Qantas - an airline that rewards mediocrities

[Scooter]

Whilst back in Oz for a few weeks,last night I had the pleasure of attending a BBQ at a mates place (QF B737 F/O).

Great people overall with good attitudes until a twenty something year old QF second officer rocked up bragging about how much more he got paid compared to the 737 FO's.

This guy claims he got paid about $12,000 more than the average 737 FO and was proud of the fact that he doesnt have to do take-off's or landings no less.

Now how can an airline pay a second officer more than a trained line FO that has to maintain a much higher standard and display his/her skills on a daily basis?

Nothing against SO's because I was an S/O for a very short period,but when a guy gets paid more and doesnt have to demonstrate assymetric skills, takeoff and landings with all their intricacies just to begin with seems wrong.

The fact that this guy bragging was a pratt had nothing to do with it.
I just got me thinking how an airline allows this to happen in the first place,not to mention the fact that paying a guy alot of money to be an SO (all care and little responsibility) does absolutely nothing to motivate them to move out of the back and get a window seat.

I understand the need for S/O's but can anybody elaborate here?

[blueloo]

Happens in any industry not just flying. There are wankers everywhere. Probably little life experience external to school, going straight into a pretty well paid job hasnt helped.

[Capt Claret]

Scooter,

I reckon my two twenty something year old sons are fairly typical of their age (& gender).

At various times they've both displayed an attitude that they're the first 20 something year olds to have experienced a certain thing.

Neither seem to give their old man much credit for having been a teenager, and a twenty-something year old. They seem to think I was always old.

Come to think of it, that's what I though qabout my old man too! :\

[Tunguska]

Perhaps its a throw-back to the "good old days" whereby it took about 8 or 9 years as a second officer before seeing the window seat so to speak.

Having alot of cadets in those days I would say the cadet mafia definitely had some input.
Former cadets now in management looking after other cadets - probably their sons/relatives no less!

It leads me to another question about the Qantas cadet pilot scheme.
Just how much money does Qantas spend administering these cadets and is the shareholder getting their moneys worth?
There are so many suitable applicants in the military, GA and commuter airlines so why even bother?

I understand that the cadets now pay for the privilege but can Qantas afford this unnecessary extravagence administering them?

Seems like a bloody waste to me that I will raise at the next shareholders meeting as well as email every board member about this and expect a reply.

Sounds like a great place to start cost-cutting to me!!

[blueloo]

Tunguska...what cost administering them....? Virtually nil. Anyway, in the grand scheme of things of probably only 10-15 pilots a year, its really a piddle in the ocean. Given that QF have been employing around what 200odd ish pilots a year, there are plenty of other spots up for grab......if you cant get in to the 200 spots available to experienced entrants, do you really think that the last 15 or so spots make a great deal of difference ?

[Ronnie Honker]

For openers, I don't quite see how the title of this thread reflects your observation(s) and comments, Scooter.

As with ALL pilots, S.O's also have minimum standards that they must consistently meet.

My guess is that the young gentleman whose acquaintance you had the pleasure of meeting at the bbq was proud of the conditions he was enjoying, in spite of the attempts of our non-qualified CEO to destroy them.

Why are some cabin attendants paid more than S.O's, in light of the fact that S.O's are higher up in the chain of responsibility command of the aircraft on which they work?

Why is Dixon paid more than the P.M. of Australia, or the US President?

Why are YOU (Scooter) paid less than other pilots who have less overall airline experience than YOU?

[Scooter]

Ronnie Honker.

As a humble B744 F/O living in HK I dare say that yes,there may be a handful of pilots up here with less experience earning more money - and good on them!
I dont begrudge them a cent of it.

I dare say that if you are a B744 Captain in Qantas then I may be earning similar pay to yourself,but I have to live in HK.
That was my choice that myself and my family freely accepted.

The point I make is that why should a pilot that receives alot less training and has less authority earn more than one that is not only trained and checked to a somewhat higher standard,but works alot harder?

Blueloo - you and Ronnie Honker wouldnt happen to be former cadets would you now?
Blue,it may only cost a pittance to administer but as a shareholder I believe it is an unnecessary waste.
Lets face it guys, if your pay-rise was theoretically contingent upon the scrapping the cadet scheme you would support it and so would 99% of your co-workers!

Getting back to the topic at hand,good on this S/O for earning the money he did.
He was obviously so proud of the conditions he works under he was proud to flaunt his extra pay in the face of not only the lesser paid host of the party but all of his friends of similar age and rank within earshot.

