UNIQUE Swiss Pilots !!

[atr42]

Swissair's pilots said they will not agree to work at the same conditions than Crossair's pilots (LX wages ~30% lower than SR). They probably think they are UNIQUE like their airport in Zurich which is called Unique Airport.

A such behavior is totally INDECENT ! Hey guys !!! Wake up.... You will fly with the money of Swiss people and you should be happy to be able to continue to fly because no other private firms would want to hire a 40 or 50 years old pilot. You are probably irreplaceable in a cockpit but outwards you are useless.

Switzerland will probably need to learn to be modest if it want to succeed in something....

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: atr42 ]

[Cisco Kid]

Actually ATR 42 I´m over 50 & have just been hired by a private company at around 2.5 times an annual senior LX captains salary,I agree MM times have changed; but to fly large A/C ,or indeed any A/C,for the lowest airline salaries in W Europe ,& live in one of the most expensive countries in Europe is a bit silly.I support the idea of some compromise of course,but in the end you guys at LX are being conned.Once again.... pilots salaries,within sensible boundaries ,have little bearing on the success of an airline enterprise,you guys are poorly paid & do it for love but LX still made a loss..? you could all fly for free it wouldn´t help, as for winners & losers I have no grudge against any pilot colleagues Anywhere but we all know who the winners will be & it ain´t any of us!.The Swiss feudal(management) system of masters & serfs will continue to flourish unless you stand up for yourselves,try it, it feels good even if you don´t reach all your goals.Regards Cisco

[maxalt]

Well said Cisco Kid.

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Regardless to the LX salaries, I think you would have to be pretty arrogant to make such demands when your company is on the verge of bankruptcy.

As for Cisco Kid, congrats on finding a job that pays so well ! However, does that private company have enough vacancies for the entire ex-SR pilot corps ?

What will you fly ? A GV, or Global Express ? I think that you´re talking about a different economic scale here in a totally different sector of the aviation industry, with different rules as far as costs vs. gains.

[Payscale]

CISCO - well put....all the best to you.

[Mishandled]

We live in a market driven world, so if there are SR pilots who can command higher salaries than they would get on LX scales, then fair play to them. I hope that all the SR guys are successful, however, I do think that they could be alot more diplomatic about it. There are a lot of people here in Balsberg that are losing their jobs and are unlikely to have the same ability to get another job. :(

[Cisco Kid]

Mishandled,I wish you & Balsberg colleagues all the very best! the job market for pilots is also at an all time low & a lot of really good people from all depts. of SR will be looking for something new;& I truly hope the good times will follow the bad :Best wishes Cisco...

[dallas dude]

Crossair/Swissair guys and gals,

Listen VERY carefully, I shall say zis only once....next time around negotiate a real scope clause. (Unless you want to be replaced in ten years time by another alter ego carrier.)

Don't worry about the money right now. Ensure you have reasonable work rules/duty conditions. The money will follow if you "own" the flying!

Good luck,

dd

[YakYak]

Grassy Knoll,
What PRECISELY, do you mean by real scope clause, and "own the flying"?
Details, Dallas Dude, DETAILS!

Love the German accent, BTW! :D

[KADS]

All in favour of Cisco Kid. Well said!

[timmccall]

Allot of the U.S. mainline pilots had a "no furlough" scope clause and look where it got them. A kick in but and then out the door! Scope isnt worth the paper it is written on. :eek:

[Green Guard]

About the Swiss life
P.S.

You know you've been living in Switzerland too long when:

...you get annoyed when the car ahead of you doesn't turn off it's
motor at a traffic light.
...you think it's wasteful to have more than one brand of a product
in a store.
...you think getting up early is good.
...you think sponteniaty is OK, as long as it's planned.
...you actually get interested in the local elections.
...you prefer to buy in small shops even though its more expensive.
...you expect the shop clerk to say goodbye after you purchase
something.

...you think that plaid jackets with flowery ties don't look that
bad.
...you think it's fair that you can only wash clothes once a month.
...you wonder why anyone would want to shop outside of working hours.
...you get concerned about all the foreigners moving into the
country.
...you become suspicious of people who think independently.
...you pull out in front of another car, to reserve your place.
...you think it's OK to drive slow on Sundays.
...you reserve your table first, before getting food in a cafeteria.
...you feel like you're broke if you have less that SFr. 300 in your
pocket.
...you dress up to go grocery shopping.
...you wear white socks with black shoes.
...you wish the Swiss government would do something about refugees.
...you understand why Chinese food should cost more than normal food.
...you think it's OK for a Chinese restaurant to be run by a Swiss
and staffed by Spaniards and Portugese.

