Easterns/Sunstate Q400?

[Ejector]

Is Easterns or Sunstate going to operate QantasLinks 7 Q400's?

E

[spinout]

SSHHH It's a big secret... Sunstate Pilots agreed to a 7% pay rise to operate it, that’s about $6,000... Eastern Pilots EBA is STILL being negotiated, me thinks the AFAP and Qantas are in bed together i.e. they delayed Eastern's EBA for over 16 months just so they could get the easy option finished first...
To answer your question at this stage both Sunstate and Eastern are to operate the 400 but who will be first no one knows… my guess is Sunstate by an eba
:hmm:

[Pimp Daddy]

but who will be first no one knows… my guess is Sunstate by an eba

Actually, it's been fairly common knowledge that Sunnies are up for the first 3-4 aircraft. That's why the first of type and all that malarky is all being done on Sunnies' AOC.

I would also have a punt that Sunnies get all 7.

I guess now thier EBA is done and dusted some info will finally be forthcoming from Commercial on routes etc. Rumours abound of some sort of announcement this week.

Although I dare say Sunnies could use up 7 aircraft just servicing their Rocky, Mackay and Gladstone runs.

[Capn Bloggs]

Yeh, really looking forward to rocketing down through those 40deg thermals at 350kts or whatever the pint sized excuse for a real airliner does...NOT! Virgin 737 here I come.

[badboiblu]

Watch for the announcements this week. Two new runs for Sunnies. BNE-MKY-BNE BNE-CBR-BNE Plus a heap more pilots.

[Poto]

Can't see a 72 seater doing the western runs in Qld Bloggsy.

Probably be 'rocketing down through' the same thermals as a VB73. :}

If Sunnies pick up MKY/CBR & BMA?
good luck to them. Looks like an awesome machine. Better than a clapped out 100 series:ok:

[wayne_king]

Announcements this week will come thick and fast;
69 new services a week, servicing Adelaide, Port Lincoln and Kangaroo island, as well as the above mentioned QLD flying.

7% for the 400 is a disgrace. The AFAP should hang their heads in shame for agreeing to the deal in principle and commending it to the pilot group. The excuse that the pilots voted for it and so it has nothing to do with the union holds no water. It all depends on how it's presented, and with the union talking like dummy sitting on Geoff Dixon's lap, it's little wonder blokes voted yes; They had the **** scarred out of them by their on side!

For an aircraft that's twice as big as the one currently being paid for in the EBA, and 40% faster, a 7% pay rise doesn't quite compute. But the deal north of the border's done and Sunnies have had their last bite of the cherry, so 93000 is as good as it's going to get here.

As far as ALL the aeroplanes going to SSA i don't think so. But the bluff will sit nicely in the hope that the EAA boys and girls swallow the EBA. No doubt the AFAP will be down there selling the virtues of 7%, and of course harping on about how that's what sunnies are getting! The irony of course is that there was no opportunity for the pilot groups to talk about a 400 rate prior to the deal being done, but now that 7% is struck up north, i'm sure EAA will be told they have to accept the northern rate.

That too of course is untrue, and the only hope of a decent rate being struck for the biggest aircraft the regionals are ever going to see now lies in the hands of EAA. Hopefully sense will prevail there and the 7% won't be accpeted.

:ugh:

[Doctor Smith]

Well Written, Wayne.
Of course QF went for the weakest Link in SSA because they knew Eastern pilots have backbone aand would have rejected 7% just like they'll probably reject the shonky secret EBA deal.
No wonder Eastern's pilots are looking for a different union, The AFAP are nothing more than a bunch of F%$king QF management sympathisers.

Shame AFAP Shame:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[apacau]

They will want the Q400 for SY-CB and possibly CB-ML, so I'd be surprised if EAA didn't get any of them.

CB-BN is interesting though! Is this to boost frequency offpeak?

[hoss]

Just got the sms for the new base, ADL. Looks like wayne_king is correct with the first announcement.

Interesting times, :)

[Chocks Away]

mmmm
First 2 - 3 Q400s to Sunnies, flooding the coastal milk run market with capacity out of BN to Cairns and down to Melb out of Newcastle.
Canberra base also on the cards with legs to Adelaide/SY/BN/Melb.
The Townsville refueller told me...:D
Good luck fellas.
Top airframe and speeds... hope the conditions reflect it.

