View Full Version : Qantas says new pay claim won't fly
sling load
25th Oct 2005, 23:47
Qantas says new pay claim won't fly
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
October 26, 2005
QANTAS chief executive Geoff Dixon has drawn another of his famous lines in the sand with a sharp warning to his pilots that the carrier will not increase its pay offer or resile from its decision to start a new international carrier.
In a blunt letter to the airline's long-haul pilots, Mr Dixon warned that an active campaign for a "no" vote on a new enterprise bargaining agreement would not influence the group's strategy to take low-cost offshoot Jetstar international.
His comments come as a reform group expected to take control of the Australian and International Pilots Association has warned the airline is in for some hard bargaining if the enterprise agreement is rejected.
Pilots are worried about the establishment of a new international arm of Jetstar and plans to start a second-officers' base in Singapore.
But Mr Dixon said the agreement provided for back pay, a 3per cent annual pay rise and "some sensible efficiencies".
"If the proposed agreement is voted down, the current enterprise agreement, and the current pay rates continue until a new agreement is accepted," he said.
'AIPA may approach Qantas with new claims, but I can assure you that the 3 per cent wages offer will not be increased.
"Nor will the offer for back pay be repeated.
"Anyone suggesting otherwise is misleading you."
Mr Dixon said decisions on establishing new businesses would be made solely on the basis of what was best for the profitability and market share for the whole group.
He said this was how the airline would best secure the future of all employees, including pilots.
"Our international operation is certainly in no position to be isolated from the changes sweeping the entire industry," he said.
"On the contrary, this is where the pressure and need for change is most acute, with returns from the international operation falling well short of its share of our asset base."
The Qantas boss said Jetstar had grown new routes, protected Qantas market share and strengthened the mainline brand and yield. He said the same rationale would underscore its international operations.
However, his claims did not wash well with pilots.
AIPA reform group spokesman Ian Woods questioned why Mr Dixon was so determined to get involved in the pilots' proper democratic process.
Captain Woods said most pilots would interpret Mr Dixon's references to back pay as a threat.
"It's supposed to be a democratic vote, but the pilots probably think it's a plebiscite at gun point," he said.
Source: The Australian Newspaper
Wun Wing Lo
26th Oct 2005, 00:51
sounds like management are going to take it to the media hoping to create another 89 style dispute.....
any one else feeling engaged? its obvious the company is.... with both barrels!!!
king oath
26th Oct 2005, 01:05
Management are obviously worried about the changes that have occured in AIPA.
The pilots have had statements from everyone except the janitor on this subject. Now Dixon is trotted out.
Eyeshades on everyone for the big poker game where bluff wins .
Wun Wing Lo
26th Oct 2005, 01:22
Me tthinks they're contracts are about up and an industrial dispute will cut millions of their next employment prospect.
They've been bullying pilots for a long time and not just on the issue of pay etc.
Like most bullies their worst nightmare is someone standing up to them.
Another 2 year EBA was probably all they need to out manouvre us or for the PM to extend his unfair dismissal laws to all employers.
If there is one thing the public hate more than overpaid glorified bus drivers its overpaid CEO's. In the media over the last couple of weeks there have been bits and pieces on how QF pilots make huge amounts of money over J* and VB. One quoted QF LH guys make 440,000 base salary.
Me thinks the ground work is being layed for a very public dispute.
Be very very careful. And above all don't take the advise of your legal representatives when it comes to the serving of writs. :\
blueloo
26th Oct 2005, 03:56
AIPA doesnt have legal counsel. It has a legal speedhump to progress.
Chimbu chuckles
26th Oct 2005, 04:48
I think you should all do EXACTLY what GD says...right after he hands back 63% of that 66% pay rise he got a while back.
But be aware...if he has already, or does soon, start the media up about 'overpayed pilots'...and let's face it you got a Murdoch on your board...you're going to need your own media to combat it.
Is he dumb enough to back all his pilots into a corner?
Are his pilots angry enough to be all standing in the same corner together?
If ever there was a time to re visit the lessons learned in 89 it would be now...I would bet GD's last payrise he knows them cold.
