Linton Re-Stream wider effects

[Sumo Boy]

Firstly, let me say I feel bad for all you guys who have been affected. I was however wondering if anyone knew the wider effects of the decisions. In particular, I was meant to be starting 45 Sqn late next year. I was wondering if anybody had heard anything about courses being delayed. Any info/rumors would be most appreciated.
Cheers
Sumo Boy

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Why no just enjoy the haunts of Tokyo and wait til you get some official news?

Sionara.

Duncan.

[Spacer]

Hey, Sumo... Don't I know you??!!

[flash13]

One idea put forward was chopping people at the end of EFT, even with a pass. Not an unreasonable idea by any stretch. (although now mentioned on pprune will have to be delayed by at least 7 or 8 years).

A story from a friend about the standard of pilots out of EFT with him: one of the guys who scraped through made the following comment at the end of the course. "Have you noticed that the numbers on a runway threshold always seem to match your heading? What an amazing conincidence that the air force's numbered runways match up like that!" (Gen) Why not chop people who just scrape through EFT when you've got guys who breeze it but don't make the fast jet cut in the end?

The idea to send everyone through linton and stream at BHT was suggested and recieved a non commital answer ('good idea but more expensive' type arguement).

I'm sure we're all full of good ideas about how the show should be run but i guess it just ain't that easy in the end. But is it more expensive/wasteful to have 100 pilots to many or 100 too few? Which problem can be sorted out faster?

[VigilantPilot]

I'm not going to go into specifics, but there were only a few restreamed multi's. Since they all completed the Linton course, they are going to be undertaking the short course. Not in a position to give you a definitive answer, but I wouldn't have thought it would delay your course.

As for the other points, many people would favour all eft students going to linton and completing at least up to bht before being streamed. At least it would sort out the wheat form the chaff a bit more - and give all studes a fairer chance. Unlikely to take effect in the near future - I guess we will wait for MFTS for any significant changes.

[Uncle Ginsters]

I would suggest that the greatest factor in the timing of 45 Sqn Cses will be the serviceability state of the King Air - currently very poor (although for contractual reasons - when you have the spares, it's a top aircraft)

Any delays in METS cses will have a long knock-on effect - no change from the Jetstream, really.;)

Uncle G

[VigilantPilot]

Not sure your gen is fully up to date uncle g. Last I heard, most problems were sorted.

[Roguedent]

...bring back the WETDREAM!!!!... much better than this King Air thing...:ok:

[16 blades]

Here's an idea - we could send EVERYBODY through both EFT AND Linton, giving them a fair chance to develop their skills and come away with a much greater level of experience that will serve them well in the highly operational environments that everybody (except the FJ fleet) finds themselves in right from the off nowadays. It would also give the Air Force the chance to have a longer look at these youngsters and better assess their future employment potential, not just as pilots but also as Officers. Who knows, it might even alleviate the problem of more and more D-cat co-pilots failing their first upgrade due to woeful lack of flying experience.

We'd need a name for this new course, though - maybe even 'Basic Flying Training'........

16B

[Neeps]

Here's an idea - we could send EVERYBODY through both EFT AND Linton, giving them a fair chance to develop their skills and come away with a much greater level of experience

Totally agree with you there. Not like we have a shortage of Tucanos....

[highandmighty]

Speaking from the rotary world I know some of our courses have been pushed back up to three months. Other than that I havent heard anything from any other stream.

[LFFC]

Who knows, it might even alleviate the problem of more and more D-cat co-pilots failing their first upgrade due to woeful lack of flying experience. Since the King Air has a glass cockpit (which is designed to be easier and more pilot friendly) and ME students aren't getting much experence on steam-driven instruments, is it possible that they struggle when they start flying some of our older aircraft? Or are there other reasons, like a lack of diversity in the routes they experience as new co-pilots?

[16 blades]

diversity in the routes they experience as new co-pilots?

er....what routes, exactly? The K fleet no longer has any scheduled routes, and there aren't many non-scheds around because our aircraft offer is so low.

is it possible that they struggle when they start flying some of our older aircraft?
No, it is because they are getting f**k-all flying because the aircraft are constantly u/s. They arrive with cock-all experience, spend 6 months getting even more cock-all experience (except in running the desk, since those qualified are required for all the dets / ops / specs / exs) and are then expected to pass a CR upgrade.

16B

[Von_Strohm]

flash13 -

I loved the reaction to the idea we should send the excess pilots to instruct on the Tutor!