[Stick Pusher]

I would have thought that even though the union may have agreed in principal to 7% that would always be subject to the pilots final vote to accept or reject...? or have they already voted to accept this token amount for no good reason with no regard of self worth?

Be a very good chance to start raising the bar with award rates within our industry. I'm sure all other airlines are trying or if not should bloody be trying strongly to turn the tide of wage rot in this country. big picture...

Just interesting...

good luck!

SP

[Pimp Daddy]

or have they already voted to accept

Yes, has been accepted.

Latest info talking to the engineers is first 5 400s for Sunnies.

Of course all subject on commercial actually deciding routes of which as you see there is much speculation.

[badboiblu]

Hey Stick Pusher you say
"Be a very good chance to start raising the bar with award rates within our industry. I'm sure all other airlines are trying or if not should bloody be trying strongly to turn the tide of wage rot in this country." l totally agree with you. But what chance did the Sunnies boys have when main line boys got zip for the 800's...Jet* get zip for the A320's...main line International struggling with any deal on the A380's and all had trade offs.
Have not seen the sunnies deals as yet, but l hear no trade off and some gains...and yes only 7% extra for the 400's plus 3 by 3%.
Don't forget in Qantas eyes the 400 is the same type as the 1 2 and 300's.
So for 100 pilots l think they have raised the bar a little... Now let Eastern of 200 pilots raise it further...and before you say they have set the bench mark, where did Eastern set the bar 3/4 years ago when they signed there last EBA...then see where Virgin of 5/600 pilots, Jetstar with 300 to ~ and Qantas mainline with 2000 odd can take it. My money is on nowhere. So don't blame them so fast this time around. All pilot groups have signed EBA's over the last few years and will continue for the next few and all with new types continually coming online. Didn't see them do any better. In fact they achieved less.
The only way to achieve better l believe is one union in time and align our EBA's to fall due at the same time. But what chance of Qantas letting this happen. Lets not fight ourselves, we all know who the enemy is.

[Stick Pusher]

I didn't say they have set the bench mark, I'm hoping they have a chance to raise it start to trun the tide. This goes out to all pilots groups in all airlines. The new type is already coming, so they need some one to fly them i would think.

As far as Qantas goes they are stupid if they think a 400 is the same as a 200 - hello. But up to your union to push, sell it debate all that. As for Jet * dont' get me started...

Instead of getting companies to say they're paying this (ie less), we need to say they getting paid this (ie more)

What I'm saying is that from now on we all need to change, and improve on what's gone on in the past. It will take alot to turn the tide, but little by little we'll have to start heading north, not south - that's all...

Regards,

SP

;) ;)

[badboiblu]

Point taken Stick Pusher.

l just get a little touchy when people hang it on the Sunnies guys and gals for this or that. l worked there a few years ago before moving onto mainline. They are a great bunch of people " like most companies l guess" but there life style is better than most l have seen. That goes for main line, Jet* Virgin or who ever.

So as l said before, for a group of 100+ pilots they are doing ok.
Great life style for work and living, raised the bar a little and given nothing.

Now let all others do the same.

[b55]

I can't believe there is an expectation from some of you that the smallest group of "fish" in the OZ airline's sea is to take on the management "sharks" in the BIG battle to turn everything around for all OZ pilots! Especially, after what has been done by larger groups of QF mainline pilots, VB's and jet*'s in recent years !

Are you looking for someone elses backbone to lean on or a sacrificial lamb to give the big boys some guts to do their own hard work ? Those old formula's of seats x speed = pay died in 1989. IR reform in the airlines has been taking place since then. You just didn't understand it.

Sunnies pilots are generally the happiest bunch of pilots I've ever come across. Their EBA was voted overwhelmingly in favour. New toys for old ones for the Sunnies kids, more pay to do the same thing, no conditions traded off, more jobs, more commands for F/O's. More money in paradise would be nice but not necessary and not worth the loss of the "happiness" factor.

EAA and Sunnies do the same thing but they are world's apart. Sunnies isn't in their "war". As far away as Iraq really !

[Stick Pusher]

agreed badboiblu.

b55, should it matter how big the pilot group is (look at RFDS, Pearl)? I think not. Am i'm not debating happiness or lifestyle.That's not my point.

Every pilot group should try to start to change the tide that's all. it's not an outrageous statement by any means.

