Geoff a happy man....

[Sonny Hammond]

Not really surprising I suppose but the LH EBA got up.

[bonvol]

Yep, just goes to show you some dogs can be kicked and they will still lick you and beg for more kicks.

[speedbirdhouse]

No wonder he calls you lot "softcox".........

[polemic]

damn it and to think I was waiting to see that leadership stuff against management.

[RaTa]

Gentlemen get a grip......do you really think Geoff gives a damn which way the pilots voted?
His plans were already made and whatever LH pilots voted for, would not change them one bit.
Now what is the "ARG" going to do????? It would seem the rug has been pulled from under them with a rejection of their policies! No gloating intended.

[Simon Templar]

How much if any lube did he use.
I pretty damn sure there was no foreplay
The Viagra Driven Dwarf wins again.
Keep them dawgies movin..Rawhide!!

[Veruka Salt]

I work with idiots.

[Big Jan]

Gee don't these Qantas guy's realise that they are dragging down the conditions for everyone in this country.what a bunch of prostitutes.:rolleyes:

[slim]

You do indeed work with idiots Veruka. Why the hell would you overwhelmingly vote in the ARG then vote yes to an EBA which goes against the ARG's stated EBA position? Talk about cutting the ARG off at the knees. Stupid and softcoxs!

[speedbirdhouse]

"cutting the ARG off at the knees."

More like shot them in the head................weird:}

[Mr McGoo]

The ARG got up in the union elections primarily as a protest vote against the President's Leadership and the rose coloured glasses he wears.

Given that this EBA is nearly 12 months late and therefore negotiations for the next one are due to start pretty much straight away, the ARG will get their chance to show their stuff soon enough. The feeling amongst the yes voters is that our interests would be better served by keeping our powder dry in this EBA and give the ARG a shot a negotiating a better EBA from a clean sheet of paper next time around. We have not abandonded them.

[Transition Layer]

Ah but Mr McGoo, by then it will be too late for those S/Os shipped off to Singapore under a sub-standard deal. Try telling the blokes who will be leaving their missus and kids behind that you haven't abandoned them either :mad:

Dixon is right, the majority of mainline pilots are softc0cks - 58% to be precise.

TL

[Keg]

Keep the powder dry McGoo? If you weren't prepared to use it on THIS EBA then you're kidding yourself if you think you'll EVER use it! What do they have to put in front of you before you'll think about using it? What hope do the ARG have next time around considering what we've just rolled over on! :yuk:

That 'clean sheet' you think you've given the ARG for next time is most definately not 'clean'. It's stained now and has the indelible ink of a weak pilot group all over it. All it needs is for a little bit of 'pressure' and the true colours will shine through! :mad: :{

Keg. 'No' voter and proud of it.

PS: As time goes on, those who claim they voted 'no' will amount to a lot more than 625! It's probably that way already! :suspect: :ouch:

[QFinsider]

Softcocks...

Wait until the IR reforms make any action almost impossible. Dixon will act with impunity exactly as Howard intends.

We are finished as a group. The J* rollout will be finished and there is nothing we can do, the next EBA is a foregone conclusion, the window is closed shut. This was the watershed you tool Mcgoo

I'm disgusted in my colleagues, short sighted self absorbed and naive...all for a few bits of mirror and some beads.

For the record NO

[Ronnie Honker]

It's game over.
Saying that we'll wait for the next EBA is like saying "I'll start my diet next month" - come next month it's XMAS and New Year's Eve, then Aunt Mabel's Birthday in January.....

There will always be a "justification" for NOT doing it NEXT time.
Just as there is for not doing it THIS time!

Forget about the dry powder - it's time to get the KY out.

The way I see it, there are only two choices now - stay and get reamed out BIG time, or sell your experience to an employer who at least pays the going rate.

This decision by our wonderful ARG was a career one that will affect ALL QANTAS pilots.
It's the one GOD wanted, because it means the resignations will be a slow, controllable trickle, allowing them to gradually increase the workload on those left behind.
It also takes away the threat of any action over the peak travel period.

Oh McGoo, you've done it AGAIN!! :ugh:

[slim]

This decision by our wonderful ARG was a career one that will affect ALL QANTAS pilots.