"What exactly was the question? What? Err... NO" :p



Although putting everone though at least half the Tucano cse seems like a capital idea, I can see the chaps at the top thinking: Too expensive, and MFTS will put the whole thing on it's head soon, so why bother?

[highandmighty]

I´d be interested to hear their opinion on going to instruct on tutor! A good idea yes but I think there would be widespread PVR´ing in favour of flying BA.

[16 blades]

There already is!

16B

[Quazzi]

Things are'nt that bad - some of the co's have nearly a hundred K hours under their belt, still they have been at lyneham a year, and 40 of those hours were on the ocu!

Somethings gotta give.

[ukflyboy]

I feel sorry for the guys that desperately didn't want rotary but got it anyway... so much for the preference sheets!!!
Back to day one of a 12+ month wings course - ouch! Now how is that a sensible use of manpower:confused:
Chin up lads, and all the best.

[teeteringhead]

I feel sorry for the guys that desperately didn't want rotary but got it anyway... so much for the preference sheets!!! ...interesting way of manning the front line that ... using preference sheets.....:rolleyes:

[LuckyBreak]

Quote:

Why were they desperate not to go rotary? - Scared of doing a bit of hard work?


I assume that they were not too impressed with having to go back to day one, compared to their (not so good at EFT) collegues who didn't get Linton, and who are now on the front line. By the time the re-streamers get to the front line, they'll be 2 years behind in terms of helicopter experience and promotion just becuase they were slightly better on the Tutor.

At least they still have seats though!

[Rahboy]

...interesting way of manning the front line that ... using preference sheets.....

Indeed, there is clearly a much more accurate method of judging the required front line numbers, factoring in manning reductions and the like. That's why the training pipeline works so well. Wait a minute........

[ukflyboy]

That is indeed my point Lucky,
What would you rather do...
a) start a 12-14 month wings course from scratch along with the associated 'straight out of IOT' officer training guff, or
b) do a 3 monthish METs short course and get out of the training system and off to do the job?
I know which one I would have chosen!

[SARREMF]

This thread is very sad. The training machine geared up to produce pilots only to find that the RAF was going to shrink and we now had too many. If this had been BA none of these students would have been retained but would now be on the dole. Did they [the RAF] do that to them - no, they delay their training but still give them a cockpit. OK might not be their first CHOICE but I don't remember anywhere at IOT or in the CIO's saying I had a choice where I ended up and what platform I ended up flying. Quit moaning, you have a job and OK a year later you will be on a Sqn .... but you are still on the inside looking out and not vice versa.

[ProfessionalStudent]

SARREMF

Harsh, perhaps, but fair.

Rotary or dole, rotary or dole... Mmmmm

Yes, there is a more efficient way to do it (probably), but the Bottom Neddies at OASC didn't know that the Top Neddies at TGDA were going to pull the plug on the FJFT system.

I just hope the re-streamees don't come across with a "I'm better than you because I got streamed to Linton" attitude. Few do BTW, but there must be some bitter, chip-ridden guys out there...

If you can't take a joke etc...

[BEagle]

I can understand someone who has completed FW BFT not wishing to go rotary if there are no FJ slots available. Because if you're to be a trash hauler, you may as well be a comfortable one in a nice big ME aeroplane. After all, the ancient relics now in service will have to go soon (I mean the aircraft, not the crews!) - and there'll be A400M, A330K and MRA4 to look forward to in addition to C-17 and C130J.

Besides, ME experience will be much more marketable in later life if you choose a career change.

Rotary or redundancy-payment-and-CPL/IR might perhaps be a better question, rather than rotary or dole.

[VigilantPilot]

SARREMF - I think thats a reasonably fair statement - some people forget how lucky they are, although I dont think its entirely a fair to compare military and civillian roles like that. Only when it becomes RAF PLC and people get the choice of "where they go/what they do" can you compare like that. Its interesting to see how the thread started with a legitimate "are there any rumours as to if my course will be delayed" into a thread about the restreamees.

ProfessionalStudent - I dont think there are many with that kind of attitude. If I were in their shoes, although disappointing not to have a crack at the hawk, I'd be thinking it was a bonus to go to Linton for a year to develop first class airmanship that will stand them in excellent stead for rotary/multi.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Vigipilot

Didn't mean to tar them all with the same brush, merely wished that we don't get a load of young, bitter and twisted blokes to join the old, bitter and twisted blokes like me!!