"Are you looking for someone elses backbone to lean on or a sacrificial lamb to give the big boys some guts to do their own hard work" -no not at all, settle...

SP:ok:

[wayne_king]

Unfortunately, i think the days of paradise are fast closing. There's been a marked change in the last 18 months, and the camp is not as happy as it once was. And i fear there's worse to come.

Anyone who can't see a single AOC coming has there head buried. Sunnies is getting dragged into the "war" whether we like it or not. And the Generals down south running the show arn't going to think twice about "easternising" northern management. And once that happens the last remaining happiness goes bye bye altogether. Just ask the Southern guys what happened.

And this isn't about line pilots, this is about **** management pilots trying to impress their corporate bosses by screwing their colleagues. Every inch that can be squeezed in so called efficiencies will be, the by product, pilot group unhappiness is acceptable. What they refuse to admit is an unhappy pilot group costs them a fortune, but because it can't be easily quantified it doesn't exist. What i can say from personal experience is that i now cost them a lot more then i used to, i still operate entirely with the SOP's but i just don't go any further than the bear essentials, and it's cost at least my salary in diversions, fuel, disruption, cancellations, late aircraft, passenger dissatisfaction etc. I'm not thrilled about doing it, but i can say that when you stop caring your life at work becomes a lot more relaxed.

"No conditions traded off", Not quite B55, but a spin that the Company and AFAP would like you to believe. At the end of the day it's simple, we could have all gotten more. And when i say that i don't mean $40000 more i just mean at least getting to 6 figures. It's a game of bluff, and we folded way too early. They came to us with a deal of 2%+2%+1% over 3 years for the 400. This was resoundingly rejected. Within 2 days the deal was 7% straight up, infinitely better. What would have another rejection gotten? Well we'll never know, but hopefully the EAA pilots will.

[hoss]

heard a rumour that 'Sunnies' have accepted drafting in the EBA, any truth to that one?

'all crew to report to crewing;) '..............:)

[b55]

W_K,
Bluff....? Sounds like you've been watching "World Poker" on T.V. too often. They bluff there for the fun of it and all of them playing can afford to lose. E.B.A. is not a game of "bluff". It's a game of bargaining. I hadn't heard of their 2%+2%+1% over 3 years initial offer but, you've agreed that the final 7% straight up was "infinitely better". That's bargaining.
Sounds like you've become a better and safer pilot with your change of attitude anyway for all concerned. Good on you.
S-P,
RFDS and Pearl are "closed shops". Their managements realistically have no where else to turn to for numbers of quick, alternative pilots. SSA and EAA are dealing with Qantas and they hold 3 out of the 4 aces on that bargaining point; 1. SSA vs. EAA (most EAA pilots would jump at the chance to move to Bris.) 2. Airlink(NJS) (NJS would love to get back on the east coast) 3. Jet* (willing to do anything if it makes them bigger).
Bluffing wouldn't get you very much.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

(most EAA pilots would jump at the chance to move to Bris.)

And just how do you come to that conclusion?

[badboiblu]

Well main line voted there EBA up.
So l don't think Sunnies are that weak after all.
They got more than we did by far.
So Eastern guys see if you can change the world...good luck.

[b55]

Sue Ridgepipe,
In answer your question above, okay you maybe got me on the use of the word "most". It was used entirely on the assumption that the average EAA pilot is as smart as the average person in N.S.W. where the A.B.S. shows the net migration from N.S.W. to Qld. has been and is still strongly northbound. However, I gave the question to a Qlink mate. There have been several(5?) EAA pilots that have taken transfers northbound to Bris. but, no SSA pilots southbound to Sydney. These ex-EAA pilots say its the best decision made by them. Also, says that the pilot intergration talks between EAA and SSA pilots a few years ago, seemed to be "mostly" driven by the EAA pilots desire to get as many positions in Bris. for themselves, thus those talks did't get very far.
Question for you ; Where would you rather live,work and fly out of, Sydney or Brisbane? Brisbane would be my choice, no question on that!

[speedjet]

B55

There is only 3 ex-EAA pilots currently flying with SS, however there seems to be a growing number of ex-EAA Flight Attendants coming to SS.
I think in the near future there won't be too many more EAA pilots employed at SS. That's just my opinion.