Lets face it people - the guy was a complete tosser but it really makes you think hard about the inequity of the Qf award system.

[blueloo]

Scooter - I believe Cadets pay $120k. roughly. I think you will find they (QF) wouldnt undertake such an exercise if it wasnt cost neutral.

As for being cadets and or defending them - i generally will speak up when anyone puts forward a ill thought out remark - just like people do, if I make similar statements. Stick you head out, and someone will lop it off! Its the Australian thing to do isnt it?


The airline employs people from different backgrounds, be it cadets, air force or GA. Just like other industries. The reason - who knows.... maybe its balance - a vast number of Australian pilots have chips on their shoulders - some think their gods gift to aviation - If QF or any other airline employ from all areas available to them surely they will get a balance of employees - and not a festering of one particular industry group.

Have you ever thought QF may actually have a reason for Cadets - and before you answer with remarks such as nepotism - think about what the criterea was to get into the cadet program, and what it is now. Also remember, they have to pass the same skills and psych tests which everyone else has to pass.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Why don't you guys compare apples with apples?

Fact: SO's generally get paid less per hour than any FO who has been in the company for the same amount of time.

If they take home more it is solely due to overtime, of which there is ample on the 744. In fact, pretty much 90% of the flying involves overtime for SO's.

If you don't work overtime you don't get it. That is where the discrepancy comes in. Fair enough?

[ruprecht]

But 744 SO's do get more per hour than 330, 747 and 767 SO's and those apples suck! :hmm:

[Poto]

G'day Scooter if you are a 744 F/O then I can only assume that you are familiar with overtime

are you saying a second officer is a life form too low to receive overtime for the extended periods of duty that these aircraft regularly fly to, or is the Wailer yelling
"Whoop Whoop wind up" again:zzz:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Ruprecht, 744 Capt get paid more than A330, 747 and 767 Captains too.

Whats your point?

[OBNO]

TCOB

I think the point is anyone who is a Captain or indeed FO on A330, B744, 747, 767 or whatever chose to knowing the conditions and life style it entailed. SO's unfortunatley, end up on their aircraft based on luck (or not) of the day one lottery. Lets face it, with the current restrictions on the SO's role now the jobs are pretty similar - inflight relief. Yes - much of the additional pay is made up of overtime - good luck to them. But, to be on different payscales seems a bit rich. If anyone should be on the higher payscale, it should be the Classic SO's, who spend twice as long training and have to hold an additional licence with associated the Sims for the Flight Engineers Panel!

[Chris Higgins]

Rather than blaming the Second Officer in question, has anyone made a serious effort lately to bring the wages up to par on say..the 73' F/O scale?

[Skypatrol]

I agree with Scooter. It still amazes me that the most senior S/O is able to earn than the most junior F/O, let alone a large bulk of 400 S/O's earning more than a lot of F/O's on the 73/767's and even the classic.

That's the conditions we work under and good luck to the S/O's but the attitude some of them display is a disgrace, simply becasue they lucked in to the 'mother ship'. They are the most highly paid radio operators in the world yet some (most have a good attitude) have an attitude that they are higher beings than F/Os on the "light twins" when most of that group are too scared to take an F/O slot anyway!

The hardest working S/O's are on the Classic who after a 6 month training course on rubbish pay, they then rotate for a fair time with rosters and do the relief work for the F/E, all this while the 400 guys sleep half the sector to LA.....

[Crusty Demon]

The only S/O's in QF earning more than other F/O's in some cases are those on the 400. It comes as a result of overtime that stems from the award they operate under. They are on a similar rate of pay to other type S/O's, just they gross a lot more due to sector lengths. To deny them the overtime would be pretty hard to justify without then taking it away from Capts and FO's. Some major tinkering with the award would then have to be made.

At the end of the day, lots of 400 FO's also gross a lot more than Captains on other types. If the system needs changing, it will affect more than just SO's. Perhaps the pay scales on the other types should be lifted.

Perhaps also QF should take a leaf out of other airlines books and operate the 400 with either 2 Capt, 2 FO or 1 Capt, 2 FO, 1 SO. At the end of the day they (QF) are reasonably cheap compared to other airlines in terms of crewing costs due to two SO's being carried. It would also give a lot of overpaid SO's FO positions.