As far as the original post is concerned, it looks like about 8 months for rotary at the moment, but watch that space. Shawbury is balls to the wall at the moment with about 50 pilots at any one time being trained (to clarify, that's on Sixty Sqn only) and has no spare capacity, so the wait can only get longer.

Still, I'm sure there are lots and lots of SO1s and SO2s with no-one to make their coffee...

In case of ill feeling by the way, I feel genuine sympathy for the way the guys have been treated by the system...:sad:

[VigilantPilot]

I too hope there aren't many bitter people. I suppose everyone has got to put things in proportion and realise that the flying is going to be exciting wherever you end up - for every guy restreamed, there must be 1000s of guys who never made it but would dearly love to be in their shoes.

Anyway, usually its only the thought of rotary that puts people off. Once they are there, they love it.

[ProfessionalStudent]

It's not trying it they're scared of, it's LIKING it...;)

[FrogPrince]

I understand this thread to mean that the RAF has a group of young, fit, air-minded chaps and chapesses who need to be gainfully employed until someone decides what to do with them next.

We also have a scheduled UK military deployment to Afghanistan next Spring, where the PBI will have to engage and defeat the men with Black Turbans on their home turf in a challenging environment.

Solution: get these young fellows issued with CS 95, squeezed through an FAC course at JFACTSU and off to 16 AA Bde. Pilots learn how the 'other half' lives, paras get extra resources to deliver terminal controls. RAF keeps the young thrusters busy.

Sorted.

[betty swallox]

BEagle, as an informed chap, how can you rationalise the sentiment that flying an MRA4 is trash hauling? There's a wee bit more to maritime flying than that. I am not saying it is better/harder than flying a C-17, but very different. This ar$e that kipper fleet flying is akin to transport aircraft ops is only strengthened by this narrow viewpoint. I thought you knew better than that...guess not:\

[BEagle]

Err, yes, sorry - open to misinterpretation I concede.

What I meant by that list of a/c is that they are all NEW (or digitally remastered) types for the young chaps to look forward to.

Whereas, Merlin excepted, the trash-hauling helos are somewhat long in the teeth.

I'm quite aware that counting submarines and doing the less well publicised stuff in the Comet GT isn't the same as trucking - or even tanking.

Sorry for the ambiguous post.

[JTIDS]

SAR in the RAF....


now does that count as trash hauling... guess it depends on who your picking up at the time...

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes:

[highandmighty]

On the bitter and twisted front I know a few people feeling just that as one of the wider effects of the restreaming is that people who had recieved dates for Shawbury, following a 6 month hold, are now being bumped back further to make room for the re steamed guys and gals.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

could be worse, could be holding for multis! had the pleasure of meeting a chap who held for a year, turned up, did ground school then got told to go away for 8 weeks as there wasn't room!

As an aside, AFAIUI the holds have been fettled to make sure that the order on cses is in "length of hold" order, i.e. if a wokka chappy has been holding for 8 months and a FJ retread for 9 the ex-FJ starts in front, but in the reverse the reverse happens....

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

As one of the 'restreamees' I can confirm that you are correct PBA. None of us will be unduly pushing in on any courses... remember Highandmighty, we have already held for over 6 months (some well over 6 months) prior to starting Linton let alone the 9 or 10 months since we finished Linton. Myself and the guys will only be filtering in 1 or 2 per course so shouldn't drastically effect their holds.
And no, rotary wasn't my first or second preference but I haven't VW'ed yet so I guess that answers the question
Rotary or dole, rotary or dole... Rotary it is!:{

[Von_Strohm]

Ah! I knew you'd come round! ;)

Looking at this thread, the most "bitter and twisted" attitudes seem to come from one or two people who this doesn't directly affect. I'm sure you mean well and are only trying to offer advice - but don't be so quick to doubt the integrity and professionalism of the young people involved.

[DECU CHECK]

Sorry folks am away on ops at the mo and don't know what has happened with FJ trg; can someone fill me in please?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Decu,

same as a year or two ago.... i.e. chop a third of the holdees in order to resolve the pipeline!

[Brain Potter]

It's a shame that folks who have been streamed in a particular direction are sent somewhere else because of manning requirements but I'm afraid it's just a fact of life and is certainly not a new policy. I often fly with a navigator who has had a long career in FJ and ME after being chopped from pilot trg at TWU in the 1970s - there were no RW or ME slots then either.

