Ryanair Unsafe ?? I don't think so

[sean1982]

Ireland-based Ryanair will implement the Maintenance Performance Toolbox from Boeing, an innovative set of performance-enhancing solutions for aircraft maintenance and troubleshooting. Accessible via an Internet browser as a secured, hosted service, the Maintenance Toolbox is a key component within Boeing's evolving portfolio of solutions for aircraft maintenance.

The Maintenance Toolbox comprises five different tools that will help Ryanair manage a wide variety of activities, including technical publications, structural repairs, maintenance and engineering.

Technical publications departments use the Maintenance Toolbox to create customized airline documents, modify original equipment manufacturer manuals, and create task cards. Built-in workflow tracking ensures that the document audit trail is complete and approved before release to users. The Maintenance Toolbox gives mechanics on the flight line, in the hangar, and at the maintenance operations center fast and efficient access to the information they need.

The new 3D Structural Repair Database tool helps engineers comply with upcoming requirements. Engineers can save successful solutions for reuse on recurrent tasks.

"We are pleased to be a developmental partner with Boeing on the Maintenance Toolbox," said Mick Hickey, Director of Engineering and Maintenance for Ryanair. "In order to remain the number one carrier of passengers in Europe, we strive to stay ahead of our competition by maintaining a modern fleet of 737-800s and supporting that fleet safely and reliably by utilizing leading-edge technology solutions such as the Maintenance Toolbox. The implementation of the Maintenance Toolbox will allow us to keep our operational costs low -- savings which we pass along to our passengers."

Boeing will provide secure hosting for all of Ryanair's data and reliable access to the user interface through MyBoeingFleet.com. Engineers need only a computer -- a laptop, desktop or pen tablet -- and an Internet connection to access the system.

"The Maintenance Toolbox is a shining example of how Boeing and Ryanair are continuing to work together to define the right products at the right time for Ryanair's operations," said Todd Nelp, vice president, Customer Support-Europe, Boeing Commercial Aviation Services. "As the first carrier in Europe to order the Maintenance Toolbox, Ryanair is again demonstrating its commitment to innovation and cost-efficient maintenance solutions."

The Maintenance Toolbox is a key element of Boeing's effort to e-Enable the air transport system. Boeing intends to offer content, applications, and services that connect all the data generated by an entire flight operation – in the air, on the ground and in the hangar -- meaningful to all users: pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, operations departments, airport users and other potential customers.

Boeing press release, SEATTLE, Oct. 19, 2005



In your face bashers !

And before everybody starts saying: "What do you know about safety in FR and blah blah"

I do work for them, not as a pilot but as cabin crew for almost 2 years now and I am Purser or no1 as we call it in FR. If been following various threads lately about FR and I just want to make 1 comment about THE point where everybody\'s talking about.

I have NEVER felt any pressure to go to work SICK or not able to fly. When I\'m sick I call sick. And all this crap about the management pressure is a serious overreaction. There is some pressure but absolutely not to the extent that I would go to work sick or any other of my colleages I might add. So people from outside the company, Cut the crap and take you\'re allegations somewhere else.

[Charlie Pop]

Wow, you've got a computer to tell you when you need maintenance done and that makes you safe. By that logic all we need to do is get every airline to buy the system and there'll never be another crash again.

The initial posting must win the award for most simplistic and naive posting today.

Now can you sell me a scratchcard please?

[sean1982]

Ok, I'm really starting to think that some people are not able to have a normal conversation

This system brings by to a better safety culture, by a better managing and planning of airplane maintenance and engineering. Did I say anything about avoiding crashes with this?

I justed wanted to prove with this that FR is not taking safety lightly or trying to save money on it. FR is actively trying to streamline it's procedures for a better safety culture.

As for the scratchcards, I'm just doing my job you know. very funny though HA HA HA

[Flame]

Hey Guys (and Gals)

Will y'all lighten up a bit, I cannot understand why it is, that at the mention of ryanair...almost every single thread degenerates into a pit of malicious slagging / hate / threats / and more that i cannot spell..!!!!

So much for Proffesionals..!!!!!!!!!

[kms901]

Sean 1982, don't take it personally. All PR has an element of untruth. This "new system" may help, but nothing replaces individual responsibility. And as someone who has flown as a passenger for thirty years, I just don't think Captains are the absolutely authority figures they once were. But I also think policemen are getting younger.

But I worry when the captain's pre-flight announcement includes
" The computer says our flight time is 1hr 52 mins"

[sean1982]

Not personal taken

I absolutely do not think that it takes responsibility away from individual persons, I'm just saying it helps to streamline to process which in turn translates to a better safety culture.

Working everyday on a plane I DO still have the authorithy feeling with a captain. I'm the cabin supervisor but at the end of the day, if something happens the captain is the one who makes the decision. And I've flown with older and younger captains and to me it does not make any diffenerce. I've never come on board an FR plane and felt unsafe. I have big confidence in the way safety is handled in FR.

Proof is the fact that a lot of airlines is willing to take FR cabin crew in because of their thorough knowledge of safety.