Also I don't think too many guys were happy with the 7%, however I think most of us conceded that QF would not offer any more than that and accepted the deal to ensure job security. Who knows, if we knocked it back we could of had a reducing workforce as NJS could get -400 as SS -100's are phased out.

[grrowler]

Hopefully I'm as smart as the average person in N.S.W, and it isn't difficult to see that SSA + EAA pilots is infinately better than SSA vs EAA. Taking away one of managements aces so to speak.

It's got nothing to do with taking away QLD positions, its got to do with a united workforce. What do you think will happen if (a big if) EAA threatens industrial action now? Use SSA pilots until they tow the line?

SSA can't escape QF management buggery, no employee of the Qantas group can. Maybe it will hurt less coping one from behind when your head is firmly buried in the sand. At least you won't see it coming.

[newsensation]

The integration agreement that was proposed between SSA and EAA gave protection to ALL existing SSA pilots as of the cutoff date, which meant that the only way anyone for the first 5 years could transfer to SSA would be as an FO at a base that no existing FO wanted. All existing FO’s in SSA would have preference on any Commands that came up in SSA.
As I understand the Southern Pilots have assimilated into EAA quite well, the EAA pilots that are with SSA had to resign from EAA and be interviewed etc. so not really a transfer.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

b55

My personal preference would be Sydney, but that's just me. I just think it's wrong to assume that most people want to go to Brisbane because some Eastern guys have moved to Sunstate in the past. It's only been a handful (3 if speedjet is on the money), so this doesn't really support your argument.

I also think you'll find that very few Melbourne based Eastern guys would be interested in moving to Brisbane, but I may be wrong.

[b55]

Hmmm.... With the announcement of the South Australia new runs and an Adelaide base for the Dash 8, it will be interesting to see how many Eastern Sydney pilots go for Adelaide. Are there bids out yet for this?

[hoss]

Yes the bid forms are out, infact the bid closes tomorrow!

From my observation there does not seem to be as much interest in ADL as I would have thought. Probably the short notice has something to do with this.

And for the record I have no interest in a CNS or BNE base, I love to visit the places and many great memories but I'll stay in SYD or maybe ADL ;) .

[Hugh Jarse]

Hoss,

When I had the opportunity to meet some of the SSA crews earlier this year, the topic of EAA pilots wanting to "come and take our spots" was raised by most that I met. I did what I could to try and dispel this myth, hopefully with some success.

We also discussed base protection, as written elsewhere on this thread by newsensation. Not many seemed to be aware that any integration would have some sort of base protection clause (which works both ways). Both pilot groups expectations of base opportunities and promotion must be taken care of.

IMHO, the statement that Most EAA pilots would jump at a chance to move to Bris" is vicious scaremongering, spread by one senior individual in SSA, and he has no evidence to back this up. :yuk:

I prefer SY too, Hoss :E

[Raider1]

Cant see too many being needed on the BNE CBR run.......the QF 73-400's are attracting very good loads

[b55]

This topic's thread turned to the idea that Sunnies pilots had no "backbone" to BLUFF ?! their way to $100,000 + salary for the Dash 8-400. Because SSA pilots soldout for a low $93,000 "with no regard of self worth", now it is left up to EAA pilots to fight alone the IR battle for Qf regionals.
The only voice of reason was given by Badboiblu, an ex-SSA pilot.
Knowing a few of the Sunnies pilots, I didn't think they would get involved with such B.S., so I waded in.
The fact is, you can buy a house or unit in Bris. or Cairns for $200-300,000. In Cairns, you live in outer suburbs or the northern beaches and drive to work in 10-15 minutes, at the speed limit.
The extra $10,000-15,000 gross that Sydney EAA pilots desparately seem to need,(for their self worth) is made up for in the cost of living differences in Qld.
That B.S. had to be answered for.
Good luck to the EAA pilots on their E.B.A. Hope you get what you are looking for.

[newsensation]

If one was looking to place blame on anyone for the lack of adequate pay for the Q400 it should be placed on the SSA negotiators and the AFAP they are the ones that prepared the deal and told the troops to accept it, why the AFAP could not unite EAA and SSA under and EBA with the same conditions is a mystery or is it….:hmm:

[apacau]

IF they do the BN-CB run, it will be to boost frequency IMO. When the 146s were flying they had 6 daily flights - now at 4x 737s. My guess would be 1-2 daily DH4s off peak. CB-AD could also do with a middle of the day Dash service.