What is a real shame today is those cases where folks suspended at FJ or RW BFT, AFT and beyond are not found ME slots because the pipeline is clogged with students who have been "streamed" at EFT. It seems as though those who went further have been given more rope with which to hang themselves and so find it difficult to overcome the watertight case that has to be written these days to justify a suspension. They are almost certainly a better prospect for ME than those "streamed" at EFT but the latter candidates have much less stinging "streaming" paperwork on their records.

Lets face it "streaming" at EFT is actually the first round of choppings from the FJ system. I can vouch for the fact that students who have at least had some time at Linton are much less likely to have problems at a ME OCU and rarely have to be re-taught basic pilot skills on what should be a conversion course. Bring back proper BFT for all !

[ukflyboy]

Couldn't agree with you more Brian,
As unfortunate as it is, the restreaming was necessary, but I do think that SARREMF is talking ****e. BA or any sensible civvy company would get rid of the lowest common denominator - ie some of the large group of holding officers that struggled into a multis slot straight from EFT, not the guys that had already proved themselves. Sending the restreamed guys to multis (or those that want to go that way at least!) wouldn't do the fleet any harm at all and would get the guys (who have already had a fair amount spent on them) into product service quickly.
I just can't see the sense in starting these guys from square one on a rotary course, unless they really want to be there!
Some of the guys from my UAS who have been caught up in this latest lot of restreaming are going to be some 2 years behind the guys who got sent rotary off their EFT. True, the guys still have a window seat (and wings, the sods!) but it has set their careers back more than little!

[UberPilot]

If you're restreamed after completing Linton, do you 'keep' your wings and do Shawbury with wings or lose them and get re-awarded them?

[young_lad]

I was involved in the first batch of 'super-streaming' and as far as I'm aware, the guys who went to Shawbs and Cranditz all kept their wings. Wear them with pride fellas!!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

It is indeed true, wings are kept ...

Think the biggest bummer is moortrek!

AFAIK the reason that more guys went to shawbs this time was because 45 is still chokka with guys from the last rounds of re-streaming, so they're looking to even out the manning levels a bit more (i.e. make all the holds equally long!) And apparently CAS has decreed there is to be no more holding after 2007... presumably for MFTS....

[16 blades]

the guys that had already proved themselves
So you think that passing the Linton course means you have 'proved' yourself? Boy, are YOU in for a shock! You haven't "proved yourself" until you get CR on the frontline, my boy. And it wasn't all that long ago that EVERYBODY had to pass the Linton course with a FJ recommend to get ANYWHERE.

So, what's this MFTS thing all about then?

16B

[AllTrimDoubt]

As far as I'm concerned the guys who have passed Linton to Wings standard have proven themselves - I taught on that course and those who have passed can be proud of their achievement.

Agreed, they will now have to learn and do so again in the rotary environment and frontline CR is the ultimate end goal - but don't knock them...this isn't their fault and there are some good guys in the pipeline.

[6Z3]

16B

"So, what's this MFTS thing all about then? "

Oh , it's just some minor project that is planned to happen just beyond the end of your nose. This link might give you some background, my boy. http://www.ukmfts.mod.uk/]

[16 blades]

Our Mission:

To deliver the world's best military flying training system.

Er...we already had that...until they started cutting costs and streaming people way too early.

So, working through the bullsh1t and w@nk-word-fest that resides on the other side of that link, the bottom line is that Flying Training is being civilianised.

Top idea, MoD. Well done. Again.

As far as I'm concerned the guys who have passed Linton to Wings standard have proven themselves
They've proven that they can fly the Tucano. We ALL used to have to do that, 'back in the day' (yoof-speak for the youngsters here) when we actually had a Flying Training System, not a money saving system. 'Wings Standard' used to be the end of AFT as well - frankly the idea that BFT graduates qualify for wings appalls me.

16B

[6Z3]

16B,

Are you saying that the RAF FT system used to be healthy? The RAF's ability to muck people around and keep pipeliners on hold is legendary and historical. I recall in the mid 70's it was common/ normal for pipeliners to take in excess of 7 years to reach the FL.

Absolutely nothing has changed, except that the RAF now insists on imposing this ridiculous holding regime on the pipeliners of other Services, with the added insult of having to compete for prime slots, with the arbiters coming predominantly from RAF PTC.