FS CHICK, so if what you say is true I should have been sacked 6 times already ?? strange

[His dudeness]

Sean,
IF this new system enhances safety, fine.
But mainly it will enhance their profits. Also fine wth me.
But, and thats what I think is wrong in FR´s (and many other airlines) thinking, is to put these systems into operation ONLY if they can safe money.

I personally don´t think FR is safer or less safe than most other airlines - but the rapid growth FR has inherets risks - this is not rocket science but common sense me thinks.

[Faire d'income]

"In your face bashers !

And before everybody starts saying: "What do you know about safety in FR and blah blah"

I do work for them, not as a pilot but as cabin crew for almost 2 years now and I am Purser or no1 as we call it in FR. If been following various threads lately about FR and I just want to make 1 comment about THE point where everybody\'s talking about.

I have NEVER felt any pressure to go to work SICK or not able to fly. When I\'m sick I call sick. And all this crap about the management pressure is a serious overreaction. There is some pressure but absolutely not to the extent that I would go to work sick or any other of my colleages I might add. So people from outside the company, Cut the crap and take you\'re allegations somewhere else."

Sean the Labour Court will decide about management pressure and intimidation so pardon me if I don't take your word for it. Bravo if you don't work while sick. In any other company it's not even an issue.

BTW I work with some of your former cabin colleagues and they can tell a tale or two.

[Sunfish]

I applaud Boeing's idea of providing a suite of software tools to streamline maintenance.

Lets hope the interfaces are standardised so that when Airbus does something similar airlines with mixed fleets don't have to run two systems.

Lets also hope that the announcement is not just smoke and mirrors and that there is some real production software already available to do the job, not just the "demonstration" system. I hope Ryanair is not pioneering this system for its staff's sake.

Lets also hope that the installation and especially the migration of Ryanair's data goes smoothly.

Lets also hope its running on Unix or preferably Linux, not Microsoft product.

Now for the cynical bit. I'll bet the great leader sees this as an opportunity to decimate his maintenance planning function, or an excuse not to increase capacity in that area. I also wonder if Ryanair is going to buy laptops for its engineers, or make them buy their own and charge them at home every night so as not to use the company's electricity.

Just remember that to err is human, but to really stuff things up you need a computer.

[jollyikarus]

Sean,
Come on now....
Software (or computer programs) are nothing but a tool! It is how you use the tool is what makes the difference. The best tools in (at) the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it - or is prevented from using it to its full extent - is pretty useless!
Give a Stradivari to a moron....and all you'll hear is....urghhh!
By which I am not saying that all at FR are morons!!!!

Glad te read that you are proud of working for your employer and that you DO indentify yourself with the job you do. And that wasn't meant to be cynical!

Cheers!

Cheers! ;-)

[BEagle]

sean, the Press Release you posted came from the manufacturer. Politely it is typical PR flannel.

But if it helps with maintenance, then fine. But history has shown that computers suffer from 'garbage in, garbage out'. So it's vital that whoever uses this system is thoroughly trained to do so.

As an example of how a good idea can go sadly wrong, these are some interim comments following the fatal Boeing 747 accident at Halifax:

But further investigation has turned up problems beyond the throttle setting; specifically, the crew's training on new cockpit software, said Bill Fowler, the board's lead investigator.

The software known as the Boeing Laptop Tool, or BLT, calculates the proper speed and thrust of the plane based on information the crew inputs on weight, runway length and weather conditions.

Mr. Fowler said the software was set for the plane's weight at its previous takeoff in Hartford, Conn., almost 110,000 kilograms lighter than the Halifax load.

After interviewing airline staff, the board concluded the software training process was incomplete.

"The company undertook to implement this [software] package following guidance material," Mr. Fowler said. "The question arose: Did they do it adequately? In our view, not all of it."
Mr. Fowler said the software could allow crew who were unfamiliar with the program to use the previous takeoff's weight data.

Incidentally, the worst airline landings I've ever experienced were with a premium carrier, not a lo-co. For example, slammed into the runway at Frankfurt (the real one :p) in an A321 with 5 kts down the RW, excellent visibility, no turbulence and ISA+5......

[sean1982]

I'm not based in STN, but I've been flying from there and I personally didn't have any problems.

Most of the management pressure comes sales and believe it or not safety on board. In recent weeks tons of memo's have come out to remind cabin crew about the importance of pre-flight checks, security measures and reporting incidents. We hav 3 different reporting systems in FR for reporting incidents. About the sales pressure, I think it's normal if you are in a selling enviroment the selling as much as possible is important? I have friends working for different clothing shops and they have also quota's and pressure for selling from the management.

About the Skavsta thing. This was 1 pilot. Why now assuming everybody who flies in FR is crap. So in your opinion, If one of my colleagues is pissed of with company and blows a slide on purpose, the next day everybody's going to blow their slides on purpose? Come on grow up. And if I would be in a situation where reporting somebody is required because he showed a serious lack of judgement or ignored almost every SOP in the company I would without any doubt report him and that is the way how it is encouraged by the company as well!