...your German is better than the waiter's.
...you start thinking, 'Why can't they just speak Schwiizerduetsch?'
...you start preparing costumes for Fasnacht.
...you join a Guggemusik band.
...you try to defend cartel based economics to a visitor.
...you are willing to pay higher prices, because it ensures higher
quality.
...you wish that your town had expensive garbage bags too.
...you don't mind waiting in restuarants.
...you don't think it's funny when someone confuses Switzerland with
Sweden.
...you get upset when someone thinks Switzerland's 4th language is
English.

...you think Thursday night shopping is really convenient.
...you decline an invitation because you have to clean your
apartment.
...you think it's normal for a family with kids to live in an
apartment.
...you consider it normal to make reservations to see a movie.
...you like the pause during a movie, so that you can smoke a
cigarette.
...you prefer fizzy mineral water to tap water.
...you prefer Swiss wine.
...you expect a slice of lemon in your coke.
...you throw a party and expect everyone to leave by 11:30 pm.
...you clean up during parties.
...you expect dinner guests to help with the washing up.
...you begin to understand the subtlity of the Swiss cusine.
...you appreciate the differences between the cantons.
...you feel really hungry if you don't start eating lunch by 12:00.
...you have breakfast cereal for dinner.
...you say Gruezi to everyone, and consider it impolite when they
don't say it back.
...you don't mind paying SFr.12 for a paperback book.
...you think that air conditioning makes people sick.
...you think that milk and butter prices should be regulated.
...you complain when your neighbor flushes his toilet after 10 pm.
...you call the police when you see someone washing their car on a
Sunday.

...you aren't surprised when a perfectly good road is torn up and
repaved.
...you expect bacon to have bits of bone in it.
...you wonder why anyone would want such a big refrigerator.
...you think that PTT approved telephones are better.
...you buy a new one instead of getting it repaired.
...you think that 3% unemployment is high.
...you think it was through its own efforts that Switzerland stayed
out of World War II.
...you consider getting goats and sheep to graze in your backyard.
...you only eat fondue in winter.

...you become interested in the myriad of insurance offerings.
...you take part in Jass tournaments.
...you get interested in Schwingen.
...you volunteer to help organize the Dorffest.
...you expect to be delayed by road works.
...you become concerned about the color of your neighbor's curtains.
...you put Aromat on all your food.
...you think that Switzerland's conservation efforts make a
difference.
...you think it's OK to wear red Levis.
...you think that large American cars are 'cool'.
...you worry about getting a cold when there's a draft.
...you know someone who has been fined by the garbage police.
...you don't mind spending all day in the restaurant at a ski
resort,and wonder why all the foreigners insist on
skiing when the conditions are less than optimal.
...you become offended when reading this.

That's life !! (in Switzerland, anyway !)

[Raas767]

If SR pilots are about to be merged with Crossair then it represents an opportunity to raise overall salaries by 35%,not the otherway around. Both pilot groups need to show unity and be prepared to withhold service unless adequate compensation and work rules can be secured for both groups.Pilots have an enormous amount of leverage. Use it.No airline has EVER gone out of business because of pilot salaries.

[+TS]

Crossairs's lower cost structure is the mean reason why it is succesfull.
Swissair's high cost structure is one of the reasons why it is bancrupt.

[The Guvnor]

raas767 says No airline has EVER gone out of business because of pilot salaries.

Well pilot - and management - greed has played a very major role in the fact that out of all of the US majors, only Southwest has practiced financial prudence and put money aside for a rainy day. The others - especially American, Delta and United - got into a p1ss1ng contest with each other to see who would have the highest paid pilots: even though it was blatantly obvious that a recession was around the corner.

These carriers are now stuck with additional costs of well over half a billion dollars a year each. Smart thinking, guys! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

Now, Crossair is trying to pick up the pieces of Swissair in a deal that has attracted a great deal of opposition from the EU. When SR was given permission to buy EU airlines, the Swiss government agreed that they would abide by EU rules affecting government bailouts and subsidies - they have reneged on that agreement.