[wayne_king]

B55, I'm really not sure where your dislike of EAA pilots stems from, but given you don't work for either airline i'm positive it's misplaced. So is this notion that EAA pilots want to mass migrate north and steal command., Hugh's on the money here and it is just the ranting of one misguided SSA pilot who can't seem to understand that he's doing Oldmeadow's work by dividing the groups.

However, you've almost got the point where you say;

" The extra $10,000-15,000 gross that Sydney EAA pilots desparately seem to need,(for their self worth) is made up for in the cost of living differences in Qld."

EXCEPT, i think you'll find that the EAA guys don't need the extra for their "self worth", but rather because the cost of living is so much more. I think if a SSA base is offered in Sydney to work our arse of on the 400 for 93000 there won't be a rush of people to get down there.

The whole point is that if we all stuck together we'd all get more, as you're not effected either way, you can take you divisive comments and go talk **** elsewhere
:hmm:

[b55]

W-K,
Hey, a bit of balance here please, W_K. My "talking ****" PALES next to others in this topic; for example,

Spinout , "...just so they could get the EASY OPTION (SSA) finished first."

W_K,"...hang their heads IN SHAME."
"...They (SSA) had the **** SCARED OUT OF THEM by their
own side."
"sunnies have had THEIR LAST bite of the cherry..."
"...ONLY hope of a decent rate...now lies in the hands of
EAA."

Doctor Smith,"Of course, QF went for the WEAKEST LINK in SSA
because they knew EASTERN PILOTS HAVE
BACKBONE."

Stick Pusher, "...or have they (SSA) already voted to accept this
token amount for NO GOOD REASON WITH NO
REGARD OF SELF WORTH?"
I have no reasons what so ever to dislike EAA pilots.(don't know any to dislike!) My only feelings would be a general respect for them as professional airline pilots. Perception is Reality and if I gave you the wrong perception on this than I do apologise for that. Just trying to find out the reality of the truth in the middle of all this topic.(Most interesting one at the moment)
Acouple of unanswered questions ;
What is " drafting " in the EBA? (asked above)
If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified? I would certainly agree that if you guys were all one group then your strength in greater numbers would have helped you out this EBA.
Are you sure you're "more relaxed", W_K ? I can personally recommend several therapy counsellors that will do you the world of good!!!

[newsensation]

If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified?

Good Question, the misinformation and lies spread from the AFAP rep:(

[badboiblu]

Anyway after all this chest beating on who's or where is better.
And who's got a bigger man hood.
Where are the eastern guys up to with there EBA?

[grrowler]

b55,

The FA's already have drafting in their EBA and it sucks for them. Basically whenever the company is not able to crew flights due to a lack of reserves (read too stingy to employ enough staff) they can force the FA's to complete a further couple of sectors after their rostered shift. So much for planning your life outside work when your shifts get blown out by 3-4 hours :mad:

bbb, should be something out this week for us to have a look at.

[Jethro]

Some facts:

The Integration Agreement between SAA and EAA was about as fair as they come and drawn up by those with some experience in such matters.
Datal seniority respected; 3 year base protection for each group; route expansion clauses; equipment protection clauses; no downtraining of any Dash 8 crew. Most if not all crew then employed in SAA at the date of Integration attained command status prior to the expiry of the Agreement and the removal of base protection.

Yes, the SAA 146 crew were hard done by overall, but this was more to do with the advent of Impulse/Jetstar taking over the 146 routes, than the amalgamation of SAA/EAA and could not be levelled at anything in the integration agreement. The most generous of all the conditions was EAA management's decision to avoid downtraining. Dash 8 command positions were increased and excess leave used to avoid downscaling and penalty to any crew member. A pretty generous thing to do..

SSA were involved in the negotiations from the start and a 5 year base protection condition was agreed for them. The negotiators were not very interested because it didn't directly affect them and they only offered lip-service. They balked in the end because integration with Impulse was not achieved - one of the conditions they insisted on.

5 years base protection would have easily seen all the SSA F/Os achieve Command status ahead of any EAA/SAA crew member who was interested in bidding for a BNE/CNS position.
On a good day, there'd be 10 out of 200 possibles in EAA who are interested in going up north.
What was more sickening was that the grapevine later revealed the SSA negotiators sided with Oldmeadow at the time to criticise the EAA negotiator on a number of matters. Unbelievable from 2 blokes involved in the big one against the same bloke 16 years earlier. Highly regarded AFAP reps as well - no surprises there.

If you're going to debate matters, stick to the facts. I'm pretty sick of hearing the b.s. that gets flung at the EAA/SAA I.A. by people who have NFI.

Y'all come back now y'hear.

[Hugh Jarse]

Welcome back Jethro:E

Don't let uncle Jed know you're here:}

[b55]

Just looking for the facts man. Thanks for that anyway. Didn't ever say I knew them. I thought this was the point of these forums. Calm, rational discussions. Not inflammatory insults. Again good luck to the EAA pilots.

[Pimp Daddy]

Most if not all crew then employed in SAA at the date of Integration attained command status prior to the expiry of the Agreement and the removal of base protection.

They did?

Do you mean all the 146 crew who came back with Dash 8 commands retained them after the expiry date?

There has only been 1 MEL F/O get a command over the life of the agreement. Everyone else who was a MEL F/O at the merger is still a F/O.

[Jethro]

G'Day HJ,
Yeah..bin a while-finally found the password. Took your advice about quotes..

b55,
Are we reading the same topic?..

On 4/11 22:58 you wrote..
Also, says that the pilot intergration talks between EAA and SSA pilots a few years ago, seemed to be "mostly" driven by the EAA pilots desire to get as many positions in Bris. for themselves, thus those talks did't get very far.
and this on 8/11 05:59 ..
If the proposed QF regional pilot integration was fair and equal to all pilot groups, why didn't it get ratified? I would certainly agree that if you guys were all one group then your strength in greater numbers would have helped you out this EBA.
The I.A was ratified, it just didn't include SSA for reasons only known to them. So by contrast, I think my general rebuke of the misleading personal interpretations made by you were very politely handled. Your last comment regarding strength in numbers is not disputed. Can we please now drop the personal stuff - I felt the need to strongly state the facts the other night - that's all..

Pimp Daddy,

You are right in saying that the most junior SAA F/O in April '02 pre-integration hadn't achieved command status by April this year and my statement misled. The reality however was caused by surplus aircrew and not the integration or the I.A. The die was cast by the Impulse purchase, making the 3x146 aircraft redundant in the turboprop group. As we'd agree, the correct/fair handling would have been to shift the 146 pilot group to Impulse/QF, instead, the backflowing 146 group into the Dash8 group put F/O promotion on hold.

The situation was/is vastly different in the case of a EAA/SSA integration where there is no need to consider backflowing crew or pilots on LWOP with a ghost seniority no. In other words promotion at SSA would not have stagnated in the same way and conceivably the most junior F/O would have achieved the command prior to the I.A. expiry date, supposing 5 year base protection - the IA would have worked very nicely.

This was plainly the case in April '02 and the SSA blokes just let it slip because they were either misinformed (very likely by their reps) or their own ignorance. It couldn't have been self-interest because self-interest was well taken care of by significant base protection.

My long-winded point on this topic is because the whole notion of flight crew unity has been spruiked by high-calibre individuals in this industry for years. The message is clearly out there and is not new. When the opportunity presented itself back in '02, the unified outcome most would agree was in our collective best interests, couldn't be achieved. This wasn't the fault of the I.A. however and the SSA pilot group would have known this had they taken the interest to read the fine print, understood the implications and genuinely wanted the same thing we all want.

Please stop the parochial rubbish about the hordes from south of the border wanting to take your jobs - dag nabbitt, even the Clampett family's over that one.... now where's me wittellin' stick.

[Pimp Daddy]

You are right in saying that the most junior SAA F/O in April '02 pre-integration hadn't achieved command status by April this year and my statement misled.

No, not just the most junior SAA F/O, bar one upgrade to MQL, no-one who was a SAA F/O in April '02 has got a command.

Meanwhile 8-10 EAA SYD F/O's have swanned thru MEL for a couple of months, grabbed a commmand and swanned off back to Sydney - yes thats per the integration agreement, but it still sucks.

This is an agreement that was going to have whatever EAA wanted in it anyway.

Just like any other vote, Sydney way or the highway.