Nomorecrap
26th Oct 2005, 04:53
Just make sure you time your walkout to NOT coincide with the Air Traffic Controllers! It becomes a little less effective for everybody!
TIMMEEEE
26th Oct 2005, 06:20
Charles,
I believe it is actually a Packer rather than a Murdoch.
And I thought that young Jamie was just there for show.
Ronnie Honker
26th Oct 2005, 07:12
Dixon has been foolish enough to have shown a large part of his hand already.
Jet Star.
The Jet* people need to realise that they are underselling themselves by a long way, and THEY need a similar unity and cohesiveness as AIPA provides for the QF pilots.
It is evident that there is enough one for everyone to have a share without one group taking some away from the other, but by paying a greater price (by settling for less).
The average Australian has had enough of the greedy boss who sits in a mahoganey walled, air-conditioned office, furnished with plush carpet and an antique oak desk retrenching thousands of workers - and squeezing the conditions of those left - while he has his hand outstretched asking for another few MILLION dollars just for him!
Dixon portrays that greedy boss perfectly, and needs to be given some "press" to that effect, as a countermeasure.
At the present time, Dixon feels he is allied with the Jet* pilots, against the QF pilots.
Prove him wrong!
Capt Claret
26th Oct 2005, 07:39
I don't work for QF so have no axe to grind. However, foolish and GD don't seem to go together.
As for advice to the Jet* pilot body (and I don't work for them either), I'd think that an inclusive type statement rather than a lecture on what Jet* pilots should do, would be more likely to achieve a consensus.
I have been on the periphery of some conversations between Jet* pilots and my assessment is that to a certain degree, they're sick of the flack and the one sided advice and are looking forward to sticking it to some of the groups who have stuck it to them.
Doesn't achieve much in the way of positive outcomes for the piloting fraternity perhaps, but it's not too hard to see where the sentiments come from. If you look objectively of course.
Wizofoz
26th Oct 2005, 08:09
and THEY need a similar unity and cohesiveness as AIPA provides for the QF pilots.
Well wouldn't the most effective way to achieve that be to invite them to join the AIPA?
Ronnie Honker
26th Oct 2005, 23:16
Having the J Star pilots join AIPA might prove more divisive than unifying, as it would mean AIPA would be seen to be advocating one set of conditions for QF pilots, and another for J Star pilots.
On the other hand, of course, it could work to the benefit of BOTH groups, as EBA's for each group could be staggered, thereby providing a "leap frog" opportunity at each renewal.
From Dixon's statements, it is now apparent that each group needs the other to prevent a savaging of each others' conditions.
Dixon must beside himself with sadistic pleasure, having two packs of dogs and throwing one bone into the centre, and then watching as the fangs are bared and pieces of fur are ripped off each other as the snarling, yelping and blood flys.
Sight of the reward itself (the bone) is lost by all except a couple of antagonists near to it - but the rest of both packs are now in a frenzied dogfight, unsure why, except that everyone else is doing it.
Capt Claret
26th Oct 2005, 23:31
Ronnie,
When you say, Having the J Star pilots join AIPA might prove more divisive than unifying, as it would mean AIPA would be seen to be advocating one set of conditions for QF pilots, and another for J Star pilots.
why couldn't the integration of JetStar pilots be seen along similar lines that AIPA must agree to separate pay for mainline Capt v F/O v S/O and for the different aircraft types.
Accepting, and welcoming JetStar pilots would allow a united tech crew to work towards improving the lot of the whole. Keeping JetStar pilots out, will in my view, only exacerbate the us and them culture, and mainline have more to loose. JetStar can really only go up in terms of pay and conditions.
Calligula
27th Oct 2005, 00:27
JQ aust pilots have had the capacity to be members of AIPA, at a discount rate, for 18 months now.
The fact that the majority of them chose not to is not the fault of current AIPA members
Wun Wing Lo
27th Oct 2005, 00:47
Caliigula they probably won't join till they need to... ie when their pay and conditions are under fire... i remember people saying QF were one of the lowest paid pilots in the world... and we were safe because of it...
No one is safe... and I wonder how AIPA will react when large chunks of the business go to J*. How can they represent both pilot groups without conflict of interest...