[Angle of Attack]

Yeah and it doesnt help that there is an oversupply of F/O's on the 737 now and their hours are quite low, compared to relatively high hours on the 400 S/O ranks at the moment. This contributes to a higher disaprity in the amount of dollars earnt......

[1013]

I hear what Scooter is saying and agree that there is a problem in the system when the average B744 S/O gets paid more than any FO on another type.

In-flight relief, although important operationally should be paid according to the qualifications and level of training required for the position.
In this case the difference is huge and it would give S/O's motivation for promotion rather than promote mediocrities which is an accurate expression judging by the number of 10+ year S/O's QF have that have refused to bid for promotion due to the cushy nature of the job.

CX had a system whereby all F/O's, S/O's and Captains were paid the same rate, regardless of fleet.
I agree that the B747-300 S/O's have to work alot harder and are trained as relief engineers -their training takes twice the time of their B744 counterparts..
The fact they are paid a lower rate is abysmal and something Qantas should rectify.
Ditto with the guys on the A330 and B767.

Poto, I dont believe this to be a wind up at all and if anything it outlines the need for the Qantas crew pay system to be restructured more equitably - wouldnt you agree?

Scooter, I hear what you are saying and if anything you guys are too polite.
If I were a young bloke at a party being told by some knob that they were chumps for taking promotion and getting paid less I would have taken him outside and dropped him!
What an insensitive fool.

What makes matters worse I cant believe other guys are defending this fool and the system that nurtures this attitude.

[Poto]

Sorry don't agree. S/O's are not paid a higher hourly rate than a F/O. As stated elsewhere its the overtime that kicks in which makes the difference. Besides on other fleet types such as the Bus or Classic some S/O's generally don't see much more than Base pay due to lack of flying.

Should a 744 S/O be paid less for doing what is essentially more flying.:confused:

Apart from a few "life-stylers" I believe the majority of S/O's cannot wait for a window seat. :ok:

[bushy]

Some of you blokes sound like some of our indigenous brethren, who get "sit down money"
RFDS pilots get paid about one third, or a quarter of what an SO gets.

[TIMMEEEE]

Apart from a few "life-stylers" I believe the majority of S/O's cannot wait for a window seat

Poto you gotta be pissing me!!
Just check the seniority numbers and you'll find the "few" life-stylers are in clear and definite abundance.

Hundreds of these guys have had more than an ample opportunity to apply for F/O positions in the previous years but chose instead to ride the gravy train.

I agree these guys that choose to stay are mediocrities and in the end lifestyle only goes so far.

Good on the guys that took promotion when it was available.

Bushy put things perfectly into perspective for me Poto so stop yer bloody whinging son!

[Poto]

Abundance perhaps but certainly not majority "Timbo". Besides who cares, I am not Whinging. Bushy is right RFDS guys should be paid more. Flying a drunken 'brethren' with a stubbed toe to the city before pay day at three in the morning, sux; exactly how does that mean an S/O should not receive overtime on a long haul sector I don't know? You explain please?:confused:

[Sonny Hammond]

Riding the gravy train...

Whats wrong with that? Everyone else in QF exploits the joint to the nth degree. As usual pilots who are seen as not doing it as hard as others are lambasted.
Who is the idiot?

Also don't lose sight of the fact that this cost cutting position results in the company saving money . Two F/O's would be more expensive.

Finally, to those who haven't spent 12+ hours crewing a plane on a regular basis, take it from me as I have, you want overtime.

[MrWooby]

Timmee, get a life. Most of the SO's at the top of the seniority list have been FO"s and Capts elsewhere, why would anyone choose to work harder and have more responsibilty for less money. In any other industry people choose the job based on which position gives them the most money, even if it means less job satisfaction.

For your information, most of the senior SO's do want to promote asap, but they won't to promote to the aircraft type of their choice. Lifestyle doesn't mean minimum work, it means choosing between shorthaul ops, lots of sectors and less time away from home or those who prefer longer trips.

[speedjet]

And what about the Dash-8 Captains and First Officers. Also have to pass QF Psych and Skills, Do Sims and line checks to same standards as QF, yet are paid less than a mainline Flight Attendant. Where is the fairness in this.

I can see the hours worked are less for Regionals but what about the 6 sector days with sectors as short as 12 minutes.

[Prop Sync]

Law of nature number 1, life ain't fair. You can spend the rest of your life crying over all the inequities, or get over it now.

P.S. MrWooby has it spot on.