[bonez]

this is not a good time to be planning any sort of fight with qf management – stand out on the plank and it will be cut from under you !

the really sad part of all this is that some of the factions within eaa have very short memories and continue to believe in their own self importance - have a look around and see how many new divisions qf have started in syd of late - yes they have a plan to move much of their operation right out of syd as it has long been known that it is their very worst enemy right back from the days when the show was owned by the government – some seniors have now even admitted that closing ssa was a poor call and one of those responsible is no longer on the payroll – it was at the time a geographical decision and not one based on efficiency and work culture

for those of you that were about some 15 years ago ask some questions as to why the regional pilots (eaa/ssa/saa) did not get career progression into qf – and the f/a's did – wonder why that is so ? sadly not many seem to accept the truth about this including the oldies in the afap who I believe helped screw it for good

think about it guys – the inbred culture in eaa and other sectors of qf that are in syd are slowly being pulled apart bit by bit – it is the only way to progress the group as a whole – eg - why don’t you compare the sick leave in all the ql bases and then ask why is it so high at one port – this costs heaps and if you don’t think something needs to be done then you are living in never never land

the 400 is a great machine and those that get to fly it will no doubt enjoy the experience – but you can bet that trying to screw qf for more $ is not going to be a winner and will only lead to more (all) of the a/c being crewed by ssa as now seems to be the case – after that you can bet that more and more will be crewed out of bne and mel and maybe even cbr

embrace the change chaps it is almost upon you


:cool:

[Jethro]

Pimp Daddy,

Many options were examined for this integration. Some suggested datal seniority pure and simple with no protection, but this would have disadvantaged SAA. The basic idea behind the I.A. was to temporarily preserve the original expectations of each pilot group. At the date of integration there were 3 Dash 8's in MEL. Immediately after integration, 1 Dash 8 was removed from SYD and based in MEL. This aircraft wasn't an additional unit but a transfer and the command upgrade expectations it created went to MEL with it. That's why SYD pilots filtered through MEL during the I.A period.. This clause protected SAA pilots in the same way. Had an original MEL aircraft been permanently moved to SYD - the flying entitlement for SAA pilots would have moved to SYD with it, etc. If this clause didn't exist, it would have meant one pilot group would have unreasonably profitted by the other group's loss.

Eventhough EAA pilots moved through MEL, the combined seniority list showed that for the most part, the datal seniority of the EAA pilots gaining initial commands in MEL was about the same as existing SAA command pilots and the basic principles of seniority were being respected.

To repeat, the reason promotions stagnated at SAA wasn't due to the conditions of the IA, but because the total fleet units were reduced from six aircraft to three when the 3x146's went and many crew became excess. While VR, LWOP and resignations took care of a lot of these excess crew, 75 original SAA crew dropped to approx 45 and that's about 10 more than required for 3 aircraft. The positive side to this is that forced redundancy was avoided and the 10 or so excess crew numbers were absorbed by assigning leave to the remainder.

Integrations rarely proceed without their problems but this one went fairly smoothly and without legal challenge or unfair advantage to any one of the groups involved. As predicted at the time though, it would still be a topic of discussion years later.

Bonez,

The people that you mention from 15 years ago have long gone and are not indicative of the pilot group that now exists.
If you think the only reason the regional group didn't achieve promotional opportunities into mainline was because of their representations, you are grossly mistaken. Training/transfer cost was/still is a major deterrent to this ever happening. Don't oversimplify the CC case with FC. You'd find it very difficult to keep anyone as CC for any length of time if mainline transfer wasn't a part of their agreement. Of course, the training costs of such a move bear no comparison to the transfer of FC. The answer to the excess sick leave, if in fact your statement was true, may be for any number of reasons. Comparative rostering practices with min rest periods; relative ages of the pilot groups concerned, etc.

The fact of the matter is that EAA pilots cop heaps probably because we just happen to be the larger group and some people find this unsettling. The current pilot group has no less an interest in seeing the company prosper as anyone else in the Qlink group. We try just as hard to make our operation run profitably and on time against the backdrop of a more difficult operating environment at SYD airport, greater competition on our routes than our northern cousins, fewer large population centres to service, etc.

It's about time the EAA bad boy image was put to rest by those outside of the Qlink organisation who really don't know the truth of the matter and those in some parts of the organisation who have something to gain by deceitfully prolonging it.