Were you aware that the average age of RAF pilots arriving on the FL over the 5 years to 2004 was 28.5? With this sort of pipeline it's hardly surprising that the FTS required 60 IPS to feed the FL. Under UKMFTS, I would expect aircrew to have at least two FL tours under their belt by this age, and the high fliers should be well on their way to command/staff/exec appointments by then.

No, nothing has changed. The RAF system is (and always has been) bent, with the focus only on the FJP, whilst all other streams are treated as second class citizens.

The solution is not in streaming later but in targetting the selection procedure, which must be much more sophisticated and better at recognising the differing qualities required for each aircrew category.

By the way, back in those 'good old days' young man, you got your wings after BFT at Cranwell.

[BEagle]

We certainly did, old chum!

And you assertion that the RAF system is fast jet-centric is absolutely correct.

How it was in our day, 6Z8. I finally arrived on the front line at 26 after waiting 5 months for Valley, then after Valley another 6 months for Brawdy. My original sqn posting was then disbanded, so I had to wait another 5 months before going to Honington where I was chopped in Jan 1977. However, I susbequently joined the V-force in May 1977.

But all those delays and 'holds' included some flying! I had 265 hours total time when awarded my Wings; before I arrived at Valley I had another 46 on the JP (as well as surviving your attempt on the A1 - Gatenby Lane - Leeming main gate record after a trip to the local chippy - you lost it on Cow$hit Corner as I recall; a Cortina estate was hardly a sound choice of vehicle!). Then, between the end of my Gnat course and the start of TWU, a further 41 on Gnat and Hunter. Between finishing Brawdy and starting Honington, a further 35 on the Hunter. After being chopped and restreamed in early 1977, I had yet a further 27 on the JP....

Are people being held up in the pipeline these days still getting such refresher flying?

[Elmlea]

Most post-Linton guys who are holding; regardless of their next destination; seem to have fallen into AEF posts, so they're getting a good amount of Tutor flying while sitting on their hands. There are still those who have chosen a holding post in the part of the country they'd like to be in, but most seem to be flying. There're also a lot of guys waiting pre-OCU or pre-TWU doing the same; although some of them are sitting on 100 Sqn flying Hawks around.

For the guys in the FJ pipeline, there's also set refresher flying for them before the next stage. They get 20 hours in the Tucano before starting Valley, and something like 10-15 more Hawk hours before starting TWU. The pre-OCU refreshers are something like 10 hours Hawk on 208 before moving to 19 for around 20.

[Von_Strohm]

So you think that passing the Linton course means you have 'proved' yourself? Boy, are YOU in for a shock! You haven't "proved yourself" until you get CR on the frontline, my boy. And it wasn't all that long ago that EVERYBODY had to pass the Linton course with a FJ recommend to get ANYWHERE.

They've proven that they can fly the Tucano. We ALL used to have to do that, 'back in the day' (yoof-speak for the youngsters here) when we actually had a Flying Training System, not a money saving system. 'Wings Standard' used to be the end of AFT as well - frankly the idea that BFT graduates qualify for wings appalls me.

:zzz:

You seem a little touchy about this 16B. Want to share?

[16 blades]

Not personally touchy, just fed up of seeing us being cut to the bone in all departments, and seeing youngsters turning up on front line squadrons who have a difficult time hacking it - not because of any personal failings on their part, but because of a training system that does not sufficiently equip them for the task.

In the days when we had plenty of serviceable aircraft and trg hours, much of this could be addressed by line trg, on-the-job style. Sadly those days are now very much behind us, and the nature of the job itself has changed considerably, presenting much less opportunity for abbos to recieve relevant training until much further on in their tours.

A system which allows somebody to finish BFT thinking they have 'made it' has serious flaws - those who do think this way are in for a shock.

16B

[PPRuNeUser0211]

"BA or any sensible civvy company would get rid of the lowest common denominator - ie some of the large group of holding officers that struggled into a multis slot straight from EFT, not the guys that had already proved themselves. "


>Rant/pedantic mode on<

16B, in fairness I think you need to read the original post! The quote is more a reference to the ongoing conversation that "you're lucky to have a cockpit anyhow", i.e. a civvy company would just make you redundant, and pointing out that it would be the poor chaps from EFT who got streamed direct multis, as opposed to the chaps who got streamed FJ and, in fact, made course standard at BFJT. This is not a reference to thinking that perhaps they are CR, or even LCR, or in any way ready for the front line, and I don't believe that anyone in that situation thinks that at all, but rather they have passed the cse which has the highest chop rate in the FT system (yes chaps, historically even higher than the Fear!)