I tell you right now when J* start getting COM positions Im going to be giving myself an instant 0.85 per cent pay rise. Its bad enough at the moment with all the special interest groups.
What J* needs is its own cohesive union which works with AIPA when we have common interests... perhaps with a national union similiar to IFALPA where all unions have reps and co ordinate their activities but still gives each pilot group control over their individual pond. Similiar to ACTU.
Whats been happening over the last few years has been happening in GA since before I was born. Otherwise it can be compared to the oldest profession.
As an aside... keep the blinkers off... Jetstar may be a distraction... we may yet still both get blindsided by something unexpected... eg SQ merger.
Ronnie Honker
27th Oct 2005, 02:08
Jetstar may be a distraction... we may yet still both get blindsided by something unexpected... Agreed WWL, while the 2 main packs are scrapping it out, beware of any curs watching on the sideline.
Australia already has an IFALPA affiliated union, the AFAP - of which AIPA was once a part. In its infinte wisdom, however, AIPA decided at the time that the interests of international pilots were better represented alone, rather than acting in unison with the domestics.
That decision has now turned around and bitten them on their behind big time.
The AFAP apparently already represents a not inconsiderable number of J* pilots, I have been told.
Additionally the S-ALPA (Singapore) pilots' union is also affiliated with IFALPA
The most logical "marriage" would be one of AIPA and the AFAP.
For the future of ALL pilot groups, it's time to put aside the petty, divisive bickering and set ourselves up for a strong, united future that will benefit and protect ALL of us.
Better hurry up with that, ie the next 5 weeks or it will be too late. If it is not already.
JQ aust pilots have had the capacity to be members of AIPA, at a discount rate, for 18 months now.
The fact that the majority of them chose not to is not the fault of current AIPA members
I thought APIA had no legal basis to negotiate on behalf of JQ pilots as a result of an APIA decision years ago, leaving the AFAP the only body that can actually negotiate legally binding EBAs on behalf of JQ pilots.
If thats is the case, what is the benefit of joining APIA ?
Is this what the AFAP and APIA are in court about at the moment ?
virgindriver
27th Oct 2005, 08:43
I would be curious- is it right/ lawful that a boss can make threats to influence an EBA? I am not sure where the law stands on this now. Doesn't seem right though. What has happened to the Bargaining part of EBA (or Agreement)? Anyone know??
Chimbu chuckles
27th Oct 2005, 10:19
EBA= we are the Enterprise, you are the Bargain, Agreed?
Ronnie Honker
27th Oct 2005, 10:49
Here's an idea.
Remove Geoff from QANTAS for a month, and see what effect this has on the Company.
Now remove the same number of employees - say 20 or so Captains - who would draw the equivalent of Goog's (Good Old Geoff's) income, for the same period, and note the effect.
Goog gave a realistic indication of what HE expected QANTAS should be able to afford to pay, when he took his 60+ percent salary increase.
He led by example.
But it would seem that NOW (that he's got what HE wanted) he's saying that QANTAS can afford only THREE PERCENT.
So were you being greedy (again) Googie, when you made your grab - or just deceitful to the shareholders?
Orville
27th Oct 2005, 15:07
And if they join, what happens when they outnumber the mainline, good bye to all your hard faught for conditions.
Bolty McBolt
27th Oct 2005, 23:53
The L/H pilots are about to have their vote..Ratification or many RATs in this process.
From my experience as a LAME if they vote no and arent willing to take action to back it up.(of the industrial kind)
When you come back to the table to negociate and you havent rattled your sabre loud enough, you will be offered less and the pay rises will start at the day of RATIFICATION..ie NO back pay to the end of the last EBA. :ouch:
We are all watching
:}
DutchRoll
28th Oct 2005, 01:05
Agreed Bolty. One of the (several) problems is that our long-haul pilot's sabres are very rusty and have been tucked away for so long that many mainline pilots can't quite remember where they put them. GoD has no such problem, as He keeps His sabre finely honed, being the highly respected leader of men that He is (even more respected now, after his not-so-subtle written threat to mainline pilots recently).:yuk:
Hopefully the new AIPA leadership will be able to find the right balance between having some industrial fortitude, and carefully playing the inevitable PR war (ie, not doing rash & silly industrial things that screw the ordinary punters). If they don't, we're all buggered. In any case, the old leadership were never going to do anything but blithely follow GoDs commandments until mainline conditions as we know them are wiped out.