[Tunguska]

Prop Sync and Mr Wooby sound like the mediocrities and dead-wood pilots that are spoken about on this web site.
If you guys want to be reconciled to the back seat so to speak then all the better for motivated pilots that want promotion and joined to do just that - fly !!

To quote one very very senior former QF Captain mate of mine,
"Any second officer that stays in their position for more than 5 years and has had the opportunity for promotion previously isnt worth a pinch of sh1t and bloody hard to train"

I wasnt aware that when QF recruits they look for permanent second officers in some cases!
SO much for looking for motivated pilots as they state on their recruitment website.

Agree with Tim wholeheartedly.
Pilots not wanting promotion arent worth a pinch of the proverbial.
The longer you guys fester down the back the harder eventual promotion will be and the further you guys are distanced from reality.

[OhSpareMe]

Well Folks, I have finally registered to take part in this forum, so I can now wade into the 'No-SO-should-be-paid-more-than-an-FO' debate.

A little bit of education is needed here.

Firstly, QF Second Officers are not PAID more than their FO counterparts. I know that might be difficult to get through to some, but that is the fact. They might EARN more, but they certainly are not PAID more. FO hourly rate is higher than an equivalent incremental SO rate. In comparing the gross annual salaries of FO to SO one has to take into account the differences in divisor (i.e. the number of credited hours worked in each 8 week bid period). Over the last few years the divisor for QF B744 SO has been averaging around 170-175 hours. At the current bid period it is 165 hours. From my recollection the divisor of 767 FO sits around 160 hours. So at the end of the year the B744 SO may GROSS more salary because he/she has ended up WORKING more credited hours. Throw in the overtime factor and it is not too hard to GROSS more than a 767 FO.

You cannot compare B744 SO salary to that of a 737 FO because they are working to different contracts. End of story. Anyone who goes to the Shorthaul fleet and bleats about their salary only has themselves to blame.

Now - onto that 'promotion' issue. There is a contract (the Longhaul Certified Agreement) which permits individuals the right to volunteer for advertised positions when and where they see fit to do so. SO's are not the only people who choose to exercise this option in that manner. THere are any number of Captains who do not take up positions on larger aircraft because, I assume, it doesn't suit their LIFESTYLE.

As for being difficult to train after 5 years - that is a matter of personal opinion, and my opinion is that it is a crock. I imagine it must have been soooooo difficult to train all the current Captains who endured, through no fault of their own, lengthy periods as SO.

I have been a SO for over four years now. I throughly enjoy the job, and I do not get worked up about whether or not I am a 'real pilot' because I don't take off/land. I will look for a promotion to FO in due course, probaby in the next two years depending upon what is on offer. The fact that I might take home more money than an equivalent 767 FO is amusing and highlights an inequity in the system. I don't give a toss about the differential between mine and a 737 FO salary. Different ballgame alltogether.

To all of you bleaters out there - if you don't like what is happening with SO's then go and change the Contract. Simple. It is not the fault of the individuals. I am the first to admit that the salary situation could be improved. But I don't see anyone attempting to do that.

Mediocre? I don't think so. I consider myself to be an integral part of a longhaul crew who is exercising choices afforded to him under the Contract . The backseat crewmember (as you lot put it) is just as important as the control seat occupants.

[ruprecht]

You were doing really well until:
The backseat crewmember (as you lot put it) is just as important as the control seat occupants.
To quote 'The Castle':

"Get your hand off it, Daryl"

[Poto]

Actually "OhSpareMe"

you pretty much summed it all.

Ruprie: The way I see it the person(s) in the back are just as important. They audit the guys in the front. These Guys may have not done a T/O or Landing for a month and may not have been into the particular port for many months. Under these circumstances a safer condition is achieved with 3/4 brains watching the shop- not important you say.

By the way there is only two on deck for the crz- is a second officer not important?:confused:
I think your hand is on it Pal
:yuk:

[ruprecht]

Poto,

I'm not saying that SO's aren't important, after all they are third in command:rolleyes: but to say that they're just as important as the captain and the FO is just plain ludicrous.

Sure, an extra set of eyes is always useful, but if they were necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft then wouldn't they be carried on every flight? Gee, how do the 767 guys cope if they're operating 2 pilot and neither of them have been to the destination in a couple of weeks.

As an SO I do my job, monitor what's going on and speak up when I need to, but I don't lose sleep wondering how they do it without me!

ruprecht.