>Rant off<

As for the rest 16B, fully agree that the trg system needs to be producing more capable pilots now than in the past, due to "Lean" or whatever PC term we're using these days to say we don't have enough jets or crews to fly them....

Apologies for the abuse, but am angry! I blame my sister... (long story!)

[Supply and Demand]

Quote from 16 Blades on thread "Left seat only for ME Captains?":

"Copilots are qualified military pilots - they have completed RAF Pilot training to the required high standard for the award of their wings. They did not get this far without being able to taxy an aircraft or use nosewheel steering to maintain directional control in an abort situation (albeit in a Jetstream / King Air)."

So, 16B, can you enlighten us on what the difference between someone who has been awarded their wings at the end of BFJT and those that achieve the "high standard" at the end of a King Air course? Seem to have slightly double standards here? Maybe those concerned have not yet made it to combat ready but if your argument is correct then they are qualified military pilots and should not be patronised.

As for your argument about everyone having to do BFT in your day - correct me if I'm wrong - but I understood that was only to the current BHT standard halfway through the course (the majority of those that get chopped nowadays do so on the advanced phase of the course).

A little bitter about an experience in the past perhaps?

...Anyone seen a decent foxhole around here to hide in?

[PC7anyone?]

Don't get bogged down in the detail. Although each and every decision affects you in the end it is just a manning issue. I was chopped fast jet in the early 90's. Had a 14 month hold to get to Shawbs (admitedley my choice), but that was nothing to the ME guys waiting 2-3 yrs for a slot. Afew even did a degree cse for a hold! Even had a good mate who held for ME, did the refresher, got restreamed, went FJ didn't quite make it and then held AGAIN for ME. Top bloke, didn't hold him back he just got on with it. These thihgs go in the usual cycle. At least now the Linton guys have a set of wings so they can fly for an AEF. I have mates chopped at FHT at Valley who spent a very boring hold on the ground (just like me) waiting for a slot. And yes the Linton guys and Gals deserve it. I am ex Linton QFI and the wings ruling came in whilst I was there. Admittedly they don't go straight to an OCU post wings but having been through both sysytems they definatley deserve them after the Linton cse. You can't change it so although it may not be right embrace the oportunity you have and get on with it. Nearly 20 years on I don't regret a minute ( except a small hotel fire in Norway !!)

[seven4mankind]

16B,

Jesus Christ. Go and have a lie down

[16 blades]

Jesus Christ
No, just me!

So, 16B, can you enlighten us on what the difference between someone who has been awarded their wings at the end of BFJT and those that achieve the "high standard" at the end of a King Air course?
Er....yes, the difference is that they've done an extra course (or at least would have were the system still as it was 15 years ago). The comment on the other thread addressed a specific issue with which seat a copilot could sit in (either in my view).

As for your argument about everyone having to do BFT in your day - correct me if I'm wrong - but I understood that was only to the current BHT standard halfway through the course.
Corrected - you had to complete the FULL course (to Valley entry standard) or be chopped - and chopped meant CHOPPED, NOT re-streamed. The course I completed is the same length and virtually identical in content to that running currently.

As an aside, if I have come across as patronising to these young lads who have achieved something and are getting royally boned, then I apologise - my intention was to rant against the system!

A little bitter about an experience in the past perhaps?
No particular experience that I'm aware of! I'm just generally embittered in my advancing years!

16B

[bpster]

Corrected - you had to complete the FULL course (to Valley entry standard) or be chopped - and chopped meant CHOPPED, NOT re-streamed. The course I completed is the same length and virtually identical in content to that running currently.

16B, Wow, I wish I could be like you, be so hard done by and still be cheerfull. Back in your day of course you all worked so much harder.

Do you perhaps have something to prove? My heart bleeds for you. You do seem to like dampening the spirits of the young lads who dared to join your Air Force.

Guys got mucked around in your day and they are getting mucked around now, dont try to make out that you had it harder than everyone else and your so awesome you can pi$$ on everyones fire now.

Sorry but I simply had to reply, you got away with too many posts there. Winge over if you just chill out man! The discussion is on the current problem!

Back into Hiding :(

[16 blades]

Like i said, my whinge was at the system (including the present problem), not at the individuals it is consistently letting down. Guys are being sent to the front line with less and less under their belt - the job certainly hasn't got any easier; much harder in fact. This is ultimately doing the boys a disservice, wouldn't you agree?

