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Chief Chook
30th Oct 2005, 09:31
There is a Muslim family originally from the Middle East, who live quite near to my house. They have obtained citizenship of my birth country, having lived here for several years - possibly because my country's passport is far less restrictive than the Middle Eastern one is.
The wife still wears the headgear (and always full length dresses) - as do nuns of the Christian faith - and as is her right in this country. However, as it is not the "usual attire" here, she does stand out.

Having visited several countries in that region, I was not allowed to carry a Bible into their country, nor was I permitted to wear a cross nor any other non-Muslim "religious adornments".

The aforementioned (Muslim) family has only just found out that Halloween may have Christian roots - the name being derived from All souls and all saints (All Hallows) eve, All Souls and All Saints Day being Nov 1 and 2 - and have now forbidden their children from joining with the other kids in Trick or Treating, although they had joined in the fun in previous years.

Conversely, when I was visiting countries of predominantly Islamic persuasion, I had no alternative but to "cover up", and to be locked in or out of shops, restaurants, shopping malls, etc., during prayer time when speakers blare the call to prayers at maximum decibals across the city.

I feel angry that given the choice these people elect to NOT fit in, but by the same token ram THEIR religion down my throat!

TheFlyingSquirrel
30th Oct 2005, 09:34
:mad: off please ! I'm sick of these poxy posts ! I come to JB to have a little fun, not read this nonsense - IMHO of course !

BombayDuck
30th Oct 2005, 09:40
I feel angry that given the choice these people elect to NOT fit in, but by the same token ram THEIR religion down my throat!

Can you quote an example relevant to this couple? Because I yet cannot see what they've done wrong.

As for preventing their kids from going to trick-or-treat, it is their personal matter. If they stopped yours, it would be ramming their religion down your throat.

Binoculars
30th Oct 2005, 09:45
Agree with Bombay Duck here. I too would object to anybody of any religion who tried to ram it down my neck, but deciding what values they wish to instill in their own children is entirely their own decision.

Whirlygig
30th Oct 2005, 09:49
All Hallow's Eve and All Soul's Day more than likely have pagan derivations.

All Soul's Day is now, mostly, a Roman Catholic Day of Remembrance when we should remember our loved ones who have died.

The pagan tradition was that the souls of the departed would join the family for a meal.

I can't see what this family have done that's so offensive to you. Maybe it would be a nice gesture to invite them round and talk about your respective cultures/religions but make sure you know your facts.

Cheers

Whirls

DeBurcs
30th Oct 2005, 10:16
given the choice these people elect to NOT fit in, but by the same token ram THEIR religion down my throat! You're not alone there, chook. But they do it becase they can.

That's what makes us think we're better than them and them think they're smarter than us. :rolleyes:

Howard Hughes
30th Oct 2005, 11:06
Had the pleasure of attending an early halloween party last night.

Met a fantastic chap who I had previously heard about but never met, he is an Iraqi who has assimilated well into the Australian way of life.

Now of course being a muslim he still adheres to the strict islamic codes, but he has the greatest sense of humour I have ever seen. In true Aussie tradition no subject is sacred including his own religion.

Last night in amongst the vampires, witches and ghouls he turns up dressed in full muslim attire including headgear, with faux bomb strapped to his body, well we all just cracked up, if only there were more like him on both sides, it would be a lot easier to see we are not that much different after all.......

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

DeBurcs
30th Oct 2005, 11:11
Would've been even funnier if he'd wandered in with a look of confusion, saying:

"Hallowe'en? What's Hallowe'en???"

kms901
30th Oct 2005, 11:11
"Trick or Treat" is an American commercial invention reviving old pagan memories. It is designed to carry the greetings card/novelty industry between the end of summer and Christmas. It was not "celebrated" in the UK 20 years ago. Get a life. I celebrate it buy playing blood- curdling screams every time a child knocks on my door.

You have been had, Idiot.

Howard Hughes
30th Oct 2005, 11:14
Would've been even funnier if he'd wandered in with a look of confusion, saying:
"Hallowe'en? What's Hallowe'en???"
:D I may very well have ducked under the table....;)

:ok:

TAF Oscar
30th Oct 2005, 11:36
Here in Bahrain Muslims celebrate Gargaoun, on the night halfway through the holy month of Ramadan (which will end this week Weds or Thurs depending on the moon sighting).