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Well my tuupence worth is, sean1982 shouldn't be so naive as to go re-posting another bit of FR "news" from their website and not expect a bit of a light grilling here in pprune land.

Yes it is good to see FR is bang up to date on the latest Boeing procedures but I'm sure they are not alone. I don't think FR would ever cut costs in this area. Too much to lose. I think the only saving they make in maintenance is having the newest shiniest fleet I've ever seen. God knows how they afford it but they do. Their safety record is not in question. In aviation statistics mean a great deal and their statistics on safety beat the socks off most.

If some chump makes what should have been a career changing approach in Sweden, how can this possibly lead to any logical conclusion that FR is unsafe? It cannot.

I am not an FR basher when it comes to their safety record or their seat prices. Consequently I fly with them whenever I can as they save me lots of money. But, and this is the big but, I detest the spin/bull****/outright lies that certain FR types (not you sean1982) like to put out on pprune (No1 culprit - oh LHC I think). That stuff deservedly get bashed, roasted and pummelled every time it appears.

[PAXboy]

bacardi walla Companies can spend millions on technology and tools. It's the person using it who is ultimately responsible because if they are not trained sufficiently, the tool won't perform and he/she will be blamed for not using it correctly. Indeed. Having been involved in introducing new electronic and computer systems for 25 years, I can say that most companies by new systems to save money. My view is that you should buy a system because it improves an existing process. With personal responsibility - you'd better believe it. We have just seen in the UK that, following the Hatfield rail smash, no company and no person is being prosecuted. Corporate fines but no person was guilty. That is how it works.

As to the comments hoping that FR are not launch customers for this software, they appear to be just that. If you read the Press Release that started this thread:"We are pleased to be a developmental partner with Boeing on the Maintenance Toolbox," said Mick Hickey, Director of Engineering and Maintenance for Ryanair. Being a development partner usually means getting the software for a serious discount. Of course, I sit to be corrected on this.

It's the same when airlines are launch customers for a new a/c. You gain some advantages by being ahead of the competition but it costs you a LOT of mgmt and staff time (and expenses) to gain that edge. Not for nothing is it called, The Bleeding Edge of Technology .

In case Sean is concerned, the above is not attacking FR, I believe that I am just clarifying existing statements.

[Grunf]

Hello everybody. How about we wait for Airbus to implement something similar and then start commenting?

Aside for FR they're next to Southwest one of the biggest (if not the second biggest) 737 customer by the number…so Boeing chose them based on that info I guess…and a discount of course, for the raw data and consequent new releases for the software…

Let's just hope this tool will help them and not replace engineers…I guess no software is meant to replace human brains…

I also bet that FRs media/marketing people are quite satisfied for us doing their job…

From that point of view…how many people on this thread might be from FR marketing or an agency working for them?

Who saw "Stalag 17" or "Wag the dog" would understand what I mean…

Cheers

[PAXboy]

Let's just hope this tool will help them and not replace engineers… Software is always meant to help even if it does not always do so. My guess is that this sounds like an administration tool, more than an engineering one. It might be about ensuring that equipment does not get serviced earlier than is required and so get better value, as well as tracking of work.

I guess no software is meant to replace human brains… You gotta be joking, right? One of the key selling points of software is that it replaces brains. Brains are expensive and muscles are expensive, so if you can replaces muscles with robots and brains with software, you can manage and control the expense better and that means you can make more profit.

[beernice]

Never had a problem with the engineering side of things at FR. The engineering department seems to be the only department that gets what it wants. I think the company knows that if we do have an accident and it can be put down to poor maintaince it might well be curtains. I might be critical of FR on many fronts but not maintaince.
As for CRM we have many young casin crew from all over Europe. Its got its advantages and disadvantages. I do know that the IAA will be introducing a day long Crm course with pilots and crew in together for the first time. There are many things to bash ryanair on but not this, bringing in this new system must be good.

[EI-CFC]

The engineering department seems to be the only department that gets what it wants. I think the company knows that if we do have an accident and it can be put down to poor maintaince it might well be curtains.

Indeed, whatever might be said about FR, much of it absolute cobblers, some of it true, the maintenence side of the operation has always struck me as pretty top-class.

MOL may be many things, but he is no fool. I don't think they would even skimp on maintenence.

[Aloue]

First a quote from the post by Sean that started this thread:I have NEVER felt any pressure to go to work SICK or not able to fly. When I\'m sick I call sick. And all this crap about the management pressure is a serious overreaction. There is some pressure …. O.K. Sean, here’s the problem: You state your experience as if it were sufficient to refute those who claim the contrary. However, your personal experience does not mean that those who make different claims are wrong. It means only that you are correct about your experience and, probably, about the situation in your base. (In fact it is clear that in some bases things run along in a pretty harmonious way, depending upon local management, the roster/schedule, etc, etc.).

But …. may I also remind you of the following Ryanair memo:
Over the past year over 10,000 days have been lost through absenteeism in RYANAIR, which equates to 7 un-crewed aircraft every day, all year around!!!

Your attendance record shows that you have been absent from work on X occasions during the last 12 months.