Do you perhaps have something to prove?
Not at all - not that I'm aware of anyway.

dont try to make out that you had it harder than everyone else
Merely pointing out how it was not all that long ago compared to how it is now, to offer some perspective. These guys have been shafted, but at least, as others have pointed out here, they still have a seat - and ME is certainly not a 'soft option' (not my fleet, at least - can't really speak for the shineys, but they do tend to work their knackers off as well).

Didn't mean to get any backs up, old chap, just to offer some perspective to these unfortunate individuals, and to point out that you will STILL work 'kin hard on ME - and get a largely enjoyable, challenging and rewarding job to boot.

your so awesome you can pi$$ on everyones fire now
If I was that good, I wouldn't be flying Albert, I'm sure!

16B

[orca]

Could somebody explain, in layman's terms where the problem lies? It would appear that the RAF are getting the requisite amount of people through the door, but they're ending up 'holding' for courses for an inordinate period of time. This in turn causes 're-streaming' when one FTS has places available and can therefore utilise the man power pool 'holding' for another FTS. This is strange given the fact that, if the rumour mill is to be believed, most frontlines are short of people.

Can one draw the conclusion that our training establishments can cope with neither the demands of the OCUs or the output of the IOT system? Could one also surmise that we have such a small frontline these days that to withdraw strength to the second line, in order that we bolster the training establishments, would implode our fighting strength?

Could an unsavoury solution to this all be to introduce redundancy to the flying training world in times of long holds? Perhaps people could even go to be a civilian on a retainer - just in case things perk up again? Obviously a horrendous thought for those desperate to realise their dreams - but all this boils down to 'needs of the service' does it not?

[bpster]

On reflection I didnt mean to slate you that much 16b. But We are working mighty hard at the moment not to get chopped as I am sure you did. It just grinds our gears to hear all the old timers stories about how it was in their day or "back in the day" as if its not propper training now.

Although I have yet to get to the front line, I do agree with you about the inadequate training for the front line. I just feel for the guys that will go to Typhoon from the Hawk, before the 128. I cant but imagine that would be like learning to fly again! Might be a bit late for us, hopefully out of TWU by then if the holds dont get longer.

[serf]

if you are not yet on the front line, how do you know if the training was adequate or not?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Serf: I've got a good powerpoint somewhere showing the difference between a typhoon and a Hawk T1a......whole different century there!

Orca: The problem, AFAIK, lies in the fact that they don't want to over-burden the front line with first tourists, "dilution rate" is the blunty speak for it.... So in theory you could probably ramp up the OCUs a little (except perhaps the viffy nozzley one, full of the dark blue at the mo, I believe) but then there would be a front line full of first tourists, which is "undesireable". So the big trick is to reduce the turnover, but then you have to reduce the input at IOT etc etc etc, so what we are seeing is backlash still from the turmoil post 9/11 recruitment drop and subsequent rise etc.... Its like being the water skier behind a boat, the boat moves a little, and the poor little dude behind is swinging from side to side, unless he does something about it.... (our "doing something about it" is to chop guys, instead of gripping it and dropping recruitment early enough!)

Clear as mud now I suspect!

[serf]

so can i assume then, that the hawk pilot goes straight onto front line typhoon with no further training!!.............................

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Lol no, but the point is that training a guy on typhoon to use all the shiny toys costs more than training him to use aforementioned shiny toys in a grob from day 1..... even if you're using sims and ground based trg....

[airborne cat]

I thought the Typhoon was supposed to be a piece of old pi$$ to fly!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

lol indeed.... but I suspect it's doing the rest that'll be hard... especially when all your mfd's blue screen!

[FrogPrince]

Monsieur,

Thanks for the brief on Wednesday evening. You were very well received by your audience. Pitched at exactly the right level.

I appreciated the 'insider' update on the resteam. Glad to hear you are being gainfully employed, even as a supernumary. Good luck in May !

FP

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Sumo,

Do you see what youv'e started! I hope your proud of yourself!

:confused:

Duncan

[Sumo Boy]

Haha
I know, I’ve been a way for a while, come back and see it’s become a 4 page epic! Although it has gone off track slightly, thanks for the replies early on. I have to say though, after some of the replies about life at lyneham, my previous eagerness to go that route has paled slightly. So, not to change tracks again, but what is the best route?
Cheers
SB

[Spacer]

Hey Sumo: Rotary must be the way!