Gargaoun involves the kids dressing up, going round to the neighbours houses and singing a song or reciting a poem for them, after which they are rewarded with sweets...

Wingswinger
30th Oct 2005, 11:36
As mentioned already, "trick or treat" is an American export and has little to do with halloween tradition on this side of the pond. It can, on occasion, be unpleasant or intimidating, especially for older people.

In my Glasgow youth, children used to dress in costume to sing songs, recite poems or perform a feat or conjuring trick in return for which they would be given sweets, fruit, cake or a few pennies. Coins were hidden in dumplings to be discovered while eating and we "dunked" for apples. Harmless fun.

I would not object if "trick or treat" died a natural death.

Chief Chook
30th Oct 2005, 11:38
It was not "celebrated" in the UK 20 years ago.But what is reportedly the forerunner of it was celebrated in Ireland, as a Celtic festival, in the 5th century BC (500 years before Christ).

Can you quote an example relevant to this couple? This couple allowed their kids to join in Trick or Treat for the past 4-5 years, however as they now believe this is a Christian based festival (in a Christian based society), they have disallowed their children from joining in.
As willing as they were to "embrace" this country to achieve citizenship that in turn gives them a "passport of convenience", they are now isolating their children on the basis of (supposed) religious beliefs.
I see this as divisive and isolationist.

Of course our tree huggers are going to now tell me that this is their right.
But where are MY rights when I go to their country(s)?

eal401
30th Oct 2005, 11:44
I had no alternative but to "cover up", and to be locked in or out of shops, restaurants, shopping malls, etc., during prayer time when speakers blare the call to prayers at maximum decibals across the city.
You mean you didn't respect the local customs then? Or at least had issues with them?

Hmmmm.

Binoculars
30th Oct 2005, 11:46
It's rather sad when allowing freedom of religion is assigned the status of tree-hugging, I think.

You are quite correct; you don't have the same rights in their country as they do in yours. You object to that as being unfair, so to level the playing field you want to descend to their level?

I think you'd be better off celebrating the freedoms we do enjoy in this country. We're not talking about terrorists here, just parents who want their kids to observe the rituals of their own religion.

Wyler
30th Oct 2005, 11:56
Exactly. By your own admission, you adhered to their rules because you HAD to, not because you wanted to. The family in question is only excercising that same right. I suppose we could send in the police to beat them into trick or treating, then I guess we would no longer be a free country.
I have lived in three muslim countries and was always treated with respect. During Ramadan in one country, I was provided with a 'quiet room' for my breaks. Inside I found tea, water and food, provided by my hosts in defference to my religion. In others, when joing families for food, where the local delicacy was sheeps eyeballs and brains, they changed the menu to chicken, again, out of consideration for my delicate digestive system.
Live and let live. They are doing nothing wrong and there are far bigger things wrong in this country to waorry about.

Whirlygig
30th Oct 2005, 11:58
they have disallowed their children from joining in.
That's their perogative; it's not harming or inconveniencing you is it?

If it's any consolation, my parents (via the wishes of the priest) didn't want to me to go to CofE Harvest festival services as I was a Roman Catholic and so didn't go when the rest of the school went. I also had time off to go the Mass servcie for Assumption, Feast of St. Peter & St. Paul etc.

And that's within the UK, within one religion and all British born and bred!

As I said, why not explain to the family that it's not originally a Christian festival; the Christians took it over from an existing Pagan one.

Trick or treat is not a law; it's not compulsory to do it so why are you saying that it's one rule for them and another for you in their country? I'm sure there are many Christians in your town who don't want their children to get involved in "trick or treat" - are they subject to the same ire?

Cheers

Whirls


PS - It was not "celebrated" in the UK 20 years ago.
I can remember going out trick or treating when I was a kid and that would have been over thirty years ago. But, in those days, it was more akin to carol singing - we had to earn our biscuit!

PanPanYourself
30th Oct 2005, 12:01
*sigh* not again.

People please, I am only one person and trying to defend the whole of Islam against the vast array of religious bigots on this forum is getting tiresome.

What we have here is a xenophobiac who would rather judge his neighbours because they act and dress a little differently, instead of taking an interest in who they are as people. They obviously realize the inferior quality of life and lack of freedom in their own country, thats why they came to "your" country. That doesn't mean they have to give up their culture and religion just because you have some kind of problem with it.

And as god damn usual somebody is judging all muslims because of the actions of a few.

Come to Turkey, your wife can walk around the middle of Istanbul wearing only a thong and a crucafix necklace.

Chief Chook
30th Oct 2005, 12:07
That's their perogativeBut I am not afforded the same "perogative" (prerogative) in Muslim countires to wear the clothing and jewlry of MY choice - yet THEY play upon OUR weaknesses in allowing THEM the freedom to dress and carry out activities that are clearly quite different to those in OUR (democratic) societies.

it's not harming or inconveniencing you is it?It's isolating their children from mine, at an early age, based on religion.

why not explain to the family that it's not originally a Christian festival; the Christians took it over from an existing Pagan one. Already done. But because it is now seen by them as a "Christian celebration", they are refusing to join in.

Socially and outwardly, nicer, more gentle people you could never meet.

Perhaps "Yes, again", PanPanYourself - it's consistent, isn't it. Perhaps because of its consistency, and insistency from YOUR side of things. *sigh*

PanPanYourself
30th Oct 2005, 12:15
Perhaps "Yes, again", PanPanYourself - it's consistent, isn't it. Perhaps because of its consistency, and insistency from YOUR side of things. *sigh*
What the hell are you blathering about?

Wedge
30th Oct 2005, 12:19
When I clicked on this thread I expected to see a complaint from one of the average Daily Mail ranters asking why Muslim kids should take part in a 'Christian' tradition like Halloween when it's outside the bounds and teachings of their religion.

Instead they are getting criticised for forbidding their children to take part!!!! They really between a rock and a hard place on this one.

As for having Islam 'rammed down my throat'....Yawn. It's never been rammed down my throat, although annoyingly, happy clappy Christians have tried to ram their religion down my throat many times - even while sitting on a train. Not to mention the Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door countless times.

I'm equally opposed to the hugely damaging and anti-humanist teachings of the Christian and Muslim faiths.

I'm sick of these poxy posts too.

Whirlygig
30th Oct 2005, 12:22
It's isolating their children from mine, at an early age, based on religion.

So, I'll ask again - what about all the Christian parents who don't allow their children to go out trick or treating. Are they being criticized for isolating their children from yours as well?

What IS the issue here. Is it that your children are upset because their friends' parents won't let them come out on Hallowe'en or is it one of religious intolerance.

As the product of Northern Irish parents, I have lived with sectarianism and religious hatred in England towards Catholics. Should you choose to live in Ireland, you will be living in a Catholic country and will have to abide by their laws. There's nothing new here.

Cheers

Whirls

Chief Chook
30th Oct 2005, 12:39
I think you're somewhat confused Whirly.
Protestant = Christian.
(Roman) Catholic = Christian.

Do Christian parents - Protestant or R.C - ACTIVELY stop their children from enjoying Trick or Treating based on one dialect of the Christian faith?

The "issue" here is that UNTIL these (Muslim) parents decided that Halloween was a Christian-based festival, they were quite happy to have their kids join in.
Now that they believe this is an activity based on religion, as opposed to kids just having fun, they are forbidding their kids to do what they had done previously - which was a bonding experience for all of the kids, and with no religious overtures implied.
NOW it seems there are. And which will probably prove to be more divisive again next year.

The end of an age of innocence.

airship
30th Oct 2005, 12:50
Now now, PPY! People please, I am only one person and trying to defend... I do believe that there were already 9 or 10 other posters before you who've managed quite well in returning the offending chook to its cage... ;)

Add me to the list of those "who're sick" of incendiary and offensive posts from uhmmm, grumpy old (wo)men please. Especially on a Sunday! :sad:

Whirlygig
30th Oct 2005, 12:54
Ha ha ha - me confused about Protestants and Catholics. Oh yes, I must be. Thank you for pointing that out. Living in Northern Ireland, I never knew we were all supposed to be Christian.

The point I was making is that YES - Protestant families and Catholics families DO actively stop their children from taking part in other "denomination's" celebrations, maybe not "trick or treat" but other celebrations. Many Christian parents stop their children from taking part in "trick or treat" as they don't agree with the Pagan overtones!! Or the "extortion with menaces" overtones either!

You don't seem to wish to give a reasoned argument/discussion to my other points. I'm just going off to remind myself why I don't usually join in the political/religious threads; too many people with their own agendas wrapped up in their own beliefs without any consideration to another viewpoint.

Cheers

Whirls

(not Whirly - she's someone else!!)

Binoculars
30th Oct 2005, 12:56
Thank you, Airship. :ok:

Chief Chook
30th Oct 2005, 13:27
Well - this post seems to have crossed the rules line in terms of: xenophobia; racism; and personal insults. Don't think I've banned anybody from their own thread before, but there's a first time for everything! And I think that's also enough for this thread too. Bye!
Hmmm - just discovered that you can't "thread ban" a thread starter. Never mind, thread's closed anyway.
:E

Flypuppy
30th Oct 2005, 13:33
Chief Cook,

I am assuming you are Australian. If so, how many Aboriginal festivals, customs and rights do you observe? After all you came to live in their country.

If you went to a muslim country, no one forced you go there, I'll be willing to bet you accepted the jobs there because they paid better than ones in Oz.

This thread portrays you as nothing more than a bigot of the worst kind.

Whirlygig
30th Oct 2005, 13:39
"Why are WE being made to change,
YOU are NOT being made to change. Reasoned argument has obviously passed you by. As I said, you have your fixed views from which you are not going to change and it seems to me that all you want is for other like-minded people to post on here and say "There there Chook, isn't it absolutely awful being forced to live near someone who does not share your beliefs"

Well Chook, obviously irony has passed you by as well; I don't think I have taken the p!ss out of anyone, not even you.

Your arguments are getting less and less cogent as you are now sinking to depths of insults against anyone who disagrees with you.

Cheers

Whirls

OneWorld22
30th Oct 2005, 13:40
how many Aboriginal festivals, customs and rights do you observe?


:p :p

fmgc
30th Oct 2005, 13:53
Chief Chook

You are crazy, the beauty of living in a "free society" is that our citizens are allowed such choices whether it is based on religion, race, moral standards etc.

I would understand your argument if you felt that your freedom of choice/speech was being restricted because of them (as often is the case in this PC world that we live in).

Binoculars
30th Oct 2005, 13:53
THEY refuse to have any part of OUR culture, but expect US to willingly secede to THEM.

Sorry? I thought all they were doing was imposing their own religious preferences on their children. Should anybody suggest that right be taken away from Australian, sorry, Christian parents, all hell would break loose, not least from the likes of you.

You are showing your true colours, Chook, and they're not pretty ones. You're not really concerned about Halloween at all, are you? I think Flypuppy put his finger on the nub of the problem fairly accurately in his last sentence.

BTW, I'm gratified to see the majority opinion on this matter, but I wish a few more of them, besides HH were Australian.

Chief Chook
30th Oct 2005, 14:12
Now you're starting to catch on Binocularsimposing their own religious preferences on their children.The point is, their "religious preferences" are based on bigotry - the BELIEF that Halloween is a Christian festival.
Until this year, their kids had joined in with all the other kids in Trick or Treating.
This year they won't be - because they THINK it's a Chrisitian based gathering.
Naturally the other kids are asking "Why" they won't be enjoying the company of XXXXX and YYYYY.

Generally Western society is all about "breaking down the borders" - not setting up new ones.

If you went to a muslim country, no one forced you go there, I'll be willing to bet you accepted the jobs there because they paid better than ones in Oz.I went there only as a visitor - and was treated like a refugee.

I am assuming you are Australian.I'm assuming I'm a Canadian - and that you are married to a Muslim.

Binoculars
30th Oct 2005, 14:19
I only ever repeat myself once. I'm too busy wandering aimlessly looking for someone to accept me to be talking to brick walls. :rolleyes:

Never mind, you've got deBurcs on your side, if nobody else. Check out his history of posts and feel comforted.