This high frequency of absence cannot be sustained, as other people within your area have to pick up additional work in your absence.

All absences in the future will be closely monitored and, I need to see a dramatic and sustained improvement in your attendance in the months ahead.

Please confirm receipt of this letter and measures you will take to eliminate further absence from work. If you have any queries on the above please do not hesitate to contact me. (Signed by David O'Brien).

I don’t know how you interpret this memo Sean, but there are flight crew in Ryanair who interpret this as a clear warning that they should be very careful about their level of sickness. In fact there are those who have been invited by Ryanair management to outline “the measures [they] will take to eliminate further absence” and who have left the interview believing that it would be wiser to go to work than to go sick. (BTW, a typical number of days sick to receive this memo is three days or more).

I accept your entitlement to express your opinion and I accept fully that what you say applies to yourself. However, I have absolutely no doubt that cabin crew work in Ryanair when they should not do so. I know this because I have met such cabin crew. What they fear more that working when sick are the consequences of being labelled as “trouble-makers” (and because of their belief that this would threaten their continued employment).

And no, they do not make reports about this (which they should). Which brings us back to where this all started.

[Sunfish]

Unless your sick days are portable between employers (which I doubt), then this is a simple cost issue, and naturally Ryanair wants to minimise this expense.

[EI-CFC]

I don’t know how you interpret this memo Sean, but there are flight crew in Ryanair who interpret this as a clear warning that they should be very careful about their level of sickness.

Not to rain on your parade, but I've seen stuff like this in non aviation industries...

[Aloue]

EI-CFC, that indeed is the case. But you are not "raining on my parade" at all. The difference is that in aviation people have responsibilities - in law, at a minimum - to behave in a certain way. There is a difference when people turn out to be unwilling/unable to deliver on those safety responsibilites due to the employment climate.

Do we really have to redo these subjects every few months? Is the point not that Ryanair stands accused of creating and perpetuating an environment in which:

(a) the individual carries the responsibility for behaving in a particular way,

(b) the operator sustains an environment in which the required behaviour is clearly not encouraged (putting it as softly as one can),

(c) by doing so a mismatch between "power to deliver" and "responsibility to delivery" is created,

(d) all of this takes place in an environment where, apparently, the ability to make a bone fide safety report to either the operator or licensing authority has, in the eyes of many/most flight crew, been undermined.

The fact that we can all identify practices and produce documents from other areas that are "worse" (some in the building industry come to mind) is not really the point. We know in the aviation industry what the obligations and responsibilities are - and we should be concerned and interested in what underlies a repeated failure to discharge those responsibilities. My reply to you is the same as it is to Sean, which is that your comment, however true, does not address this subject.

I say that the practices complained of by Sean are widespread, while he claims that it just never happens. Somebody is wrong here.

[bacardi walla]

Interesting to see that my posts have been deleted. What happened to free speech ?

[Faire d'income]

Interesting to see that my posts have been deleted. What happened to free speech ?

It has been re-branded as low cost speech.

[Danny]

Nice one Faire d'income. Bacardi Walla, it may appear to be free to you but unless you are able to grasp the concept that whilst you may sit in front of your screen smug in the knowledge that you are an anonymous poster on here, I on the other hand have to deal with the threats of legal action from Ryanairs lawyers because some posters spout off on issues such as safety without one iota of knowledge of what is permissible and what isn't. To put it simply, if I were to identify you and publish on here that i thought you were of unsound mind and were likely to go around attempting to kill people then you wouldn't be too happy. Well, you wouldn't if I didn't have any substantial evidence to back up my claims.

So, unless your comments are to do with the thread topic and I consider them to be within the rules of what is allowed to be stated then they simply will be deleted. Of course, you are free to email me your personal details and address and should Ryanairs lawyers come after me again because I allowed something you wrote to remain on here but they thought constituted a libel or unfounded allegation, I would be more than happy to forward your details to them so as to allow me more time to have a life instead of trawling through every Ryanair thread and removing some of the unsubstantiated crap that appears on here. After all, Ryanair are a well known airline and as far as I'm aware all their pilots are just as professional as you or I. Just because of one incident you don't label the whole workforce as cowboys. The same applies to their maintenance standards.

On the other hand, you can of course discuss the issues as raised in Aloue's post. I see that today in the letters section of this weeks Flight International there are two letters about stress and company culture. I would suggest you read those and observe how to debate the sensitive subject without necessarily making unsubstantiated allegations.

[bacardi walla]

danny thanks for the post. Please don't you start to threaten me, this is an open forum, managed by your goodself, and my opinions should be most welcome on here. I am fully aware of how FR operate, and treat their crews, and they're motives. I've experienced it first hand some time back.

My comments were completely in line with the topic raised by our friend Aloue

How you at Pprune can be threatened by FR's legal team is beyond me especially as 95% of people on here post fact, and not fiction. BUT, I know that at the first chance of legal action being taken, FR will go for it.

After all, Ryanair are a well known airline and as far as I'm aware all their pilots are just as professional as you or I. Just because of one incident you don't label the whole workforce as cowboys. The same applies to their maintenance standards.