I'm a little confused Ronny, weren't the ARG against a yes vote? What decision did they make that will affect QF pilots, I thought they didn't have a seat at the union table until later this month?:confused:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Ronnie, I think you ARE a tad confused there... or woefully mis-informed.

[lurker69]

Clearly the majority of you lot are a tad confused not just Ronnie.
What has happened is that the adults have taken the guns and matches away from the children before they could hurt themselves. It's for your own good and you'll thank us oneday:O

[BAE146]

Hey, Ronnie Honker

..........or sell your experience to an employer who at least pays the going rate.

Which Operator in Australia would that be then ? :confused:

[DutchRoll]

What has happened is that the adults have taken the guns and matches away from the children before they could hurt themselves. It's for your own good and you'll thank us oneday
For what, I'm not quite certain. That same statement was made when certain superannuation conditions were negotiated away quite some years ago, and I've heard some pretty harsh words from people who will soon be affected by that, and even harsher words for the AIPA pres at the time, who retired very comfortably 5 years ago (on the previous scheme, naturally). Rejection would have meant that the punters didn't think the EBA was fair, and wanted to re-negotiate. I don't recollect too much talk of metaphorically shooting or setting fire to anything, despite some of the bluff and bravado. Dixon will surely see this as a defeat for the ARG, and together with some legal empowerment in the form of new industrial laws would have to be quietly confident of virtually naming his own conditions for the next EBA.

It is clear that some Qantas pilots do things which resemble lion behaviour. They're quite happy to devour their own young if they see it as advantageous to their current individual position.

[Ejector]

In very simple piont form please,
Who is LH?
Who is ARG?
Which pilot group were voting?
and in 2 lines or less, what were they voting for please?

I know this may seem a bit late, but it will make the post easier to read.

:confused:

[Calligula]

Ejector - if you dont know, you dont have a need to know. Pi$$ off to a non-pilot forum where you belong.


Dutch.

In this regards, QF pilots are no different to any other group of pilots.

[Ejector]

Calligula, Thanks you for your friendly advice Sir.

If I had no desire to know then I would not have posted the little questions.

Once again, Thanks for your advice Calligula but I decline to action on it.

[Offchocks]

Ejector

1) Qantas Longhaul Pilots

2) AIPA Reform Group, a group of pilots newly elected to the union who wish to change the way the union operates. (AIPA is the union)

3) Longhaul Pilots.

4) Pay and conditions.

Calligula - apt name. :}

[blueloo]

Absolutely amazing. Thats 2 bizarre results - Jetstar and the EBA. I wish I could have voted for the LH EBA - I cannot understand, as many others have said, how we could vote the ARG in, then shoot them down in flames.


It would be fascinating to see the voter demographics - ie - which fleet/ranks voted yes/no. I would love to see who endorsed sending S/Os overseas for a pissy pay rise.

Disgusting. Absolutely a disgrace. :mad:

[longjohn]

As a proud NO voter I cannot help being sorely dissappointed at the lack of temerity demonstrated by 58% of our collegues.

However, anecdoetally this is what I saw happenning, of those who admitted to voting YES, they fitted into 2 main categories:

1. Too senior / selfish to care

2. Too young / naieve to know

Unfortunately, group 2 have the most to lose, but will not realise it for some time yet, after which it will be too late.

Anyway, thats democracy :\

[QFinsider]

It aint democracy, it's fear. The pussies were either self interested or scared. Either way we all know what appeasement did for Neville Chamberlain:mad:

Now New IR laws and the yes vote will see J* intrnl rolled out post haste. We folded before we even called their hand. Now we are fuc*ed, all those people saying about time for QF...get ready you tools the IR reforms will get ya all...Thank the lil gimp, excuse me the PM and in our industry the pricks that comtinue to make it all possible....J*:mad:

Time for you serious aviators at J* to fall in with mainline, but if you did i guess you wont get shiny jets will ya?