QFinsider
28th Oct 2005, 03:56
The funny thing is there is no need for sabre rattling. This is an industrial process. A NO vote simply allows the bargaining to continue until, consensus is reached.
GD's threats are tantamount to trying to exert pressure on a democratic process. My sources tell me that the matter is looked at with some interest in legal circles.
None of us there will take silly steps, this is a negotiation. It is about mutual respect, something sadly lacking from the management perspective. We afterall are generally proud to be in company colours.
As to the money, back pay doesn't matter, unfortunatley for poor Geoff he doesn't see anything other than $.
Crewing aircraft, singapore basings and prospects for employment beyond the next year are the issues. It shows how out of touch they are. By the way what happened to the engagement planning teams? And when do we get another go at the survey(it has to be repeated) I hear the cabin crews' was worse:E
Dropt McGutz
28th Oct 2005, 04:20
Engagement?? I didn't think that was in Geoff's language.
captainrats
28th Oct 2005, 06:51
Everyone else,particularly engineering and Cabin Crew has been done over by this swine.
Personally I look to you guys to take the fight to them and not cave in.
At the very least negotiate an arrangement that leaves you with some dignity.
Good Luck!
Wun Wing Lo
28th Oct 2005, 09:23
Would be a fantastic ad campaign for the unions....
Highly paid and generally well informed and organised professional airline pilots, on some of the most competetive rates in the world, are now facing a situation where they are being offered a take it or leave it EBA. Threats have already been made by management if they don't accept it they will lose their entitlements and their jobs will be handed over to "plenty of other blokes who want it".....
What hope for you without all their resources.... bargaining individually.
Is this Howards idea of of increasing job security, wages etc.....
They can play the patriotic card.... fly the flag.... stir the soul with the spirit of australia and i still call australia home...
QF enjoys a brand loyalty similiar to Holden and Ford ... start hitting the brand name hard.... jobs going overseas (get the right wingers wound up... maybe good opportunity for dicks brand maintenance) ... chinese employee safety standards... do they exist (get the lefties going every time)... could your job be next? (kitchener style)... get the me generation screaming....
The slogan as a jet turns off into the sunset... " taking australians overseas for 75 years... now just sending their jobs!"
Wun, I think you've missed your calling in life!! :ok:
polemic
30th Oct 2005, 04:20
Spot on Capt Claret, got to love the lectures intertwined with abuse.
Who in their right mind would throw money at AIPA when a court battle hasn't sorted out if they can actually represent Jetstar pilots.
Slightly curious - how would you compare the perceived "threats and intimidation" made by Mr Dixon, with writs issued against pilots during an industrial confrontation?
Would QANTAS pilots expect to receive at least moral support (and industrial sympathy) during any "confrontation" with QF management?
Or would they expect passive indifference?
It's a big wheel - but it's been kept turning by forces with vested interests.
Don Esson
1st Nov 2005, 10:15
You've got to be kidding! As Qantas pilots have been so busy for so long feathering their own nests while ignoring other groups who have been looking for much needed support, it's highly unlikely that anyone other than the pilots will give a toss.
Fact is, like it or not, many will say 'about f*****G time'. And I have to agree with that sentiment.
Simon Templar
1st Nov 2005, 19:03
...and we thought you didn't care Don.
speedbirdhouse
2nd Nov 2005, 01:12
Don doesn't care about us, Simon..........
Who ARE the groups that you refer to Don?
Big Jan
2nd Nov 2005, 07:39
Some of the groups that fall into the category that Don mentioned are,
The ex Southerns pilots
The Impulse / Jetstar pilots
The National Jet pilots
The Easterns pilots
The Sunstate pilots
Every one of these groups would have benefited from much needed support from the mainline group at one time or another.
Somehow I think if mainline pilots make any sort of stand it will be very much by themselves.