There will be a lot of changes to the industry on both sides of the Atlantic, and you can expect things like Scope Clauses to disappear out of the window - along with those insanely high salaries (for both senior management and pilots).

[TowerDog]

Wow, wow, slow down The Guvnor.

Those insane high salaries ya are talking about, have not seem them at this end of the stick.

AA had a B-scale up untill August this year.
Yup that is 2001.

My total income this year as a B-767 F/O for AA is $25,000.

Wish I could get my hands on the high pay you are talking about, it sure would make up for some of the crap I have had to eat in this business over the past 23 years.

Some of the most senior folks have decent incomes, yes, but not every year over a 35-40 year flying career.
My AVERAGE income as a proffesional pilot since I got my commercial ticket in 1978, including furloughs and un-employment etc, probably amounts to $25,000 per annum or less.

Not complaining, but my situation is not unique, many other guys have been carving their way up the ladder, supplementing the flight instructor job with scrubbing airport toilets and such.

Almost had a warm and fuzzy feeling about getting on the A scale and making a good income for the last few years of the flying career, but instead facing a very real furlough...

Greedy pilots?
Uh, make that hungry pilots.

:D :D

[exeng]

Tower Dog,

When you state, <<My total income this year as a B-767 F/O for AA is $25,000.>> Are you sure this is true?!!

We in the U.K. are led to believe that you 'over there' recieve fantastic salaries that we can only dream about.

The majority of F/O's I fly with recieve far more than that in ££££'s.


Regards
Exeng

[TowerDog]

Exeng:

Of course I am sure it is true...Duh

Think I would lie? And for what reason?

First year pay with most US Majors are so- called probation pay: In my case $2,207.00 per month as an B-727 F/E. Did that the first 5 months of the year, then over to the B-757/B-767 as an F/O. Monthly pay upped to $2,562.00. After 10 months of this my total pay for 2001, is about $25,000 so far, including a few hours of extra pay, per-diem or meal allowance, etc.

Second year pay goes up quite a bit, unless ya are on B-scale. AA got read of B-scale August 2001, so I will go right to A-scale in February 2002. If I get furloughed before February, I won't go to any scale :D :D :D

All the various pay rates are public knowledge and can be obtained from FAPA and such places.

[Sid's Stars]

Come on Guv I like your posts (well most of them) and I reckon you know a lot more about the real state of the industry BUT this last post of yours is a bit OTT, mate!

How many pilots at each of the US majors get the top whack anyway? In any case, youve got no chance of getting rid of them because its LIFO all the way over there and its guys like TD that get shafted, and things will never change coz theres too many people there with vested interests including the unions.

I work in Europe and its the private airlines which are suffering as the governments are just pumping in more cash into the state airlines and putting two fingers up at the EU.

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose!

[doubleUanchor]

I am an "uniquely, arrogant Swissair Pilot", yet I had nothing to do with the collapse of my airline. Except go to work, fly as safely and efficiency as possible, for the market salary of the day? I have even been known to talk conversationally with Crossair pilots, some of whom I know quite well!!

The cock-up at Swissair was made by past MANAGEMENT and the BORED of DIRECTORS.

If we Swissair pilots flew as they have managed we would be talking deaths here not the loss of a company. They have made some horrible mistakes, yet all we read about in the Swiss press is the unreasonably high salaries of SWR pilots. I get no more money than an equivalent British Airways, KLM, Lufthansa, or Air France Captain?

What about the fancy "golden parachutes" these managers and directors took for cocking-up an airline that five years ago had CHF4 billion in a bank (don't get me started on Swiss banks!). Further, have you ever heard a Crossair pilot discussing the wild amounts that their management or their directors take from their company?

The last few week's events at Swissair are a direct result of the management's mistakes from five years ago. The Swissair ship has been doomed since then and only looking for a jagged rock upon which to flounder?

Mr. Suter popped into our management for five weeks earlier this year, had a quick look at the bank accounts and decided he'd be best to go back to Basle and just wait. He was right. SEP 11 was that jagged rock. But it still had nothing to do with me in my cockpit doing my job?

SEP 11 is being used by poorly managed/financed airlines the world over as the sole reason they are in trouble. Rubbish! SEP 11 is a general scapegoat for a lot of unattended problems at Swissair, sure, but also at a majority of other airlines. Airline management has to stop blaming its tools and look at its own pathetic performance?

If they were pilots they would all be given a bit more simulator time, I think?

[YakYak]

DoubleUanchor:
Well Said!
Good Luck to you. :(

[LAVDUMPER]

Towerdog,

Your $25K income estimate is bogus!

I have many friends who fly at AA - many of whom fly smaller equipment and are newly-hired (e.g., new 738 FO, 727 FE) and nobody makes less than $40K - most make more than that... My brother is a Delta 757/767 FO in only his second year and he earns $90K+ and is expecting to make $100K+ next year IF he isn't bumped from his plane...

You may not have a reason to lie, but you may need to recalculate... Not trying to contradict you - just think a recalculation is necessary...

Cheers

[TowerDog]

Lavdumper:

Bogus?
No need to recalculate anything, on the last pay-stub is gives the total $ for the year.
How the f@ck do ya recalculate that?

If ya are calling somebody elses numbers bogus, ya better know what ya are talking about, and ya don't. :rolleyes:

[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: TowerDog ]

[YakYak]

Lavdumper and TowerDog:
Slightly off thread, aren't we chaps?
You nice fellows in the colonies who HAVE jobs, should be rather pleased no matter what the pay. And besides, last time I checked, we were yaking about the situ near Jungfrau and the Eiger!
Have a nice day! :p :p :p

[Kubota]

DoubleU has a point. The Guv (brrrrr - shivers) went off about absurd pilot salaries being the cause of the financial problems of the majors.

Same same here in the FH. While Tony The Liar quotes HK$3 million as "a pilots salary" (cr@p) we have yet to hear ANY of DT's lads tell the SCMP what they pocketed last year!

TowerDog, if it's any consolation, I believe you.

God Bless The USA

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: Kubota ]

[TowerDog]

YakYak:

"Slightly off thread" ?

Well, I was responding to the Guvnor, if ya don't like reading it, ya don't have to.

"Should be glad to have a job"

Go back to my posting again where it says:
"I am not complaining".

Sorry about having to explain all that in details, but you don't seem too bright and may need some help.

Have a nice day. :rolleyes:

[raitfaiter]

I would have thought that the next shareholders meeting at Nestle will be interesting.....how will the CEO explain the value of 'investing' in a guaranteed loss making enterprise like son of swissair? Its not only the pilots that are living in the past....... :eek:

[dallas dude]

LAVDUMPER....I'm happy to confirm that Towerdog's NOT filling your honeycart full of used blue stuff, he speaks the truth (he'll soon be at 2nd yr pay though!).


47guy....US carriers have abrogated contracts by claiming "Force Majeure". If you really believe what you posted you'd best stick with the blue or green mouthwash version (Scope).


YakYak....Scope is a term applied to set limited growth (and protect the incumbent) such that a carrier's flying doesn't get passed around to the cheapest common denominator. Eg,if you think back a few years, running shoes were made in Hong Kong. Then along came Vietnam who obviously manufactured them for a lower cost. Now, pretty much everything is made in China, at the lowest cost. Equate this to airline pilots and a scope clause may have found the Hong Kong folks still in employment. Bit more to it than that but that's all that'll fit on this nutshell.


Guvnor....before you give us a whole farthings worth of your wisdom on the above, check out the Chinese carriers' safety performance.


Cheers,dd
(and yes, I know the US ain't perfect-never said it was)

[The Guvnor]

Ummm, Dallas Dude - perhaps you might like to compare the number of incidents per 1,000 departures in the US and China! :D :D :D

[YakYak]

TowerPup:
Where did you learn your economics?
We live in a new world now.
Much as I'd love to subscribe to your mag, the maths just don't add up!
Luv Ya!

Lets be nicer to each other!
:) ;) :) :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Huck]

How 'bout this:

Every passenger pay the captain one US dollar an hour. Pay the f/o 70 cents an hour. Think the market could bear that?

[Ignition Override]

Huck: That might work out with above break-even load factors on some planes.

How about allowing our flight attendants to be tipped? In that case they just might have a retirement to look forward to, if tipping were required. Each pax pays 50 cents per FA crewmember, in order to be served.

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[TowerDog]

YakYak:

Not sure what ya are yakking about:

"Where did I learn economics?"
??

"Subscribe to my mag?"
??

"Math does not add up?"
??

Perhaps ya have me mixed up with somebody else, or ya been smoking that weed again?

:confused:

Would be happy to answer yer questions if I knew what ya were talking about.