One incident ? I'd say more than one and most people on here would agree with me, including the Irish Courts.

I've never labelled the whole workforce as cowboys.
Their maintenance standards are under scrutiny.


unsubstantiated crap say's who ?

Keep up the good work you and the other moderators do, but please, don't be threatened by the bullies at FR. I've seen crew members in tears as a result of FR's intimidation tactics so I know how their minds work at times.

I see that today in the letters section of this weeks Flight International there are two letters about stress and company culture. I would suggest you read those and observe how to debate the sensitive subject without necessarily making unsubstantiated allegations.

I don't need to read those. As I said before, I've experienced their culture and it ain't pleasant.

Thanks Danny, I won't waste my time answering any FR threads and voicing my opinion.

[arewenearlythereyet?]

What I cannot understand is that MOL keeps on popping up and harping on about how much bigger and better than BA and all the other major airlines Ryanair is but then feels the need to go after anyone expressing criticism about anything that they think might affect safety, such as the stress that management put on their workforce with examples such as the memo reproduced about sickness. I do not see BA or any of the other major airlines going after Pprune when there is anything to discuss about safety issues so why does MOL feel the need to shut off discussion if he is as big as he claims to be? The only reason I can think of is that perhaps he really does have something to hide. With the kind of cost cutting that MOL brags about we can only assume that there is absolutely no fat left to cater for the unforeseen human aspects such as sickness, fatigue or just plain old fear of poor man management.

While I agree that should someone suffer from a prolonged bout of sickness at regular intervals, they should indeed review whether they are suitable for the job, to send out threats after only three days of sick leave smacks to me of management pressure and is very likely to cause some pilots to perhaps not consider taking a sick day when in reality they should be away from work. It may not matter as much in some jobs but those of us who enjoy working in a very small, fast moving office with fantastic views and the responsibility for transporting many fragile lives, it can be a different matter.

It may or may not be considered properly by MOL and his management team but it seems that the IAA may have done us all a favour by highlighting the approach/landing incident at Skavsta where the captain claims that stress was a factor in his poor decision making. His claim that it was marital stress is really irrelevant as it does not matter what the source and as we have been reading here about the various court actions that Ryanair are involved in regarding their pilots, whether it is about union recognition, moving to new types or getting sued because of unfair dismissal, all these go some way to causing an atmosphere that is conducive to increasing stress levels beyond what is considered background. As we all know, add in any problem that affects a flight and those stress levels soon start to soar and we don't need those levels elevated in the first place by poor man management.

The questions raised by the Skavsta incident should also focus on why the captain did not think it was worthwhile reporting sick for his flight if he knew he was already stressed and also why the first officer did not think it worthwhile reporting the incident after he realised there was a problem with the captain in the first place. It is possible to associate the reluctance of the top Ryanair management to recognise that the pilots would like to have independent recognition by a union or association of their choice where they know that they would be in a better position to face up to management bullying tactics, one example of which is the memo reproduced here about sick days.

It is one thing to be able to say that your maintenance is some of the best in the business and that the quality is going to be improved with all these new gizmos when in fact there possibly is a problem with the individuals who operate the aircraft because they may have a background stress level that leaves little room for additional stress in order to cope with anything out of the ordinary that may occur in flight. Cutting costs to the bone may get you recognition from the annual bean counters awards but shows many people on here that their staff are considered to more of an expense rather than an asset. There is more to a successful business than high profits if the underlying culture of the company relies on bullying and intimidation of its staff. We all know that the most successful businesses have staff that enjoy working for their employer and will go that extra mile without having to put up with the stress that can cause major problems.

[Idunno]

Ireland has had terrific economic success over the last decade, and very many observers put it down to the implementation of a system of national wage agreements introduced 16 years ago.

That system is renewed every 3 - 5 years, and is up for renewal again now.

The governing party (Fine Fail) have just held their annual party conference, which was addressed by representatives to the major Trade Unions, who told the conference that there would be no renewal of the agreement unless issues surrounding union recognition at work, and workplace standards, were dealt with to their satisfaction.

This is a threat aimed directly at O'Leary.

The Government is due to call an election here within the next 18 months. The flow of events is turning against O'Learys style of bullying management.

I predict further defeats for him in the coming months.

[captplaystation]

arewenearlythereyet, I think you have summed it up very succintly. The IAA unfortunately have only identified the nettle but absolutely won't grab it;wonder why?

[bear11]

I suppose I'll be shot here for pointing out some facts, and God forbid I'd ever be seen as MOL's biggest supporter - but:

1) Idunno - never going to happen. The economy here is based mainly on large multinationals such as Intel who came to Ireland on the specific promise that there would be no union interference in their workings. The unions, in fairness to them, played ball at the time, and in doing so, ensured there would never be compulsory union recognition in Ireland - so they can huff and puff all they like, but it will not be a requirement in Ireland as a result, and MO'L is excercising that right as is his due.