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap"
Back in 1965 or so when I was a sprog F/O on DC3s in Oz, an ex Spitfire pilot from the Big One, who was my Captain at the time, launched into a great tirade against the then Qantas pilots who wanted his/mine/domestic pilots, support for some claim or other!
His view was that they could go and get stuffed!... Because they never, ever, gave a stuff about domestic pilots. Especially since they were poncing about in Oz on airline ops during the war when he was getting shot at overseas!
40 yrs later I see no reason to not support that view still!
Especially since they were poncing about in Oz on airline ops during the war when he was getting shot at overseas!
What a breathtakingly ignorant statement. I'm sure those Qantas pilots still listed as 'Missing- presumed killed' or those that are listed as 'killed due enemy action' appreciate the thoughts and support Amos. At least your Spitfire mate had the opportunity of returning fire.
Many of my Qantas forebears saw more action than would have some of their RAAF bretheren. Interestingly, those QF drivers that are listed missing or listed as killed weren't actually in Australia being shot at by the local CWA militia on a training exercise! I bet they weren't carrying joy riders around either, somehow I suspect their cargo would have been primarily military in nature and their destinations not 'poncing around in Australia'.
Forty years ago you were being ignorant Amos. 40 yrs later I see nothing in your posts to not support that view still! :yuk:
Hmmm!!...you need some history lessons Keg!
Do some research before you mix it with the big boys!
You're out of your depth here son!
It's a shame amos, I'd mostly admired your posts for the experiences that you articulated and your point of view forthrightly put forward. You're right though, I am out of my depth. I should never have admired you opinions.
I may not have been alive in the '60s amos but that doesn't mean that I don't know some of the history of Qantas during WWII. It doesn't take much research to turn up this:
Japanese Zeros shot down Captain Aub Koch's flying boat while he was evacuating women and children from Surabaya. Shot through the arm and leg, he swam 8km ashore. Later when another of his aircraft was lost near Port Moresby, he gave his lifebelt to a passenger and swam unaided for 19 hours. There were many similar acts of heroism.
Or this.....
Qantas crews later served in the battle zones of New Guinea. Combined Qantas and RAAF personnel flew Empire flying boats and Lockheed Lodestars, dropping supplies to Australian troops fighting their way along the famous Kokoda Trail. A Lockheed 10 and two Qantas DH86s later joined the New Guinea supply operations.
Or this.....
Qantas aircraft did a considerable amount of work evacuating civilians and wounded from New Guinea and later carried the first troops back into the area. Throughout the war Qantas maintained tenuous services to Britain, via South Africa at first, then through Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and India. Radio silence was a feature of most of the wartime flights, which included ferrying troops and supplies in extremely hazardous conditions.
Most significantly is this:
The disappearance of the 'Circe'
Early in the morning of 28 February 1942, the last two Qantas Empire flying boats on the regular service between Java and Australia taxied from their moorings at Tjilatjap. The two pilots, Captain Stephen Howard in 'Corinthian' and Captain William Purton in 'Circe' had received instructions from Qantas Airways that they were to evacuate as many persons as possible from Tjilatjap to Broome in Western Australia. 'Corinthian' flew off first at 8.38 am AEST (Australian Eastern Standard Time) and Howard observed 'Circe' leaving its moorings for take-off, just two minutes later.
On board 'Circe' were 16 Dutch nationals and the four crew members:
Captain William Bloxham Purton
First Officer Mervyn William Bateman
Radio Operator Herbert George Anzac Oates
Purser James Lionel Hogan.
All were employees of Qantas,
Qantas alerted Allied aircraft flying over the area to keep a look out for the 'Circe' and also conducted an extensive search for the missing aircraft. No wreckage or bodies have ever been recovered and the mystery of the disappearance of the 'Circe' has never been solved.
What was that about research and being out of my depth pops? :E
DutchRoll
5th Nov 2005, 21:19
I regret to inform you Amos, that Keg is absolutely correct, although he doesn't quite go far enough in mentioning events and incidents Qantas was involved in during WW2.
A couple of incidents include:
QF Capt L.R. Ambrose turning a blind eye to regulations and limitations, and allowing additional evacuees to be crammed on board a QF flying boat on its last evacuation flight out of Singapore.
QF Captains W. Crowther and H. Hussey managing to get their damaged flyingboat Camilla airborne, escaping to Groote Eylandt during the big japanese air raid on Darwin in February 1942. Eight minutes after they took off, the freighter they were moored next to blew up. Incidently, Capt Aub Koch who Keg mentioned in his 1st para, was recovering from his injuries in Darwin hospital at the time of the raid.
I'm not so sure that the fate of the Circe is still a mystery. Japanese archive research by Christopher Shores and Brian Cull while writing their excellent 1993 two-book series 'Bloody Shambles' on the air war over south east asia during WW2 (strongly recommended reading for aviation buffs) indicates that the Circe was claimed shot down by Zeros returning from attacking the US aircraft carrier Langley which was heading for Tjilatjap with a cargo of assembled P40s. They also claimed a 'probable' on a Dutch Catalina, which in fact survived but had to be written off, and shot down one of the zeros. As Keg said, at least it could shoot back. :D
738Capt
5th Nov 2005, 22:08
The current CEO of Qantas would, I think, be happy to hire flight crew from overseas and pay them $45,000 to fly 737/747.
AWA's allow for no minimums, there is no minimum wage when your on a AWA, nor minimum conditions-it is just what you agree to.
So when the LAME's are fired en mass and all work is completed overseas by people on a third the money, and a 747-400 has a explosive decompression at FL41 due to faulty work by some 2nd world under paid contractor - who do we blame? The current C.E.O and Board of Qantas.
The mad push for profit before safety is a VERY serious issue with many airlines. I remember Bangkok - no reverse or idle reverse on landing on a wet runway, with crosswind!! When do pilots step up and say NO to such dangerous practices.
Like the vast majority of Australian pilots I don't have much truck for Qantas drivers, however, I did believe they could at least read. Obviously I was wrong.
BTW Keg, sucking up to me won't get you onside Mate! ;)
Calligula
6th Nov 2005, 07:07
Amos - I just had a look at your profile.
Your endorsements are not indicative of someone that has flown for QF so how the hell can you make an informed judgement on what all the guys are like.
Its not our fault that you $cabbed in 89, nor is it our fault that Ansett went under, nor is it our fault that 89 'reternees' have destroyed conditions and introduced self funded endorsements nor is it our fault that QF is prepared to allow anyone to $cabb on the mainline pilot body providing they will work for nothing.
Kegs very good rebuttal of your post is indicative of why you should think before you post and why, as a washed up has been you probably should cease and desist on this forum
Have a nice day
Enema Bandit's Dad
6th Nov 2005, 07:20
Yeah Amos, you've got a lot of current types. How do you stay current on them all?
Oh Boy!...It's come down to this...
dealing with the riff raff!...gimme a break!
At least Kegs got some style!
:{ :{ :{
With the benefit of hindsight, it would seem feasable to presume that the QANTAS pilots can see the road they're being driven down.
Let me assure you that for all of the "I think QANTAS pilots are wonkers!" rhetoric, not ONE of us from "that" year hope to see you blokes being done over by a greedy, overpaid , self-centred management - presumably with the assistance (again) of the Australian P.M., but from the other side of the spectrum.
QANTAS pilots have had an enviable PAST - not all of it without its occasional rough patch - but the FUTURE is what is now being threatened.
This threat hasn't suddenly appeared - QF employees, and non-QF people have posted on this Bulletin Board, and in the public media, about it for some time...."QANTAS - pigs at the trough", is a headline that comes readily to mind.
There will come a time when QANTAS mainline pilots are going to have to take a stand to ensure that they are not slowly eased out altogether - but whilst fully aware of what is being done to them.
If the "I" in AIPA stands for "International", then perhaps it might be time to fortify defences, by INCLUDING ALL those pilots relegated to flying International flights under the QF banner.
Let's not allow the petty squabbling detract from the task you guys and girls have at hand.
{I see you're doing a bit of suckin' up of your own there, Amos!But you're right, btw, that Keg DOES have a certain okay style :ok: }
At least Kegs got some style!
lol. You guys have obviously never met me! My wife would disagree! :} :ok: