he ever knew? His very own skivvy, whom he never paid in all his life.

Then the birth rate. Why did France really have to have that war in 1870, before it was too late? Why did French conscripts have to serve for three years whereas the Prussian only two? Population.

Take a look at whose population is leaping. Not yours. Not Europe’s. Maybe you should get on with the sh*gging.

I do not want to persecute anyone, but I do not want uncivilized practices surrounding me. I’ll spare you the list. I get bored typing it. I do not know what will happen in France. I meant it when I wrote that soon I’ll be dead and it will not matter to me. I am sorry for those of you who are young, and for my child. I would give personal thanks to one very prominent PPRuNer, now departed, it seems, who let never a day go by without trumpeting the joys of multiculturalism, but since he is not here, I shall not. General thanks, then, to all who have brought us to this pass. I hope they live long.

Farrell
7th Nov 2005, 21:56
The CRS are now mobilised in Lyon too. The aggression where the police officer who shot in the neck has changed the situation.
If a police officer is killed in the course of this event - you will see the tactic change drastically.
People are started to get restless here too and tensions are rising.

Grandpa
7th Nov 2005, 22:53
You have got all my sympathy Flypuppy, for being confronted with racism. Did you get any help and friendship with anybody in your neighbourhood or at work?

Racism is the worst plague among human beings, and it is the source for many kinds of tragic consequences as we can see now.

It's part of the well mixed cocktail which produced the present mess, along with disregarding the needs for decent housing , education and employment opportunities.

To night I heard Prime Minister Villepin saying he excluded curfew "at the moment", but was ready to use a law dating from 1955 (unfortunately at Algerian war period....) to leave the decision at "préfet" level in any of the 96 French "département".

To allow grown up to get a chance to convince young troublemakers to stop their mischiefs, he announced quick reform and projects to restaure hope (where did I hear it before.....?) in poor suburbs: better schools, better housing, work opportunities.

Another evidence of the previous mistakes this government has committed.

Flypuppy
7th Nov 2005, 23:01
Davaar,

Multiculturalism is nothing new, and it is not an affliction that has beset only our timeframe. There were of course multicultural aspects of Greek and Roman civilization. For example there is the epic hero Odysseus, who, in his ten-year struggle to return home after the Trojan War, was said to have “seen the cities of many people and known their mind.”

As myth and symbol, Odysseus presents two contrasting attitudes to discovery and alien cultures. One is of Odysseus as anthropologist, a man open to strangeness. In this sense he prefigures Greek philosophy and democracy, with their basis on questioning inherited beliefs, norms, and customs and judging them in the light of natural reason. The other face of Odysseus is that of the man who seeks only that which points homeward, and is thus not genuinely multicultural.

Both of these attitudes are evident in the work of Herodotus, the “father of history.” On the one hand, to write on the Persian Wars he scoured the world for stories and legends. On the other, he constructed a narrative of the triumph of free men over despotism, and in so doing established the opposition of Greek, free, and civilized versus barbarian, servile, and base.

In the Hellenistic era, which lasted from the late 4th century BC to at least the 7th century AD, the Greeks encountered four other civilizations: Roman, Celtic, Judaic, and Persian. What happened in that era was genuinely multicultural, but not by design. As the historian Arnaldo Momigliano pointed out, Hellenistic civilization had all the instruments for knowing other civilizations except command of languages, and all the marks of a conquering and ruling class except faith in its own wisdom.

Cultural imperialism and multiculturalism were therefore two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, a Stoic guru went to Egypt to instruct the Egyptians about wisdom and boldly declared that, “to a wise man, everything is Greece.” On the other hand, the same period was characterized by an increasingly anxious search for personal salvation, to be found in putatively exotic lore or alien wisdom. But this wisdom was not really alien. Since the Greeks did not learn other languages, they found not the reality of other cultures but a projection of their own aspirations.

The search for salvation culminated in Christianity, which brought true multiculturalism to Greece. Although it spoke the language of Greek philosophy and Roman morality, it introduced elements that really were deeply alien to Greek civilization: the Judaic focus on the power and justice of God and a unique promise of individual salvation.

Extending this then leads us to religions, which by their very nature are multicultural. They attempt to subjugate and control disparate ethnic groupings by providing one banner of truth to follow. Whether that banner is represented by my God (who is a Protestant God, of course), the Pope's God who will be Catholic, Allah, Jehovah or even the Great Spaghetti Monster. They all represent a single unifying totem which groups of people will identify with and rally round in time of great trial.

Multiculturalism is yet another item in the Great Cycle of Sh!t that humanity goes through and learns nothing from.

When you write that the West should not allow hostile elements in, is it not the case that we in the West are guilty of hostility in the lands of North America, that we took and arrogantly assumed as our own? Distributing smallpox infected blankets to native Indian tribes, slaughtering their food sources and deploying armies against women and children. I do not even need to go far from home to see the effects of hostile elements removing a culture they neither respected nor cared to understand with the Highland Clearances.

In many parts of the world "The West" has imposed it's vales and ideals on peoples and cultures that were doing just fine for millennia before "Enlightenment". Are we maybe now experiencing the great pendulum of history now swinging in the other direction?

Cheap labour has always been required by developed societies, the incumbents are either fully employed doing other things so that cleaning the streets and toilets is seen as being beneath them or there simply is no one left to do those jobs. Technology may go some way to answering those issues, but it may be cheaper to hire 50 Ukrainian workers to pick Brussels Sprouts than it is to develop a mechanical device to do the job.

It is with some regret and sadness that I read the words that your allotted time is nearly over and that you will depart soon. I only hope that you can delay that departure for as long as possible. You have much wisdom, it seems, to impart. I may not agree with some of it but it always sparks some thought and provokes debate, even if it is only internal.

TheFlyingSquirrel
8th Nov 2005, 00:23
simple - too many humans - population needs thining out - all fight - only strongest survive and breed again - all natural kids, all natural.

Davaar
8th Nov 2005, 00:35
Thank you, Flypuppy, I am not planning an instant departure, but one never knows. Last year I had a few unplanned trips to the General, so I am aware that I am now at the calendar subtracting, not the calendar adding stage.

I had thought the riots in Europe would not start for another ten years or so, but I miscalculated.

I am thinking of a career change, but into what I do not know. Perhaps to the Great North where the spider menace is minimal, and not a camel in sight.

On the religion, I have always been sceptical, but I come more and more to see religion as a necessity. To coin a Davaarism, "You do not have to believe what you believe in for it to be true". And as for the dogmatism, we can choose betwen the dogmatic Bible (correction: dogmatic Scots Confession, or dogmatic Westminster Confession, or etc, etc) and dogmatic Holy Mother Church; both dogmatic. The churches are just corporations.

The carpenter starts as sole trader; then he takes on partners to spread the workload; and then he incorporates to create a perpetual persona, ensure succession, and raise finance. The corporation has officers in research and development (theology), in finance and accounting (church funds and church extension), and in marketing and customer support (the parish pastor). Over the years they may appoint the wrong chap in one of the departments, but there are always some with Holiness; the Rev John D........., or Sister Bernadine ........, or the Rev James ......., or the Rev Imam Ali .......or Rabbi ........ I have met them all. At the hospital last time I asked for the RC chap. He did not promise me anything or persuade me to anything, but I was glad he was there. Put it down to weakness if you like, as some here will urge. I don't mind.

Unfortunately there are always some cast-iron b*st*rds too. Trust me on this. Whenever I receive a letter subscribed: "Yours in Christ ........... (Rev), Clerk of Presbytery", I know some minister is getting the shaft.

I do believe that R & D (religious philosophy) is more advanced in Christianity than in Islam, and the ratio of credulous b*st*rds in Islam is greater in power than in Christianity, and it is best to keep the two apart. Just my observation.

I have read the Koran. I do not see how anyone can understand it without a Bible close to hand, because it makes so many references to the Old and New Testaments. I do not know if the hatred between Arabs and the West is religious, or racial, or constipation, and I do not care much. It is real and it is manifest that they do not mix well. That being so, they should stay apart. Why try for the impossible?

Yes, as you say, multiculturalim is nothing new, but that does not mean it is good. It was as disturbing to Rome in the 4th century as it is to Nation states, what is left of them, today. That is why Constantine got his great idea and in effect forced it on the reluctant Pope Silvester. The marble from the Temple of Apollo is now part of the Basilica at Rome. Try that for multiculturalism, Apollo.

Mr. Kobayashi
8th Nov 2005, 00:51
too many humans - population needs thining out

My employer has added you to his list TFS.

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 00:58
Unless your employer has access to about six Trident Boats and launch codes for cargo of same, his thinning out won't amount to a hill of beans as they say Mr Kobayashi.
Six Billion and rising

We have moved beyond killable numbers
:uhoh:

Mr. Kobayashi
8th Nov 2005, 01:16
Let me rephrase......

Mr. TFS has been added to my employer's list.
He has no intentions of thinning the population - just clearing away a garden pest :p

Pontious
8th Nov 2005, 01:23
If the current instability continues, the French Interior Ministry should broadcast on ALL media outputs that there will be a curfew, say 30 mins before sunset until 30 mins after sunrise, stating that if the curfew order is ignored, the next night the Army will be re-inforcing CRS and Police units that will have been issued with a SHOOT TO KILL order. One Policeman has already died, a civilian also died from injuries substained and millions more are living in fear and have to stand aside and watch their possessions and livelihoods go up in smoke.

A 100+ rioting scum gunned down in a nation of 60 million will keep the streets of Europe safe and trouble free for the foreseeable. Why? I hear the bleeding heart liberalists cry.

Because it will show the looters, the rioters, the orchestraters, the organisers, the scum that carry out terrorist acts in the name of some religious cause that WE WILL protect the innocents, WE WILL not tolerate having our towns, cities, countries, civilisation and way of life held to ransom.

To quote a well known rock band, if WE tolerate this, our children will be next.

TheFlyingSquirrel
8th Nov 2005, 01:30
30 minutes before sunrise...this is an FAA question right?:ugh:

OK - you can all beat me down ! I can take it - but where I come from - common ? No, a rareity !

TFS

tinpis
8th Nov 2005, 07:51
Didnt Enoch Powell have a few words about this?
Got him the sack for his troubles.

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 11:48
Davaar the Bible being one of the 'books', and Jesus one of the recognised 'prophets' and both preceding Islam it would seem unlikely that some judicious plagarism/inspiration might not be entirely out of order, just as a suggestion of course. After all both Mary and Jesus were depicted within the Kabaa, for a while.

However back to the troubles in France. They continue and the sosftly softly approach seems to have done little to keep down the flames, though a heavier appraoch may well have fanned them higher. Impossible to accurately say isn't it really.

Grandpa obviously misses the point that 'racism' being an inbuilt mechanism is difficult to simply decide is 'bad' and can be banished by the desire to be 'good'. The italics simply indicate my suspicion that these terms are somewhat fluid and can be interpreted in many different ways by the individual will.

The desire for the lion to lie down with the lamb is laudable but then what would the poor lion eat since grass he aint designed to digest, however once again I digress. The rioting will die down. The local populace however PC and desirous of a happy multicultural society if pushed too hard will become restive and begin taking vigilante action and since there are more of them might not right may well prevail. There is always a backlash and since there are locals who have been known to be both rough tough and mean the consequences could be a lot worse than being hauled off to the local chokey. All of which makes for unpalatable reading. But then again Cassandra wasn't a best selling lady either.

BillHicksRules
8th Nov 2005, 11:55
Pontius,

As a liberal I think you have gone too far in your last post.

I would hardly say that the Manic Street Preachers are a "well known rock band". :D :D :D

Cheers

BHR

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 11:57
Bill I think you may well find a lot of Conservatives were Liberal before they were mugged.;)

BillHicksRules
8th Nov 2005, 13:24
Pater,

It is like the saying " there are no Liberals in a foxhole" ;)

Cheers

BHR

G-CPTN
8th Nov 2005, 13:26
>The rioting will die down.

When they run out of vehicles? Perhaps it's a Transport 2000 plot?

CAT1
8th Nov 2005, 15:21
A solution to the immigrant problem would be let them all come here and then we can all go and live in their countries and enjoy the better weather.

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 15:32
There they tend not to burn cars, simply remove them.

G-CPTN
8th Nov 2005, 15:41
>There they tend not to burn cars, simply remove them.

I thought there was a 'trade' in stolen quality cars from the UK being 'containered' to the Middle East?
It seems (from local observation) that there is also a brisk trade in used cars from Japan being shipped to the UK.

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 15:45
Still, it makes a change from French Farmers burning vehicles fulla English lamb.
We will probably have a few hundred of those "scum" nipping through the chunnel and claiming political asylum, on account of the French police are after their arses.
Lesson should be learned here, on the second night of their fun let the rioters meet No 2 Para on the streets, not the police.
:E

G-CPTN
8th Nov 2005, 16:06
>let the rioters meet No 2 Para on the streets

What about the SAS? (That's the Sunderland Aggression Squad.)

Paterbrat
8th Nov 2005, 17:36
They come over here on holiday. Saw a program on the tracker device. Police chopper in lagos takes off and lo and behold streets are full of the devices. Too many to track or bother about the cop laconicaly remarks.
Wonder if the insurance rates will be affected??? need I wonder:rolleyes:
Tonight it will start calming down.

Lobotumi
8th Nov 2005, 18:09
a couple of quotes from the french press:

if you shoot at a policeman you are a hooligan
if you set fire to a car you are a criminal

:E


the cause of high unemployment in these areas is not racism but rather bureaucracy

:sad:

go figure

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 18:13
Or perhaps they are just unemployable.
Post industrial societies seem to something in common, we all have a fair percentage of our population surplus to requirements, they will remain forever on the debit side of society, take a look at Orwells prols folk,and Orwel was quite correct ,they have to be controlled.
Welcome to the 21 century peeps.
:cool:

West Coast
8th Nov 2005, 18:55
I wish I had the time to go through the Katrina thread and pull out all the damning quotes from grandpa about the US government at differing levels and then find parallels to what is happening all over his country. He was quick to damn the US but his presence here is minimal in comparison. Remember the myth of shoot to kill orders that set him off, nothing here. Hypocrisy in action, or inaction as the case may be.

Welcome to the French Intifada. How much of the rest of Europe will also be affected? I know we have problems here in the US that have caused similiar rioting. I lived through the LA riots. The difference is religion wasn't involved. When someone drove their car through the front window of a store to steal, it was done out of greed. In France, its entwined as a religious struggle as much as a class struggle. A big difference.

Stafford
8th Nov 2005, 19:41
French Intifada - I like it; mind if I use it ?? ;)

BUMPFF
8th Nov 2005, 20:01
The government and the flics will win because they have the resources to keep the peasants in order. For now. Another revolution is a possibilty. It worked before, and it can do so again. Chirac has got his head well buried in the sand.

The biggest indicator to come out of all this is that our authorities' methods are more effective in containing such peasant revolts than those of the French. We get such riots here and there, but not nationwide. For now.

African Tech Rep
8th Nov 2005, 20:29
Westy – never thought I’d say this but it seems the “second generation French” are a bit cleverer than the Yanks – they don’t drive THEIR cars through the windows. :D

French police always seemed to me to be very good at looking cool – but not that brilliant at doing things.
One night watched as kid lost control of his scooter and slid into the back of a cop car – look on cops faces = priceless – hour later, four cars and a wagon there, LOTS of heated discussion between police seemingly revolving around what paperwork needed filling in.:rolleyes:

con-pilot
8th Nov 2005, 20:42
I know exactly what you mean West, I am walking a very thin line on this thread and to be honest I have bitten my tongue (so to speak) more than a few times.

Hopefully the restraint that has been shown by us on this tragedy in France will make the usual suspects that are the first to detract from the US think just a little bit before the their usually standard attacks against United States et al.

Now back to the topic, I understand that curfews will be enforced at midnight tonight in the affected cities in France. Why midnight, surly sunset to sunrise would be more effective, or at least 22:00 to sunrise? Will the curfews be for the entire city or just certain neighborhoods?

If only selected ethnic areas of any given city are to forced into a mandatory curfew will that not just add more hard feelings causing more rioting?

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 21:02
Indeed, but how will said curfew be enforced? they cannot just threaten them with arrest for being on the streets, flinging petrol bombs and burning cars in clear view of les flics has aready rendered them liable to arrest for the last eleven nights surely.

Wino
8th Nov 2005, 21:10
Too all the Yank bashers here...

I would just like to point out my admirable restraint here as well.

You should try it sometime, its not so hard <G>

Cheers
Wino

Davaar
8th Nov 2005, 21:22
I'm not so sure, Dr draper:
_______________________
they cannot just threaten them with arrest for being on the streets,
_______________________

In 1968 or so I was rocking in a chair cunningly contrived to that end on the veranda of a small hotel in that hot-bed of violence, Montpellier, Vermont.

In common with a row of rockers I was smoking a philosophical cigar. A man walked down the street, followed by a dog.

Hi! He said. Hi! we all replied.

Silence.

One of the cigarmen pointed after him with his cigar: "That", he said, "Is the attorney general of the State of Vermont".

Silence resumed.

Then we heard, 10.00 PM, what I recognised as an air-raid siren. "What's that?", I asked.

Silence.

Then: "Curfew. Get the kids off the streets".

Silence.

When I read the views often expressed here about "America", the Home of Scheming Evil, I reflect on that evening.

Conan The Barber
8th Nov 2005, 21:31
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

Indeed.

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 21:33
Any Attorney General walking through some of our estates now would be cooked and eaten Mr Davaar.
What I meant was, what penalty are they risking tonight with the curfew in force that they were not risking last night?.
Has the use of deadly force been threatened?
Hmmm one wonders if the water system and electricity still works on Devils Island,there a idea for ya Mr Chirac.
:uhoh:

Capt.KAOS
8th Nov 2005, 21:37
French bashers restraining? Have a search on various French bashing on PPRuNe...

First days of riots weren't even that special, as it happens all the time. Before the real riots started an average of 80 cars set on fire was called 'normal".

And then there's this aggrevation between Villepin and Sarkozy, where one hates the other and gladly see the other falling flat on his nose by saying the rioters were "scum".

French Intifada, what a load of bollox...:rolleyes:

To keep things in perspective, the '92 LA riots caused 52 death and 3000 wounded, in just 3 days...

Wino
8th Nov 2005, 21:40
Yes, but we do everything bigger in America :E

Cheers
Wino

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 21:41
Supprised there has not been more, the Firearm laws in France are pretty relaxed aren't they?

African Tech Rep
8th Nov 2005, 21:43
Is the Captain saying when the yanks do it they do it good – or when the French do it the do it with restraint ?

Want a real riot – go to the US
(new advertising slogan ?)

TD – how can expect these poor people to afford guns ?
Maybe there will be a government financed discount for them – ready for next time.

Techman
8th Nov 2005, 21:47
Have we just seen the parti pris of the Three Musketeers?

Really, I am just trying shed some light on the subject.....

tony draper
8th Nov 2005, 21:51
Good grief, they don't need to buy em, ,just drop a line to their pals in Iran and Syria.

Grandpa
8th Nov 2005, 23:40
So did I....

You SHOULD read my posts on this thread or others.

I say: READ...........Please don't fancy my thaughts, please READ.

You could learn I labelled our both leaders Bush and Chirac with same indignant qualification: they have the same politic regarding economy, that is give more to the rich and less to the poors.

About religion, I'm afraid you have been misinformed.
These riots are at the moment a game for teens, without any political or religious organisation behind......but you could fancy what enormous benefit extremist could get from any police blunder and "shoot to kill" policy.

If only French bashers could show same restraint as French police.....

ORAC
9th Nov 2005, 06:34
'We hate France and France hates us' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1637213,00.html)

......Sylla summed it up. "We burn because it's the only way to make ourselves heard, because it's solidarity with the rest of the non-citizens in this country, with this whole underclass. Because it feels good to do something with your rage," he said.

"The guys whose cars get torched, they understand. OK, sometimes they do. We have to do this. Our parents, they should understand. They did nothing, they suffered in silence. We don't have a choice. We're sinking in shit, and France is standing on our heads. One way or another we're heading for prison. It might as well be for actually doing something."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to admit, this is the only time I have ever heard of the Seine Pogrom (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article325745.ece) of 1961.

West Coast
9th Nov 2005, 07:12
"French Intifada, what a load of bollox"

What are we up to, 12 or so days of this? Spread from one town to over two hundred. If I remember correctly its spilled over the border as well. To this you reply bollox. Comparison of data would fall on my side given your expansive reply. Google fail you?
Netherlands isn't that far. Given the seeds of trouble shown there you may want to exercise caution.


"aggrevation between Villepin and Sarkozy"

I do agree with you here on the subplot to the whole thing. Voters get to see contrasting styles in action before thay vote in a few years.

Gramps
Did I miss you? No, I think I scored a hit.
Now that I know you're safe, back to fire for effect.

"but you could fancy what enormous benefit extremist could get from any police blunder and "shoot to kill" policy"

I think the extremists will have to turn recruits away after this current episode is over.

I will say I understand why so many questions post Katrina by Euro's almost in disbelief about the structure of the US goverment. The reason I say this is because I was amazed that Chirac had to be the one to authorize curfews and other measures. These would have been taken care of at a much more local level in the US.

Yorks.ppl
9th Nov 2005, 07:50
We're public guardians bold yet wary
And of ourselves we take good care
To risk our precious lives we're chary
When danger threatens we're not there
But when we see a helpless woman
Or little boys who do no harm…
We run them in, we run them in
We run them in, we run them in
To show them we're the bold gendarmes

When young men like to make a riot
And punch each other’s heads at night
We are disposed to keep it quiet
Provided that they make it right
But if they do not seem to see it
Or give to us our proper alms…
We run them in, we run them in
We run them in, we run them in
To show them we're the bold gendarmes

Sometimes our duty’s extramural
Then little butterflies we chase
We like to gambol in things rural
Commune with nature face to face
But when we go back to our duties
Refreshed by Nature’s holy charms…
We run them in, we run them in
We run them in, we run them in
To show them we're the bold gendarmes



A song from many years ago:E

Capt.KAOS
9th Nov 2005, 10:07
WC, many are trying to pull the riots into a religious conflict. I don't think it is, in my opinion it's all about adolescence, unemployment, boredom, machoism and gang/tribal behaviour against the establishment.

Although one can never the guarantee that it won't happen in our country, personally I believe it won't, simply because we don't have these typical French banlieus with hundred of thousands unemployed juveniles. Besides it has been proven that our country did react on Van Gogh's death with constraint.

With the current globalisation, internet, mobile phones one cannot deny that riots like in France will be inevitability on a larger scale than ever and the current war on terror will emphasize the "us against them" mentality.

Anywayz, seems the curfew did had impact on the riots, all now we have to wait for is a prolongued period of rain.

Grandpa
9th Nov 2005, 10:18
If someone should have practiced restraint, its this one, because spreading false news could only make the situation worse.

Which is the evident dream of some people here...........

Curious Pax
9th Nov 2005, 11:33
Is it just me, or is this a carbon copy of the riots in the UK around 1981? Disaffected youth, poor areas, perceived police treatment. Religion didn't come into it then and I don't believe it does here.

Davaar
9th Nov 2005, 11:56
Eh bien
___________________
Which is the evident dream of some people here...........
___________________
as they say in France, "Qui s'excuse, s'accuse".

Stafford
9th Nov 2005, 12:07
Ahhh Schadenfreude bliss !

Grandpa. methinks thou protesteth too much, and too often. Come to think of it, that's what the disaffected youths are doing all across France now, with a small infection in Belgium and Germany.

We in the UK have a different situation in that our ethnic minorities seem to despise each other even more than they despise us. The French disease in this case is weakness and indecision in the face of outright blackmail but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

tony draper
9th Nov 2005, 12:07
Nations within nations, that been the aim for the last twenty years or so.

Paterbrat
9th Nov 2005, 12:10
Personal feelings expressed yesterday were that the rioting would begin to die down; when rage explodes it tends to go overboard. There is inevitably a reaction at some stage no matter how restrained the other party(ies) have been. The French public themselves will by now no matter how restrained will be getting very pissed off at the mayhem being carried out in their country, no matter by whom. It is not a majority carrying out the anarchy. Whether is is disaffected 'youth' 'criminal elements' 'gangs' or an underclass of Muslim N African youth is immaterial??? ( personaly still feel that there is a link)

What we are told now that the 'only 500' vehicles ablaze last night is a de-escalation. Holy cow how many have they torched??

One does hope that sense will prevail and calm will return to France. No matter how much 'bashing' goes on on Pprune I cannot help but feel that everyone here has been sypathetic to the unfortunate happening and hope that an end to madness is in sight. Many including I have a great soft spot for France Paris and many other aspect of that place...even if we don't like the French much. JOKE JOKE. That Grandpa was just to stir you up.

Seriously hope that this is now calming down and will be resolved.

Farrell
9th Nov 2005, 12:53
Paterbrat. As of yesterday:

One man killed
5,873 cars torched
1,500 people arrested
17 people sentenced
120 police and firefighters injured

airship
9th Nov 2005, 13:03
I will say I understand why so many questions post Katrina by Euro's almost in disbelief about the structure of the US goverment. The reason I say this is because I was amazed that Chirac had to be the one to authorize curfews and other measures. These would have been taken care of at a much more local level in the US. WC, I'm sure that even Dollar$ (sorry, I mean't to say Americans ;) ), would be surprised if the town's sheriff dept. had the authority to declare a curfew?! France isn't a huge country which you will be aware of (I forget how many times it will fit into Texas, please remind us...), so it can hardly be surprising if such drastic measures should come from the national (US state level equivalent) instead of local level. Drastic, because curfews are an extraordinary infringement of civil liberties in peacetime, but you're to be excused if you've forgotten what they were post 9/11. :(

One can only shudderingly imagine the results, had France been positively inspired by what might have happened in the US under similar circumstances. By the 12th night, in order to make it easier for poorly-equipped (non-NVG) French gendarmes, they'd have surely resorted to illuminating the banlieus with white phosphorous munitions...burn baby, burn eh?! :}

TheFlyingSquirrel
9th Nov 2005, 13:13
I'm glad France is getting a kicking - they treat every one crap and now it's their turn - what goes around comes around ! Voila !

ORAC
9th Nov 2005, 13:22
I believe the cars provide more than enough illumination. Perhaps you might speak on the "Seine Pogrom" of 1961 that I link to above, Airship, and explain what investigations and trials subsequently took place?

"On 17 October 1961, Paris police, led by a former Vichy minister, Maurice Papon, killed up to 300 protesting Algerians. Some were hurled, still alive, into the Seine....Some 50 people were clubbed to death in the courtyard of the Paris police headquarters, according to the testimony of a number of shocked policemen.....After the massacre, dozens of bodies were taken from the Seine as far downriver as Rouen."

Ah! Paris in the 60s......

MikeJeff
9th Nov 2005, 13:40
I reckon the French play too much Grand Theft Auto! :E

Grandpa
9th Nov 2005, 13:45
Eric Abidal (from La Duchère - Lyon ): "The rope was very tightened., it was broken.. Where I lived there was a supermarket. They never hired anybody from our "cité".
This isn't only a teen problem, grown up too are fired. It's a general discontent."
Florent Malouda (from Lyon): "People from the "cités" are desperate."
Lilian Thuram (he works now for "Haut Commissariat à l'Integration"): " I too grew up in suburb. When someone said:"You have to clean it with Kärscher" i understood I was aimed to. One told me: "You scum!"....and I was only wanting to find work. Maybe Sarko didn't catch this subtlety. Violence is never without cause. Strictness OK! but before you had to integrate people with work. Tough rebels react with agression. I'm sad for them. Often the youngs take soccer players as idols.
OK but you need others."
(all three from French soccer team).

Farrell "yesterday" looks rather like the sum of events since 15 days. Forgot the two teens burnt in electricity transformer while fleeing from police.
In fact TWO people died after being attacked either for stealing or afterbeung provoked and beateb.

airship
9th Nov 2005, 13:59
ORAC, every country has "classified information". Modern democracies these days also have "freedom of information". I'm not sure whether it is the information, the government or the citizens who are being protected. Perhaps time will tell? What else can I say?! At the time, I was more than a mere twinkling in my dad's eye, but I was still peeing and shitting myself... :O

Ozzy
9th Nov 2005, 15:06
French Intifada, what a load of bollox... I have just finished watching and listening to video footage of some of the rioting in France. The rioters are screaming "allah ackbar" as they torch businesses and vehicles....

Ozzy

airship
9th Nov 2005, 15:15
Do post the links Ozzy. Video with sound effects no less...?! :uhoh:

Davaar
9th Nov 2005, 16:17
But surely, Ozzy, shouting "Allah Akhbar!" with an ecumenical inflection?

West Coast
9th Nov 2005, 18:07
Kaos
I'm sure if I asked the average man on the computer in France he wouldn't have predicted the scope of the events. Possibly that it happened, but not to the extent and the sticking power it has shown. Its the undercurrents you have to watch out for. Those aren't always visible. I hope you're right, but not willing to bet a whole bunch of money on it. The seeds have been sown in the Netherlands, you can't intelligently dismiss it. How the unhappy campers are dealt with will determine if the same happens or it simply simmers with an occasional manifesto planted in someone's chest.

Airship
France also ISN'T that small a country that power should rest solely within Paris. Same argument made because of the population of France, which is sizable.

"Drastic, because curfews are an infringement of civil liberties in peacetime"

Extraordinary situations require extraordinary responses. Too bad local commanders couldn't have acted earlier to quell this violence. Do you not have politicians at a lower level that could correctly concluded the same measures were necessary or is Chirac simply the brain trust of France and all providence lies with him?

"(non-NVG)"

Having used goggles extensively, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be wearing them in an urban setting with lots of things burning along with all the other illum a city provides. That's just me, perhaps the French police think otherwise, or simply you do.

ORAC
9th Nov 2005, 20:48
BBC: France to deport foreign rioters

Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered the expulsion of all foreigners convicted of taking part in the riots that have swept France for 13 nights. He told parliament 120 foreigners had been found guilty of involvement and would be deported without delay......

Mr Sarkozy told MPs that non-French nationals - "not all of whom are here illegally" - had been convicted of taking part in the attacks. "I have asked the prefects to deport them from our national territory without delay, including those who have a residency visa," he said.....

West Coast
9th Nov 2005, 21:43
If convicted, then it sounds like a fair move.

arcniz
10th Nov 2005, 00:45
France - 'Gaul' is the name I prefer - has had a strong sence of itself for several thousand years now. Back when the Caesars were trying to impose some civil order, it was they, the Gauls, who threw sticks in the spokes of the Roman wagons. Julius, himself, gave them high points for spirit and stubbornness.

Now, only a hundred generations later, the Gauls are vexed by earnest frustrated youngsters they have nurtured, trained, and semi-Gallicised.

What should they expect?

These youngsters who are torching Hondas and Seats, Citroens and the occasional Chevvy, are the future of France. They have learned the lessons, got the idea, absorbed the culture and taken up residence. Whether by force or by nurture, they will be in charge, to some extent, in the inexorable future.

What is really burning in the streets is the myth of French imperturbability and immutability.

Soon France will be turning much more beige than the palliid iconic aristocracy hanging in the Louvre. It will be a robust beige that can revitalize the stodgy, inbred and churlish reactionaries who are less than forthcoming about the imperative need for sharing Gallia with their colonial slaves. And it will be a transcultural beige that opens a world of opportunities to those of the French who can adapt, engage, and pursue the 21st revision of the gloire Francaise.

Davaar
10th Nov 2005, 01:45
Several above speculate on the legal technicality if any of having the French army take arms against a large part of the French populace.

Who else can the French army ever fight now? Can it be any Arab or Middle Eastern Country, France now having 6,000,000 of the enemy's co-religionists and co-racials right in the midst? It's not as if France has to import its oil, is it? From, can it be?, the Middle East.

So far I am looking at an "offensive" war, but what of the other, the traditional war "a outrance", the defensive war, the war of National survival? I mean, of course, when someone actually does have weapons of mass destruction, and the will to use them against France. Saladin XXV, for example.

Arcniz is happy with:
_________________________
the 21st revision of the gloire Francaise.
_________________________

Mon cher arcniz, can you be sure?

The mere 157,000 Japanese on Honolulu in 1941 were of immense help to Japan in WW2, as were the Quisling Fifth Columnists in Norway in the same fixture.

Howsa wee boy, Achmed? We're off to get some oil, just like (Aaaaiiiieeee! George W Nameless!). Collect your scimitar from beeg Mo', the marechal de logis.

Britain, of course, will be Okay, its revised order of battle numbering the Royal Multicultural Greys; the Queen's Own Multicultural Borderers; the Multicultural Watch, proudly swinging to the Desert Song and flaunting its kilt of the bumbee tartan; The Multicultural Guards; the Multicultural Rangers; the Royal Rifle Brigade (the Queen's Loyal Multicultural Regiment); the old First of Foot itself, Right of the Line, Pride of the British Army and Pontius' Pilate's Bodyguard, The Royal Multiculturals (formerly the Garde Ecossaise of great French Kings); the elite cavalry, the Royal Multicultural Dragoons, Royal Multicultural Lancers, the Multicultural Hussars, and the Household Multiculturals, pacing majestically up the Mall from Buck House on their Attack Dromedaries, gaily (the Multisexual Multicultural Brigade) caparisoned.

We can all be sure of ourselves now. It is mindful of another general, another war: "There stands Jackson, like a stone wall". Yup.

"Drake, 'e's in his 'ammock an' a thousand mile away,
unfortunately,
Slung atween the roundshot in Nombre Dios Bay,
An' dreamin' arl the time o' Plymouth Hoe."

Maybe just as well, actually.

maxalt
10th Nov 2005, 02:26
Well Grandpa, how do you feel now about your Muslim friends ripping up your country?

Told ya!!

:E

arcniz
10th Nov 2005, 03:26
Davaar says: The mere 157,000 Japanese on Honolulu in 1941 were of immense help to Japan in WW2

On behalf of many friends in Hawaii -- Jap, Isei, Nisei, Hawaiian, Haole, and otherwise, I take strong exception to this slur of yours on the aid and comfort you allege the local Japanese in Hawaii provided to the invaders of the Rising Sun. The local Yaps certainly didn't revolt or poison the water or even go out en masse to pee on Hotel street. For the most part, I think they were as frightened and insulted as the other residents. What do you think they did? Why do you accuse them so?

Then as now, Oahu was an open place, not a cipher, an acquiescent port of welcome to sailors and transients from around the world. Hickham wasn't concealed or concealable among the cane fields, nor was Pearl a secret out of view. It did not take that much spying to see nearly everything that was going on with the military at Oahu.

From my strolls on the same ridge in search of the sweet island truffles that grow sometimes among mulberry roots, I would reckon a single soul could find a perch on Tantalus Mountain from which to see just about everything happening in the harbour and up the pelvis of the western side central valley to Hickham and beyond. That view is all it would have taken to set the whole plan in detail. The same single viewer at that vantage could later have watched the Japanese light bombers making the sharp left to slide northward thru the Huli-Huli pass onto the field at Hickam, even as their fellows rounded the south point to begin tearing up Pearl.

Perhaps you would care to qualify, withdraw, or attempt to substantiate your scurrilous claims regarding this event. I think you would soon be sushi if making those accusations in present-day Honolulu.

Davaar
10th Nov 2005, 05:27
I'll be happy to oblige.

My source is "The Second World War", by one of the most noted military commentators and theorists of the 20th century, Maj Gen J F C Fuller, Da Capo Press, NY, 1993, originally published 1948, ISBN 0-306-80506-5, at page 134, footnote 7, quoting Frank Knox, Secretary for the US Navy, viz: "There were 157,000 Japanese inhabitants on the Hawaiian Islands, and according to Colonel Knox, Secretary for the US Navy, 'the most effective Fifth Column work of the entire war was done at Hawaii with the possible exception of Norway'".

What else, unless you are very naive, would you expect? Are you very naive?

Whether I get carved for sushi or mushi or nushi or even tushi is quite irrelevant. Schoolboy level.

Grandpa
10th Nov 2005, 19:07
My Muslim friend told me:

These teens should be at home, instead of burning their neighbour's cars. They are stupid!
Once they burnt cars, schools, shops, factories, where will they find a job?
What were their parents doing?
They didn't educate their children! What a shame!

That's what my Muslim friend told me!
Ya!

Capt.KAOS
10th Nov 2005, 20:19
I'm sure if I asked the average man on the computer in France he wouldn't have predicted the scope of the events. I hope you're right, but not willing to bet a whole bunch of money on it. Funny, apparently an average man on the computer in San Diego can predict...:hmm:
Can you substantiate your predictions? Any solid facts?

Well Davaar, if you insist to bring in WW2, Knox's 5th column statement was purely propaganda and mass race exclusion, a few days after Pearl Harbor. The basis of Knox's statement was never made clear, and his official report on December 16 contained no reference to fifth column activities. Instead, it described espionage by Japanese consular officers and praised the Japanese Americans who had manned machine guns against the enemy. Nevertheless, his earlier comments to the press received widespread attention in major west coast newspapers, and nothing was promptly done at the highest levels of government to repudiate Knox's initial statement or publicly to affirm the loyalty of persons of Japanese descent. (Source: Nisei: The Quiet Americans - New York, William Morrow & Co., Inc., 1969, amonst others).

Davaar
10th Nov 2005, 20:37
I am not insisting on anything, Kapt. It was purely an illustration. I have no doubt authorities in profusion can be produced.

If you are telling me that the Japanese in Honolulu were not a Fifth Column, I do not believe it. I hope I do not have to split hairs by making it clear that I do not mean each and every one of them, but enough.

I believe you are American. If so, you probably have family in the US, but in any event you have friends.

If you chose to live in England, and were one day in a bar in a booth next to some senior British officers who were discussing an imminent attack on the US, which would you do:
(a) approach them immediately and tell them careless talk costs lives?
(b) nip round immediately to the American Embassy and demand to see the Military Attache?

You will remember that the US had virtually declared economic war on Japan five or six months before Pearl Harbor, so why should Japanese (forgive me if I do not run through half a dozen alternative names for graduations of Japaneseness) in Honolulu be reluctant to report whatever they could to their homeland?

Wouldn't you? You would not? Have I got that right?

That is the situation in France. A substantial part of their young and active population now owes its allegiance to an enemy. That does not bode well for France. For one thing its liberty to formulate a foreign policy is inhibited. For another, its power to defend itself is greatly prejudiced.

Capt.KAOS
10th Nov 2005, 21:28
Davaar, I would love to go into debate with you about the roots of WW2 in the Pacific, but not in this thread.

Personally I do not believe that the current situation in France is that the young Muslim population owes its allegiance to the enemy. All they want is liberte, egalite, fraternite and...opportunity...

tony draper
10th Nov 2005, 21:34
Hmmm,therein lies the rub, allegiance to the non corporeal can never be reasoned with.
:rolleyes:

West Coast
10th Nov 2005, 22:14
"Any solid facts?"
Its not a solid fact that the sun will rise tomorrow. It wasn't a solid fact that rioting would occur the night the two boys were electrocuted. Events happen, that I will predict. What and when along with the details of course not. Fire season is a fact of life where I live. We don't know the details of course until it happens, but we do know it will happen because the conditions are ripe. Its fire season in the Netherlands along with other parts of Europe.

Nope Kaos, time will tell. If I had asked you a few years ago about the degree of problems the Netherlands would have with its immigrants I doubt you would have predicted what happened.

"Funny, apparently an average man on the computer in San Diego can predict"

I can predict with confidence that the current flair up of violence will not be the last in western Europe. I also predict with confidence that your country will also have its share of strife. This prediction despite your belief that the socio-economic differences between France and the Netherlands provides some barrier to it.




"I would love to go into debate with you about the roots of WW2 in the Pacific"

I can only imagine who you would find as the aggressor.

Grandpa
10th Nov 2005, 22:26
The ennemy you spark about in your last paragraph.....Is it MacDo?

When this is cleared, could you develop the argument about foreign policy please?
Any link with French opposition to Iraq invasion?

Maple 01
10th Nov 2005, 23:06
Only so far as appeasing ‘the Muslim street’ doesn’t seem to pay any dividends at home. Sectarian violence on the streets of the UK could be 'excused' by the Gulf War, Those causing chaos in France have no such excuse – are they French firstly or not? If not perhaps it is time to move on

Davaar
10th Nov 2005, 23:48
You tell me, Grandpa, who is your enemy right now. Not I. I have not torched a single car in your streets. You must have noticed that. I am four thousand miles away. Who has? How many thousands by now?

As for the future, you have slashed your liberty ever to have a foreign policy that takes you into conflict with the [you insert the area] countries, no matter what the interests of France may be. Like getting oil, for example. You know, that bad naughty Halliburton oil that makes cars run, ships navigate, aircraft fly, Frenchmen eat.

France used to know the value of an enemy in the rear. That is why they had the Auld Alliance with Scotland. It was not that you liked us, nor as a matter of fact, that we liked you. For the same reason the English always wanted to subjugate Scotland.

That is why so many Scottish knights died on the French side at Poitiers and Agincourt, why the Scots foolishly provoked the disastrous Battle of Flodden, why Mary Queen of Scots lost her head, and why ultimately Scotland and England joined in the United Kingdom: it was to promote or prevent, depending on your outlook, a war while an enemy lurked in the rear. You tell us your present troubles are all due to poverty. You had better be right. I think you are wrong.

Now your enemy is not in the rear; he is in your own streets, in your own suburbs, closer than von Kluck ever got, and he is there by invitation. Your invitation.

As West Coast says, time will tell. Yes, it will. And when the disaster strikes, this blessing you have brought among you, reflect on what you have done. You wanted it. You worked for it. Now you have it. Go on the stage and take a bow.

Techman
11th Nov 2005, 00:01
Predict? Hmmm, what certainly was predictable was what this thread would become, and be used for.

Use the "F" word and the predictable ones will be flocking with their little shovels to have a dig.

Capt.KAOS
11th Nov 2005, 10:08
Davaar's constant use of anachronisms always makes me think of the Roman chariot driver sporting the Timex watch in Ben Hur...:p

Curious Pax
11th Nov 2005, 10:58
I say aqain - tell me the difference between the French riots and the British ones 24 years ago. They are for basically the same reasons, and are largely following the same patterns. In each case a poor underclass consisting of largely first and second generation immigrants are the ones with the problems,the only difference is that this time round it suits some people to demonise more Muslims, whereas last time religion didn't come into it. The fact that most poor recent immigrants to France are Muslim is a coincidence in this case.

Westie - care to elaborate on the fires in The Netherlands? All looks pretty calm from my window. As a (hopefully temporary) immigrant to The Netherlands twice now I can testify that whatever their public image the Dutch in general are not and have never been big fans of foreigners, as another JB poster said on another thread this week. You need to see any problems with foreigners here in that context. They love foreign tourists though!

Davaar
11th Nov 2005, 11:18
The Kaptain seeking inspiration
To ease his mental constipation,
Can’t tell, in yearning for catharsis,
Which hole in ground, and which his arse, is.

Paterbrat
11th Nov 2005, 11:35
Davaar the PC world that is being created is unfortunately seemingly unable to co-exist with simple common sense. There will of course be an outcry over this statement and it will be from predictable quarters, which could concievably illustrate a point which would have whistled over unseen, unheard, uncomprehended.

The thought of expulsion from the place which was so beastly it was fit only for burning and destruction should be thought provoking for those whose incendiary asperations might just be wondering at how well those skills will serve them where they might be headed.

Capt.KAOS
11th Nov 2005, 13:31
Very funny Davaar, it reminds me of my high school days :ok:

Paterbrat, cast your mind back to the pre-Iraq war days on this forum and tell me who used his common sense and who didn't....

Paterbrat
11th Nov 2005, 15:13
Errrrrrrrrrrrrr ?????????????? Saddam.:p

West Coast
11th Nov 2005, 16:46
"Westie - care to elaborate on the fires in The Netherlands? All looks pretty calm from my window"

Looks calm today.

Don't speak out on radical Islam. Might end up with a note sent home (in your chest) or with police protection. You said it yourself, the Dutch are becoming less tolerant towards foreigners. All the ingredients are coming together. Loose immigration policies will come back to haunt the Netherlands. Perhaps the powder keg isn't as large as that in France. Perhaps the reasons may be different (disenfranchised youth vs ideology) but the Dutch have set themselves up. All that is needed is a large enough spark.

Grandpa
11th Nov 2005, 16:58
....but itisn't because you are far away......

With a click of fingers one finance tycoon from the antipodes can send people in an world of nightmare, unemployment, starvation, .......

With your permission, 'free market" for finance is OUR worst ennemy.................

El Grifo
11th Nov 2005, 17:35
I say aqain - tell me the difference between the French riots and the British ones 24 years ago. They are for basically the same reasons, and are largely following the same patterns. In each case a poor underclass consisting of largely first and second generation immigrants are the ones with the problems,the only difference is that this time round it suits some people to demonise more Muslims, whereas last time religion didn't come into it. The fact that most poor recent immigrants to France are Muslim is a coincidence in this case.

Correct me if I am wrong Curious, But I am struggling to recall the news footage where the rampaging mobs in Britain were heard to exclaim :-

" The Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is great" or similar !!





:suspect: :{ :suspect:

newarksmells
11th Nov 2005, 17:55
The big difference bewteen the riots in France and the U.K is the U.K riots were mainly race based...black vs white. Come to thinkof it, the riots in France are the same.

I was reading an excerpt from a Middle East newspaper and it mentioned that after France forbid the wearing of Muslim head dresses in schools along with the poverty and unemployment, the Muslim French Youths were just waiting for a chance to explode at the first opportunity due to their dis-enfranchisement and the hopelessness fo their situation in France.

That's their story. What's the "official" French version of the cause of the rioting?

Newarksmells

Clarence Oveur
11th Nov 2005, 18:07
One could almost get the impression that some here wants, or perhaps more accurately, hopes, that the riots are motivated by Islam, that they will escalate, that they will spread. Just so their petty fears and dislikes can be confirmed.

I sometimes wonder if OBL and his band of merry men, are the ones most intent on creating a clash/war of civilizations.

Davaar
11th Nov 2005, 18:10
Yes Grandpa:
_______________
....but it isn't because you are far away......
_______________

That is true. It is because I am not full of mindless hate, and because, however failingly, I try to follow Christ's way. I am a "variant" Christian, in that I take it as my faith for this world, and give little thought to the next.

Dr draper keeps telling us that at Death, all ends. I say, No, all is in suspense until the Great Day of Judgment. Now tell me, Grandpa, what practical difference is there between these two views? Is there any for, say, the next few billion years?

The one difference is that I have a code to follow now, although I suspect Dr draper follows much the same code, so why fight? I do not ask you or him nominally to accept it. That is up to you. I am quite easy. I really am. I lose no sleep over it. I do not say that if you do not accept it I shall blow you up, you and your grand-daughter in the street. Your friends say that, and they do it.

It has, as we international financiers would put it, bugger-all to do with all that seems to fill your every waking moment with resentment.

You lead such an unhappy life. I have never seen a happy post from you. Nothing but venom and bile.

I do not want floods of multiculturalism.

Having said that, I have a string of Third World clients who, quite frankly, owe a great deal to me. They would have been slung out but for me. That is the simple fact. They were damned lucky to stumble into my office. One is out of jail because of me. He did not like it when he was in, and he sure is glad to be out. He has no money, but he sends me a card on Father's Day. I find it very touching.

I know, though, that we, like you, one day will have a disaster here because there is a limit to the numbers of aliens whom we can absorb. We are lucky, in that we have a large country, and so we can escape the immediate presence of those who are different. But how many can we absorb? How many can you? You have 6,000,000? Should it be 12,000,000? Or 20,000,000? Or maybe 150,000,000? Why not? Besides, let in enough, and they will make it 150,000,000. What French Canada used to call the revanche du berceau. You take them in, and the "developing" (What an irony!) world will produce them. Ad infinitum.

I am not light-hearted about this. I am not daily engaged in froth and bubbles about George W Bush, or Marshal Petain, or Genghis Khan (apologies to Kapt.KAOS for what he would call an anachronism. Do you know what he meant by that? Puzzled me.)

You and those like you have killed or soon will kill my world, or as the French version of the Canadian National Anthem goes, "Terre de nos aieux".

But much worse, the world of my child.

El Grifo
11th Nov 2005, 18:12
Ooooh - - - Spooky dark thoughts Clarence.

Its about that time of day now. Head to the fridge and crack open a bottle. You will feel all the better for it - - - trust me !!!!!!


:ok: :cool: :ok:

Curious Pax
11th Nov 2005, 18:22
Grif: my view is that it is a difference in culture regarding what one likes to shout when in a frenzy.

Westie: one murder, abhorrent as it was, does not indicate an escalation necessarily in the natives v Islam battle. One guy who (from my understanding of it) was pretty abusive to Islam, combined with one religious nutter who got the hump, is a bit tenuous for suggesting jihad has all but broken out on the streets of Amsterdam. And just in case there is any doubt I'm not for a moment suggesting that van Gogh deserved to be on the receiving end of any violence whatsoever. I didn't say that the Dutch are becoming less tolerant of foreigners, I said that in my experience (going back to the early 90s) they have never been very tolerant. I'd be interested to hear Falps take on the situation however.

Newark: my take on the French situation is that it is the poverty that is the big driver, with race an added trigger that winds them up even more. Religion is coincidental. I think you interpret too much organisation into what has gone on. I have read in more than one place that burning cars in French cities at the weekend is just the French youth's equivalent to the British youth's habit of 20 pints and a fight at the taxi rank on a Saturday night!

newarksmells
11th Nov 2005, 19:14
I'm not reading anything into it. I'm reporting what some of the middle eastern newspapers are reporting.

What doesn't help however is France's stubborn behaviour to the display of any religous artifacts in their schools. I'm sure some people don't give a damn either way (count me in that group) but others find it deeply offensive.

There usually is no single reason for a riot. Detroit wins the Stanley Cup and they riot and they lose the Stanley Cup and they riot. Like Westy said, the L.A riots were initially caused by the Rodney King case and many saw it as a cause to not only riot, but loot and pillage too.

I'm sure poverty is a large factor here, but never underestimate the fanaticism of some religous zealots to do evil in the name of their xxxx (fill in their diety) at every opportunity they can get.

Newarksmells

Clarence Oveur
11th Nov 2005, 19:19
Grifo,

It was merely an observation based on this and many other threads here.

It is clearly not only Islamic extremists who are determined to use Islam as a vehicle for their agenda.

There has been many a muttering of dubious construct to support opinions here. Perhaps this sort of reverse-engineering is inevitable when one's prime is only to be found in the rearview mirror.

G-CPTN
11th Nov 2005, 23:47
>There usually is no single reason for a riot. Detroit wins the Stanley Cup and they riot and they lose the Stanley Cup and they riot. Like Westy said, the L.A riots were initially caused by the Rodney King case and many saw it as a cause to not only riot, but loot and pillage too.

**********************************
Newark, you make an interesting observation. Day-to-day it would be difficult to instigate spontaneous rioting, but as soon as there is the slightest excuse, the unruly element can emerge and combine. Try throwing petrol bombs on your own or smashing windows and looting and you'll soon be tracked-down and caught. Once dozens are offending the chances of detection become slender so you might as well join in. It only takes a FEELING that something has happened to raise feelings. Consider the case(s) of reports of paedophiles loose in a region and you'll soon see the vigilantes assemble . . .

West Coast
12th Nov 2005, 04:56
"Westie: one murder, abhorrent as it was, does not indicate an escalation necessarily in the natives v Islam battle"

Two accidental deaths was the spark that lit the powder keg in France. The escalation "in the natives v Islam battle" is laying its groundwork. The stabbing or whatever it is will be the spark that sets it off.

Paterbrat
12th Nov 2005, 12:55
The spark that sets it off? I was, perhaps under the mistaken impression, that it has been burning for about twelve straight days.

There will by this time have been enough scrutiny by the 'natives' on the scene to judge for themselves just who are pricipaly involved, how they feel about it, and should the authorities not be seen to be controlling it, doing something themselves about it.

Despite exactly who or what groups are involved a reaction and backlash will be by now building up. It's release may well have far reaching consequences for all involved.

Grandpa
12th Nov 2005, 13:55
That's very pleasant!

What about your wife presence?

Farrell
12th Nov 2005, 14:53
Cheap shot Grandpa

airship
12th Nov 2005, 15:24
...and should the authorities not be seen to be controlling it, doing something themselves about it. Now, now Paterbrat, that sounds rather like an incitement to commit seriously illegal acts... :confused:

Anyway, it would appear that Mr. Sarkozy's ministry has somewhat belatedly swung into top gear this week. With multiple arrests of those using chat, blogs and their mobile phones (SMS and videos) to "incite others...". :uhoh: These are measures available to him and include the "control of media...".

Having said that, the French media don't appear to have been at all restrained in their reporting of events. Having offered repeated opportunities for those who've been throwing molotov cocktails about the place, the chance to say "Hey, that was the car / bus / shop / school I "did"! :rolleyes:

The exception that proves the general rule of an unfettered French media may be this one:

The timeline.

Monday 7th November: A camera team from France 2 (the French BBC) come across French police engaged in what I can only describe as being an event à la Rodney King.

Thursday 10th November (1): This evening, France 2 have programmed a "special debate" on the rioting directly after the evening news, with Mr. Nicolas Sarkozy, the French Interior Minister, as featured guest. This will be followed by the usual "Envoyé Spéciale" (Panorama equivalent?) for a Thursday evening, who have also devoted their entire content to the rioting. A whole 3 hours or so of programming devoted to the current events.

Thursday 10th November (2): In their primetime news at 8pm, France 2 finally (?) shows the video captured on the previous Monday. It is a very violent and shocking demonstration of policing gone haywire (at least in France, these sorts of images were hitherto only associated with 3rd World regimes or perhaps the USA :( ) However, they also show the purported victim "little worse for wear", back on the street with his mates just 48 hours after the "violent beatings" at the hands (and boots) of French police.

Thursday 10th November (3): In the "special debate" following the evening news, Mr. Sarkozy responds to the video with words to the effect that: "I (only) learned of these events at 10pm yesterday (2 days afterwards). By 7am this morning, the police involved had been arrested, an inquiry is ongoing."

Friday 11th November: The event is widely reported in the French media, less so elsewhere. I did manage to find this report on CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/10/france.riots/index.html) though. But noone appears to have got hold of the video. :confused:

Saturday 12th November: The website of France 2 (http://jt.france2.fr/20h/), which usually holds the complete news archives of all the evening news (including videos) from the previous week, is mysteriously missing the opportunity to review Thursday 10th November's 20H news programme. The previous Wednesday is there, as is the following Friday... :uhoh:

But it's probably all for the best. The hardened rioters (luckily for everyone) on that particular Thursday evening were probably already going about their business by the time the evening news was broadcast. And Mr. Sarkozy was able to appear to be very reasonable (and firm) with regard to events: "Isolated incidents of police abuse will not be tolerated". One is glad that there is finally someone in the French administration who is willing to stand up and use "plain speak". One is less inclined to believe that these are indeed such "isolated incidents". And one remains to be convinced that Mr. Sarkozy's statement that forthwith, police will have to address everyone with "vous" instead of "tu" is going to alter matters much... :}

On the whole (and I never thought I would come to this conclusion), Mr. Sarkozy has acquitted himself very well. Unfortunetly, he finds himself in the wrong party. Once you uncover the outer-wrapping, the trappings of someone who is indeed ambitious of high office but puts in a considerable effort, he reveals himself...as a Socialist in the best sense of the term, and no less! :ok:

PS. Those who would love to see France "consummed" by Muslim insurgents or others should move on: your comments bear little relevance, and you betray your dark side... :sad:

Paterbrat
12th Nov 2005, 15:44
Quote'...an incitement to commit seriously illegals acts.' I guess the acts already being committed are illegal and no doubt some by illegals. That they are multiple in both case also undisputable, as to my incitement I would venture not, I merely predict what may well be coming.

I did detect a slight tongue in cheek there anyway Airship.

That tempers, patience and any good will by the gendarmerie have reached stretching point is hardly surprising and it would seem that in appearing a little while later back on the streets, and prowl would indicate that the French? Rodney was definitely not subjected to anything worse than he may well have got from a neighborhood brawl and apparently less debilitating than those meted out by young thugs here. Beatings in the 3rd world often end in death a fiery end or decapitation and I have witnessed them all unfortunately.

It is perhaps a possible a small indication of relief that so few in the way of serious caualties has occurred to date.

airship
12th Nov 2005, 16:19
I did detect a slight tongue in cheek there anyway Airship. That may be true. But heaven forbid that you exercise the same unrestraint from French soil... :E

It is perhaps a possible a small indication of relief that so few in the way of serious caualties has occurred to date. But in no way thanks to those who would use these events to further their own interests, whether they be those of Muslim extremists or vengeful Americans (or others).

The French will be judged in whether or not this most recent expression of "popular unrest" is addressed in all its' facets in the aftermath, or whether it is merely buried, until the next time.

PS. I am not so blindingly confident in French justice that I forget that 40 or so years ago, many (Algerians and others) apparently disappeared from bridges over the Seine, without so much as a whimper from the press (local or otherwise) of the day. One assumes that some things have changed since those days. But in case you don't hear from me next week, well, expect the worst. (BTW, it would be the Var for me, it's closer... :uhoh: )

Davaar
12th Nov 2005, 17:04
Yes, Paterbrat, we must all be very tolerant of boys will be boys, chuckle, chuckle, but those who force us into unsought situations do not permit self-defence. That would be badness or incitement to badness, and is a factor absent in their equation.

Last evening I was out on peaceful affairs. I had to stop at traffic lights, at which were three different engaged in horseplay. When I stopped, I became the instant focus of the horseplay. If they had been more in number, enough to make a swarm, one might have said "swarming". I was not there long, but they were at the stage of "touching" the car, and one started playing around at the gas tank door. I urged him to Go Off, Go Off, which took his attention until the light changed and then I took off.

I was unarmed, of course, unarmed that is save for a weapon that weighs give or take two tons, has eight cylinders and 4.6 litres. When I aim it, it takes some stopping. I have never before in seventy years had that experience. Vive le multiculturalisme.

Naturally, one would not think of acquiring a pea-shooter. Not yet.

tony draper
12th Nov 2005, 17:10
Hmmm, just thinking, in this age where everything is sponsored,soap operas news,sporting events ect, perhaps the manufacturors of motor vehicles, tear gas shop window glass and such could sponsor riots.
A new form of conspicuous consumption,burn down your neigbourhood the taxpayer will buy you another.
Time they brung out the Tanks methinks.



A new war is coming betwixt the "Haves" and the "Have nots but hope to have in the next world"
:cool:
Me I'm on the side of the haves, give it to the have nots, and they'll just burn the fecker.
:uhoh:

airship
12th Nov 2005, 17:58
Oh Davaar, but your flowery interludes hardly mask the imperatives that lie just beneath and clamour at one's door, snarling teeth and jaws at the wide...

In some non-threatening form, they remind me of this case, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4399336.stm) where the opening statements took 6 months. By which time, everyone had quite forgotten why they were there in the 1st place...

There is a supreme court (by all accounts, according to one's beliefs), and there are are also supreme courts (south of the borderline anyway). In the latter, one endeavours to always demonstrate one's equanimity in diverse situations. Admission is both extremely challenging and rare. Otherwise, one is left with the supreme court. And in that particular court, as far as I know, everyone, regardless of one's qualifications or prior experience, become merely passive attendees... :ok:

Techman
12th Nov 2005, 18:22
"flowery interludes"? Don't know about you, but I am always reminded of Grampa Simpson when I see those "flowery interludes".

airship
12th Nov 2005, 19:43
Well, it's raining here in the S. of France. That should have some effect... :uhoh:

tony draper
12th Nov 2005, 19:50
Whats the scragged car total now? insurance companies must have long faces, or would your vehicle being deliberatly torched be classed as a act of God or summat?
Hmmm, or in this case, a act for God.
They probably have a get out clause, or premiums are going to rocket.
:uhoh:

Grandpa
12th Nov 2005, 20:01
They announced to day that some police units near paris are now practicing "minimum level of activity", angry as they are about their colleague in jail......

Maybe next is a kind of strike.....and why not fraternising with young rioters?

airship
12th Nov 2005, 20:08
Drapes, according to announcements made here by the insurance companies:

The overall cost to insurers of recent events has reached some €200 million. About 10% of that concerns burned vehicles. And since most of those affected could only afford the most basic insurance, excluding fire risks...French insurers have taken the unprecedented step of announcing that they will nevertheless accept claims for burned out cars even from those who did not have the necessary cover. That must be some form of (socialist) marketing exercise. :confused: But is very good news for many affected... :ok:

Grandpa, in the past, police actions have often been used as a "beau commissaire" to excuse failures in other domains. I hope that period is drawing to a close now that Sarko is here. Only time will tell, but IF the opportunity or necessity for a "government of National unity" ever comes about (it happened for the Germans recently after all), I would welcome a government with Lionel Jospin as PM, Sarko in his present capacity... :ok:

Looking at the downpour, the thunder etc., no, I don't believe that there will be much rioting going on down here tonight...

Grandpa
12th Nov 2005, 22:07
On which side is Zeus?

Davaar
13th Nov 2005, 02:20
Too flowery? Okay; Not flowery:

A.
1. France has a population of 60,000,000;
2. 6,000,000 of them are alien in the first, second or third generation;
3. The 6,000,000 belong to a disciplined religion;
4. The 6,000,000 have not assimilated into Frenchdom;
5. The 6,000,000 live in compact separated ghettos/slums/high-rise concentrations and are rapidly growing even more in numbers;
6. The 6,000,000, especially the second generation are poorly paid, largely unemployed;
7. The organised religious movement overseas centres of the 6,000,000 are hostile to France, Europe, and the West;
8. The 6,000,000 are there by invitation;
9. The 6,000,000 have customs alien and offensive to the 54,000,000;
10.The bulk of the 54,000,000 hate having the 6,000,000 around, and given the chance do not employ them.

B.
1. Such situations have never worked peacefully. There was Nebuchadnezzar and the Israelites, and he got Daniel and his mates (too anachronistic for you, Kapt?); there was Pharoah, and he got the plagues and Moses; the Romans got a whole bunch, and eventually the Vandals and the Huns upset their game; there was Henri IV, and he got the Huguenots (mind you, they were French too); The English have the Irish or the Irish have the English, look at it as you will; the Germans had the Jews or the Jews had the Germans; the Turks had the Armenians; the French (we keep coming back to them) had that heretic lot, the Cathares, and solved that problem by killing them all; Saddam had the Kurds; the Moslems in Kashmir had the Hindus; and so on. Perhaps I am too flowery by now.

C.
Knowing all this, Wise Men in France, and Britain, and Germany, and the Netherlands dreamed up a new Religion, called multiculturalism, and invited that lot in. Come on, guys! All of you! Yep! Bring the curry.

D.
Airship sneers that I do not have all the cures for “the imperatives that ..... clamour at one's door, snarling teeth and jaws ....”.

He is right. That is why I am against creating the problem. Or is he just laughing? Ho! Ho! Ho!? Thinks there is no problem?

For the answers he should go to the people who have all the answers. Start with Grandpa. He knows everything, and for years now has been slanging the American president for getting things wrong. Yes, if I were you, airship, I’d go to Grandpa.

E.
Who is to blame?
The young rioters are to blame, of course, but they are victims as well as offenders, born to an alien estate, unwelcome and knowing it. They are the "proximate cause" the ones who pull the trigger.
Those who brought them in are to blame. The smug, arrogant, know-it-all unknowing, people of intellectual mush who have destroyed civilisation. They are the "sine qua non", who bought the gun, bought the ammunition, loaded the magazine, and gave the gun to alienated youth (you do understand I am being metaphorical here?).
Don't suggest that I want the war. They have brought the war.