2) arewenearlythereyet? How far will one "stressed" flaky pilot take your case? It may appear to an outsider that banging on about safety isn't working, as all Ryanair have to do is show that everything is being done to the required IAA standard, ie; within EASA standards, FTLs, etc, etc. So, the next level of argument is about levels of stress, which is an ethereal, unmeasurable thing at the best of times. Stress sounds to many laymen as the modern-day equivalent of a "bad back" to get off work, or an excuse for bad work when you're found out - a la Skavsta. Not only is it impossible to measure it, it's also impossible to measure what effect it has on any given individual - and in raising the issue, you're handing a big stick to those people in the business who are in love with things like psychometric profiling. I think stress also falls into the "unsubstantiated crap" category.

I agree with you entirely on one thing - the key to this is the non-reaction and non-reporting by the F/O of a Captain who busted SOPs, and yet flew again immediately after. You can have all the safety regulations in the world, and people will still do stupid things - the real test of safety, however, is that when it is compromised, it is found out and dealt with immediately in order to prevent the problem happening again.

[GGV]

bear11 it looks to me like you have examined the evidence and missed what it is / may be telling you.

1) Your comments to Idunno suggest that you have no idea about the Industrial Relations legislation being used by IALPA, nor about their comprehensive victories in using that legislation - reported here by several people - in both the Industrial and Legal courts. If you are resident in Ireland you cannot have missed the importance currently being given by SIPTU to the exploitation of labour as the underlying reason for its reluctance to enter into a new "partnership" deal (exploitation being the very thing that the act is intended to prevent).

2) You seem to have managed to read the Skavsta report and missed what the investigators were saying about stress. Does you really mean that when management use "stress" (e.g. by the Chief Pilot of Ryanair in the John Goss case) it is somehow real, but when others use it is "flakey"? You seem to happy to write off the stress aspect, just as investigators used to write off the fatigue aspect in accidents and incidents (as not being "provable"). However for some years now investigators have been willing to comment upon fatigue, just as they are increasingly willing to comment upon stress. Yet you seem to think of stress as an excuse.

3) You say that the key to this is the non-reaction and non-reporting by the F/O of a Captain who busted SOPs, and yet flew again immediately after. Lots of people have suggested here what the reason for such behaviour might be. In fact so many have done so that even the odd Aviation Authority might, one day, pay attention.

Why don't you consider that there may be important messages in the very matters that you claim in your post to have no substance? Of one thing I am sure - there is no danger, as you put it, of "being shot for pointing out facts" - mainly because you are actually expressing opinions.

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect Bear, I think you have missed the signifigance of the letter sent to flying staff if their absentee rate exceeds a threshold. I hadn't seen it before

That letter if it is real and not a wind up, is absolutly and positively workplace bullying. For those of you who don't have English as a first language, I will deconstruct:

"Over the past year over 10,000 days have been lost through absenteeism in RYANAIR, which equates to 7 un-crewed aircraft every day, all year around!!!" = This is an attempt at legitimising or justifying the policy that is about to be spelt out on the basis that Ryanair should not have to absorb the costs of crew sickness. You have absolutely no right to be absent from work, despite whatever sick leave provisions you think you have. This is false

"Your attendance record shows that you have been absent from work on X occasions during the last 12 months." = This is an allegation, the crime is being ABSENT, there is no mention of cause, therefore any absence, legitimate or otherwise is an offence

"This high frequency of absence cannot be sustained, as other people within your area have to pick up additional work in your absence." = another attempt at self justification -you have no right to be absent(for any reason),
because you are letting your fellow staff down

"All absences in the future will be closely monitored and, I need to see a dramatic and sustained improvement in your attendance in the months ahead." =We are going to watch you like a hawk now that we have detected your non compliance with our internal rule. If you are absent again you will be punished (thats contained in the phrase "I need to see") - what if he doesn't see????? - its an implied threat

"Please confirm receipt of this letter and measures you will take to eliminate further absence from work. If you have any queries on the above please do not hesitate to contact me." This is an invitation to self incrimination and meek acceptance of the policy. By telling this bloke what "measures" you are going to take, you are agreeing with the company that your absence has been excessive

And of course once you have had one of these letters you had better not get the flu had you?

Furthermore, if there is an accident, this letter will be used as evidence that you had acknowledged you had problems.

Ryanair will simply sit back and primly deny it put any pressure on you to fly - and it didn't did it?

It's a common tactic in large companies - outward compliance with the rules but an internal culture that rewards breaking the rules and punishes anyone that abides by them to the letter.

Are we sure this letter isn't a wind -up?

[delwy]

Nope, Sunfish, it is not a wind-up. It has been posted here before and there is a direct copy (image) of the original on the REPA site. Brillo deconsruction by the way - you got it exactly as we have learned to interpret it. BTW, it is mainly used to get at cabin crew (and it works).

[bear11]

Let's not throw smoke bombs here, lads - I never commented on the Ryanair memo, it strikes me though as an over the top version of what people in other industries have to cope with. It's either legal or it isn't, but still doesn't excuse it, and it amazes me that cabin crew will pay to train for a company when they know they will be treated like this once trained.