[OhSpareMe]

I don't lose any sleep over it either. I just consider myself to be a significant team member, and not a back seat passenger who speaks up only when he needs to. Most crews (and we are talking about the Capt and FO here) that I fly with value my contribution and presence, and consider me an equal member of the team.

You, Ruprecht, are equally important as any other member of the team responsible for moving the jet from A to B. Hell, they can't log their overtime without you can they? In my book that alone makes me seriously important.

[ruprecht]

Fine, we're all as important as each other.

I need a group hug.:D

ruprecht.

PS. If I'm as important as the captain, then I'm seriously underpaid!

[Ibol]

Bushy & Speedjet.

I am sick of hearing about "poor RFDS pilots getting one quarter of the pay of QF S/O's"

OR

"poor Dash-8 Captains and First Officers who also have to pass QF Psych and Skills, Do Sims and line checks to same standards as QF, yet are paid less than a mainline Flight Attendant.

WAH WAH :{ :{

If you don't like it GET A BETTER JOB!! Get an S/O job (IF YOU CAN!!!)

Don't whinge about what you don't have. Get off your AR$E and make it happen.

[bulkhead]

Ibol

Spoken like a true pratt.
No wonder people make fun of Qantas Skygods like yourself.

For your information the "poor old RFDS pilot" as you put it has to display a high degree of skill and judgement and make serious decisions on a regular basis and often after having being woken at all hours.
A respectable job that is not only essential but also saves many lives as well as serving the community (unlike yourself Ibol).

Despite what you might think many aviators chose this employer for a number of reasons such as the challenge, camaraderie, living in the bush as well as a sense of community.
The pay is secondary as long as those employed can make ends meet.

Think carefully next time Ibol before opening your very well fed trap!

[Casper]

Well said, bulkhead!

[1013]

Couldnt have put it better myself Bulkhead.

Ibol me thinks needs a dose of reality tempered with a dash of humility.

Were you the kid that used to get bashed and never had any lunch money because the big boys took it from you Ibol?
Stop being so god-damned sanctimonious.

[Calligula]

Gents.

Ibol is obviously a windup, designed to pander to anti-QF sentiment on this forum.

I do not know any S/O's who have his attitude.

[Karunch]

I will chuckle to myself as I walk past the 55 year old Qf second officer (Ibol) at Ciq at some point in the future.

[Skypatrol]

Ibol is a clown.

The RFDS/Regionals would be a much more challenging and rewarding job than flying from A to B. If money was no issue, most guys would be there instead!

[Angle of Attack]

And Skypatrol has summed it up perfectly, if money wasnt an issue Im sure most S/O's wouldnt want to do A to B flying at all. Unfortunately this is a revolving record argument, because money is part of the issue and everyone is at different stages of life and have different opinions on whats important and whats not. Yeah overtime is deserved I guess, but still when considering the overall package lets bring on wage increases for F/O's, unfortunately with new low cost caririers, new IR reforms, etc, this is more a dream than reality........

Now lets get to the serious issue why wont anyone accept my offer of employment as an S/O for my car?? Judging by the age of my bomb it would equate to an S/O in a 747-200 lol. Jeez I cant wind the window down while driving, and changing my radio station is a safety issue, godamn i need an S/O! I could even install a galley in the rear seats! And they could hand over the money when I order a junior burger at Macca's now thats essential requirements.. Wow Im on to something now, but Ill only employ you on an individual agreement... thats the future you know!:ok:

[Barberspole-5]

Great people overall with good attitudes until a twenty something year old QF second officer rocked up bragging about how much more he got paid compared to the 737 FO's.

But I thought QF "handpicked" professional "future captains", who were "stable extroverts".

This SO w@nker doesnt sound very social,stable or professional. What person bags the crap out of the HOST of a party they're invited to?

Hopefully the guys who interview me will also be my god parents

:yuk:

[ys120fz]

Poto (page 2 post) please tell me that "pal" is not making a comeback as a term used by airline pilots, particularly when addressed to a person who is quite obviously not your "pal".

How tragically immature it is and reminds me of the red headed Irish fool who headed the AFAP many years ago. Every second word was "pal". Probably wore a baseball cap too, with the sunglasses pushed up on the peak even when the sun was shining brightly.

It's similar to a FA using "like" in every sentence. If you want to be treated as a professional would wish to be treated, then speak as a professional speaks. Don't speak or behave like a westie.

[Poto]

Dude, sorry "pal" is this some feable attempt to get an '89 debate into this thread.
:{
WTF is wrong with you:yuk: