Silence on Pakistan operations

[Cargo Cult]

Maybe I've missed something, but it seems quite astonishing that at a time when surely the biggest issue curently involving helicopters is the Pakistan earthquake, not a single thread here refers to it.

Meanwhile there's no shortage of contributions on "the best torch..." and juvenile mass-debating over personal firearms etc - plus the inevitable bickering over Robinsons (I'm guessing on the last one).

Given the gravity of the situation in Pakistan and the centrality of helicopters to the relief effort I'd expected to see something of interest.

Perhaps no-one's interested?

[Ned-Air2Air]

CC - I doubt people arent interested, I would say the reason for not much discussion is apart from the Pakistani military there are bugger all helicopters there.

I have been talking to friends in Kabul and some of their Mi-8s have gone over to help in the relief efforts, congrats to them :ok: :ok: :ok:

I am surprised how little the civil helo industry has done when it comes to getting helos to the quake area. When we were in Banda Aceh helicopters were coming out of the woodwork, yet 3 weeks after the quake happened all I have seen so far is the two Chinooks sent by the UK :ok: and now some mil helos from the US military :ok:

Where are all these operators who were so quick to help in Indonesia. :confused: :confused:

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

[SASless]

Ned,

Sheer geography works against them...it is a long way from anywhere and not all that many aircraft in the immediate area. Aramco has some aircraft in Saudi...as does the Saudi military...there are some aircraft in Iran doing offshore work but not very many....the Iranians have a lot of broke Bell's left over from the Shah's days...Gulf, Aerogulf, and Abu Dhabi are in the Persian Gulf but again a long way away.

[Ned-Air2Air]

SASless - Fair comment but do you think Banda Aceh was nereby :confused:

Aircraft were ferried from NZ to Indonesia for the Tsunami and helos were sent from South Africa and the USA by IL76 and other heavy freighters. There was a lot of discussion about these aid companies with helo assets a their disposal but where the heck are they now :mad:

Anyway I think more could have been done, like the old saying, where theres a will theres a way.

Ned

[B Sousa]

I will take bets that the Military may not allow too many "unapproved Aircraft" in that area. Beside the Earthquake fault, its also not politically stable.

Then the other thought. Whos gonna pay? Operators are not into volunteering their aircraft for free. Humanitarian in this world means "Show me the Money"

[mini]

B Sousa is on the money, word from ground zero is that the PAK gov is causing all kinds of problems - may be unintentional but you know the way these places work... :sad:

[Cyclic Hotline]

Who's hiring?

Despite repeated offers to assist in various activities around the World, we, along with a large number of Operators never got hired.

It is impossible to find out how is co-ordinating the logistical contracting of the equipment, and then it seems to be on some kind of random basis.

The Operators know the capability and capacity of the machines that can provide real value in instances of this type. This however may have little bearing on what is getting hired and who is providing them.

Perhaps if the agencies involved responded to the proposals that the Operators submitted, then they might get a real response. Better still, if they provided detailed requests for proposals and submissions, they might get a faster, better defined response, and they might get more bang for their buck.

It is like all business of this nature. If you are in the right place at the right time, you may well get hired. You also need the right contacts, especially when the contracting system is running at capacity and they have limited ability to respond to unknown vendors. A lot of it appears organized at a Governmental level, especially as the funding may come from specific governments, and logisitically, it makes more sense to bring in the closest resources in the region. Of course, you have to have a receptive government to allow foreign operators in anyway.

I seriously doubt that any large scale commercial helicopter support will be forthcoming following this disaster, unless the magnitude of the after events becomes a collosal disaster.

Maybe it is time that an international listing of operators defining capability and location should be compiled. It is also essential that any response provides the management, operational structure and logistical planning to actually utilise the equipment - safely. There is no point in sending a bunch of machinery that no-one knows how to utilise, or they have no fuel for! In many of these responses, time is absolutely of the essence if they are to contribute in the primary rescue stage. It seems that every time there is any natural disaster there is a void, as the extent of the damage is assessed, then the services are contracted, and finally they show up.

Maybe if we as an industry worked together on this issue, we might actually achieve somwthing positive and useful to those unfortunate enough to require our services.

[Ian Corrigible]

Haven't seen much mention of civil assets, but the US Army is committing up to 40 CH-47s (some shipped directly from the CONUS, and some diverted from OEF duties), while Afghanistan has provided half a dozen Mi-17s.

The scale of the emergency seems to have caught the international community out. Although NATO has recently committed to provide air relief assets, when Islamabad originally asked for helicopter assets a couple of days after the quake the organization formally declined to provide assets from on-going ops North of the border (8/12). Fortunately for NATO, the news agencies haven’t picked this up.

And as B Souza hints, Pakistan has already rejected Indian helo assets unless they were delivered without crews (kinda like Syria asking Israel to loan it a squadron of Black Hawks or Apaches). Surprisingly enough, India declined...

:rolleyes:

I/C

[B Sousa]

And as B Souza hints, Pakistan has already rejected Indian helo assets unless they were delivered without crews (kinda like Syria asking Israel to loan it a squadron of Black Hawks or Apaches). Surprisingly enough, India declined...

Now thats a good one......Yea, ship us your helicopters and see if you get them back.....ha ha
I think this will pretty much be a Military Operation, when thats over, thats it.

[moosp]

Likewise I was surprised at the lack of discussion, but as Ned points out, perhaps thats the way the Pakistan military want it.

An article on the front page of Saturday's FT has the word "helicopters" five times in ten column inches. Each word is associated with the lack of them. For instance:

Jan Egeland, UN disaster relief honcho reprted that "he had only limited success in his call for light helicopters to distribute the aid."

"NATO continues to experience problems in supplying helicopters to distribute aid to those most in need."

"Efforts to secure more have resulted only in commitments from Germany for four more"

James Jones, of NATO, "Helicopters have been a real problem for us to generate, not only for Pakistan but also for Afghanistan."

A "senior Pakistani official" refering to Chinooks said, "If such US helicopters arrive soon, their capacity could make a world of difference."

It is so frustrating knowing the potential of a helicopter to save lives and reduce suffering and then watching people die for their want. As Cyclic points out, most operators know what their machines can do, but even the public can see that a ton of water can keep a village going for a day, a ton of food for two days, a ton of blankets for a week. And that is three trips for a light machine, 300 people relieved. Now lets fly in the MSF team.

I would suspect that the Pakistani military (who are the government, essentially) just cannot let go and see foreign commercial operators carry out operations of which they are incapable. But the slow, slow reaction time of the big organisations such as the UN and NATO tied up in their red tape is also to blame.

Anyone want to set up a "Helicopters San Frontiers"?

[B Sousa]

Anyone want to set up a "Helicopters San Frontiers"?

Sounds Great. Whose Money will we use??

[Ned-Air2Air]

One thing I will say is that a lot of operators are skeptical about sending helos to this part of the world, and I am talking India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka etc.

Tim Wahlberg and the guys from Evergreen took a plane load of supplies to Sri Lanka when the Tsunami hit and had a horrible time with the B/S there. They flew more things in in their Gulfstream, GIV and at about 1am in the morning they got a call from some Govt official telling them that if they didnt get their aircraft out of the country within a couple of hours they were going to seize it. Talk about an ungrateful attitude.

If the military want to play these sorts of games then they should scream and bitch when no one wants to come and help them.

The comments that its a civil war area cant be founded as Aceh provence where we were in Indonesia has been in a state of armed conflict for decades.

Anyway, on a seperate note I am starting to put together a site where companies, pilots and engineers etc can post their details and we will try and help co-ordinate some sort of response when the next disaster hits. Its not if, but when. We have lined up support etc from people and the support from Tim etc at Evergreen to ship helos around the world has been tremendous. I will keep you all posted once the site becomes active.

Cheers

Ned

[Cargo Cult]

The posts already made are along the lines of what I was previously expecting to see - in the sense that some discussion of the relationship between the resources that are potentially available and the political will to marshall them is overdue. Let's hope that this may stimulate some additional activity. Meanwhile the weather up there is getting worse by the day.

[moosp]

Bert, Who's money will we use?

The same peoples money that the other 5,000 odd NGO's use. Other peoples, given of their own free will. There's a lot of it out there, it just needs smart people to harvest it.

True we are talking bigger bucks than a mom and pop charity, but I believe a small Quick Reaction team of, say ten medium machines and a couple of transports plus logistics could be funded. Stick the Microsoft Foundation Logo on the side for a start...

[rotorlogic]

I've tried to volunteer my services as a loadmaster in the relief efforts for both the Boxing Day tsunami and the recent South Asian earthquake but the larger organisations don't appear to have any involvement in the aviation side of things.

Judging by the entries in this thread, there doesn't actually appear to be a whole lot of efficient action in terms of getting help to the tens of thousands that are slowly freezing to death on the mountain slopes.

I would definitely be interested in working as a volunteer with an airborne emergency response team or with any company responding to humanitarian disasters of this type.

Seems a terrible shame and indictment that the delivery of aid must be compromised when so many people are prepared to help.

[BigMike]

CC, I think you will find most people do care it's just that there has been little real info regarding civil operations. Other than the offer from India that was rejected, I have heard little regarding civilian operators or much in general regarding helicopters on the media here. If someone were to put a post on this site asking for pilots to volunteer I'm sure they would get a great response. Give me a call. If my boss lets me go, I'll be there tomorrow. Quite happy to pay my own air-fare.

People are free to post anything they want. Your "rant" before was a bit uncalled for. If you don't have an interest in a particular thread, then don't read it.

You yourself could have started a topic on Pakistan earlier...

[Cargo Cult]

Hardly a rant! I can do rants too, and this wasn't one of them!
Anyone looking at this board as an indication of where participants' priorities lie would be likely to notice what I pointed out - none too subtly, I admit. But was I wrong in substance? Responses so far would seem to indicate otherwise.
As for starting the thread myself, as a "civilian" I'm reluctant to put my fourpence worth in and finally did so only because I couldn't believe no-one else had.
Many good suggestions have been made but as someone outside the industry I'm not the best person to pursue them. Allocating and funding resources from the civil sector to relief operations is surely possible if the will exists though - even if a Microsoft logo's the only way to do it...
As an aside, one thing that struck me several times in the news coverage was the debate about supplying the victims with relief in situ, as against lifting them out. There are obviously lots of variables involved but nowhere did I see even rough estimates of the total lift capacity required to get the worst affected proportion of the victims out before weather conditions make supply/resupply an impossibility.

[BigMike]

CC, don't let the fact you’re a civilian stop you. It didn't stop you accusing everyone here of giving "Torches and Guns" more priority than earthquake relief. How would you know the priorities I, or anyone else who posts here have. Have a good read through the “Tsunami” and “Katrina” threads, and you will get an idea about what people in this industry think when it comes to concern for others, and helping them.

I look at Pprune for the sometimes very informative threads, industry goss, and the occasional very funny thread. This Forum is for people in the industry, or those interested, to ask anything they want. Do all topics have to be serious? I deal with serious things on a daily basis, and it's good to go to a site with a wide verity of topics, and questions which are sometimes anything but serious. There probably hasn’t been much said for the reasons given, and also because you will find this subject was covered a lot with these 2 recent disasters.

I’m glad you’re upset about the plight of these people, as we all are, and if the they suddenly ask for pilot volunteers for light-singles, I’ll be keen.
Quick poll: Hands up anyone else who wants to go if there’s an offer? What about you CC? You may not be a pilot, but I’m sure you could lend a hand somewhere.

"Helicopters San Frontiers" sounds great. Money is the problem as always. Anyone know Bill…

[rotorlogic]

I've had loadmaster experience with heavy longline operations in mountainous terrain and can go on a few days notice.

Maybe we should just assume that there are loads of professionals and semipros that are just as eager as me to help, rather than scramble for the moral high ground or at least self-righteously ensure our right to its perilous access.

I'm a newbie on this forum and, in fact ,only came on board trying to get information about how I might become involved in the disaster relief because it seems that poorer countries are more prone to accept huge death tolls, and, that disorganization and corruption often hold sway because of the poor infrastructure.

I think Helicopters Sans Frontiers (HSF) is a great idea (although the name might be more original), and I am interested in getting something going.

If we started a thread and/or drew up a list of people who were ready to participate, or better yet formed an association of some type, then that would be a collective entity that carried some real weight in any communication.

Contancting a relief organisation or Microsoft or whoever and saying HSF has 20 or 50 people or 10 teams ready to fly on a few days notice has got to provide far more penetration of the chaos and get real attention compared to individual efforts that disappear off the radar faster than a UFO!!

[moosp]

One of the biggest logistical problems that I can see with a "Helicopter Sans Frontieres" type organisation is getting the required permissions to fly into someone else's country. Medecin Sans Frontieres simply go in as tourists or sneak across a border if they are banned from a country, and work till they are thrown out.

That won't work for a helicopter team. They will need diplomatic clearance from half a dozen government departments who don't talk to each other, and some representatives may well want a cut of the proceeds to a numbered account before they lift a pen. Ned alluded to this problem in Aceh.

I was thinking along the lines of an organisation that had a very prominent name as a figurehead. A respected, retired politician like Mary Robinson, Margaret Thatcher, Bill Clinton (yes I know...) or Kofi Annan (sp?) when he retires. Someone who can pick up a phone to any world leader and tell them what we want to do. Maybe a big cheese in industry would have the contacts. Trawl through the invited list to the World Economic Forum and you get the idea.

I remember reading an opinion that Jimmy Carter did much more good using his influence as an ex president than he ever did in office. He is not the only one, and most of these guys are bored silly, dying to get on the world stage again.

Permissions to enter a disaster struck country must come from the top, after that it's up to the teams. As has been mentioned before however, remember that aid is 90% logistics and 10% flying.



FWIW

[rotorlogic]

Firstly, and initially, you would only be responding to cataclysmic events, so one would hope that at least some of the red tape would be eliminated.

There were plenty of aircraft flying in to Aceh after a few days so it can't have been that difficult to get in.

Secondly, if you had some sort of formalized association you might be able to operate under the auspices of the UN or other august body, which would provide a lot more legitimacy.

Thirdly, by acting as a group offering rapid response rotor wing intervention in the face of calamity you would be providing an invaluable service that no other entity outside of the armed forces could, so that would command respect.

In both the tsunami and earthquake disasters, the only way you could get into much of the devastated landscape was by helicopter.

After the tsunami, I was absolutely stunned to realize that despite the millions of computers that are seamlessly connected via the internet, nobody was able to warn places like Sri Lanka even though they had at least an hour to warn the coastal dwellers and despite the fact that Hawaiian and Japanese agencies knew of the threat almost immediately.

How much aid could a dozen Chinooks and Mil-26s deliver in a day?

Then again, why didn't they just fly a few containerized RO water purification plants into New Orleans the same way?

[Sammie_nl]

The only civil registered helicopter I've seen in photoreports is a Bulgarian registered Hip flying for the UN. All other choppers were either CH-53 and Chinooks from either the US marines/army and the HEER. And off course a huge load of Hips from the Pakistani and Afghanistan Armed Forces have been in action.

[BUSHJEPPY]

the Red Cross got 2 Pumas, 4 MI-8MTV and 1 MI-8T operating nearly from the beginning of this rescue operation. Some more should follow soon.
They are expecting a MI-26 for a sling operation in some of the inaccessible valleys to bring shelter material and food. They could use some help from Rotorlogic's expertise. Pls PM me if your offer is still valid.

[moosp]

Ah, here we are, slipped to page two already, so here is a back to the top mail.

Short lived concern of man, I think Robert Frost termed it.

As most of us see further difficulties in developing helicopter operations for business and pleasure, let us open this new one. Charity plus 5%. It is a good business model, and has been tested for many years.

I imagine a video promo that starts with the helicopter assault from 'Apocalypse Now' morphing into helicopters from this organisation, landing and doing good stuff.

Yes, I know it is fantasy, but this is a brain-storm web site too, and until we motivate a core team, the ideas will wither.

Initial team.

One director, ex NGO, well connected.
Two logistics experts, heli ops experienced. Build data base of available machines.
Three politicos, to build the consumer base.
Four fund sourcing experts. Ex business or NGO.

After six months:

One highly visible figurehead, known in a positive light to most presidents.
Three operations staff, ready to go.
One engineering manager for dispersed helicopter operations.

It may deflate ppruners, that it is only at this point that we need to consider pilots. But one tooth out of the wheel stops the machine.

These are just thought, folks. I know out there those of you in the industry who are already doing this stuff may laugh at my naivety, but you must admit there is room for improvement. Sometimes a new point of view can help, and I would be delighted to hear any comments, pro or anti.

[rotorlogic]

Hey, I shared roughly the same fantasy and even heard the Ride of the Valkyries playing in my mind's ear.

I love the smell of passionate altruism in the morning!

I think that you have to start with a collective of motivated people who can establish a professional identity and use it to generate some momentum.

Then, you need to talk to individuals directly involved in the organizational process of a major international relief operation, and sell the idea, and ask them about the fundamentals required for best use of such a rapid rotorwing response team.

Consideration of the logistical requirements necessary to support the team and the precise make up of the group that would drive the developmental phase would then be meaningful.

Bottom line - conventional delivery is much too slow, which means people dying unnecessarily, and there is no doubt that a rapid response team could do a much better job particularly if it was set up to mobilize rapidly and if it's ability to do so was promoted in the 'corridors of power'.

Seems like there's a few people thinking alike here!!

[Blackhawk9]

Interesting concept of Helos with no borders but what equip to use ? Speed of operation set up/reliability /ease of operation, my choice would be for the fixedwing IL76 -cheap, reliable good payload, with the L100/C-130 as second choice (smaller payload and expence(Eastern bloc v Western ac cost). The important one the Helo's!!!! I believe the 212 is the choice machine I know the Puma, Super Puma, Mil 8/17 are all more capable but are also to large to transport and get into action in a short time, an IL76 with 2x212 on board could land at a disaster area offload and have the 212's in action in hours with the IL76 acting as tanker and homebase for the crews until more formal disaster relief support is set up. I think this would work well I know people will come out with lots of wonderful ideas, with bigger more glamourous machines but the fact is you want to get into a disaster zone and in operation asap, I have worked on S.Pumas,Hueys, Blackhawks and Chinooks and if any of them are airtransported into a place the 205/212 is flying days before the others and speed is the key. Let the military come in a week later with the big toys , get in early and start saving people with the 212's now!

[siddar]

I wouldnt count on IL76 once there is a need for them there will be a shortage as goverments lacking there own transports rent all of avaiable planes to ship there own aid.

I would use 747 cargo planes to ship in your helicopters, crew, ground suport people and basic suport gear. I would try to get UPS DHL are FedX to do this for free and base your helicopters near there major hubs for fastest posable deployments.

Then you need to get some C130s for resuplying your helicopters once you are deployed. You will probaly have to pay for these yourself as I doubt large cargo haulers would be willing to provide free resuply.

Maybe a split of one C130 for moveing suplys from major airport to remote smaller airports and a longer range midsize cargo plane to move suplys into country. You may be able to get NGOs to provide you with suplys and cover your fuel cost if you show yourself as being able to deliver results.

Last you will probally be shipping your helicopters home by boat so need to arange for that as well.

[Geoffersincornwall]

One guy's idea was transformed a few years later into a mega-project that grew from supplying 900 units a year to more than 15,000 a year.

What's behind the success? Well the equation includes military style precision and organisation combined with some business nouse.

If you are looking for a 'model' for the delivery side then take a look

www.shelterbox.org

G

:ok:

[Sammie_nl]

I wouldn't use the 747 for transport of your "Helos without frontiers" venture. Too much ground equipment and infrastructure is needed to support those babies. You need a modern airport, and somehow disasters happen in area's where there is a lack of properly operating infrastructure. You need something that can stand alone. Or better yet, make your payload "containerised". Have your gear somewhere in containers, ready to be pucked up by any sort of transport, either hired equipment, or hitching a ride on a militairy transporter. Then you don't need to have your own fixed wing asset.

As for helos, they must be easy to move, without too much hassle they should be able to be re-assembled shortly after arrival. It sounds like a perfect job for a helicopter that was used for ship-based operations. They were made with SAR and sling-jobs in mind, small, and maintance was designed in such way that it can be supported by a small crew. So that means the S-2G Seasprite or Ka-32 come to mind.

just my 2 cents off course

[moosp]

Blackhawk9, good point. Although it is early days to be talking machines, the speed of deployment is critical, so anything that can fly two hours out of the "box" (be it an IL76 hold or a shipping crate) is the one to look at. As I posted earlier, a couple of tonnes airlifted in or out on the first day can save lots of lives.

All the glamour stuff with heavy lift can be provided by the military and UN a week later. The rapid intervention model is similar to the RI fire tenders at your local airport, motocyle paramedics, police on bicycles. Get there first and start working. Also most importantly, feed back information to base so that resources can be properly assigned.

Siddar, the idea is that these transports would already be allocated to this organisation, so no one else can rent them. Who owns, or leases what varies by the business model, so there are several options. By registering the machines in a well chosen country where a combination of low cost registration and apparent world neutrality is available, they would not be liable to be sequested either. I like your point about intermediate range re-supply.

Still the most critical vector is permission to operate.

[rotorlogic]

Personally, I have a lot of time for the Kamov KA-32 because it is designed for portability, rapid deployment, shipboard operation etc.

Although all the suggestions with respect to best machines and logistical requirements are probably valid, it seems to me that we are getting ahead of ourselves with discussion of helicopter acquisition.

Who is going to pay for the equipment? Who is it going to be avaialble to? How many disasters will the rapid rotorwing response team be mobilised for exactly? What regions?

Some of the major corporations, like GM in the US, use software based on evolutionary algorithms to predict where resources can be placed to optimum advantage.

Perhaps a better operational model would be an information-based organisation that sourced people, helis and infrastructural support as the need arose.

Keep it relatively simple and maintain an updated database of available pilots and crew and their respective specialities, as well as the locations of usable machinery which will be available in times of crisis.

This might be a better way of implementing and developing the idea, proving it without massive upfront and holding costs.

[moosp]

Today I read that the helicopter operations in Pakistan may cease due to lack of funds. It seems that the pledged funds from various countries have not materialised. Yet another reason to find an alternative system to the present one.

Rotorlogic, yes it is too early to talk machines, but any input in a brainstorm is worthwhile. We can note it for later. Kamov sounds good, although dollar cost of aquisition per lift kilo might be expensive. As a sky crane, the best, but sometimes relief transports need to carry people, so other types will be needed.

Which brings in your idea of the virtual organisation. A software that targets resources and tasks them appropriately. Two levels I see here, one to find them in the world and trigger their release, the other, at the sharp end, to roster the aircraft and crews to their best effectiveness at the "disaster" site.

For the first, I see an organisation that essentially "owns" the machines, through smart leasing that only exceedingly smart accountants can arrange. Think the old, "safe harbour leasing" (now unlikely to succeed as it has been effectively blocked) but the principle was that the tax payers of certain countries ended up paying for your aeroplanes. There are new and innovative methods of finance that are similarly just legal which may work.

I feel that the idea of waiting for the disaster and then trying to lease machines is desperately flawed. Even if you can find the machines, some one has to pay for the leasing, at commercial rates, and the funds run out very quickly. Better to own them on zero percent leases (believe it or not they do exist for certain organisations- think Japanese construction companies...) and then you have the control. By all means lease them to third parties commercially when they are not needed, but when we need them, the small print of the lease will let them go to the desired destination within the day.

For the second level, of software to roster at the disaster site, I think that most people who have been involved in this kind of operation would agree that the human brain has yet to be bettered. The changing environment, the infinite variables of resources and the rules to use them suggest that smart operations staff are better, in this decade.

So we come back to funding. The principle will be that all or most operations are pre-funded. Sounds crazy but it may work. I do not have the financial background for this, but "disaster futures", traded against weather futures, and various derivatives of this is a start. Split coupon debentures sold at retail might give a percentage to the oraganisation and a percentage to the holder. Tax deductions for registered charity to cover the split. It's all way beyond most of us, but it works for Soros so it can work for us. Collecting coins in a tin is not part of this operation.

Keep the ideas coming, and keep thinking non standard operations, which I know is difficult as it is anathema to a pilot.

[blade771]

Moosp

I think you are right on this one, the only way to have complete control over the "fleet" would be to own them. Sure enough they probably could be utilised whilst not on task however it would probably have to be ad-hoc stuff unless you have some very crafty contractual clauses allowing you to ask for the machine back just as the client is putting his shiny new mobile phone mast on top of the hill!

The thread is something I have been thinking about for sometime but the resources required are huge, certainly there is room for an organisation like this and whatever happens it would probably be able to react more quickly than the military efforts that have been seen since the quake - I hasten to add that this is, as has been mentioned previously, probably down to politics rather than hardware.

Good thread all, keep it up - definite food for thought!

[bondu]

The concept of a quick reaction heli force is great!

But the title of this thread is "Silence on Pakistan Operations". Is it possible to start a new thread about the heli force concept and transfer the relevant posts over? This thread can then concentrate on the dismal situation in Pakistan/Kashmir.

Heliport: Can you help?

bondu :ok:

[rotorlogic]

Moosp makes some great points!

Cheap lease deals and then hiring the equipment out with a rapid-release clause would help defray the costs. Is it feasible though?

Would it be better to have some big-brother umbrella organisation like the UN or Microsoft organise that part. Would it be possible to use corporate or government money to finance the lease deal at more favourable rates or with special governmental concessions based on the intended aim of the RRRG (rapid rotorwing response group), and then acquire the equipment and hire it out in the ER-type deal. Definitely worth looking into.

I think that the software approach is being underestimated though, but its a relatively new idea and many people are not really aware of it. I understand that GM saved something like $200m in the first year of operation just from better resource distribution.

Computing bang4buck just keeps doubling every 18 months or so with no end in sight. Disposable GPS-chip pricing and the rise of RFID tags means that most aircraft and shipments are going to be tracked in giant databases real time.

You still need people to interpret the results and define the parameters for the software though so it's not like the computer can start to put the pieces of the puzzle together itself. It's just a calculator on steroids.

I have some good friends in the computer research field so maybe I am kept a little more up to date with this stuff but you don't have to read much to know that the information age is just beginning. The average mobile phone will have GPS, a camera, CPU, memory etc in a couple of years if it doesn't already. Give it another 5 years or so and it will probably check your vital signs and communicate them to your local GP and help organise your personal life by reminding you to do stuff based on your location etc. Did you know that at the time of the Boxing Day disaster the Japanese tsunami warnign system featured automated messaging to all mobile phones - even turning them on if they were off?

That's what depressed me about the tsunami! I was able to videoconference with 10 different people across the planet simultaneouslyfor free using my webcam but, unbelievably, nobody was able to warn the millions in its path. The technology is not yet being used effectively.

I think a reasonable first aim is to start simple but think big. Initially, you need a formalized organisation of reliable committed professionals and a database detailing their skill set, availability and location, which is kept up to date by the individuals themselves.

If you haven't guessed already, I'm a big fan of brain storming.

I'm also ready to help save the world - but I draw the line at lycra tights!

I think a new thread may be a good idea.

[PO dust devil]

Greetings all,


Parts, fuel and engineering support are difficult enough to get into third world and/or other places WITH visas,permits and political connections in place. Imagine how much graft would accompany "sans frontiere" style operations.

I think the demand for kick back would exceed resources. There would be no where to park a machine for all the machines that would be impounded and grounded.

Do DHL deliver up that way???

DD

[Cyclic Hotline]

I think this plan has got tracked in a terminal direction based on the concept of establishing a specialised force of helicopters for emergency use that do some commercial work to keep the doors open?

Well, count me out. I would fight you tooth and nail in the commercial marketplace and I can guarantee that I would win that battle, because we are good at what we do, and do it continuously, in a competitive marketplace and still make money. The last thing we need is competition from some group that doesn't need to show a profit driving the rates down.

The problem with creating a specialised force that responds only to emergency requirements, is they spend a huge amount of time doing nothing productive, but burn collosal amounts of money in the process. In order to respond effectively, they must be crewed and trained at the 100% level at all times, and maintain 100% availability of their fleet. Neither of these are fully achievable, nor feasible, if any reasonable type of budget is to be maintained.

The last thing that is required for a rapid, flexible, cost effective response, is some cumbersome government-like, or quasi-military organization that spends the majority of its time training for a variety of missions, that it is neither particularly current at, nor particularly good at.

The best option, is to place the demand in the commercial marketplace, and select precisley what you need. Demand the levels of safety and performance you require. Pay for what you need and only for as long as you require it. It is a far more cost effective and responsive option to be paying for what you need, rather than burning a collossal cash reserve to maintain a state of preparedness for what you might need. How much of your actual budget would go on maintaining a state of preparedness in comparison to the amount utilized to actually assist people in need? I think this alone would kill the project in the conceptual stage.

Commercial operators perform every kind of service, in every kind of operational and geographic environment, and can respond instantly so long as there is a plan, a contracting mechanism and funding. Commercial operators can provide a range of machines, support, skills, escalated crews - whatever you need - and all at realistic and viable commercial rates. Commercial operators already maintain completely qualified crews and equipped helicopters - because this is what we do for a living. How can we be so sure? Because it is the bread and butter of business, and if you can't do it, you won't be in business for very long.

As I see this problem, the difficulty arises in providing the resources to allow the resonding agencies or governments to identify the Operators that operate the equipment they require, and the ability to determine what kind of equipment will meet that requirement.

If the industry itself could get together, it can provide the resources and response to the organizations that need the equipment, and allow it to go into a rapid contracting process by having interested operators pre-register and pre-qualify to a defined, known, operating, safety and performance standard that ensures the quality of the delivered product.

No matter who the end user is, this mechanism would allow everyone to compete on a level playing field, and would ensure that the selected equipment is performing to a determined standard.

In my opinion, the simplest way to centralise the operator base would be through the various National and/or International Helicopter Operator Organizations, as this would ensure that every operator would have a means of access to the program through whichever organization they elect to affiliate themselves with - without being tied to any particular one. This would also allow the organzations to manage the marketing and informational side to the end users, through the existing resources of those same organizations and maybe a specific website. They already have the contacts and connections with regulators, governments and agencies that would be organizing the response.

The group could be managed by the member organisations and an elected board from member operators. All expenses incurred by operator members would be the responsibilty of the operator. A modest annual registration fee could be levied for all interested operators who wish to register as a Contractor, ensuring that all routine operating expenses are adequately funded. There is also the possibility that modest grants might be obtained to assist solely in the administration of the programme. Public AGM's could be held in conjunction with exisiting helicopter industry meetings, thus minimizing any additional management time or expense. The only thing the Operators have to do, is volunteer the time and resources of their employees to provide the manpower and horsepower to run the entire thing - and strangely enough, this is the exact type of system that all these Helicopter Organisations run on right now. Tight budgets and volunteers are the really productive way to manage a realistic response from the interested parties and players in the field.

The problem is not a shortage of helicopters or people to operate them. The problem is the inability of the helicopter industry to determine the end users, and educate them on the selection of the equipment they require and provide a mechanism for them to contract safe, effective, responsive resources whenever they need them, wherever they need them.

At least, thats how I see it! :confused:

[rotorlogic]

If the primary evaluating crieterion is, as it should be, how quickly, effectively and continuously relief gets to victims, then the existing system/organisations don't seem to pass muster.

I really don't have any idea how a major operation like this comes together so it's probably unfair to criticize except for the fact that, JUST MAYBE, the half million or so poor souls slowly freezing/starving to death as winter descends like a silent white shroud in those valleys might ask that some people bloody well do.

I'm sure that those miserable wretches, who must know better than anyone what's ahead of them, couldn't care less if it's the UN or a commercial consortium that saves them or gives them shelter.

I stumbled onto this forum simply trying to find a way to help and carrying a concern that has grown steadily from the tsunami through New Orleans and into this latest cataclysm, and found some like-minded people trying to come up with a solution and I think it's great. Maybe naive and idealistic but maybe what we need is a rethink.

Let the commercial operators get on with it if they can come to some sort of arrangement. My experience with contactors is that they are too independent and/or suspicious to cooperate effectively. All you need is one opportunist to break ranks and most of the organizational momentum evaporates.

And really, are we supposed to have faith in a system that's so disorganised that it couldn't even deliver food and water to New Orleans?

Personally, I'm for whoever can get the job done and I'm prepared to help out NOW and do my share NOW.

[blade771]

Having now had a few hours to deliberate some more:

Cyclic Hotline, some very valid points however I am still confident that if they were of the correct type the aircraft and crews would get utilised and as said before they would have to be allowed to depart the role if an emergency situation were to arise. I do see your point that the flying roles and training required for relief work would have to be trained on a continuous basis however with the remuneration that the aircraft make whilst operational outside of their primary role (disaster relief) this should allow recurrent training for all crew members.

You have added something quite interesting which would be to have the 'fleet' distributed i.e. UK, US, Middle East etc (wherever really) which would perhaps allow a diversity and cut down immediate evaluation and response times. If there are aircraft already operational / based near the region - allowing experienced crews to arrive at the scene along with op's teams to gauge what the response should be i.e. the number of cabs and ancillary personnel required and what role they should be in. At the same time the other aircraft away from the immediate relief area are placed on standby (called back from their secondary roles etc.)

The commercial market place could take advantage of the aircraft whilst not on task people are always looking for second / third machines etc in all aspects of aviation - whether that be maintenance cover or extra requirement - so to have the availability of machines which as you quite rightly say would otherwise be sat doing nothing might be quite advantageous. In essence this operation would be placed in the commercial market place anyway and not a 'quasi-military' type organisation as you put it. I whole heartedly agree with your statement that the commercial operators are able to provide experienced crews and the right type of helicopter but rarely at the drop of a hat - especially when considering the type of aircraft required to carry out this type of operation.

As all who have read this thread know, this is a huge undertaking for anyone but it would seem there are quite a few of you willing to have a look at it - count me in, it would be an interesting exercise... and you never know!!

p.s. new thread great idea!

[Cargo Cult]

From C4 News tonight - estimate of 200,000 people not yet reached by ANY aid. Pakistan govt. currently state that 160,000 need airlift out of disaster zones which are too badly affected to be supported. Current deaths stand at 72,000 - and look bound to rise substantially.
There have been numerous intelligent suggestions on this thread so far - I hope someone has the psychological resources to take them further. Cyclic Hotline's assessment looks spot-on to me.

[moosp]

Good points continue to be added to this thread.

Cylic H, a competitive response from the commercial side of heliops is understandable. You do good work.

In the Tsunami, the first ones there were operating in about as short a time as could be expected of a specialised response unit. The variety of operators caused some inefficiency, in that some were allowed to cross hire to NGOs other than the one which had hired them, some were not. That left machines on the ground when the hirer had no work that day. A response unit would put itself under the control of the affected country's disaster relief organisation. Probably. That may depend on the country, and what is left of it.

The difficulty I see with the commercial operators is funding. I heard on the radio today that the helicopter operation in Pakistan has two more days funds, then it will cease. I doubt it will, as someone will find some funds from somewhere, but the fundamental problem remains that unless you are pre-funded, the NGOs will not be able to hire you when their contributors get donor fatigue.

On reflection I take back my comments that this unit can go commercial when not required for relief work. They won't be kicking their heels and the crews losing currency. With the size of the organisation for the forseeable future, they will be employed full time supporting disaster relief. Darfur still needs help. Aceh still needs help. Congo could use help. And of course, now Pakistan. We can all predict a "next" disaster area, and we know it won't be long. Wherever MSF are working, (over 80 countries now) there may be a need to move supplies and people if the terrain and time warrant.

You are right that NGOs have a bad reputation for burning charity funds, the infamous white Landcruiser being the common visible example. Even with a lean mean organisation this helicopter response unit will be expensive. There comes a point where a society decides that the cost of saving a human life is too expensive, and figures from US$300,000 to M1.5 per life have been derived by insurers in various countries. If the unit costs more than that to operate per life saved, then it may well be that the funds are better spent on Malaria research and bednets.

Tony C has a forum up and running on a Helicopter Response Unit. He will no doubt introduce it when he is content with its performance.

[Cargo Cult]

http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers16%5Cpaper1594.html

This paper has some interesting content related to the current Pakistan operations. The site itself often contains papers valuable for anyone interested in the region, although its aggressively pro-Indian bias indicates that the site is not unconnected with the Indian intelligence "community". Well worth a look though.

[rotorlogic]

The saag papers are a very interesting read and informative, as are the suggestions that terrorist training camps were heavily hit and the notion that the US has operatives gathering intelligence.

Probably a fair bit of paranoia all round, I would have thought! India against Pakistan, the west and the different factions of the mujahideen. The Pakistan government would be sensitive about the continued existence of these camps and/or to any preemptive interpretation of the facts to indicate their operation.

Well worth the time!

[Air-Dynamic]

Cargo Cult, et al,
There seems to be some misunderstanding on how the UN and NGO community react to disasters and what the processes are in contracting aircraft in any given relief effort.
The principal users of air support are UNDPKO and UNWFP, DPKO for peacekeeping and WFP in disaster relief, although the NGO community is becoming a bit more savvy now in soliciting donor funds, the main contractors remain the UN agencies. Having said that, any operator wishing to supply aircraft whenever an emergency breaks out needs to be a registered vendor of the United Nations. For all you that are interested in receiving offers to participate in RFO's go to www.ungm.org and start the registration process [it will take anywhere from 3-12 months]. Secondly, your company will need to undergo an audit that includes financial scrutiny and operational minimum pre-requisites. Given that UN guidelines for the carriage of UN personnel are equivalent to any 1st world regulations governing charter operations at night or in IMC, nearly all aircraft contracted are twin engine IFR capable ships, and most notably, because of the price these are Russian machines.
Because of the acute shortage in the marketplace of MI17,s, the aircraft of choice in the third world, prices have reached unprecedented levels and are not about to come back down anytime soon, however these remain, even at these levels relatively competitive given their payloads. To stop second guessing on what is actually operating in Pakistan its probably more useful to check out www.unjlc.org that provides an overview of operations in some of the regions WFP and both UNJLC have a presence. Its mandate is inter-agency coordination and this includes the prioritisation of helo ops. The tragedy of this particular mission, is, as stated, donor fatigue but don't beleive what you hear on the radio, we are funded thro' till the end of November and also have support from the likes of different governments that provide donations of helicopters "in kind". In other words, instead of giving WFP money, they contract aircraft, deploy them, manage them but have WFPHAS do the actual tasking. Moreover,in situations such as this all aicraft, whether they be contracted by IFRC/OXFAM SDC etc all come under the umbrella of the WFP Humanitarian Air Service[HAS] so as to utilise and make the most of available capacity to the common user group.
This does not always work out the way it should as there are on occasion conflicts of interest and in the end every agency is vying for more control over the relief effort through contracting their own assetts. Its a cut throat industry within itself. Brokers are typically responsible for the price wars but have backed off in recent times so the market is steadying, i would like to suggest though that an organisation such as you have mentioned HSF really is a bit of a pipe dream unless you have a conglomerate of operators in a JV or partnership that have very deep pockets to cover the first months of operation untill you get your invoices in and paid.Mobilisation is typically paid up front and then invoices submitted at the completion of the first months operation – ie at the end of every calendar month, therefore days in country are pro-rated on the minimum guaranteed hrs for the first months work. Your best bet as adhoc clients to disaster relief ops is to send in a list of available assets with a brief proposal ie costing on an ACMI basis, inclusive of all incidentals separately ie what you will budget for food/accommodation/transport/communications/management etc and send it on to us here at UNJLC as other operators do and we then fwd the offers to agencies in need of helicopters. Ie just go into www.unjlc.org and send to relevant section, if you have a spare 747 or IL76 then pass this info to strategic airlift, otherwise send the helo info to the generic address of [email protected]. This may change in the near future and if it does I will update you.
I hope this is of some use to you and although contracting of singles is rare, we are about to position an additional 4 lamas into Muzzaffarabad to get to the really difficult villages further up the hills in Kashmir purely for long lining work so there is scope for B3’s and L3’s 407 etc for reccon and similar, particularly for NGO’s who do not employ the same criteria for contracting as say DPKO/ICRC and WFP.
Cheers,
Nick

[Swinging Spanner]

Hi all,

Just to add my 2 cents worth, I am part of a 3 man team with a B212 supporting the United Arab Emirates Armed Forces.

We are a civilian outfit providing air support for a military hospital in Balakot. We set off only 3 days after the earthquake, and I myself finished a 6 month contract only to turn around and launch in 36 hrs to Pakistan.

Most of the air support is provided by military forces from various countries, and only a few like ourselves that are not.

The people I work with have been exposed to working in countries like Yemen, Iran and Pakistan. So while most people's comments are correct in stating the problems working here, it is essentially apart of an equation. One has to solve these problems to achieve objectives...I mean c'mon we work on heli's right?!?

If one keeps a level head and temper then, like me, you will have a great time knowing you are helping people, and seeing the unspoilt mountains of Kashmir while doing it.

Lets not fool ourselves here, we are all just a link in the chain, but slowly and surely we are making a difference. Rather than making comments about inefficiencies, get in there and make a ripple.

If anyone is interested, I have some great photo's of our op's here. If someone is able to help me get them posted I would only be too happy to share.

Cheers for now

SS
;)

[Tony Chambers]

By working together and by putting the right ideas and plans in to action somethings can be achieved. Some balls are in motion and some response companies are very keen to contract helicopters and thier support to aid the relief, rescue and support efforts in places like pakistan and anywhere else in the world.
I believe it is through the response companies and charities as a contract that helicopters can be best used, after all most of these units already have good politcal staus in these countries, lets not try to set up an all new charitable organisation but provide a service to those already existing.
I have been looking in to this service for sometime before the thread emerged and i have recieved great interest.
For those of you who are happy to contribute to a posotive service please pm me and i will give you the link to my forum dedicated purely to this topic.

[Swinging Spanner]

Hi all,

found another 2 cents on the ground,

As far as NGO's and other organisations go, helping in relief efforts where ever it may be, I believe the essential form of a body helping in crisis is "liquid".

Whilst it is a noble idea to have a structured form when providing effort during emergencies to maintain efficiency, I think that you need satellite efforts that make up the collective parts of an international effort.

I think it's a fundamental flaw in thinking that you can collectively organise people from different parts of the world, with varying approaches to problems, access to resources and lets face it...agenda's and run it in a smooth and efficient manner in line with the mechanics of global corporations.

I have seen on the ground how small teams and organisations can work in a particular part of an effected area and make a difference together. And if all aid bodies are working in this way, you are in effect working in a greater organised effort. How can one apply effiency to relief efforts in the middle of emergencies?

If in doubt just look at collective bodies and their associated problems with making decisions and having clear-efficient directions i.e UN and the EU. And are these bodies held accountable in the same way?!?

Dont get me wrong, when it comes to re-building and re-habilitation, then you can plan and structure. But the essence of helping in an emergency is to respond and react.

...just a thought

SS

[borquez71]

:O im new in the forum, im from mexico i was in the mexican air force, i flew bell 206 bell 212 uh-1h md-530f mi-8t and mi-17, in 14 years

regards

[mini]

Guys, there are a lot of comparisons being drawn between Aceh & Pakistan, noting similarities etc. this are very misleading. Aceh was unique in terms of disaster response, and not just in terms of finance.

The single greatest constraint normally faced (in a country with a government that is…) is officialdom and the corresponding ego massaging, bribing, cajoling etc. Someone who has never dealt with this will perhaps find it hard to understand why people can impede assistance to their fellow countrymen for their own petty reasons but this is a fact of life. Any of you guys working in certain areas of the “Dark Continent” should have a fair idea what I mean.

In Aceh there was no officialdom – they got washed away. It was a free for all.

In terms of air ops it took several weeks for the Indonesian military to get a handle on the situation, even then it was pretty limited. They brought in approved LZ’s and limited pre-approved flights for all helos, the latter was ignored once it became obvious that they weren’t monitoring – in fact for the first few weeks no one was – there were estimates of over 400 movements a day from BA. (this figure was later exceeded – officially this time) The ramp at Banda was complete chaos – look for a clear spot on the ground/patch in the sky & go for it…

Then you’ve got the cowboys, how about one crew doing an offshore trip (no floats etc) to an island, complete with ferry tanks which were refuelled by hand pump from 205 litre drums mid flight by inexperienced tree huggers… who “had” to get there…

The only efficient way to mount an air ops response is to centralise tasking of all assets and prioritise what machine goes where, with what and when. This tasking should be agreed by the aid actors involved. This is what the UN in various guises (UNOCHA/UNJLC) attempts to do. With the plethora of aid agencies and their differing priorities, donor pressure to make an impact etc this becomes almost impossible, and this doesn’t take into account the VIP/press trips that soak up your capacity. Don’t for a minute underestimate the inter-organisation rivalry that happens in these circumstances either – I may have a helo idle but I’m buggered if I’m giving it to you… even on a cost sharing basis.

Meanwhile the suffering continues…

:sad:

[Cargo Cult]

From today's news.

An outstandingly good, indeed heartbreaking, CNN report showed British Chinooks at villages where up to now there has still been NO aid of any kind yet...

Many people - mostly children - are now suffering amputations and worse as a consequence of untreated (relatively) minor injuries.

A total of 3 million people are displaced.

A report in The Guardian indicates that a total of only 78 helicopters are currently operating in the region.

[African Tech Rep]

I was asked to help get a helo to Sri Lanka for the tsunami – the two things that struck me was how disjointed everything was – and how political everything was.

I truly expected expect a couple of pone calls would do – it was all over the news after all – my first Day of calls proved me wrong but I got some real interesting quotes.
Eventually a kind carrier was found and the helo was on it’s way – I’m told when it got there it could hardly do anything due to “lack of permits”.

That’s as close as I’ve got to helo ops – although have been involved in some fixed wing interesting ones – so will say there is Major room for improvement but don’t know enough to suggest how to implement the improvements.

Swinging Spanner – you don’t seem to have a PM link on your page – PM me about posting pics please.

[Sensible Garage]

Swinging Spanner, please do share your pics, please contact via PM

tc Sensible Garage

[Andy Healey]

Belgium's Skytech has an Mi-8 and Mi-17 out there right now, working for the ICRC (Red Cross). Planning to send more by Christmas.

[sarbee]

Well guys, I'm up for it... let me know where to be and when, I'll ferry it, hitch it, do whatever it takes to get it there and then let's show just what we really can do.

I agree, the funding will be an issue that needs someone 'larger than life' at the head but we could do SO much great work.

[Aser]

Ab-139 ! :ooh:
http://military.revenanteagle.org/albums/November-16th-2005/051023_F_9085B_187.sized.jpg

[noooby]

Yes Aser, there are four of them there. All owned by Aga Khan foundation. Two are permanently based in Islamabad, the other two came down from Dushanbe, in Tajikistan, to lend a hand.

[helmet fire]

Funding: the bane.

How about an organisational head that can afford the initial hit as a bridging fund? Someone like Bill gates, etc etc etc, or a large company such as GE, though there is an issue with percieved American organisations in many parts of the world.

They can fund the gap and get the op up and running until other funding kicks in. They can justify the expenditure on the huge comapny logo painted on the side of the aircraft and the exposure, and it would get the job cracking along without the crippling effect of bureaucratic funding timelines.