[Big Jan]

Gee QFinsider, how does it feel to be a prostitute ?
You guy's really make me laugh.You shout and point fingers at everybody and then you roll over and let GD have his way with you and now you are still screaming about Jetstar.Face it you are a bunch of impotent prima donnas who are on their way out.
See Ya!! :{

[QFinsider]

on ya Jan keepit personal.
many of my colleagues may be soft cocks..I certainly didn't come in with a silver spoon...Did 5 years and unemployment in GA. I simply passed the testing that QF set. Did you? What did they promise you this time?

Me a prostitute, clearly you don't know me, but I guess all the personal affronts make it easier for you. Good luck hope you meet the standard

As for Jetstar, maybe flavour of the month today, but it doesn't last , the point of my post is that collectively the IR environment will get us all, including all employees in the economy

[scramjet77]

Me a prostitute, clearly you don't know me, but I guess all the personal affronts make it easier for you. Good luck hope you meet the standard

Well now I've really heard it all. What absolute f**ck*ng hypocrisy. You QANTAS types have done nothing but bad mouth, criticise and run down just about everybody in the industry, not just limited to Jetstar or National Jet etc, whilst adopting a pious holier than thou attitude to all and sundry.

Well, you have all just proved exactly who and what you are for ALL THE WORLD to see. Hypocrites, stinking bl**dy hypocrites. You have shown your true colours and the fact that your lectures, belligerence and loud mouthed self aggrandisement are based on nothing more than p*ss and wind.

Just like all bullies tend to do, you have turned to water when the acid test arrived.

Go ahead and sledge us all, say and do your worst, the fact is you have been exposed, nothing you say or do can change that fact, and the rest of us are just laughing in your face.

[BAE146]

Guys, I gotta tell you - QF pilots, traditionally, have never been good "bar room scrappers". They have always backed down when direct confrontation with management rears it's ugly head.

Dixon knows it, Oldmeadow knows it and so does AIPA !

Get used to it, over it and bare those shiny little asses cause you're all in for a hiding to nothing ! :\

[jakethemuss]

Laugh away kookaburra.

The 6% payrise sees every Captain on 200k plus and the 400 Captains on approx 300k plus.

A loss of licence scheme that will pay over 700k tax free after November next year. etc. etc.

If you attack this then you attack your own salary because surely we will come back to meet you, not vice versa.

What a delightful bunch of individuals you envious types must be to socialise with. Whinge whinge whinge.

Get a life and show us how tough you are. You have nothing to lose because nobody is going to undercut your crap salaries. (Then again????)

[Vorsicht]

Jake

I'm afraid you have missed the point.

As you know, quite a few of your colleagues have been advocating that everyone else in the world should accept their lowly position and refuse to work for lesser salaries in Australia, for the greater good, so that in the long run everyone would benefit.

The counter argument has been, why should the rest of us fall on our swords in order to protect your world, when you do nothing to help youselves.

Unfortunately for the good guys in Qantas, this latest capitulation has gone along way to substantiate the point that QF drivers are a bunch of prima donnas who expect others to do their dirty work for them.

Given the imminent arrival of J* international, I would guess this was your last chance to shore up your position. But as your post clearly proves, all you guys care about is your own salary and conditions, not anyone elses.

[blueloo]

I agree, we at QF are hypocrites. Just not all of us, nor the 40% of us who voted no (and some in spirit as a large percentage couldnt actually vote), also remember - this was just LONGHAUL. There are a fair few in SHORTHAUL who have a separate EBA (that is another issue)


So whilst you paint all with a large brush, I suggest you pause and give thought to those who did vote no, and realise that not all of us rolled over, and some of us wanted to stand up. Unfortunately in this case (but overall fortunately for the principal) it is a democracy.

[jakethemuss]

Tell me,

How does attempting to "shore up" jetstar intl flying increase my salary?

If I earn more than you, that puts me at risk. Doesn't that help you? You can ask for a little bit less than I get and hope that you are successful in getting my job and salary.

Aim high!

[HI'er]

The results - as I understand them - are symptomatic of this "brave new world"...I...me...NOW!

Abeles and Murdoch tried with Australian pilots back then, but ended up having to bring in overseas opportunists to support the small percentage of Australians who couldn't resist what seemed then to be easy, fast gain for themselves, and b()gger the rest.
The present CEO of Qantas has set a "shining" example of how to take care of No.1, at the expense of ALL other Qantas employees.

IMO, it is now apparent to Mr D., that there is no overall unity within the main AIPA membership - a 60/40 result on these issues will be a landslide when the harder battle(s) arise.

It's sad to see, for those pilots who might have thought they were going to have a similar career path in QF, over the next 5 - 20 years, as those who have preceded them in the previous few decades.

Short term gain for (very) long term pain.

[Vorsicht]

Jake

There you go again. Me, Me,Me,Me.

Until you stop caring so much about your salary, and more about those who's industry you represent, then......... well if you can't work it out, there is no point in any of us trying to explain.

[Wizofoz]

Bu Wait! Isn't Jetstar 100% QF mainline crews? It must be! Jake said (repeatedly and with condesention to anyone who dis-agreed) that it was going to be!!!

[polemic]

Blueloo, the vote at Jetstar was similar but that didn't stop the Qantas guys reaching for the big brush, fun when the shoes on the other foot isn't it. Maybe you guys will see that we are against a common enemy and move forwards, too much to hope for I guess.

Qfinsider,
love it, congradulations on passing the test it works a treat that testing doesn't it. glad you will have an inspirational moment to hold onto for the rest of your life.

Jakethemuss,
sure mate we will take up the battle for you, nothing would make us happier, if you can't win your own battles get the others to lose theirs same outcome for you guys I guess just less pain and backbone required.

[Calligula]

The argument 'you QF blokes never do anything for anyone else so its fair if we undercut you and take your jobs' has always interested me.

I am aware that 'the pope' kept us out of '89. Given what has happened to pilot wages in this country since, maybe that was not a bad thing. The irony being that the current downward spiral had been generated by '89 returnees who have championed b-scales and paying for endorsements.

To those (vor****t ect) who push this line please tell me exactly what you would have AIPA do for you.

Eastern pilots are able to join AIPA if they wish. They are able to access all the resources of the association at a rate significantly less than what a -400 Capt pays (and fair enough too).

Jetstar pilots are able to join AIPA too. At the moment they chose do not do this because I suspect the deal that Oldmeadow is offering is more appealing.

But at some point this will end - someone else wll come along and undercut them and they will know how we all feel.

QF LH wages are the high water mark now. The aim is to get everyone else a payrise - not to drag us down.

I repeat my eariler question - give me a list of specific things you want help with and I will tell you if AIPA can help or not.

Otherwise, sour grapes will not help bring your T & C's up to the level they should be at.

The EBA result is a disgrace. But Dixon and Mannings threats and the rumour and innuendo surrounding the ARG had the desired effect on the membership. Its now up to the ARG to see what it can do over the next 12 months for EBA 8 before the new IR legislation blows everyone out of the water

[Ronnie Honker]

The ARG had their chance this time, but they went to water (keeping their powder dry).
I'll start my diet next month!

The results have shown that it's now everyone for himself, because THAT was what the consensus of opinion showed in REALITY!

If Dixon uses the Jet* blokes to cut our throats, it will only be because WE have demonstrated that we're willing to cut our OWN blokes' throats to advance ourself - and for a pittance might I add.

Thank god we weren't involved in 1989 not just for us, but for everyone!
Can you imagine how much further WE would have dragged conditions down, much sooner!

[cunninglinguist]

To the QF guys who say " don't call me a softcok, I did'nt vote yes ", maybe you could show the same courtesy to those in Jet*, Natjet that did the same ???
You are not the only pilot group in Oz to have a bunch of grass cutting ar5e lickers amongst you :rolleyes:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Ronnie, with IW publicly advocating a "No" Vote and others from the group also doing same, please explain exactly how the ARG "went to water"???

[QFinsider]

Fair point too Cunning,

There is always someone willing to undercut to get ahead. A market like this never really progresses.

It really expands on my point. The company will keep us all at odds with each other-misinformation and mistrust being the key to the divide.

As for you Pole, yes it was a sweet moment, hope you felt the same too wherever you are.

As alluded to by Calligula the desire is to bring everyone up not cut other's down. The 40% who said no, did so for a variety of reasons. For many sending new hires to Singapore turned our stomachs. It is not about money.

For the record for you people not in QF who don't know the union president who told Impulse to get lost.....The Chief Pilot now...
Division is to his benefit-literally

[jakethemuss]

I suggest you actually ask the Jetstar and Eastern pilots who it was that they met with. I think that you will find that the real rub came from a person with initials not dissimilar to the beloved CEO.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though.

Ask around the JPC and Eastern Pilot's Group if you can, they all tell an interesting and similar story about the events.

[QFinsider]

My point exactly Jake, it is the misinformation and fear that produces the crap that management love.

Our CP at mainline is the guy and who generates a big bonus for everything that keeps us divided and drives down the cost base....

It aint rocket science!!

[jakethemuss]

You are wrong with whom you think it was.

Ask around.

[DutchRoll]

In this regards, QF pilots are no different to any other group of pilots.
I generally agree with that Calligula. But the psyche of some of us (QF pilots) is really fascinating. There seemed to be a few 'yes' camps, but one of the most puzzling was the 'I voted yes because it was made clear we wouldn't get anything better'. Like, if GD's next offer was a pay freeze until the net profit reaches $1.5 billion, Singapore basings for all ranks, plus 20 strokes of the rattan and positively not a cent more, would they still vote yes 'because it was made clear we wouldn't get anything better'?

There were other groups who didn't want to rock the boat for their own selfish reasons (and there you have it in a nutshell). but none more strange than the above. I'm left wondering with trepidation what the yes camp's bottom line is, and how they think EBA8 can be negotiated from a stronger position! GD must've really broken out the champers for his negotiating lads the other night.

[lurker69]

one of the most puzzling was the 'I voted yes because it was made clear we wouldn't get anything better'.

I think you can take out the 'made clear' bit. You didn't have to take the Company or the Unions word on it. Most of the yes voters I know looked at the deal, listened to the arguments on both sides, looked around at the world situation, then decided for themselves that either 1) we wouldn't get any better. or 2) we MIGHT get better but it was an incredibly small chance and the better was likely to be extremely marginal.

I reckon those considerations are fair enough. I would have voted yes if I could and I stand by it.

[Calligula]

Ocker.

A simple question - do you work for QF as a pilot ?.

A very significant number of pilots commute from melbourne - basings there on any fleet would be / are popular and would be easily crewed.

The fact there is not a B767 base there is up to QF - it has nothing to do with AIPA

[polemic]

Calligula & friends,

are you guys not aware of the court case between afap & aipa, at this stage non mainline pilots can't legally join, except for a token donation which means and stands for nothing.

If this is not the case I suggest you get onto aipa to circulate some info to the contary.

else shut up about jetstar pilot choosing not to join, at the moment there is no choice

[Calligula]

Polemic - I was aware of the court case. However there are about 60 members of JQ aust who are AIPA members already.

These guys would enjoy the use of AIPA's legal representation in the event of an accident.

I have a warm spot in my heart for the feds, but industrially they are a spent force.

[DutchRoll]

I know what you're saying Lurker, but still somewhere there has to be a line below which you would say 'no way, I can't vote for that', irrrespective of whether you think you're not going to get any improvement from the company.

The reason I say this, is because *if* the new IR laws get through in their current form, the company may just about be able to offer you a sh#t sandwich and make it their final offer. Would you still vote to accept it? I just wonder where that line is for mainline pilots, if there indeed is one. There's probably not much point in having a voting process if it's a foregone conclusion that you'll accept their bottom line.

I voted no because I saw it as winding back conditions in a time of record profitability while most mainline pilots have made a concerted effort to 'do the right thing' in terms of operating as efficiently as they can for the company. If the company profit had been marginal or reduced from last time, I may have voted yes.

[738Capt]

The current CEO would be happy to pay 747 pilots $45,000 to fly 400+ people around the globe. He has alway said he believes wages are to high for everyone other than him.

If you can get a pilot on a AWA on $45,000 to fly 747, why not. The new I.R laws will allow for this.

The single biggest cost for Qantas is man power. So you watch as all LAME's are fired, flight crews imported from overseas.

Qantas IS NOT an Australian airline, it is a company with a few employees who are going to be forced to eat sh%t and thank the Board of Directors for it, and yes the great man Mr Dixon.

