Non-Stops from Syd-LAX and One-Stops to LHR

[Critical Reynolds No]

Hello Everyone,

Does anyone know when the first non-stop flights across the pacific began, what airline and what type? I beleive it may have been Pan Am and the 747-SP back in the late 70's. When did Qantas non-stop services begin?

As with flying the other way to London, when did the first one- stop service start and with what aircraft? Was it with the 747-300?

Thanks

[DirectAnywhere]

Pan AM and QF both used to have direct trans-pacific services with the SP although Pan Am's westbound service more often than not had to stop in for gas at HNL as the Pratts were not good enough fuel wise to go the distance in comparison with the Rollers on the QF SP. It started to cost Pan Am dearly in terms of both dollars and reputation.

Can't give you a start date to London but I remember going via BKK in a QF -300 sometime in the late 80's ('87 perhaps)?

[alangirvan]

During the mid-80s Qantas started doing Sydney-Melbourne-Bombay(Mumbai)-London-Bombay-Sydney. The flights left Melbourne after midnight, because the curfew at SYD was a problem. This was with the (then) new 747-300s.

I think the Pan Am 747-SPs had a scheduled stop at Auckland west bound LAX-AKL-SYD-LAX

[VH-Cheer Up]

I flew SYD-LAX non stop in a QF 747SP in June 1984. VH-EAA if I recollect... Had flown LAX-HNL in same aircraft on its inaugural service (I think?) in April 1981.

Ah, those were the days, iced caviar and vodka service before lunch, roast carved at your table. Wonder what the passengers got?

[slice]

BKK-LON in a 743. Presumably that would have been fairly load limited. AFAIK the -300 doesn't have much more range/payload capability than equivalent era -200s.

In another thread somewhere on this forum it was mentioned that the -300s doing SYD-BOM were quite payload resticted due alternate fuel etc etc.

[DirectAnywhere]

BKK-LON was limited although the aircraft was capable of doing it with roughly 300/350 pax (northern summer/winter) and little or no freight, same as it does SYD-BOM today.

Aircraft had/has additional reserve tanks good for about 4.6 tonnes or extra 200 odd miles which I think pushed it over the edge.

[alangirvan]

The 747-300 would have flown an acceptable payload SYD-MEL-BOM in the 1980s, so why is it payload limited now? Different seating configuration?

Singapore Airlines started flying London-Singapore in the early 1980s - only one direction. I think they were not as payload limited as they were expecting.

[DirectAnywhere]

It doesn't fly MEL-BOM today. It flies from about 230Nm further east. Hence the payload limit.

230Nm is good to carry roughly an extra 40 pax and, given the configuration at the time, that would have allowed virtually a full load.

Try it at Great Circle Plotter (http://gc.kls2.com)

Note, it's also interesting in the context of this thread to compare BKK-LHR to SYD-BOM. Shows BKK-LHR may not have been quite as limiting as suggested earlier.

[Don Esson]

PanAm was first on the Pacific with non-stops and Qantas followed with 3 a week. PA were eventually beaten in the market place as they often had to make a pit stop westbound. The RR engined SP was superior to the PWatts of PanAM.

YMML-VABB (Mumbai) was operated with RR engined 747-238s. Tankage was often the limit as the forecast for their pre-dawn arrival in Mumbai invariably called for an alternate. The fuel tankers would stay connected in YMML until final ZFW was know so that more gas could be loaded. This service came after the 747-338's began non-stops VTBD-EGLL. This was also a tight operation but assisted by early afternoon and often quite benign wx for arrival in EGLL. Always flown with min. fuel.

Qantas loved to stretch the aircraft and challenge the despatchers and drivers.:) :)

[alangirvan]

I have had a great time looking at Great Circle Plotter. Over 20 years ago I sat in an office at the Qantas Engineering Base, and I was shown some of the programs they had in those days to look at potential routes. I think they calculated winds on 85% of trips.


If Dubai and other airports in the Gulf are about 7400 miles from SYD, would they be possible non stops out of SYD for a 747-400 in QF configuration? Bahrain shows as 7700, which would be available to A340-500s and some 777s.

[Brian Abraham]

Flew Pan Am westbound and stopped at Nandi for fuel - mid 80's.

[Capt Fathom]

Note, it's also interesting in the context of this thread to compare BKK-LHR to SYD-BOM. Shows BKK-LHR may not have been quite as limiting as suggested earlier.
Unfortunately, Bangkok to London is not possible via great circle due to the Himalaya's!

[neville_nobody]

I was of the understanding that Qantas were the first airline to operate non stop across the Pacific in a 747SP. LAX-SYD was the first flight and it almost didn't happen because the cabin crew said it was too long to work and had some form of industrial action about it.

[Taildragger67]

Pretty sure PA were operating SYD-SFO before the rat got SPs. Think they kicked off in 1976 - at the time, the longest non-stop flight in the world. I know I did AKL-SFO in 1977 on a PA SP and they were already doing YSSY runs by that time. Neville, I don't think the rat got their SPs until 1980 or '81. One of the main reasons for gettings SPs was not only range, but also short-field perf to operate into Welly after they retired the last 707.

As a youngster, I did QFA009 YSSY-YMML-VABB-EGLL in May 1987 on a -300. I think that routing had been in play for a year or two by then.

Just remember the crowds sitting on the walls at Bombay (as it still was) and the state of some of the buildings scattered around the aerodrome...