GGV, what I was saying earlier is that there is life outside Ryanair, IALPA, and aviation - and anyone familiar with what has happened when the big American companies came to Ireland will back this up. You should educate yourself about the deal which was done between unions here, government and the companies, and if you think that all this will be wound back just to suit IALPA and Ryanair pilots, you have a painful fight ahead. And why throw smoke bombs about SIPTUs annoyance at the exploitation of labour (which is correct), and try and tie it in to Ryanair and ALPA?

Stress (in my opinion, as you rightfully point out) is a flaky argument whoever uses it, apart from being a great excuse if you screw up. And I sincerely hope also the IAA will pay attention to your third point if Ryanair are unwilling or unable to.

[GGV]

why throw smoke bombs about SIPTUs annoyance at the exploitation of labour (which is correct), and try and tie it in to Ryanair and ALPA? There are no smoke bombs. The “tie in” is to be seen in reasons as to why the 2001 Industrial Relations act was created, the firms to which it is applicable (which certainly are not the “quality” multinationals), the criteria for its use AND the quite explicit statements made at the SIPTU conference regarding Irish Ferries and the “race to the bottom”. In fact, the very matter of the potential breakdown of partnership talks has been well discussed in the media over recent days, along with the reasons for the potential breakdown. Did you not pick up what was being discussed? This bears directly on the act that IALPA is using ….. hence the connection between the different matters discussed (and not discussed, such as GAMA, also publicly mentioned in recent days in the same context). So, when you say:
You should educate yourself about ........ …. you might wish to reconsider whether these words might even apply to yourself. You clearly have not heard the rather emphatic union statements and the public position adopted by a certain Mr. B. Ahearn on this delicate matter. ‘Nuff said?

[RogerIrrelevant69]

bear11,

I wouldn't go as far as to say it will never happen as Mr. Ahern's deal-making skills over the last 20 years are legendary on the industrial relations front (long time before he made Taoiseach), the home front (Northern Ireland) and of course the international front. On his track record, the man could quite possibly reconcile the Israelis and the Palestinians given half a chance.

However, cast your mind back 20 or so years when Ireland had industrial relations strife as bad as pre-Thatcher UK and an economy that was officially rated by the UN as "second world" (which was equal to a typical Communist eastern block country at the time, that is very piss poor) and any suggestion of trade unions getting veto like powers over industrial development will more than raise an eye brow or two. What I grew up with in the 70's and 80's was an economy on a downward spiral to bankruptcy. I remember it well. Rightly or wrongly many people attribute some of that malaise to the totally irresponsible behaviour of a minority of radical left wing trade unions. No one will ever vote to going back to those days. No one (and that includes Labour) would dare ask anyone to vote to go back to those days. So my guess would be that existing legislation will probably stay where it is. Sure deals will be done, but I doubt mandatory union recognition will be on the cards.

[VIKING9]

sunfish
Are we sure this letter isn't a wind -up?
I know crew members who have received such drival !

[Runway 31]

The tone and contents of the letter/memo regarding sickness are the norm in most workplaces and I see very little if anything different than worked elsewhere.

[bear11]

Roger, I also remember them only too well. Some of the lunatics are still around in the likes of CIE, the ESB, and An Post. The economy here has changed radically in large part because we were able to attract many large US corporations to set up their European shop here through low corporate taxation, grants, and an educated (and non-unionised) workforce. If you want to see just how big a potential can of worms this issue is, just go to senior management in the likes of Intel or HP in Ireland, say the word "unions", and stand back.

GGV, let’s get to the bottom line here – you can flute around all day in the High Court and push Statutory Instrument 145 of 2000 and the Industrial Relations Amendment Act 2001 as far as you like, and you can have your opinion and I mine on this, but fact remains that there is the small issue of the 1937 Irish Constitution to deal with once the smoke clears. And Ryanair have the bucks and the bloodly-mindedness to drag this all the way to the Supreme Court. For the benefit of those not acquainted with the Irish Constitution, I quote from Michael Halpenny of SIPTU,
“When de Valera framed the 1937 Constitution, he provided in Article 40.6.1 “the right of citizens to form associations and unions.” This article is the bedrock of the Constitutional right of workers to join a trade union. The problem is that while the Constitution giveth, it also taketh away in that although the worker has a fundamental right to be a union member, the Constitution does not compel the employer to recognise the union. This position has been confirmed over time in a succession of legal cases, which, while reasserting the union rights of workers, has supported the right of employers at law not to be compelled to recognise or negotiate with unions, except where they voluntarily agree to do so.”

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Yeep that quote from Mr. Halpenny just about sums it up. You can join the Monster Ravng Loony party for all the difference it will make to some employers.

However, if Ahern needs a deal, he may go after one. Questionable though he needs one at all. If he does need a deal, you can guarantee it won't be allowed to upset the likes of Intel or HP. Time will tell.

[Faire d'income]

Intel and some other multinationals reward their staff for not joining unions. There is no momentum in most of those companies for a union. The staff evidently feel there is no need.

It would appear that is not the case in FR.

[classjazz]

sean1982
Sean,
I come to this post fairly late but going back to your original post - rather than address all of the additional points that have been raised, let me relate my experience with your company.
I retired from my flight deck positin 2 years ago now and now live in southern Europe. I use the low cost airlines quite regularly but will not knowingly use Ryanair again because I do think that their cabin staff leave a lot to be desired.
Last October, I listened to the worst cabin safety briefing that I have ever heard. It was sloppy, out of synch with the spoken commentary and given with no enthusism whatsoever.
This was after I had pointed out to the cabin staff that the seat in front of me would not return to the upright position and yet still was given to a passenger. He spent the whole yourney reclining. My coments were accepted with a shrug of the shoulders. Next I studied the safety card. It was for a different mark of 737 and did not show the correct number of emergency exits.. Again this was brought to the attention of the cabin crew supervisor who looked as me as though I had just landed from the moon.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Faire d'income,

No argument on that one as I know a good number of people who joined Intel who would never and could never leave.

I think the government has to weigh up on the one hand the enormous number of high value jobs the likes of Intel, HP, Microsoft and of course the financial services sector have brought to the Irish economy and on the other hand other industrial relations issues that may exist in other industries.

From a purely financial point of view: who has made the Republic's economy the powerhouse it is today? It's the high value employers. The high value employers don't want the rules to change: whether it's labour rules or corporation tax rules.

Might not be fair for some but that's the way it is.

[GGV]

Bear11, as you say you can have your opinion and I can have mine, but you seem to keep changing the subject when the facts don’t support your opinion. As the coincidence would have it, the very point I made was endorsed the morning after I made my post by front page news. You are now talking about “union recognition” – which is even further removed from the subject. Here again, it is a matter of fact that, (a) union recognition is not an entitlement under Irish law, (b) it cannot be granted under the 2001 Act, and even more significantly, (c) IALPA has repeatedly stated that “union recognition” is NOT an objective.

You have clearly been propagandised by Ryanair who have consistently said that the argument in Dublin IS about “union recognition” or “union recognition by the back door” (which is a much more telling phrase). These claims are just plain wrong. You cannot be granted union recognition in Ireland. You do have the right of association. That’s it.

In fact, to return to the general subject of this tread, I heard somebody from IALPA say something to the effect that the entire dispute is ultimately about “respect” and the entitlement to work in a suitable workplace environment. The fact that such aspirations are considered appropriate and necessary is telling in itself.

[Aloue]

Somehow Ryanair never seems to go away. Latest news seems to involve:

Fatigued pilot
Ryanair Investigation
Demotion of pilot
Sending out of message to all who need to know
Possibility that we are about to witness a major row
An airline that believes that it operates above and beyond .....

Only one question ... can anyone confirm if this story has any substance?

[the grim repa]

yes,it is true.
captain flew 4 sectors as rostered.refused to fly a further 2 sectors because of fatigue and is now demoted to first officer.

[One Step Beyond]

refused to fly a further 2 sectors because of fatigue

Thereby, I assume, acting in accordance with the SOP's. But will the IAA have anything to say?

[Wing Commander Fowler]

....... so he's likely to get more energy now he's an FO??? I doubt it! Bloody hell! :uhoh:

[Sunfish]

I rest my case. Furthermore, I was spending 110 million 1984 OZ dollars on maintenance in 1984. For a comparable size airline, arguably with a mature fleet that included a heavy maintenance operation. This airline is spending 14 million euros a year? What happens when its aircraft age? I do not believe their position is sustainable on a purely financial ( not safety) basis because the company's accounts do not appear to have a provision for the (eventual) heavy maintenance checks.

I would welcome anyone who can correct me on this.

[apaddyinuk]

Sean, if its people having a go at the airline you enjoy working for then get over it. No matter what major airline one works for, whenever their name appears in pprune there are going to be a large number of people intent on shooting them down. You just need to look at postings about Easyjet and BA for example. Mind you, I would beleive whatever you read about QR!!! :}

[08KaQAjQ]

Try to fly with one of these airlines:
Airlines with no fatal event since 1970 (http://www.airsafe.com/events/regions/eu_nofat.htm)

Avoid the airlines with the high rate of accidents:
Fatal events airlines since 1970 (http://www.airsafe.com/events/regions/europe.htm)

[African Tech Rep]

Sunfish - Not so much a correction – but a point / clarification.

The 73NG can be maintained vastly differently to a Classic – as I’m sure you know it’s the Airlines Maintenance Schedule that needs to followed, this being based on the Boeing MPD.

Whereas classic were normally done on a “Blocked Schedule” (A, C, D) the NG is more often done on a “Phased” (parts of C done as time allows – total of say 4 phases = C done) or even IAW with the exact intervals given in the MPD which you can call “Progressive” with a couple of dozen different intervals.

So while at some stage they will be faced with increased costs it is easier to “spread” these costs than it was on a Classic – this of course being dependant on what exactly the MS requires.

Point of interest may be that I understand that Phasing checks works well for new planes – but Blocked is generally better for “older” planes.