When do issues of safety come into play?? We all remember bangkok and idle reverse on a wet runway, with crosswind.

[lurker69]

Great points Dutchy. I don't disagree with anything you say, although I suspect that the new IR laws will not be the end of the world as many are predicting.

The key problem I saw with our situation lies with the underlying position we were in, totally due to the previous administration by the way. A hard line had to be taken from day dot with the negotiations. That would have layed a foundation upon which a firm stand could be taken. We were in quicksand up to our knees. I honestly believe we would have been so soundly defeated in any confrontation with the company that the future of the union as our voice might have been compromised. A good example can be seen by looking at the international branch of the FAAA. They are about as close to irrelevant as any union in Oz. A wise general chooses the place and time of battle to ensure his advantage. This simply wasn't the right time or place.

738- How much was the Captain in BKK being paid? Would he have been safer had he been making more? I fail to see your point.

[Chief Chook]

A good example can be seen by looking at the international branch of the FAAA. They are about as close to irrelevant as any union in Oz.A good example can be seen by looking at AIPA.
They are about as close to irrelevant as any union in Oz.

[happydriver]

I dont know which of the two is worse........GOD who continually speaks of doom and gloom or the majority of my collegues (previous posts) whom also speak of doom and gloom (albeit from a different perspective)......i mean we despise it when GOD goes on and on about how hard times are but when you guys also go on about how its the end of the world for mainline pilots (since the yes vote).....now thats hypocrisy to me!

Its not the end of the world guys.....voting the ARG into office means that the majority of us were not happy with the way AIPA was being run,voting yes for the EBA means that the majority of LH pilots are happy(content) with the results....these are 2 distinctively different issues..so I dont know how some of you can claim that the majority of AIPA members have turned their backs on their own elected AIPA reps...

Shoot away boys!!:ok:

[blueloo]

lurker, i think the issue he raised related to safety and cost cutting. Whilst the actions on the day are found in the report, one major aspect which contributed to the BKK was the training, and use of a lower flap setting and idle reverse to save money, via more efficient brake use.

[HI'er]

The title of this thread is "Geoff a happy man....", the interpretation to my mind being "Geoff is happy because AIPA has shown itself to be a toothless tiger".
There was the usual huffing and puffing, and beating of chests - but in the end the members came around to GOD's threats...sorry, point of view....... as being the best that would see AIPA "preserved" - like some sort of monument to bygone times.

It's going to be sad to see "more of the same" dished out to QF staff during the remainder of Mr Dixon's tenure - he obviously has the measure of the strengths (?) of his opponents...sorry, employees....and will, I believe, slash and burn QF mainline until no effective collective employee representation remains - all spurred on by Little Johnny.

IMO, any ideas of a pilot backlash through this ARG, over the next 12 months, are pipe dreams.
It's going to be the same old story, "we would have been so soundly defeated in any confrontation with the company that the future of the union as our voice might have been compromised.".
Keep the dinosaur away from any immediate, potential battles - it's dying a slow, natural death anyway.
http://www.kidstoychest.com/images/saf353240_small.jpg

[lurker69]

HI'er

Not much input there. I don't want to argue about the year but- your results speak for themselves. No matter what brought it about, or who did what to whom, the result was that you lost/resigned/had stolen your job, your union was basically destroyed and most of you left the country. Thanks for the comments but please don't be offended if we don't follow your lead.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Is the company applying the same pressures on the T & C's of the bureaucrats in the company - ie office staff and middle management?

[elektra]

The task ahead is indeed difficult for QF mainline drivers…made all the more so by the years and years of neglect of the industrial power that was (once) available. Thread after thread has passed here and been met with the predicable “stop boring us with history, it can’t happen to us”.

I suspect there is not much time left before complete impotence takes over. And yet AIPA’s response is to divert attention by fighting the AFAP in court. What about a single pilot union at last?…with AFAP and AIPA as partners rather than antagonists.

As it stands the AFAP represents a lot of highly qualified Australian 777 captains and if Jetstar offer contracts one day, why would such pilots knock back the offer? To help AIPA? Why? There are worlds where an accommodation on these things can be reached…the “Do nothing” world is not one of them.